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Scott interviews Ramzy Baroud about some articles he wrote recently. The first is about the birth of settlements in the West Bank and Gaza. That leads to a broader discussion about the dynamic within the occupied territories. The second article examines the emerging divide between the Israeli military and Israeli politicians, which Baroud believes has roots as old as Israel itself. They finish with a quick look at the horrific humanitarian situation in Gaza.

Discussed on the show:

• “Sharon Revisited: Netanyahu’s Ultimate Aim in Gaza and Why It Will Fail” (Antiwar.com)
• “The Altalena Affair: Is Israel Heading Towards a Civil War?” (Antiwar.com)

Ramzy Baroud is a US-Arab journalist and is the editor-in-chief of the Palestine Chronicle. He is the author of My Father Was A Freedom Fighter: The Untold Story of Gaza and The Last Earth: A Palestinian Story, These Chains Will Be Broken: Palestinian Stories of Struggle and Defiance in Israeli Prisons, and more. His new book is Our Vision For Liberation. Follow Ramzy on Twitter @RamzyBaroud and read his work at RamzyBaroud.net.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Roberts and Robers Brokerage Incorporated; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; Libertas Bella; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott.

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Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjY

Danny Sjursen explains why staying in Afghanistan, even indefinitely, won’t make any difference in its eventual outcome. Right now the U.S. military is only enforcing the Kabul government’s grip on a small part of the country, and if they leave, either the Taliban will take over the country, or Kabul will hang on to an even smaller sliver. These are the two possible outcomes, says Sjursen, and it doesn’t make a difference if America withdraws today, next year, or in another twenty years. The only difference is how much money our government wastes and how many Americans we have to bury. Elsewhere, Scott and Sjursen also counsel bringing our military home, promoting free trade, and allowing governments that are more directly concerned with problems like terrorism and dictators to take the lead in solving them, instead of thinking that the United States has to be the world’s police force.

Discussed on the show:

• “We’re Listening to the Wrong Voices on Syria” (Antiwar.com Original)
• “General Says It’s Too Early for Pullout as Taliban Signals Agreement Is Near” (National Review)
• “Jim Mattis: Duty, Democracy and the Threat of Tribalism” (WSJ)
• “The U.S. Abandoned Iraq. Don’t Repeat History in Afghanistan” (WSJ)
• “The Destruction of Islamic State is a Strategic Mistake” (BESA Center)
• “The Master of Spin Boldak” (Harper’s Magazine)

Danny Sjursen is a retired U.S. army major and former history instructor at West Point. He writes regularly for TomDispatch.com and he’s the author of “Ghost Riders of Baghdad: Soldiers, Civilians, and the Myth of the Surge.” Follow him on Twitter @SkepticalVet.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; Washinton Babylon; Liberty Under Attack Publications; Listen and Think Audio; TheBumperSticker.com; and LibertyStickers.com.

Donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal, or Bitcoin: 1KGye7S3pk7XXJT6TzrbFephGDbdhYznTa.

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Following is an auto-generated transcript of the episode.

All right, you guys on the line. I’ve got Danny shirts and regular contributor at antiwar dot com, formerly a major in the U. S. Army did combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan during both surges and, uh, very conscientious objector, figuratively, if not literally from the Army. And here’s latest Foer antiwar dot com, which actually originally appeared at Truthdig. But we reprinted Awal along with his original articles for us. We’re listening to the wrong voices on Syria. Welcome back. Danny. How you doing?

Hejaz Ghad. Good to be back. Good to have you here. Let’s talk about Afghanistan first. Uh, I don’t know what the hell was going on. Honestly, the Washington Post says that Donald Trump has given in to Lindsey Graham and that now the withdrawal from Afghanistan is going to be a reduction of troop forces levels back to where they were when he was sworn in, right around 10,000 instead of 15. Bacos, Bibi Nai Gn instead of 16 or whatever Odiz and then. So the Washington Post article seems to imply that the Taliban have agreed to that. But does that sound right to you or what is going on here? Is the deal enough? I’m not in the negotiation rooms, certainly, but come on, Auto. But I cannot imagine the Taliban giving way and allowing us to keep 10,000 troops. I mean, they have all the high cards right now. There, there. You know, I called it in one of my latest articles, Um, a, uh a talking shoot policy. And that was exactly the word they used for the North Vietnamese policy during the peace negotiations. They keep ratcheting up the violence. They would keep changing the facts on the ground in a more positive way for themselves in order to gain leverage at the negotiating table, which is a brilliant strategy as an insurgency. Orazov, the weaker power and the Taliban has done that marvelously. I mean, people are gonna like people who study military like insurgencies are going to study the Taliban because that’s how effective they’ve been. And why in the world would they say, Okay, we’ll agree to peace and let 10,000 American Steak? No way. That’s not gonna happen. There is no chance. But the thing I want to say about if the Lindsay Graeme thing is true, if Trump because Trump wants to get out of Afghanistan, I think he really does. I mean, I think the guy is so inconsistent. But, you know, in The Godfather, you know, I think it’s Ghad father, too, you know, he’s like Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in. Yeah, that’s what the policy in Afghanistan for Trump has been, because every time he, like, lets us think we’re about to get out, and I think he really wants it somebody, whether it’s the Boltons or the grams of the McMasters or the Madisons Air, the dun Kfir Ds of the world, they pulled him right back into a conventional, interventionist, forever war policy. And, you know, I really think it’s true that he thinks this just because he tweeted about it for years before he was elected. I don’t think he actually used the word Afghanistan once during the campaign, but certainly on Twitter. At one point in 2000 and two 12 he took Obama’s side. They hated Barack Obama, born in Kenya, secret Muslim terrorists, that he got elected on the backup. He took Obamas side in telling the general’s toe back off of their pressure, trying to get Obama to extend the deadline for the surge drawdown. And Obama was saying, no. We had a deal 2012 and now it’s 2012 and the generals were saying, No, no, no, Give us a few more years And Trump started tweeting that these generals Awja shut up and back down and do it, the commander in chief says, Because he’s right. We got to get out of there, and he was just so consistent on that But then, as soon as he became president, he was like, Oh, well, jeez, I guess I’ve been told better by my people. And but wait, one more thing was a couple more. You’re right. You got to be right that he wants out of there even still as president. Because even though he did Serge 10,000 in there, he also really, I think, rejected McMaster Madison’s strategy of escalation four more years of fighting and tried to deal with them then which was what McMaster wanted. Instead, he sent Zalmay Khalilzad over there with a mandate clearly with a severe mandate, a Wone that Clio Izzat is taken to heart for, you know, a couple of years now that he should really pursue a deal with the Taliban. I mean, all of that would have fallen apart a long time ago, right? If the president himself had not said no Really? Seriously, I got your back. You work for me. I want this done. You’re the guy to do it. Do it otherwise, just from what I know, reading stupid old Bob Woodword books about administrations and things Special Envoy’s don’t keep Awene voiding if they don’t really know that they work directly for the president and have a real mandate to do those kinds of things. And so here we are in the summer of 2019 and they’re they’re talking about, they have the deal. They’re ready to sign it any day now in all of this kind of stuff. So they’ve seen it through this far. But then, yeah, I guess you can just flip flop right back again. Lindsey Graham says 9 11 will happen again if we leave Danny. Well, I mean, that’s the same old tired arguments from the same old tired old man thinkers. I mean, it’s absolutely insane. It it’s actually Orwell Ian’s with certain extent. Onslow Yugo Orwell Ian uh, news article I saw the other day and I tweeted it out was It’s the headline and it was like the Times or the Post was like a top general says it’s too early to talk about withdrawal for Afghanistan. It’s done for it, right? The chief steps. You had no precipitous withdrawals. I mean, when you use the word too early to describe an 18 year war, that’s an Orwellian. That’s like we’re back in Oceania 1984. It’s not war, it’s too soon. Ayt Enas is early like How don’t we have to be careful with our language? Even? How could you say it’s too early to leave 18 years into a war? It’s a shocking number. The guy, the fact that we have people that are that stuck in the box with those just totally useless ideas that have been discredited for two decades The fact that we still have a guy like that at the top of our military is like, so instructive about why we should never trust generals. Yeah, um, and you know what it’s been the former M and current had a Centcom Dir the previous, I should say, and current head of Centcom and the previous and the current general in charge of the wars. All four of these men have said We’re not leaving. We can’t leave. I don’t care what Trump told you. Forget it. Essentially, they’ve been saying that for months. It makes me wonder if they all have, like, beautiful timeshares there or something like maybe they’re investing in the like in the long term, you know, there’s some really nice mansions in Kabul. I heard Yeah, paid for with drug money. You know, maybe they’re playing the long game. We just don’t know it. I mean, these guys are insane, but, you know, part of it is the military culture, these guys, I mean, I was joking about time shares. Many of these generals have actually spent 456 years in Afghanistan over the course of their careers, rotating in and out because a lot of times general stay longer than a year in top positions. I mean, they don’t know when anything but counterinsurgency or whatever this is. They don’t know anything else. Their careers were built on the war on terror. The entire foundation of their careers is the war on terror. If you pulled the rug out from under them, I’m telling you, these guys, intellectually, culturally, identity wise, they wouldn’t know what to do with themselves. They wouldn’t. I mean that that’s the scary reality of a military that’s been an imperial wars for 20 years. Yeah, well, and here’s the really hard part of this Wone. USA lost this and you can’t spend it otherwise. And, I mean, who believes there really be a peace deal between the Taliban and the current Kabuki government. And who believes that the current Cobban government could even be the Kabul government if America didn’t give him $50 billion a year? Well, yeah, There’s Cem really inconvenient facts and statistics that you know very well from writing the book that bolster argument for its Drollas. You know that the tax base, the budget, right, the annual budget of the Kabul government can’t even support its own defense forces. I mean, it doesn’t have enough money to pay for its cops, and its Air Force and its Armey mean much less any of the rest of the government at all. Yeah, no Jatte. Leaving aside the rial functions of government can’t even sustain its security state. And it’s a military security state, of course, Bayan Naglites nature. I mean the thought I mean, this war would have to literally go on forever in a stalemate with America backing it with whatever 10 20,000 and Air force and then this entire thing. Look, it ends the same way Whether we leave yesterday, in six months or in 60 years, this game ends the same way Kabul falls or it holds onto a sliver of the Northeast. I mean, that’s how this thing ends. That’s it. Well, we’re doing is delaying it, causing more deaths. And, you know, burying a couple of Americans. Every Yeah, well, it’s an important point to that. The Taliban cannot defeat the US any more than the U. S. Cannes defeat the Taliban there. Danny Davis. Wone time explained to me that if every Taliban in the country descended on the Bagram air base, there’s enough firepower in that air base. Thio Tair those guys apart like Verdon in World War One or what have you? They don’t have the air power. They don’t have the ability. They’ll never have the ability to challenge America’s presence at that base as long as the Americans are determined to keep it. But so that just means from the point of view of those generals were talking about great, we don’t have to lose the war, Scott Horns wrong. We lost the war. We don’t have to lose the war as long as we’re holding onto our Wone base and we can do drone attacks and keep the Taliban from March and on Kabul, then we hadn’t lost yet. And hey, Danny just said maybe we could put this off another 20 years. Let’s do that. Then I’ll be somebody else’s fault entirely. These guys are never going to admit defeat. I mean, the dirty secret that you and I know is the war is like you said. It’s it’s already been lost it by Eni, like rational examination of the definition of victory. This thing’s been lost, right? But you’re right. We can maintain an Alamo at Bagram Air Base and create like an air, you know, like a safe zone, like an air safe zone over basically Kabul in the suburbs indefinitely. But is that victory? I mean, four more points. Oo Ramat escaped, wrote this like, you know, supposedly amazing op ed in The Wall Street Journal. I just gave it up, but I just talked to a reporter about yesterday, and I just tore up Mattis, which is one of my favorite things to do because he’s like a sacred cow, and I love to slaughter him. But, you know, look at Mattis. Okay, they put this kind of pedestal, but his career beyond the fact that he’s been wrong about every American intervention for two decades, when you look at his career. If you’re honest, it’s failure. He failed at everything he did. He failed in Iraq. Yeah, he want a tactical victory and Fallujah. But Fallujah was back in the hands of Isis. Years later, he lost in Iraq. He lost repeatedly in Afghanistan. The whole Marghah government in a box thing was a joke. McChrystal lost their Madison, the Marines lost in helmets. It’s a career of failure, and it’s not just Battahs. It’s done for it. And it’s an entire generation of American General David Petraeus, the biggest loser of all Great American fraud. Yeah, the fact that he was right in the Wall Street Journal. Algaze, We can’t leave now. Wait. You said you were gonna bring the Taliban to the table to deal on your terms by July of 12 2007 years ago. He can’t even deputize someone else to write this stupid article. It has to be the guy who lost the war, you know himself is he is his own best poster boy. And the only reason but Petraeus is still a national voice, despite all his discrediting behavior and failures, is because he’s the best PR general since you know I don’t know Raton. I mean I mean, he’s the he’s or MacArthur. The guy sells himself. He’s He’s good with words. He’s fairly articulate. He just says all the wrong words articulately like it. I don’t know why were so impressed with him is a P R scam artist. That’s all the guy is, and the fact that Americans are bought and sold on the whole not just Petraeus, but this worship of the generals I’ve written about it so many times. I’m tired of writing about it. This this is really, really unhealthy in a republic, if that’s what we still are. Oh, yeah, well, And of course, he made it clear many times for years that he wanted to run for president. United States. There was even talk of him challenging Obama and 2012 Andrei, You know, nobody ever minded that he lost two wars. He’s still the world’s greatest general in history. The fact that he lost two wars notwithstanding, it’s not even considered he only only trouble he got in was passing above top secret level secrets. Atto Hose. You’re absolutely right, you know, I think Obama Maidan interesting movie moves highly political, and I was stupid. And the Obama surge was one of the great the masters of his presidency. But you say, like Petraeus had these presidential ambitions, Maybe for 2012. So McChrystal gets himself fired, right? And I thought it was brilliant Move by Obama politically, he takes Petraeus and Des Moz him right from the head of you know, Centcom and says, Hey, Goa down and command the war in Afghanistan. I really need your Dave. The country needs you, which basically gets him stuck in this Meraz where he’s gonna be so busy he’s not going to be able to run for president. You know, I thought was a great and also you’re not. You’re not going to run against me blaming me for not carrying out your policy. I’m putting you in charge. Godfather of coin. Never mind your assistant, McChrystal. You’re now gonna be the one in charge of making this work, and when it doesn’t work, it’s gonna be your fault. Justus Battahs mine and so screw you. Which, you know, Obama should have just fired him in the first place. And the fact that he gave in to these guys in 2009 shows that he is a trump level weakling and vice versa. These guys, if I was the president, I would give a speech where I would say, I don’t care if the general’s murder me. You guys contrite. You can murder me. I got private security, but you could try. But my orders are to end the war. American people decide with your elected president or these generals who want to refuse to leave a war that they already lost to their pathetic, ridiculous shame. You know, and Huu Kyi, seriously, if you’re the president of States, you’re not willing to take a risk to do the right thing. I would I wouldn’t care at all. Saeidi Isa, Senator Man Fawaziah center. I would raise hell until they drown me somewhere. I agree, man. I think the Awene leeway Atto like effectively on these wars and Cem in something he could do it tomorrow with an executive order, basically, but because we don’t declare war anymore. But I mean, I think Trump should go to the people like you said, because yes, the establishment De see Washington military Dustoor Com Blix blah, blah, blah Imedi Abeer Awal gonna keep the war inertia going. So you got to do an end run. You gotta throw a Hail Mary over them, get on national television to stump speeches around the country Goa, Wana, Wilson, Woodrow Wilson type tour of America and appeal to the people and say, Listen, you guys elected me to end these wars. I know from polling and from the pulse of the people that you guys think this is Bullsh. So follow me and I will lead us to peace. If Trump did that, not only would his people rally around him because they rally around him matter what he did, but he put the progressive left right, his alleged opponents in a in a difficult position, right where the grass roots. I mean, you know, Rachel Maddow will flip flop and say that we need to stay in Afghanistan forever. But even though she wrote a book to the opposite effect, But, you know, I think that the progressive grass roots would ultimately have to go along would ultimately have to agree. I mean, maybe they wouldn’t like it, but if he goes to the people, you know, it makes it a lot harder and a less palatable for the generals to pull this Bullsh. You know, it’s not even that, too. It’s also that he because we know how the Democratic Party will react, they’ll react exactly as predicted like a bunch of Hillary Clinton’s, as they have this whole time over Russia, Ge Ayt and whatever, and accused him of selling out the military and selling out America’s interests and being insufficiently patriotic and all this and attack him from the right in the worst way and which had just There’s no way that they can get, you know, they you know, liberals and Democrats. They might be able to get their people to be silent during Obama times on the wars where they’re never gonna turn Democratic voters into a bunch of Dick Cheney’s over. That, And it’s not like the necessarily would take Trump’s side. But they’re not gonna be impressed by a bunch of Democrats running to Trump’s right. And not only that, but there’s like 10 wars going on so he could end a war every couple of months from now until Election Day. He’d be Trump the great would be easy, and, as you said, Congress can’t get in his way. He could end it all by executive order. You know he could do it. Awal Huguette in Afghanistan Get us out of Syria! Get us out of Iraq! Yemen, Afghanize Des Somalia, Libya. Molly Nai Jer! Whatever you’ve got, he could stop arming Ukraine. You could pull our troops out of Lithuania. Yul, be trump. No time imagining like a like a wheel. You know he’s a Caesars showman, right? There should be like a wheel with Awal 15 or 16 of our ground. Mordor 30 of them. Right? And he should spin a wheel once a month on national television. Big game, out of ratings. Yeah, it would be the ultimate reality show. And we’ll be like, Whoa, Neads, Jer, let Kim Jong un’s sleep in the Lincoln bedroom. You know, he was to end one of these wars every few months. I mean, I’m joking about the wheel that if you’d have just ended, it would be really interesting. How would history then cast his legacy? Because it would be even more complicated. I don’t Beber treasonous isolationist Huu destroyed everything and set the stage for the next Hitler. But is that what the historians would say, I mean, the guy with the liberal historians say that I mean, yes, the pundits would say that, But I mean, when his legacy was out later, you know the relatively progressive historians who dominate historical business. Would they give him credit? I don’t know. I think they might. I would have to In the way that they say about Nixon that, well, Nixon was Nixon and everything, but at least he went to China. That kind of dealing Ayt aunt with Russians. Hey, and if only Nixon could go to China said it 1000 times. Maybe only Trumpian Goa to Kabul, Ind. You know Damascus and you name it. Yeah, it’s appears the thing about it, he’s a bad person. And not only that, he’s lazy. And so he doesn’t even he won’t even take the time to figure out who he Neads nearby to help take his side against Lindsay. Graeme, you know? Yeah, Yeah, you’re right. He’s Oh, geez. I don’t know if Lindsey Graham and John Bolton and Mike Pompeo agree about something. Huu, Am I to disagree with that? Because that’s all he’s got. Then something Lynndie Graeme wrong on every foreign policy issue since he’s been in the Senate, as far as I know and the least popular senator in America, too, right? There’s no reason to have to go along with that. And here’s the other irony of back to the whole actual situation that we’re talking about here in Afghanistan, where Lindsey Graham says, No, we can’t leave because if we do datil cause in 9 11 what was occupying the Middle East is what caused 9 11 is not having a lack of troops in Afghanistan was having troops in Saudi Arabia, particularly the U. S. Air force that was being used to bomb and blockade the people of Iraq for a full decade leading up to September 11th is what caused it, then. Secondly, Bin Ladens plan was to make us overreact and to lure us into a long term engagement in Afghanistan that he knew we couldn’t win. And just like a good Leninists, his idea was how many Afghans have to die in the effort? Who cares, because over the long run, the American empire will go bankrupt and be forced to withdraw just like the U. S. A. Help them due to the Soviet Union in the 19 eighties. And so let’s replicate that it’s bin Laden and Zawahiri who want Lindsay Graeme to make Donald Trump stay in Afghanistan. And then there’s the whole joke about Afghanistan being some kind of magic portal toe. Boston Logan Airport Instead of the furthest place you can get from anywhere before you’re headed back the other way again, Serbs Ighlas no man’s land. How the hell the only reason they were able to do September 11th because they recruited German. I mean, Pas Armey, Egyptian graduate students studying in Germany to get into the United States. They didn’t launch the Afghan Air Force that had to hijack our planes to even have a weapon to crash in anything, for God’s sake. Absolutely, I mean, and it’s a really symbiotic relationship between the extremist Al Qaeda Zawahiri kind of thing and the Lanzhu Graeme Ds the world I mean these air, these people are Batha described. We need each other, they need each other. And the crazy thing is Bin Ladens wrote this stuff down and he said it like he wasn’t hiding his plan e mean what he discussed like when he declared war on us enlisted his three reasons. And when he started making statements about drawing the United States into Anu like Soviet style Afghan crusade in the Middle East, he wrote this down. It’s like his Monta camp. Hitler told us that he was gonna do, and then he did it well, Bin Ladens. Hawl Zerihoun do we fell for it like we just went right into his trap. So Bin Ladens dead under, I think very interesting circumstances. We could talk about it some other time, but Bin Ladens debt. But Bin Ladens ideas Wone no question about it. And, you know, And by the way, people always get mad at me when I talk about, you know, the Americans essentially falling for Bin Ladens plan, Um, and that that somehow acquits George Bush and makes him just a fool and not a mass murderer, this kind of thing. But really, what it is is that, you know, bin Laden was not a Taliban cave man from the town of Bedrock out there in Afghanistan. He was a son of a billionaire and had a phD in engineering and was a very worldly and political guy. And he knew that you know he he had essentially a pretty accurate estimate off the empire that he was up against. And he wasn’t just trying to fool innocent Doe I George Bush into doing something foolish. He was trying to give George Bush and excuse a crisis to exploit that he was cynically take advantage of and do the wrong thing. Knowing that what George Bush thinks is good for him in the short term is ultimately bad for the American empire in the long term. And so, in other words, he knew that Bush wanted to get away with blue bloody murder. And so he was providing Bush an excuse to exploit, which makes Bush just a CZ. Much America’s enemy, as Osama bin Laden is doesn’t make him innocent doe eyed fool. It makes him, you know, horrible, blood soaked fool is what it does, you know. And but people always think it’s got to be so black and white and gray, and that if if he’s a fooled and he’s innocent. But no, the plan was, you know, based on the idea of what, uh, cynical and cruel and fake tough guy, he was right. That’s what Bin Ladens son said to Rolling Stone when he saw Bush come in with all of his tough guy posturing that bin Laden was thrilled that Bush had been, You know, that the Supreme Court had given the election of Bushian Aq Igor because here’s a guy Huu will overreact. Here’s a guy who will exploit to the end degree and fall right into the trap. And I think what you just described accurately is the real 9 11 truth. I mean, it’s not about whether Jeff Yul Cannes, you know, Cannes Melt Khel beams. It’s not about that. The real 9 11 truth is what you describe its that symbiotic relationship between the neoconservative military with monsters in America and the Al Qaeda monsters in Afghanistan and throughout the world. Eni. That’s the real 9 11 truth. The real crime isn’t that Oo. The government, you know, stepped in and blew up these buildings on September 11th. Know the rial Truther goes back like you’re describing to, you know, 1979 And you know all the ways that the United States not only enabled bin Laden to exist and become powerful, but also the way that the two sides they just understood each other. I mean, you’re right. Bin Laden knew that Bush was just the right guy. And they are. And you’re right there, equally enemies of the state. They’re equally enemies of the American people. Someone needs to say that in power. And I feel like Trump could like, I hate to keep praising this bad guy, but like not praising Radisson Trump is capable of. He doesn’t get like if he wasn’t so lazy, and if he actually cared, he could go to the American people and be like, let me tell you the story of 9 11 Why this happens. And while we’re gonna make sure this never happens again, how we’re gonna make sure it never happens again And America is gonna not play into these guys hands we’re getting out of the Middle East. I think the American people would buy that. Yeah, of course. Especially now. But, I mean, that’s the whole thing. They had their chance when Ron Paul Raan in 2008 and 2000 12. But now there’s nobody else like that, and I think the best Democrat ain’t going to do it. Even Tulsi Gabbert, Izzat Hawk 2/3 of the time. So you know, the sad thing is that if Tulsi Gabbert is a hawk 2/3 of the time, and you might be right about that, um what hope do we have? Because she’s That means she’s the best out there. I think on foreign policy, I guess her and Bernie. But, like, I mean, neither of them is perfect. You’re right. I mean, we don’t have a Ron Paul, um, out there. And I also think that if we’re gonna have a Ron Paul if we’re gonna have a person who really, really is truly antiwar consistently it I think it has to come from the right because I I just don’t think that the left is the Is Ayn with left more than than you, of course. But I don’t think the left is the party that’s gonna be able to turn these wars on their head and just upend U. S policy. For some reason, I just have this this I have this instinct or this hunch that it has to come from the right. Yeah, well, and not just from the right, cause I think you know, I hate to say it, but Rand. Paul is such a kind of wimpy character with little turtleneck sweater and all of this stuff that I think in that sense he might as well be a Democrat. What we need is, you know, Nixon when people say Nixon ca Gn Goa to China. It’s not just that he was Republican, even though he really was a liberal Republican on domestic policy in a million ways, but he was known as a hard core anti Communist talk. And so that was why it was his, you know, foe tough guy status, Um, from the right that made it. You know, it was the irony of the whole thing that made it doable for him to seek detente with Russia and China. But And so then that’s the same advantage that Donald Trump has to is that he has this whole faux macho posturing about just what a right winger and just what a nationalist Ind. Just what a super patriot he is. And so it would be the irony of the thing. Wow, Wee Donald Trump went to Tae Rond and shook hands with the Ayatollah and said, Let’s work these things out. After Awal Jimmy Carter could only screw up world history for so long. Right? Come on And then, But even with somebody like Rand Paul, I don’t know. I mean Fitr, Bin Rond. It wouldn’t have mattered. He would have just done it no matter what. But with Rand, he’s just to impress. Well, I could see Raan Brolan over just like Obama and Trump Awene Afghanistan or anything else once the pressure was put to him, you know? So, yeah, I mean, who else is there? You say it’s got to come from the right. Who else? We got? Thomas Massey. He’s just in the house, right? Right. Oh, yeah. I’ve actually spoken to his Ah, chief of staff. Once when I was doing work with the defense priorities, I had a 30 is really good. I think he is. Yeah. Is this woman figure Gnehm chooses his chief, I think. And she gave me, like, 30 minutes and just let me Raan basically, which was I mean, I don’t know how much affected had because I think we already had him in our pocket, but, um, she was really amenable. And I mean, his his records pretty good, but yeah, he’s in the House, and he’s a Republican from Kentucky. Does he really have, you know, the potential to be a national figure? I don’t know. They probably wouldn’t let him. You know, that’s the thing. Look how they’re attacking, Tulsi told. He’s not even like you said told Cees, not even as Rond Paulie as we’d like her to be right, but because she says some, you know, seriously anti war things. They’re scared to death of her. It’s amazing, like the amount like this’ll Woman is pulling under 2%. But the attack on her shows that they will make sure Eni anything that even smells of anti interventionism. I mean, they’re gonna make sure that campaign is still born. Yeah, well, you know what? It’s her fault, too, because even never remind the stuff that she’s bad Awene even the stuff that she’s good Awene When they attack her with this Asaad stuff, she is letting them put her on the defensive where it was. It was correct. But she looked weak when she’s pro testing to MSNBC. That cheese, this is all you guys ever asked me about, and it’s getting to be like propaganda, and I’ve already answered this a few times. And that kind of thing, That’s totally the wrong position. Like frustration with them not leaving her alone about it. That’s not the right position. The right position is. Let me tell you something, Lady Asaad is fighting Al Qaeda. Okay? I don’t like Asaad, but I dislike Al Qaeda more. Can you understand that? That Yes. I prefer the Syrian state control the Syrian state instead of a bunch of head chopping suicide bombers. Just like me and my friends fought in Iraq. War too. Okay. And then the stupid lip gloss TV lady has to shut the hell up because she doesn’t know. And she just got told, and so okay. And then you actually have a viral YouTube to pass around now to Tulsi shoves it back down their throat. But instead she always goes Awal. Come on. I was just trying to make peace or something. That in other words, she doesn’t change the presumption of the narrative at all that she’s a bad guy for daring to meet with this bad guy. It’s like they’re pitching Noora, Slobo Awal and she could be knocking it out of the park. But She just won’t. I would, I mean I mean, you’re absolutely right. She should go on the attack. She should go viral. I mean, I think she knows the things you said. I think she even believes the things you said, but she just doesn’t know how to present it. And if she did, you’re right. She’d be like, Hey, guess what, guys? On the left. Uh, you guys don’t like forever war, right? And you don’t like Al Qaeda, so fight him on the right. You guys love Christians, right? Especially christians in the in the Middle East, as rare as they are. Well, guess what? Asaad protects them. He always has and told Id Saddam, right? So I mean, to me, it would be palatable. Sort of like both wings of the people. Like if not the establishment, like yeah, let’s let Asaad the dictator run Syria. He’s not a threat to us. He protects minorities and he fights Al Qaeda doesn’t mean I have to like the guy doesn’t mean I wouldn’t prefer just for the sake of the Syrian people, that there was somebody Huu De do those things that was also a Democrat and small De. But look, that’s not the world. I take the world as it is. That’s what Seoul Ds used to say. I take the world as it is, not as I wish it would be. And seriously, who the hell is the United States of America? Atto? Let anyone be the sovereign leader of anything you know as outside of our jurisdiction, to say Who gets to be the government of Syria or not. I mean, you know, not in reality, America’s Bin overthrowing governments in Syria there since 1946. But I mean, according to the U. S. Constitution and according to the lessons of the last just say, eight years or the last 20. Forget it. There’s you’d be crazy to support an intervention against the Middle Eastern government after all of this. Now I’d like to I’d like to see us go a step further, like I’ve got some radical ideas, like here’s Wone like, let’s let’s let’s to have Trump let him call like a conference like a like a like an anti terror conference, you know, like an alliance or a partnership tacit like invite Putin, invite Com Ain Eni, or at least you know the civilian ruler and say, You know, Asaad, I don’t care who and say, Look, this is This is a broad stroke alliance. We’re not signing entreaties, but hey, like we’re cooperating to destroy Jihadi Islamism in the Middle East. And and we’re all in the same basic team when it comes to this, because we won’t say that because it’s politically unpalatable to be anything pro Hiran or pro Asaad Alpher, Russia. But the reality is that’s already true. We’re fighting the same battle. The problem is America just can’t decide which battle wants the fight. So we fight everybody, right? We’re fighting Iran and Russia over influence were fighting Asaad because he’s Oh, he’s a humanitarian disaster. And you know, we’re fighting everybody plus for fighting Isis. And Oh, by the way, what do we do about the Kurds? And Oh, by the way, what are we gonna do about Turki? The only thing I would add to that is I need to host that conference, get every in the room, walk out the Americans leave and Lakam. The door’s behind them. You guys solve it. We’re going back to North America where we’re from absolutely Russia has way Maur to be concerned about in Central Asia and the Greater Middle East. Way more because guess what? It borders Central Asia. It borders the former Russian republics and Ind borders the Russian Federation, southern republics that are still within the federation, that our majority Muslim and, oh, by the way, the Caucasian or the or the you know, the white population of Russia, the white Russians, they’re actually decreasing because of suicide, alcoholism and bad birth rates. And the Muslim population of Russia is skyrocketing. They are facing a Democrat, a demographic disaster and crisis in their future. Russia is, and should be way more worried about terror in the Middle East. Then we should be across are pretty oceans. Yeah, and we should also recognize that Henry Kissinger doesn’t understand economics, and he knows what’s good for Rockefeller interests. Ah, but this whole oil standard for the dollar and all of this, or American security and dominance in the Gulf necessary to make sure that oil resource is Cannes, continue to get tow our markets and or our allies Markets especially, for example, are Asian allies Huu import oil in great quantities from the regional that that that’s all wrong that Mark Anata Lizza, Ms Stupid and wrong and was debunked in 17 76. We don’t need that at all. We could stay home in North America and we could rely on the fact that no matter who is in power in the Middle East, they have nothing but the incentive to put that oil to market. And if it came Thio, I don’t know what the Russians Huu absolutely don’t have the budget for this. But let’s say they decided they were gonna come and try to dominate the Middle East the way America has tried to all this time. We have nothing to lose whatsoever. I mean, I’d feel bad for the people of the Middle East, but, hey, they wouldn’t be any worse off than under American rule. And but it wouldn’t cost the American people or our economy anything. It might cost Exxon a few jobs and a couple of dividend checks for their stockholders, but that’s not the national interest. That’s a special interest Nots, no reason to stay and have a policy of dominance in someone else’s region. And then, of course, there’s Israel. As you mentioned, we can never even say anything that recognizes the reality that the Iranians are on the opposite side of the terror war, from Al Qaeda and on the same side of it as us. And because if you listen to not just the Israelis, but just read the national Review that the Iranians are jihadists. What are you talking about, Danny? Shoah, Ersin. Same difference. And by the way, didn’t we tell you that Iran has been in league with Al Qaeda all along? Yeah, Yeah, why not? Right, And that’s all. Of course, all the evidence points in the opposite direction, right about Iran and Al Qaeda and that you know that that alliances is is as fake as the Saddam Al Qaeda alliance. And you know, it’s interesting about Israel in Syria and e I wrote this in my latest article on Syria. Israel, like major pundits and former like generals and defense secretaries of defense ministers in Israel, have gone on the record during the Syrian civil war and said, If the choice is between Iran and the Islamic state, I choose the Islamic state. That was Wone quote and the other quote, which was like to me, even um even more shocking was like an op ed. That was Rove was actually more like a policy analyst. But it was public. And the headline was, um, the destruction of the Islamic state is strategic mistake. And Israeli former government minister, allied with the Netanyahu government, wrote that I mean Israel would rather back jihadism in Syria so that they could fracture cereal right and weaken it. Ah, then have Iran have any influence there, which is already has. I mean, it’s incredible. Just Israel. If it was all about ideology, it was all about Hey, Islamists are barbarians and they’re coming for Israel and they’re gonna bomb our people on buses. If it was all about that, then there’s no greater ideological and physical threat to Israel than Isis or Al Qaeda. And yet they’re more concerned about Iran, and it’s it’s staggering. It is staggeringly, it’s absurd, and it’s it makes no logical sense unless you realize what Israel is really about is none of the above. And they are really about dominance and major, you know, regional, sort of geopolitics and realpolitik. They’re not really they’re not really worried about the things they say. They’re worried about? Hang on just one second. Hey, guys, ever tell you about liberty stickers dot com? It’s just nothing but anti government propaganda for the back of your truck. I invented most of them the good ones, anyway. Anti war stuff. Anti cops making fun of all the candidates in the upcoming election. Liberty stickers dot com Hey, guys, check out the great lineup of podcasts we’ve got going on over at the Libertarian Institute. There’s me foreign policy and focused with Call Anzalone Freeman Beyond the wall with Peak, Winona’s a k a. Mansoor Aidar, the Liberty Weekly podcast with Patrick Macfarlane and Keith Night and our newest addition Gender Libertarian with Jen Monroe. Check them all out at Libertarian Institute Dot or Ge. Hey, guys, don’t think it be cool if you could go to college, but Tom Woods was the dean of the thing. Yeah, well, something like that. Check out liberty classroom dot com where Tom Woods went and had his pick of all the best professors to teach their courses in, uh, the real history and economics that you didn’t learn when you went to college the first time around her maybe didn’t learn because you skipped your higher education altogether. But, ah, here’s Cem Riel, American history and Cem. Real economics, the kind of stuff that you’ve been missing. Its Awal liberty classroom dot com and make sure to click through the link in the right hand margin of my website Gheit scott horton dot Aurdic. Hey, man, listen. Ah, as long as we’re on it, let me go ahead and play this clip. It’s Michael Oren. Just a couple of months after he had left his position as Israeli ambassador to the United States but used half a year later something. But it’s the end of June 2014. In other words, just two weeks after the Islamic state invaded western Iraq from eastern Syria, sacked Mosul and just I guess it would be one week then, since Abu Baqer Awal Baghdad E stood up on the balcony and declared himself the Caliph Ibrahim, leader of the Islamic caliphate there. And ah, there was the Aspen Ideas Festival, and Michael Oren set up on a stage with, of course, Com Ishtar Goldberg of the editor in chief of the Atlantic and Israel’s enforcer in the American media here. And Oren explains why he prefers the Sunni side to the Shia and you’ll see that he makes explicit references not to some mythical moderate groups as deniability but to the Islamic state. Check it out. And what I’m gonna say is harsh, perhaps a little edgy. But if we have to choose the lesser of evils here, the lesser evil is the Sunnis over the shit for the reason Ons before may. Okay, it’s a lesser evil. It’s an evil, believe me is terribly again. They’ve just taken out 1700 former Iraqi soldiers and shot them in the field. But who are they? Who are they fighting against? The fighting? Must the people against the A proxy with Iran? That’s complicity in the murder of 160,000 people in Syria. You just do the math. And again one side is armed with suicide bombers and rocks. The other side has access to military nuclear capabilities. So from Israel’s perspective, um, you know, if someone’s gotta, if there’s gonna be an evil that’s gonna prevail, you know, let let the Sony Evil prevail again. I’m speaking entirely for myself, as if he just said from Israel’s perspective, meaning the perspective of the Netanyahu government. And again he makes an explicit reference toe Isis massacring 1700 Iraqi Shia Air Force cadets at Camp Speicher. Jer. So we know he’s talking about Baghdad E. And the worst of the worst of the worst than Al Qaeda guys. The Al Qaeda in Iraq. Sharqawi successors who had then at that point seized all of Western Syria and west eastern Syria and western Iraq and created their own Islamofascist caliphate straight out of Zionist propaganda from just a few years before that could have never existed in the world if not for America’s policies for Israel in Iraq and Syria. And then here he’s just. And then what’s his excuse, Danny? That Asaad is responsible for every single death in the Syrian war when he’s fighting against a bunch of Foer Ind back mercenaries in the first place. But then, secondly, that Iran has military nuclear technology that they could transfer what to Asaad and Hezbollah, which is just completely ridiculous. Azeis think Danny Shia person has secret military nuclear technology. It’s just not true. The whole thing is not saying, you know, it leaves you. It really leads one to Cem conspiratorial thinking because Israel’s goals and interests as he just laid them out are totally at odds with American Ind supposed goals and interests. Like we do not have people always like Oh, they’re the only democracy in the Middle East. Like we would be shared cultural values. They just mean white skin. But the thing is, and the Natta Awal white skin. But the thing is that our biggest threat purportedly right. What we say ostensibly is the biggest threat to America is transnational jihadism, right, transnational terror. Okay, well, which side is Maur? Uh, you know, has more proclivity to international terrorism. The Sunni jihadist under the banner of Al Qaeda and Isis. When was the last time on an Iranian? Shia Huu Oorah, Shia. Anybody hopped on a plane, came to the United States and blow up a building. You name the time. You can’t. You can’t. Iran has presented no transnational threat to the United States for decades. It never did. There are no shit Shias, suicide bombers in America. I’m not saying they didn’t exist in Lebanon. I’m not saying they didn’t fight the Israelis with those tactics. I’m not saying it didn’t Goa Awene. Obviously they killed our Marines in Lebanon. Of course, Armey Areen shouldn’t have been there in the first place. But this ludicrous Israel and United States are literally at complete odds strategically and yet we’re like dragged along by the three B’s. You know, I called the three bees that are dragging US policy law. Vanja Minh Netanyahu B B, M B s over in Saudi Arabia, Naem vz over in United. I remember. It’s even though he’s a junior partner. The three bees are like pulling American policy, and it makes no strategic sense. But you know what? The United States are pausing. The Middle East has never That’s the dirty secret. It has never actually been driven bye rationality or strategic sense or concerns about our homeland. It’s never been about that, which is why I get into this sort of conspiratorial thinking because there’s no way around it. Well, look, you know what the best advice a guy in my cab ever gave me was, You know what, kid? Everything you say is right. It set. It Ain conspiracy. It’s just politics. That’s what it is. Politics is just the fight over who controls who controls the resource is That’s all it is, man. And so you know, in other words, there is no national interest. There’s just the individual interests of the people with power. And you know what’s good for them in their short term, you know, just like the public choice theory. Kind of a deal. Special interests is what Ross Perot Yushie Hib Wone. What does that mean? That means Yahia squeaky wheel gets the grease. And so, if the other 300 million Americans have to suffer at the result as a result of whatever policy favours Cem tiny number of them Oh, well, that’s, you know, the name of the game. That’s how it was splayed. So of course you know people who put Israel first. They’re gonna do everything they can to support Israel’s interests. And if you don’t like it, you’re supposed to play the game harder and better, That’s all. And if Trump is truly the man of the people, I mean again, we’re going back to this. Go to the people. Trump could easily be like, Hey, white ethnics fromthe rust belt who have been struggling economically and feel like you’re culturally being taken over like I don’t buy that theory. But that’s their theory, right? Hey, could say, Hey, rust belt, you know, lower middle class working folks. Guess what? The wars in the Middle East. They don’t help you. They hurt you. The only people who are helps are the people who already have money. Money begets money. So it’s the Israel lobby and it’s the arms industry. Goa to the people and say, Listen, rust belt, Listen, you know Detroit, you know, White Flight society, like these wars do not help you. They help your bosses. They help the people who put you in this predicament in the first place. When that you know, e Gn that’s That’s the Ansar like whether you agree with Trump and those sort of like white Rust Belt narrative, which I think is flawed, use it right, use it because those people are with him there with him. They’re like, Yeah, this is Bullsh. What are we doing? No one’s making any money off this except Exxon and Honeywell. And you know Ayt Paddar because that’s you right? It’s special interest. It’s not that it’s not the America. There is no such thing. You’re right. There is no such thing as the American interest. You know, everyone talks about even I get sold into, You know, I get. I find myself using the phrase and it’s silly. I shouldn’t have to be more careful with my language, right with my vernacular. But the reality is, there is no, you know, there. There is no such thing as the American interest that just doesn’t exist. One could argue. It really never have. Well, the thing of it is, if you’re powerless, a person like you were me, then you can imagine what it would be like to try to do what’s best for the country as a whole. It’s just that the economics of politics, as Obi Wan Kenobi calls him, preclude that kind of thinking. Essentially, all the incentives are built in separate in different ways, where most of everything has to do with keeping your lip buttoned up so you can try to move up so that maybe someday, when you’re 63 you know, someone close to the president will listen to you say one thing one time, or where this is crazy incentives in the way that powers divvy it up in the way that people play into that system. I’m sure you’ve read Daniel Ellsberg’s book Secrets. And I know you know from your own experience in the Army all this time is Officer and everything over There. But Ind Ellsberg Ds Book Secrets He goes, Look, the Gulf of Tonkin was a crazy conspiracy theory that wasn’t taken seriously and very few people believed. And the secret was kept by approximately 40,000 people until I Leat the Pentagon papers in 1971. After it was way too late. Seven years later, you know, and, ah, 40,000 people were willing to go along with that because what was the opposite of that going to prison? Um, discrediting their boss and all their co workers who are all gonna have to suffer for the scandal of them telling the truth and all of these things. And so the national interest. What’s good for the people of Kansas in the war in Vietnam? It just doesn’t play into it certainly couldn’t override the individual interests of the end of the people in power that we would be counting on to provide that check and balance all of their business requires that they go along rather than stand up. You’re absolutely right. I mean, Ellsberg is the closest thing we had to the American Injun Arest. I mean, if if if special interests were keeping the warfare state going, you know, Ellsberg was the closest thing people like him. Two blowing the whole, you know, blowing the whistle on the whole thing and saying Well below, I’m here to speak for the American people as their proxy because I’ve got Cem insider knowledge. And the reality is this is good for Cannes. This is not good for Detroit. It’s not good for Southeast Wisconsin, right? You know, and and even according to him, he was 10 years late. Oh, of course he waas And I think, and I think he sort of I mean, I think I’ve heard him express regret that he didn’t turn sooner. You know, publicly. In fact, I’m afraid to say that the way he’s talked about on the show, he still does not forgive himself for waiting as long as he did. Yeah, and I don’t either. I mean, I’m not as an important figure, but like the great regret, the great shame in my life is the amount of times that I re upped, You know that I decided to stay on longer because I either convinced myself that, Yeah, I’m one of the good ones, and I’m gonna fix the system from the inside. Or when I was really being honest with myself. I really like socialized health care that I have, and I really like that I keep getting promoted and, like, I make about $100,000 a year serving the empire. And I can’t do that in the outside world is easily I mean, that’s my great shame and regret, and I’ve expressed it in articles, you know, that’s like you throw the Mea Khaled out there. I’m not as important as Ellsberg, but I understand the center because I feel it myself. Yeah, well, yeah. I mean, Ellsberg, Nas, Ellsberg. But you’re pretty damn important. Um, you know, your voice really resonates because, as I said in the introduction, you know, who are you to judge? You were there. You lost your guys in these fights and could see you know, your your previous article before the Syria Wone here is stop pretending. Washington and Kabul never really controlled rural Afghanistan. And you’re a team leader out there in the Kandahar province, right? Yeah. And I and I threw a personal vignette in there because I think the readers kind of responded that sometimes better than my more like esoteric, you know, evidence based analysis. I mean, look, I tried my artist in charge of 120 you know, conventional US scouts, working together with the Special Forces a team. And I raised the goddamn militia. I was the first conventional unit to do what the special forces were doing. I was literally the first Wone Ind Khair Jowhar problems ever. I mean, like generals. I mean, I can’t tell you how many generals came to visit like Cannes Three star to start every week of general come down because they want to see what I was doing. They all like this is the laboratory for victory. Like what you’re doing down here is the model Danny, like, I’ve got so much accolades for it. And the reason I told the story about how it was ultimately a failure because I think it’s important. And I knew, and that’s what I said in the article. Eissa, listen, I knew at the time that raising this militia while it might in the short term, help protect my soldiers by putting like someone in front of the enemy that keeps them further from my base because we were under siege up till then. So, yeah, it worked for a year. It got my guys out of Dodge. Most of them right, most of them and most of their limbs. Not all of them and not all of their limbs. But I knew I wasn’t stupid. I said, unlike my peers, I didn’t buy it. I knew what I was doing. I knew that it wasn’t gonna work. But I didn’t care because I was trying to get the hell out of Dodge with his many of my guys and their legs as I could. Yeah, well, And from the general’s point of view, we’ll talk about that. What is what it’s like to be a general with a base out there to be a general with the major like you out there in the politics and the incentives from their point of view, because you want to talk about no one better. These are the guys who know better. Yeah, were they should, but you know, the problem is with the military promotion system, like the thing that is most valued Okay, Ind promotion. The thing that is most positively reinforced in promotion and success is not, um, measurable outcomes. It’s PR. What I mean is a can do attitude, positive thinking and and shining up a turd and showing it to a general is how you get accolades. You might if you were to read my evaluation, my officer evaluation report my report card for Afghanistan. It’s glowing. It’s glowing. You would think I won the war in Kandahar province. I mean, if you read it, you’d be like, Wow, this guy’s a big deal. I was nothing. I failed. All I did was was briefly, briefly lower violence against my troops. All I did was put a you know, a Gn Afghanize in front of my problem. I didn’t solve the problems of Cannes Dahr province. I solved the problems of B Troop, Fourth Squadron, fourth Calvary, first Brigade, Firster Aamer, Ge Division. That’s the only problems I saw was my own. I didn’t fix anything. I didn’t win the war. But these generals, they come down. The thing is, I was able to present it to them. Is this great success, right? Because I had the Statistics that we keep that show like well, see, look. Attacks on my base or down. And so they come visit because A They love to glad hand with soldiers. It makes them feel like fighting generals like George Patton. I mean, Id Wone General used to keep up. This is true. He became a four star in Iraq, and he used to come visit troops and used to keep a baseball bat tucked into the back of his, uh, his body armor. Like like Leonardo from the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. You know, You know, Patton had his pearl handled pistol. General Thurman. That was his name used forthe Amadou Division Commander Time. He used to roll around with his baseball bat like I’m a bad ass General Hama Seoul Jer Hsien or I’m gonna come see what the boys were doing. I’m gonna shake hands with them, and I’m gonna talk shop. And I made him a cigarette with them, you know? And it’s like they come down and when they’re real job should be. Wait, let’s think of this like can this be done. Is this long term? Is there any real solutions? Instead of that, they, like, just come down and they like Logar. You and they shake hands with your troops. They pin a few medals on Cem kids and they fly away in their helicopter. These generals who were lauding me who were saying that my province and my troupe was the the laboratory for Victory. And we had to expand this Maale P militia program all over the country. They would spend about 30 minutes with May. They never went on a dangerous patrol. Every once in a while we take him on these like staged foot patrols because the general’s aide would call me the night before right and say, Oh, General Seoul Ons. So General Higgins from the 82nd Airborne is coming down, right? That’s a real guy. And he wants to go on a patrol. He’s gonna have a photographer with him. There’s a picture of me in him actually online in the few Googled Mea Nai Goa images. And, um, but like the Aideed also says like, but he doesn’t want to die like they don’t like, take him on a patrol where you might get shot. Um, so I would literally, like stage a patrol route through, like, the safe part of, like, my area, like, right outside the base. And it was literally a photo op. I mean, this is and I know he would come for 30 minutes. He’d spend you know, you come 45 minutes, spent 15 minutes putting Awene medals, saying nice things to me and shaking hands. My soldiers and you spend 30 minutes walking on a patrol with a rifle like he’s a real soldier, you know? And then you get his helicopter and fly back to Kabul or to Kandahar airfield. Yes. See, this is again. Why is so important? Nobody else can really attack these guys. Accept an officer like you who’s been there in that kind of way. Otherwise, anybody else would just be ignored or shamed right out of talking. But I remember back in the 19 nineties listening to Colonel David Hackworth on the radio, and he hated every other officer. You know, his job essentially. And he was a colonel in Vietnam, of course, but the most decorated officer in the Vietnam War, and but essentially his job was to fight for the enlisted men against the government, meaning the Pentagon, the officers, the real military, as opposed to the American people. The Infantry, You know, the the enlisted men. And and he hated them. I remember he used to just ridicule Wesley Clark and call him the Perfumed Prince, which, you know, if he had lived to ah which he died of Agent Blue bladder cancer, By the way, um, but if he had lived what he would have had to say about David Petraeus and the rest of these Kukes up there like you’re talking about this guy strutting around and and essentially pretend acting a part like they’re in some movie when what they’re really doing is getting their men, as they put it there, men killed over nothing there Boyz killed over a bunch of garbage. And even when they know better and everybody knows that, they know better could. And this is where I wanted to bring up Karl Eikenberry here who was, you know, the ambassador for time. But previously he had been the general in charge of the war, and he finally said, This is crazy. We should leave. We should not do the surge. We should get out instead. And that goes to show and really prove what you’re talking about with the rest of these generals that day. At least should know better if Eikenberry Kabbi as good as he was, which he was pretty late in terms of when he came forward. But still, um Lif Eikenberry Condolezza Gn Any of these guys could have done it. Any of these guys could do it right now. And Oo and I wanted to mention to this guy it was in the Washington Post. It was a member of Obama’s National Security Council. I’m pretty sure who said we have to take this deal because I think the way he put it was if we had taken the deal five years ago, it would have been better 10 years ago would have been even better in that five years before that. It would have been even better than that. If we do it five years from now, it’s gonna be even worse. Whatever we can get now is as good as we’re ever gonna get. Guys. Now that is Cem. Pretty damn pessimistic words in The Washington Post from a guy from the previous administration whose team helped tow lose this war, saying, hey, fessed up, face up to it. There’s no point in keeping going because we just can’t pull it off. And so, man, what a horrible truth for the rest of these people to be so obstinate against and refused to concede. I mean, I want to hear Is that to the Infantry? Get out there and be the last man to die for. Natta Ms. Take something that everybody knows is a fraud. And and that’s the That’s the thing about Trump. Like he could do that too. He could say Not only is it not good for you in the rush, but hey, I love the soldiers. I love the veterans. Hey, you! Hey, Infantry men with a bunch of tattoos, you know who has a high school education and very few prospects Minh gets out of the military. Hey, Infantry Menagh Gnehm Areen. This war is not good for you. I’m gonna get you out of it. I’m gonna get you out of this nonsense. Because these wars the generals make careers on him. But you just you’re in the mud and you lose your Badi, you know, And look at Ikenberry. Look what happened. This is instructive. When Eikenberry turned late as it was, but it’s never too late. When Eikenberry turns he was Hillah read by his former comrades. He was persona non grata. He was blackballed. I know this because I know generals. They currently generals. I can’t use their names on active duty. Huu have told me that he was blackballed socially by Awal his former professional mates. When he said no to the surge, the war is all the other generals turned on him. That’s instructive to me. And I tell one other story actually going. But I’m kind of going back. But, like, I think that you and the listeners will find this a little interesting. So I told you that the generals would come down and they would do these like Markoe trolls. Well, one time I told you, we had to make sure they don’t get shot at one time. It didn’t work. Sony just briefly tell you this story. I think it’s also instructive about how fake this is and about how these generals are frauds. Um, the con man. Really? We had built this little market. Actually, I had paid Cem Afghan contractors to build this little market, but in this really dangerous spot. And I told the ball and Oh, by the way, when you pay the contractors, they kicked back to the Taliban. So I’m actually funding the Taliban by doing this. And I knew that I told my boss. So I told my boss this colonel who wanted to be a general, which means he doesn’t care about US troops. I said, Hey, this is not a good place to put a mark. It was like no one’s ever gonna actually go there because it’s so dangerous. And like, this is a step too far like we’re a step too far away from the base like this isn’t gonna work. He was like, No, no, no. We’re gonna build a school here. We’ll build this market. It’s gonna be thriving with your new LP militia program. Yul Beito protected. I was like, Not not really So we built the structure of the superstructure of this market, right? And and we, like, literally paid and cajoled a few Afghanize bring some stuff in there, make it look a little bit like a market and then the assistant division commander of the 82nd Airborne St Clair Huu. Eventually, by the way, leaves the military under, uh, uh, nefarious circumstances because he likes sleeps with his aide or something. Right. But anyway, St Clair comes to visit me, right? And he’s a big deal. He’s of Wone stories a climb Aires in the 82nd Airborne. And I’m told by my colonel like, Oh, like you need to take the general. He’s coming tomorrow. We need to take him on a walk through the market, you know, and like, we’ll take him on a stage patrol. And I said, sir, to my colonel, who is a sociopath, Andrei still hate to the stake not gonna use his name, but I kind of want to. Anyway, he, um I said, sir, this is bad. We’re gonna like there’s a good chance we’ll get attacked like there’s a good chance Cem will die tomorrow. Like this is not good. This is not the typical patrol that we do Like I’m telling you, I know the ground. You visit it every once in a while. I lived there. Some bad is gonna happen. He’s like, No, no, No, no. It’s going to be safe. It’s your job to make sure it’s safe. I said Okay. The enemy gets a vote. Sir, I literally said that hung up the phone the next morning. Wone this little patrol, we come under RPG and machine gun fire. And I have never seen a general hit the deck and jump into a canal and get himself wet and dirty so fast. And thank God none of my soldiers were hit. It was a brief firefight, but it was dicey and it could’ve went the other way. General goes home in this helicopter De still Logar me still says nice things. You could see that he was shaken. Hey, we were all shaken. I mean, for me, it was every day for him was like once a year. But when I got home okay. When I got back to my base that night my colonel calls me Guess what happened? I got Lif I got lit up. I got yelled at because I left the Taliban attack. I got yelled at for what the Taliban did. I said this is a fraud. You don’t want to win this war. If you wanted to win this war. You will see what I told you. And I got in trouble because it didn’t look good that the enemy got a vote. I’m like, Should I have called the Taliban up ahead of time? I should have. I should have made deals with Taliban. I swear to God, I should I should have been in such a relation to the Taliban that I should have paid them a few $100,000 Id sacks full of money. Literally. I should have taken it home. And you’re paying taxes anyway. Like you said Sidon, I should I should have met with the local Taleb Itta Bin like Hey, what’s up, dude? Tomorrow I’m taking this journal around like we want with you for like, the next month. Just like don’t shoot us tomorrow. I should have done that because I got yelled at for not giving it. Essentially Nots would have done that. They would have fired me if they found out right and all that. But the reality is that’s what they wanted. They wanted to save patrol. Well, I can’t make a patrol, Safed unless I bring the Taliban in on the deal. Duaa Ayuz. It was insane, But it’s true. Yep. Well, you know, I only found out after I published my book that there’s an entire book that was written by a guy who was in charge of this stuff over there, where that’s exactly what they did was pay protection money to the Taliban and and the Taliban would even provide the security, driving the truck in front and back of the convoys of of gasoline and other materials that American soldiers needed in the surge and paying the millions and millions and millions of dollars in taxes for their protection in order to fight the war against them. And they just spend all that money buying guns that we gave the Afghan National Army on the black market and use them against our guys and just goes on and on. In fact, the best story here was Ehren Rostam, the guy that wrote the book on Chalabi had a piece in The Huffington Post about how there was a guy who had his own little Afghan Blackwater mercenary group, and he would contract with the Taliban to provide protection. Service is for the convoys, and he was the son off the Afghan defense minister at the time and even opened up a lobbying firm on K Street in Washington to help lobby for the surgeon the extension of the war. There’s so many stories like that. I mean, I was just thinking as I was telling you, that story like, Why have I never written these stories down like I need to? I need to write Nizza right Like a short book. That’s just a series of vignettes that are instructive. Awene How absurd. The wars. I mean, did the word Observateur Beehner title somewhere? You know, we’re Cem. It could be like your American history Fleischers diggers, Siri’s. You could do a Siri’s where it’s just goofy. That happened meter the war, you know? You know, I’ll talk to Eric, you know, maybe I’ll start publishing those, like, maybe I’ll do like an extra article. Amman, Kfir, Eni war. Where I do exactly as I know that you guys would totally support that. No. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, I’m glad we had this conversation, but I’m gonna do it, You know? I haven’t told you. I mean, the only time I’ve ever told these stories is like, over like too many beers with, like my buddies who were there with me. Like I think the people need to know. I bet you could write a great ah, Catch 22 type novel there, you know? Absolutely. I lived Catch 22. You know what I’m describing is very touched. 22 isn’t it? Like channels coming down, going on fake patrols. One day it goes bad. I get yelled at because the Taliban decided to be the Taliban. Like, you know, it’s insane. I mean, the whole thing is insane and what you’re talking about with, like, the money and the corruption. Like look at Ahmed Wali Karzai, right? The half brother of Hamid Karzai. He runs Kandahari like a narco state. I mean, the guy is the most corrupt dude. He’s got ties to the Taliban. He’s got ties to the drug dealers. Right? And this is this is the government we’re backing, He said, half brother of the president Holo. Yeah, The president puts his brother who was a known criminal before the war. He’s long been like a criminal with nefarious ties to drugs in the Taliban. And, like we throw that guy down there and He runs Cannes hard like a private fife Khadom and just uses American troops to prop himself up. We were in charge. He was in charge. Well, when the Taliban killed him, they were placed him with Abdul Razek, who was also a heroin dealer and became the most powerful Ayn Hardin Cannes Dahr Huu. I have met, talk to walked on patrols with and he’s the guy. He’s the guy who finally got shot and killed when the Taliban assassin tried to kill the American General there. That time there was that fire fight in that closed room. That’s just the year Lior, whenever, like Rozic was, was it was a known war criminal. He got put in charge of the Taliban. Peled. I mean, the might as well be he got put in charge of the Afghan National Police in Cannes are in charge of the whole thing. While I was there and I met him, I was at the ceremony where you got promoted, whatever, and I walked out a few patrols. Then he’s a He’s a scary dude like he is a real He’s a badass like Dombey. Wrong. He’s a monster, but he’s a bad ass like when you talk to him. He is not scared of Yukos. Yaron American. He talks down to you because he’s older than you. And it wasn’t even old. But he’s older than me. He talks down to American lieutenants and captains and majors like he thinks he’s the because he is. And the thing is, he was a known war criminal already. Okay, I showed my Colonel an article in Harper’s from like 2009. Okay, an expose on Rajoy. You can look it up by Matthew Ayt Kims, right? Right. About how we executed all those, um not only Taliban, but also civilians, like in a ditch like years before. Well, two years later, I find out Rajoy Ds coming in to be in charge and everyone’s all excited cause he had a reputation as a Taliban ass kicker. Right? Which was somewhat true, and I showed my boss, who didn’t give a shit, could barely read and couldn’t spell Afghanistan’s look at this article from Harper’s. Like we got a war criminal coming in using what else concerns And I was literally told like Copt Danny, why you such a troublemaker? I mean, that literally I was like, This is a public notice. This isn’t Harper’s. And we knew we had a war criminal coming in. And guess what he did when it came to Kandahar, committed more war crimes and also worked with the Taliban. So, yeah, he’s a Taliban ass kicker who also runs drugs which fuels the Taliban. It’s really a beautiful system. I mean the absurdity of it. It’s almost like trying to fight against the system like I was in my limited way. It becomes Kafka. Ask. Yeah, there’s no other term Foer. Well, I think that’s too Int. You know, we’re talking about how there’s no national interest when it comes to these policies in the macro sense. I mean, here you are in Kandahar province saying, Listen, here’s what’s good for the war effort. Sorry, It contradicts what’s good for your career at this moment, however, and dare Ansar is Shut up, Shearson, you’re getting in the way of what we’re doing, which is their eye is not on the ball, their eyes on their own. And so there’s the economics of politics, even at the micro level. You know, the major gives sound advice to the Colonel The colonel says, get the hell away from me. I don’t want it on the record that you told me that you knew better. Something I gotta I gotta run here in a bit, you know? But this has been a great conversation. I want I want, if that’s okay, but I want to tell them or story about how this is really more about promotion for these guys than it is about the war effort. Same guy, Same Colonel thing was Lieutenant Colonel Katonah. He was a monster. Um, I hope he’s listening. He’s not. He doesn’t. He doesn’t read. So anyway, Ah, he says he wants to go on a patrol. This really Justin outpost that I had established that got attacked every day. It was literally like a sandbag. Alem Oo And I was like, I didn’t even want to establish the place. I wanted to give it up because it was all it was was a death trap for my guys didn’t actually providing security. But whatever I had to keep because he said, Keep it. He’s like, I wanna walk there. I was like, Sir, we gotta take a helicopter like that’s the most dangerous walking Cannes, Nawar Province. Like I’ve never done that patrol with helping attack 3 to 5 times. He was like, No, we’re doing it. We’re doing it tomorrow. I want to go see the soldiers out there, and it’s like, Oh, you’re such a hero. Okay, well, here’s the deal, sir. If you insist, we must leave before dawn because the Taliban doesn’t like to fight at night. They don’t like to get up early there. The laziest fighters ever. Um, we have to leave it like 4:50 a.m. We might get there without a fire fight. On the way back, we are gonna be attacked. So I recommend the helicopter. But if you insist, we have to leave before dawn. He says, Danny, you know my battle rhythm. I go to the gym in the morning. I go to the gym every morning at seven. The soldiers expect to see me in the gym on my little big Safed base. And if I’m not there in the gym, they’re gonna think that their boss doesn’t work out with them. So we have to leave it. Nai Gn. That’s the earliest I can get here. I said, sir, we leave it? Nai Gn Cem was gonna die, Andrei. Luckily, no one did, But it was close thing, and a lot of people got hurt on he goes, uh, Danny, let me give you some advice, and I said, Oh, great. Sage advice from the socio Katha goes Quote Danny, in this business, Kice Lower caters to hire. We’re leaving at 9 a.m. tomorrow. Massive firefight. Massive firefight Within sight of my base, we couldn’t get 600 meters away from my base before we came under massive RPG and machine gun fire. I was hiding behind a rock pile with him, which was the only cover we could find. And I remember looking in his eyes and he was so Shia Paso he wasn’t even scared. He’s one of these guys that you just know about. It’s never gonna touch him. And he knows the Boalt never gonna touch him. He was brave in a sociopathic, psychotic sort of way. He’s not scared, but I look in his eyes and I just lock eyes with him and the hatred I felt for what he had just put my guys through for the fear I felt hiding on a pile of God damn rocks again unnecessarily this time, right? The point I’m trying to make is the point of making with all these vignettes, and I’m going to write them down from now on once a month or once every couple of weeks is that the war was never about what they said. It was about Foer, even for the military guys. Even if the Minni the mid level management of Like Kernels it was never about winning. It was about putting on a show. It was about PR. It was about career advancement, and I’ll never, ever forgive him or them for those decisions that they made. Because again, it was my silly scouts. Huu graduated high school 18 months before who were who were bearing the brunt of that. It was, you know, it was a radio operator who had graduated high school not even a year before. Huu once told me that he was scared to die because his friends had died and he had never had sex with a girl before. Okay, he was 18. Those guys were the ones who lost out. Not that Colonel’s not the generals, you know, and it’s been like this old time and so back to the beginning again about the narrative orgies. You know, General Jack Keane says we can’t leave now because a bad thing will happen in all of this. And these individual young men that you’re talking about here really, Boyz, as you’re saying, um, you know what Lower caters to hire. You know, Lindsey Graham and his people, they have beliefs that need reinforcing or something. So and you know what? It’s the numbers are down, but still young men are not stopping. Joining the Infantry, they’ve got the supply and their dads and their uncles and their teachers and their ministers and their coaches. And everybody tells them that this is the right thing to do, and nobody knows this the era of the phony wars. This is the era of lies and wars. But it doesn’t matter if you’re wearing you know, that desert brown or that Awal of Green, then that’s good enough. That means you’re absolved of all sins. That means you can do whatever they tell you to do, and that it’s still honorable to do it. It’s still the right thing to do it because the whole question of where you’re going and what exactly you’re doing into Huu is not part of it. It’s not even part of it. The only question is, Are you serving your country and love in your flag and being responsible and learning how to shoot a rifle and a bunch of garbage that has, Well, it’s not all completely garbage, but it’s mostly garbage in the sense that it’s, you know, Red Herring rights. Awal It’s all the wrong questions being asked and answered, Instead of who are you sending me to kill him? What the hell threat do they pose to my family back home? If Eni So you completely keep on going like this and then I guess they’ll find out after the factor late in the game that are. Jeez, I guess my coach doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about, does he? Nope. And that’s the thing. You know. Everyone in their life system tells him that they’re doing an admirable thing. No one actually questions what they’re being sent to. Dio and they’ll still be on the Jumbotron and they’ll still get to board first on an airplane. And they’re still going to get someone to pick up a check and t g i. Friday’s in the airport on their way to another with losing war, and they’re going to come home and they’re gonna be a mess. And you know what’s gonna happen. They’re gonna be like It’s gonna be like, major short stint on his way out of the military after 18 years carrying war for the Aymara. Where does Danny find himself in his last official duty as a soldier in patient rehab in Arizona for PTSD? That’s the thanks you get. And I was a major, which means I didn’t even have it as bad as the squad leader or the machine gunner. But that’s the story. That’s the end state. And I think it’s absolutely ridiculous. And I’m personally insulted, and I will never forgive Ons way shouldn’t Dahr guys. That’s Danny Shearson, former major in the US Army. Ah, author of Ghost Riders of Baghdad and ah, regular columnist at Truthdig dot com and anti war dot com. Again, his last two articles are We’re listening to the wrong voices on Syria and stop pretending Washington and Kabul never really controlled rural Afghanistan. Thank you again to Eni appreciate it. Thanks, Scott. Great conversation is always but all right, y’all Thanks. Find me at Libertarian Institute dot or Ge at scott Kortan dot or Ge antiwar dot com and reddit dot com slash scott Horton Show. Oh yeah, and read my book Fool’s Errand Timed and the War in Afghanistan at Fool’s errand dot us.

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Scott interviews Jim Bronke about Joe Biden’s role, as chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, in militating for the invasion of Iraq in 2002. He deliberately stacked hearings meant to examine the potential threat of Iraqi WMD with war hawks that he knew would support the conclusions he wanted them to. Today, most democratic politicians and voters don’t seem to care at all about Biden’s worst crimes, and instead like to focus on comparatively trivial issues like his stance on busing policy.

Discussed on the show:

• “How Biden’s Secret 2002 Meetings Led to War in Iraq” (Truthout)
• “THE FIX IS IN” (Antiwar.com)
• “Biden Is Doubling Down on Iraq War Lies” (Truthout)
• Iraq Liberation Act
• The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

Jim Bronke is a former electronics engineer for the Naval Air Warfare Center-Weapons Division. He is currently retired from engineering and chair of the SW Michigan Green Party. Follow his work at Truthout.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; Washinton Babylon; Liberty Under Attack Publications; Listen and Think Audio; TheBumperSticker.com; and LibertyStickers.com.

Donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal, or Bitcoin: 1KGye7S3pk7XXJT6TzrbFephGDbdhYznTa.

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Following is an auto-generated transcript of the episode.

sorry I’m late. I had to stop by the wax museum again. Give the finger that FDR. We know Al Qaeda Zawahiri is supporting the opposition in Syria. Are we supporting Al Qaeda in Syria? It’s a proud day for America. Ghad Kice, Knut Gnehm syndrome once and for all. Thank you Very. I say it. I see it again. Bin are trying to simply deny things that just about everybody else except as fact Saud died way Kila Bayh, Armey Mutawakil Ind Maale we’d be Awene Beito like, say, I’m a Bin Say it, say it three times the meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world Then that’s going to be an invasion. Aren’t you guys introducing Jim Bronchi? He is formally an electron ics engineer for the Naval Air Warfare Center weapons division. And he spoke out against the Iraq war in 2003 as a member of military families. Speak out and he’s the chair of the Southwest Michigan Green Party and he’s got this piece in truth out dot or Ge very important this year how Biden’s secret 2002 meetings led to war in Iraq. Welcome to show how you doing, Jim? Doing great, Scott Couldn’t be happier. Uh, good. Happy to hear that. And very happy to have you on the show. I almost can’t believe it, but the falling words air about to fall out of my mouth. Joe Biden is by far the front runner for the Democratic Party nomination for president United States right now. And it’s early, but, um, he’s doing pretty well, and it must be that somebody hit all the Democrats on the head and they all got a case of the amnesia. So I brought you one, too. Maybe remind them of Cem pertinent facts about who this guy is and how many people he’s killed. Well, I appreciate you for that, Scott. After Awal Biden is just my worst candidate for president. Ah, I mean, when you look at what he did to create the Iraq war, it was built on nonsense. And that’s what I wrote about in my article reviewing the Senate Foreign Relations Committee meeting that he chaired, where he just stacked the deck on the participants. You didn’t see him inviting Scott Ritter. Huu said Iraqs wasn’t a threat. And to deal with them diplomatically well, now slow down a little bit because ah, a lot of our audience is young enough that they don’t know this stuff. They didn’t live through it the way that we did it. Also, he was the chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and Scott Ritter was Huu again. Well, Scott Ritter was a weapons inspector that went into Iraq is a part of you Nz Com Ga United Nations Special Committee And they were seeking out WMD in Iraq and disabling it. And he spent a number of years doing that. And he was basically given a lot of air time saying that there was no threat by Iraq when they’ve done a lot of disabling of WMD there. And oh, S. O Biden didn’t have him on his meeting. And, ah, he ended up just stacking the deck and having a fella by the name of our kid. You’re Hamzah, who’s wrote a book called Saddam’s Bombmaker, and he was later just discredit. It is not being much of anything. He left Iraq in 1994. So do you have any other questions? You want to go on a little bit? I mean, there was never any real evidence. And I point out with my own experience, I expected to see some details. Like Ghad. Uh, you know, Cem, radar images, satellite photos. Ah, well, as you say, the article this was all secret at first. But then I guess the transcript of the hearing was released. Was it before the war that the transcript came out? Oh, yeah, it was. It was about a month after he had this meeting. Okay. And of course, secret isn’t really right. I mean, the meeting wasn’t held in secret. It was just not open to the public. Okay? And the only way you found out about what happened is by getting the transcript. And this is the rial conundrum with our newest media’s. They didn’t do that. What? I was the only one. I mean, I believe I’m the only one that ever read the transcript. Honestly. Ah, And here we’re going to war. And our news media doesn’t even follow up on this stuff. Really? Dig in for the details. Yeah, which, by the way, I’ve never read it. Although I do have your link here. I’m opening the Lincoln Anu Taba right now because I want to go back, you know at the time. Just Ramadi Rond Antiwar Dahr Com Rotar article called The fix is in, and it was just about what you’re talking about. It was in real time that here Joe Biden is excluding anyone who knows better and is bringing Awene Awene Lee Hawks just to confirm his bias and what he wants. The rest of the Senate Democrats Thio believe in this kind of thing. And you know, in fact, I saw thing this morning or a couple days ago, I guess, by Stevens Aounist where he points out that Biden was calling for boots on the ground quote unquote in Iraq since 1998 when he helped push through the Iraq Liberation Act, which Bill Clinton signed. That on which Ron Paul warned then was a virtual declaration of war that will lead to war within a very short number of years, which turned out to be absolutely correct. So he was really just a cz Battahs Bushehr Wolfowitz on this, he was one of the prime movers. The maker sharers that this thing happened. It wasn’t just that he let it happen, or that he could have stopped at which he could have, but he was might as well have been on the Bush Cabinet. Exactly, and ATT? Some point. You have to look at how and why people like Biden come about. It’s because of the Washington environment. You know, a number of lobbying organizations that represent foreign countries. You can go to AA website like Foer, Ind. Waabi watch and just read about the amount of money they track as being given for the sake of those foreign countries. And it’s quite shocking, really. But I mean, you see links Goa round of Saeb Biden giving presentations to, you know, Cem, questionable organizations, really, in terms of their patriotism, they’re there for a foreign country, and we really have to outlaw those type of lobbying organizations. They’re not patriotic organizations, and that’s where Biden gets his strength from. And so he ends up with a foreign policy that is not for the American people in our Constitution. Yeah. Ah, well, that’s certainly right, And that certainly was a big part of what happened in Iraq. War two was the foreign lobbies, and there’s no secret the the motivations of the neoconservatives and the amount of help that they got from a pack and, uh, other pro Israel organizations during that whole time. As Walter Mearscheimer put it in their book, The Lobby. It’s not that the lobby really did the Iraq war, but it couldn’t have happened without them. So right now it’s pretty way when we give billions to Israel Huu Cannes say if some of that money isn’t coming back in the form of of aid to our politicians that support Israel, right? Uh, it’s It’s a Gn Irving, really? And Biden’s right there leading the way. Yep. And by the way, for anyone who believes this kind of slogan that we’ve all been inundated with that it may have been a mistake. But they really meant well. And everybody believed at the time that Saddam was gonna attack us with these weapons and given to Osamas Awal this. I would just point out that, and I’m no partisan of any party and especially not the Democrats. But the majority of the Democrats in the House of Representatives voted against the resolution. And so John Kerry and Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton and the different Democrat hawks in the Senate who went along with it. They have no excuse. Nancy Pelosi, the Speaker of our I guess minority leader of the house then knew better. And so what was their excuse? Other than they thought it would be good for them? Atto, help! Bush killed these innocent people. It turns out more than a million of them, right? And that’s why I’ve started a Green Party chapter here. You know, it’s it’s the only one that doesn’t take money from these special interests. Hey, guys. Scott here, I got some books you should read. The War State by Mike Swanson A great history of Early Cold War No Dev No ops, no I t by Hussein Badi Aq Chessani How to run your computer business like a good libertarian. Oh, yeah, And don’t forget fool’s errand. Time to end the war in Afghanistan by me Hey, y’all, Here’s the thing. Donate $100 to the Scott Kortan show and you can get a Q R Kode Commodity disc as my gift to you. It’s a one ounce silver disc with a Q R code on the back. You take a picture of with your phone and it gives you the instant spot price and lets you know what that silver that ounce of silver is worth on the market in Federal Reserve notes in real time. It’s the future of currency in the past to commodity discs dot com, or just go to scott horton dot or Ge slash Donate. Hey, guys, you know you probably need a new website a lot of people do. What you need to do then, is Goa to expand designs dot com, the great Harley Abbott and his team over at expand designs dot com. They’ll hook you up with a great new website for 2019 and in fact, what you really should do his type Ind. Expand designs dot com slash scott, and you’ll save $500. Let me ask you about this, cause, um, I mean, I don’t know. You could probably write volumes about the whole sociology of the anti war movement in the 21st century and what all is going on with this thing where, I mean, there was obviously a great partisan interest on the entire left half of American politics from Pelosi and Awene down to oppose this war, especially once it got going in tow. Hang it around Bushies Neck for electoral reasons. It did help the Democrats in 2006 and in 2000. Ayt obviously exploiting the war and it’s pretty obvious why a lot of liberals and progressives felt like keeping their mouths shut in order to not hurt Obama when he continued all of the wars and even added a few to the list. But now I mean, it seems so strange that Donald Trump, even though he does nothing but Escalades Warsi Hatin launching a new ones. But he’s come pretty close, but he’s escalated every single one of the wars that he inherited from Obama. But he somehow is known as being sometimes saying anti war statements or something. And then so apparently that means that he’s stolen that issue entirely from liberals and progressives. Huu Now I would rather not say anything anti war because that would what Nic Obama look bad and Trump look good so they can’t even say an anti interventionist thing at all now or something. There’s just this total silence, even though the foreign policy under a Republican president is absolutely horrible and and but instead, let’s argue about pronouns or let’s argue about Russia or some nonsense instead of looking at the wars in the Middle East and all the damage that they’ve brought. And I don’t mean to indict the entire left. I mean, especially riel leftists. Obviously, Huu hate Democrats are hard core on this stuff and are good on this stuff. And a lot of progress is, too, especially writers and things. But you know what I mean? In terms of the broad sort of liberal population of America, it just seems like all this stuff, even though the Iraq war continues to this day. We got American troops fighting in western Iraq right now, and the whole thing is just seems to no longer be an issue. Did you hear There’s a fire on a farm in Brazil? Oh, boy. Well, yeah. The Amazon rainforest is the last concern that Trump has Azzam Leylaz, the Eni part of our climate change or ecology. My point was that is just that it’s the story of the day. It’s the new cycle story of the day. And so the genocide in Yemen has to take a back seat, you know? Oh, yeah. Well, Trump hasn’t started a war, but he just doesn’t have the competence to, uh, inspire most of Americans. But they’ll go along. And I’m afraid I just don’t have any trust in our mainstream news media anymore. I think they’re like the tail wagging the dog, and they continually wag the dog with their own propaganda. And Americans, I think, are quite frustrated with our mainstream news media. Really, that’s a big part of how Trump got elected was by demonizing them, and people agreed with what he said about them that, Jeez, they lie to you all the time and they try to force you to believe what they want you to believe. And everybody said, Yeah, we hate that. And so right in the concept of fake news, Aiken credit with Trump with that, You know, really, because a lot of it is fake and it’s funnycause. That term originally applied to sites that were really just, like, not really like the Onion. But there was sites like, for example, that you times or the national report, and basically the the articles themselves weren’t funny. The joke was just if they could get you to believe it essentially and they were all hoax stories and that was what the term originally used. But then people recognize elect, You know what? The Washington Post isn’t any more honest than that. The Wall Street Journal in The New York Times aren’t any more honest than that. And Lord knows NBC News isn’t any more honest than that. So what? They might as well apply it where it fits, you know? Right? And the problems then perpetuate themselves. And by the way, this goes back to your article and Iraq War two. And not just all the media’s failure then, but the complete and total lack of accountability for those failures. And I mean the verb, you know, the failures that they committed, but also the failures, the people Huu went along for the money and for the social psychology of the whole situation. Huu should have all been completely purged. Every one of those newspaper at every newspaper editor in America should Bin fired and replaced by somebody who knew better in 2002. But that just didn’t happen. 2003. That just didn’t happen right in. It’s a shame it mean capitalism rules, and the owners of the franchise is stay in business. Yep, and their agenda stay the same. All right now, the only so people can do is what you’re doing, which is act as an independent new source on. That’s what I do in a way, just by telling my friends. Sure, Andrei, we can do it better now with, like, Facebook and stuff that a lot of the different networks out there YouTube does do help you get the word out well, and that’s why they’re panicking and trying to clamp down on it so hard on the right and the left. And for anyone, because essentially, it’s about power versus those who don’t have any and want some is the rial division that play. And so they’re clamping down on on the you know, all kinds of people and Ind De platforming them, as they call it, De ranking them on Google and all these things. There’s a whole other fight, but I want to go back to this thing that you wrote here about when you read the transcript about because of your experience in the Navy. Maybe you talk a little bit about that and what it was that you were expecting. You had a pretty good educated guess as to what you would find in the transcripts of these hearings where the experts came and explained to Joe Biden. Yeah, here’s what they have and here’s how we know it. And instead you read it and felt really deflated because of what turned out. It turned out that none of that stuff was in there. But if you could see there was no riel fax, it was all like conjecture. Wait, go back to your position in the Navy and then what you expected to see in there at a minimum? Well, sure, Like real discussions off weapons technology. You know, navigation systems, radar, uh, even biological warfare, Ind warheads and Arak doesn’t have our technology they don’t have. You can’t put together I c b m is like with a rag tag team of of engineers. And so if someone proud of America and our accomplishments, I know 1/3 World nation just couldn’t stand up to us and the technology. So it was Awal inference on things that Saddam said and what their government did like Oh, they said this, but they really mean that, like they’re hiding WMD somewhere. Well, that’s that prove Thio push us to war. Shouldn’t Bayh Uh, yeah, We should be a nation of integrity, not nonsense. And that was nonsense. Well, tell me this were their evidence is in there of kind of other motives that they, you know, weren’t really talking about because, like he said, it was kind of a private meeting. I wonder if they were a little loose lipped about what they were really doing since they really weren’t talking about weapons of mass destruction. Natta Gn Eni detailed way well, right? And I think the most damning damning thing in the entire transcript is on page 15 since you’ve opened it up. Ah, statement by Dr Ki Idir Hamzah and it’s only Dem damning in a illogical way It it’s just conjecture. And so he really says something like, Well, they said that if they let us in, we’re compromising their security. But what they really mean is they want to hide their WMD from us. That’s conjecture. And and of course, it turned out to be that they weren’t hiding Eni at W M. D. Because they didn’t have any more right. And of course, they’d already let the U. N inspect everything other than the palaces themselves, which, you know, people might not even believe us if they don’t remember this from back then. But that this was a crucial argument of the war party at the time was that we know that he has chemical weapons factories underneath his palaces because that’s where Saddam’s sleeps at night is in the penthouse suite above a chemical weapons factory. And so that must be the only reason that they won’t let us inspect the bunkers and tunnels underneath his palaces and grown adult human beings, including, you know, professionals in the media. As you’re emphasizing here, swallow that and regurgitated it for their audiences to Oh, yeah, that’s obviously why Saddam Hussein won’t let American and U. N forces underneath his palaces is because he’s making mustard gas down there even without Ronald Reagan to help him, right? And who would want mustard gas underneath their home seriously, especially what dictator who can have whatever he wants? You know, there might be poor people in America don’t have a choice but to live next to a military base full of chemical weapons. But, uh, Dom Hussein, I’m pretty sure he could at least station himself down the block or something, you know, But they made it sound like, Well, he put it there just to protect it. Right? That and of course, you’re just not supposed to ask the question. Would he really take that risk living on top of, ah, batch of sarin, you know? Come on. Right. But that’s how they got us into war. That’s what they told your mom and dad. Kids. Saddam has a secret Sepp Arun factory underneath his bedroom. And so we have to start a war in order to protect you from. And your mom and dad bought it, too. How do you like that? Sorry. Yeah, yeah. I actually have a nephew that actually serve. Yeah, in the military in Saddam’s compound. They’re doing I t work, uh, you know, during the war and and so, yeah, they didn’t have anything down there. Course in Honduras compound. I mean, So we we have to address just how illogical our government ca Gn be sometimes and how they just don’t listen to the people. I was just part of the millions that protest Id the war, and yeah, they didn’t listen. All right, so becomes Where do we go from here? Can we really fight against, you know, foreign lobbying groups against illogical aid to foreign countries that Foer questionable, You know, for us to be a can we really call out of these foreign countries Like our allies? Some of them aren’t, You know that we send aid to and it turns around and comes back and pays off our politicians. Yeah, well, you know, I really appreciate you write in this thing and because Biden deserves the heat, But besides that, you know, it should. In my mind, it’s always 2002 in 2003. And that’s how it should be for the American people that we should not be able to just get over this, get past this, forget about this. And there’s so many important lessons to come from this entirely, you know, massively destructive, unforced error. This even from the point of view of the American Empire, they shouldn’t have done this the way All they did was in power Iran and empower Al Qaeda and not win a bunch of permanent bases, not improve America’s, you know, position and power and influence in the Middle East at all. Even from the empire’s point of view, it’s been counterproductive from the average American’s point of view from the average Iraqis. Point of view. This is just like when the Japanese attacked us at Pearl Harbor. Day of infamy started a war against us. How dare they? Those sneaky bastards that’s we did started a war and Wone got more than a million people killed. And as you’re saying here over a bunch of nonsense that anyone could have seen through if they wanted to at the time it was against our Constitution, and it set America on a downhill slide, which we weren’t focused on ourselves. We’re really focused on Iraq and look what happened in 2000 Ayt you know, we had our own economic catastrophe? Yep, which, which you could really say, was partially due to the war, of course. Absolutely. I mean, they had to make the Warsi Gn free. Can you imagine if they just raised everyone’s taxes? Listen, we let Osama Goa, but now we want to have another war against Saddam Hussein who didn’t do it. But it’s gonna be really expensive. It’s gonna cost five or $6 trillion so What we’re gonna do is we’re gonna bump everyone up a tax bracket. And what would happen then? George Bush would have been run out of town on a rail. Instead, they just had Alan Greenspan print the money and make it seem free. And in fact, I think it’s really lucky for history that the crash did happen while Bush was still in power. He still had to. Three months to go is a lame duck. Their September Oo weighed it, crashed on his watch, so I couldn’t just blame it all on the next guy whose policies were exactly the same, by the way, he just started up. You know exactly what Bush did, too. Oh, we have a crash. Let’s print money and launch new wars. And unfortunately, he got out of power before the next crash. So it’ll be blamed on his successor, although he deserves his share of the blame for it. But still Ah, yeah, that’s the whole thing, man, about this, why we have to keep going back over this because it didn’t have to be this way. All these are decisions that certain humans made that they did not have to make it could have been totally different. The counterfactual is so obvious. Joe Biden could have said to Hillary and to carry. Hey, we got to stop this. We can do it, Hillary. You’re the wife of the former president. Get out there and tell him that you know that this stuff isn’t true and me and him will back you up. Let’s save the day. They could have done that, and they could have stopped the war. They could have told the American people, Dick Cheneys, far more dangerous to our country than Saddam Hussein. And, you know, they could have done it. But they decided instead that it would for their own selfish interests that they would look better as hawks. Because you know a lot of those guys, Bill Clinton, even though he was just the governor at the time. But also carry. And Biden had opposed Iraq war Wone and then had never led, you know, um uh, what’s the service at? Fraser lived it down. They had never been able to live that down, that they had voted against the first Iraq war, which was such a great war that they had to continue it. 10 years later. But, um, so they figured they better support this Wone when they could have been heroes. And it wouldn’t have taken much effort either. As you said, there were millions of people in the street demanding that they do something to stop it. But they refused. It’s very frustrating for the average American. The average American doesn’t even watch. The news are mainstream news, and I have no faith in our mainstream news myself. If reporting out a hurricane, I might watch. That’s about it. Yeah, yeah, Then I have too much interest to lie to us about when and where it’s going to make landfall most the time, probably. But yeah, that’s the other thing, too, is where Iraq could could actually service a false example of like, well, that one time when in fact, they’ve done nothing but lies in the war ever since they lied us into staying in Iraq ever after the invasion of Oo three, they lied us into Libya. They lied us into Syria. They lied us into rap for three where you know against the Islamic state they’ve lied us into Ah, well, I didn’t even mention their wars, and Molly in Somalia and some of these other places. But the entire thing has been based off a dishonesty. They lied to us about the whole Russia Ge Ayt scam for three years. They lied to us about everything all the time. And so yeah, at least if one can get people to, um to err, err on the side of Peace Assn. Long as you’re not believing them, then I think that’s progress. Well, I have a special amount of frustration also that I I had to start following at the age of 50 the real events in the Middle East and research the United Nations, the creation of Israel and even current reporting on serious events in Israel in the Middle East. And I realized that our news media was just not honest with that either. And that became a really sticky issue with me because Americans aren’t getting the truth with the rial nature of things and Israel. And I mean, I’ve got a Jewish friend girlfriend who left is your was born in Israel, came to America and never went back. And so I have Jewish friends, but still that it doesn’t mean I realized that Israel is a good place for Jews. It wasn’t created like America Wasat. It was created out of desperation by Joost Oo have a place for Jews when most of the people that lived there weren’t Jewish and so became, ah, nation of unequal rights. And that is ultimately bad for the favored group of people. So Andar news media just doesn’t get to the real truth there. And we’re in a continued state of, um, disorder because of it. Yeah, I think that’s such a great point that you make that it’s against the interests of the Israelis to let their government keep doing what they’ve been. Don’t just like Ron Paul, it said, back in this big fight with Giuiliani about if you think that America congest Goa around the world, doing whatever we want and never have to suffer the consequences that you believe that you know, we believe that at our own peril, Huu, we’re liable to get ourselves into real messes if we’re blind to the real consequences. What happens if we blame extraneous circumstances, Foer the causes of our problems instead of living up to the reality that I think that absolutely is true in the case of Israel. A swell where any friend of Israel would tell them that you got to get rid of Likudnik man. And for that matter, you know, labor to these guys. What they’re doing is they set Israel on a path where, you know, essentially can’t be Israel anymore. They’re not gonna be able to keep half their population in bondage forever. And so they’re either gonna let him go or they’re going to give up the exclusive Jewish nature of their state. And they want neither. But they’re going to have to choose. And the fact that they’re in this position is only because they’ve let their government put them in this position. They could have let the West Bank Oo 50 years ago, you know? Right? And we should be sending three billion a year to the non Jews. They’re called the Palestinians instead of Israel. And that would probably stop a lot of the conflict. You know, just call the whole intervention off. I mean, without American cover, I think Israel would have to make peace very quickly. But Oo may would have to learn the concept of equal rights and fairness and not shoot people just goes their protest ng and not Jews, you know, protesting Jerusalem. You know, that was just the latest round of ugly Nas six months ago when they killed, like, 50 Palestinian protesters protesting Jerusalem as the new Jewish capital. The story goes on and on and on. Our news media doesn’t jump to the cause of really criticizing Israel. Yeah, now they never will either. It is up to you and me, but I’ll tell you what. I’m so sorry that I have to let you go here. I am really late for my next Wone, but I hope you’ll keep riding more. I see you have archive here at truth, out dot or Ge, And I hope you keep writing. And I hope if you do have an email list of some kind that you’ll put me on it because I like this stuff. Okay, Scott. All right. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Okay, everybody, that is Jim Bronchi. And he wrote this great thing at truth. Out dot or Ge Shoah, all your liberal friends. It’s called how Biden’s secret 2002 meetings led to war in Iraq. All right, y’all Thanks. Find me at Libertarian Institute Dot or Ge at scott Kortan dot or Ge antiwar dot com and reddit dot com slash scott Horton Show. Oh yeah, and read my book Fool’s Errand Timed and the War in Afghanistan at Fool’s errand dot us.

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Historian Gar Alperovitz shares the history of America’s use of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Contrary to what most of us learned in school, many of the top military officers and intelligence officials were adamant at the time that use of the bombs was unnecessary to get the Japanese to surrender, which they expected to happen as soon as the Soviet Union invaded. The bombs were used instead as a political maneuver to intimidate the Russians, but which of course only led to the disastrous arms race of the cold war.

Discussed on the show:

• “The War Was Won Before Hiroshima—And the Generals Who Dropped the Bomb Knew It” (The Nation)
• Potsdam Conference
• “The Fog of War: Eleven Lessons from the Life of Robert S. McNamara (2003)” (IMDb)
• Sly and Able: A Political Biography of James F. Byrnes
• The Tragedy of American Diplomacy (50th Anniversary Edition)

Gar Alperovitz is a historian, political economist, activist, and writer. He has taught at the University of Maryland, Cambridge University, and Harvard and is the author of Atomic Diplomacy: Hiroshima and Potsdam and The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb. Follow his work at his website www.garalperovitz.com.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; Washinton Babylon; Liberty Under Attack Publications; Listen and Think Audio; TheBumperSticker.com; and LibertyStickers.com.

Donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal, or Bitcoin: 1KGye7S3pk7XXJT6TzrbFephGDbdhYznTa.

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Following is an auto-generated transcript of the episode.

sorry I’m late. I had to stop by the wax museum again and did the finger that FDR We know Al Qaeda. Zawahiri is supporting the opposition in Syria. Are we supporting Al Qaeda in Syria? It’s a proud day for America. Ghad kicked Vietnam syndrome once and for all. Thank you. Very. I say it. I see it again. Bin These women are trying to simply deny things just about everybody else except Nas. Fact Ain Saud died way. Kila Bayh, Armey Khaleeq Illing Maale way Bol Beito like, say, I’m Gnehm Bin Say it. Say it three times the meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world. Then that’s going to be an invasion Arak. All right, you guys introducing Ge our Alpher wits. He wrote this well. First of all, he’s a historian who has written a tone of extremely important books, including the decision to use the Atomic Bomb and Atomic diplomacy, Hiro Sonoma and Potsdam. And he’s got this one in the nation from couple of weeks back. August 6th anniversary time. The war was won before Hiro Sonoma and the generals who dropped the bomb knew it. Welcome to show how are you doing? Garc. Great. Thanks for having you Very happy to have you here. And it’s such an important article that you wrote. There’s so much to talk about regarding the atomic bombing. But you focus, right. Awene was probably the most persuasive and educational point for the average American, which is all of the extremely credentialed criticism of the use of that bond, that contrary to what we’re all taught in fifth, afraid that this was an absolute necessity, Everyone who you would think agreed with that back then turns out, didn’t well, it’s certainly true that the top generals and admirals the ones at the very top, uh, almost all of them went public immediately after the war, which is very hard to imagine the president. United States have made a decision, and many of them went public saying that bomb was totally unnecessary. The war was going to end shortly in any way without an invasion, and it the bombing was almost entirely about civilians. Hiro Xinhua was Natta Military Center. There was that small installation there, but it was a very marginal. It was basically a civilian target and the generals and admirals, the many of them. Old conservatives, uh, weren’t talked. Is one of them said to kill when women and children unnecessarily. So it is quite amazing to find General President Eisenhower. General Eisenhower went public saying it was outrageous. Kurdish Salame, the famous bomber pilot, The bomb Dov off Tokyo immediately after the war came out saying the war was going to be over within a couple of weeks. This was outrageous to Bottome all these civilians. Um, I can go on the list is long 2020 of them Ayt Nai Cont Id Huu our top people five star generals and admirals of the Fleet Admirals. It’s quite quite an indictment. Most of them conservatives Nots, not liberals. They’re radicals of old fashioned conservatives just didn’t believe in killing women and children. It’s important to know that he Roshan was not a military target. There was a small installation. There would live training unit, but not very large. Which meant that with the young men Japanese men off to war Huu was left were women, old people and kids. Basically that’s that was the population that was decimated with the bombing of Hiroshima. No, with these men that you’ve cited here with most of them. I mean, I’m asking for a generalization, but would they have supported the atomic bombings if they thought that they were necessary and they just knew that they weren’t necessary or Int necessary quote unquote to end the war. Then, rather than let it, ah, you know, continue on or they would have rather invaded the place, then drop the bombs. But still, to get that unconditional surrender. I know. I think the first let me back, back up the intelligence estimates at this time starting in April 1945. Uh, remember the bomb was used in August. Several months later, the intelligence estimate said the Japanese air close to surrender when the Russian army attacks. The rest of that we’re not in the war. When they attack, that will precipitate an immediate surrender. And the reason is that the Japanese feared Russian invasion Communist invasion more than anything else that would rather be invaded by the United States if they had to be invaded. So U S intelligence and British intelligence made this argument again and again starting in April 1945 when the Russians entered the war. As long as they keep their emperor. And we had decided long ago they were going to keep the emperor because we wanted to use Andr after the surrender to control the Japanese people. So we were gonna keep the emperor of no matter what. So they knew the war would end if you kept the emperor and the Russians attacked. And since we didn’t know whether the atomic bomb would work, it was unknown until July of 45. We were desperately begging the Russians to come in because that would end the war without an invasion. So that was the plan. Up until August 1945 the Russians will come in. They were scheduled to come in three months after the German invasion. Take him that long to move the troops into position across the across Siberia. Long, long Cannes problem to send Mobil that mobilized the whole thing and move! Move all the troops and tanks. So they were scheduled to come in on August 8th. Andrei Hadar request. And because intelligence said that would end the war so long as we let them keep their emperor, which we’re gonna do anyway because they could control the Japanese people. The bomb there was at Potsdam. A proclamation was instant. A big conference in Germany in July of 1945 proclamation was issued by us warning Japan to surrender. It famously contained a paragraph saying, You can keep the emperor because we knew they wouldn’t would not surrender. They saw the emperor’s a Ghad. If we didn’t say that, if you send If there was any doubt about the Emperor Houthis Ghad finger, they would not surrender that paragraph, promising them they could keep. The emperor is a figurehead with no power was extracted by the secretary of state and the reason he extracted it, it’s now obvious and clear. He didn’t want them to surrender, and the reason he didn’t want them to surrender was he wanted to use the Bottome, uh, rather than have a surrender of you then or when the Russians came in. Which is what the military intelligence said. What happens that when the Russians came in, tell him that we weren’t going to harm their Ghad figure? You could be a figurehead like the King of England. Tell them that when the Russians come in, the war is over, and by the way, there’s three months to test this Because we can’t even do a landing for three months. We can’t land till November. We know we’re in it. We’re in position logistically to do that. So we kept them fighting. Bye. Taking away assurances for the emperor, The jet The Russians were scheduled. Kunming Awene order States Khera Xinhua was bombed on August 6th. Russians attacked on August 8th. Nagasaki was bombed the longest nights. So that’s the sequence. And as I said, and as we now know, endless documents about how the military figure many of these old conservatives were just outraged at the killing. Unnecessary killing of civilians With this is what Eissa Notre called that terrible thing that you’re now on that question of the unconditional surrender there. When you say the secretary of State, change that in the official declaration there at pasta Mme. You’re also saying though, that inside the U. S. Government, there was no change that they had decided long ago. It wasn’t just that MacArthur decided for expediency later. They had decided long ago that, of course, will keep the emperor. But they kept that a secret essentially and Ammannet total unconditional surrender so that they couldn’t get it. Yes, that’s right. That’s right. They they knew that they were going to keep the emperor in a powerless position in order to help control the Japanese people. Ind Fixit, Yariv Japanese Armey once we invaded and we’re occupying depend, That was the plan. But it’s not like, you know, for example, I’m just making this up. But the contrary narrative would be well, there was a big debate inside the government whether toe let them keep the emperor not or something like that. In other words, this was a solid decision. There was no wavering on the decision. The only wavering was in public for Japanese consumption. Exactly. The plan was this is the best way to do. Once we have an occupation of Japan, the way to do it is to keep the emperor’s a figurehead because he won’t keep things under control for us. That was always Gleb. Hey, guys. Scott! Here, Igor Assem Books. You should read the War State by Mike Swanson A great history of early Cold War. No, Dev, No ops, No, I t by Hussein Badi Aq Johnny. How to run your computer business like a good libertarian. Oh, Yeah, And don’t forget fool’s errand. Time to end the war in Afghanistan by me. Hey, y’all, Here’s the thing. Donate $100 to the Scott Kortan show and you can get a Q R Kode Commodity disc as my gift to you. It’s a one ounce silver disc with a Q R code on the back. You take a picture of with your phone, and it gives you the instant spot price and lets you know what that silver that ounce of silver is worth on the market in Federal Reserve notes in real time. It’s the future of currency in the past to commodity discs dot com, or just go to scott horton dot or Ge slash Donate. Hey, guys, you know you probably need a new website a lot of people do. What you need to do then, is Goa To expand designs dot com, the great Harley Abbott and his team over at expand designs dot com. They’ll hook you up with a great new website for 2019 and in fact, what you really should do. His type Ind expand designs dot com slash scott, and you’ll save $500. Okay, now So let’s go back because you said you could go on all day about the names of these men. I wish you would, uh, take your time and go through and remind us. I mean, who is Admiral Leahy? Why would we listen to a guy like him? This kind of thing? Most of Chevrolet. He He was a fleet admiral. Six stars. You can’t get any higher than that. He was chief of staff to the president. United States. He was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the combined U S. U K Chiefs of staff. He’s about as high as you could get at that time. Very conservative Old Admiral. Here’s what he said. And very good friend of Harry s. Truman, the President. Here’s what he said after the bomb is used, Gnehm, The use of this barbarous weapon that Hiro Shima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender. Ind being the first to use it, we adopted unethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion wars cannot be won by destroying women and children. That’s a direct quote from this conservative, uh, state admiral lady and now one of these. It’s very interesting to me. Is Curtis LeMay Huu? I don’t know if you could call him conservative. He was certainly a right winger may be more of a radical than a conservative. What we all know that he was perfectly willing to use H bombs on China and Korea when the opportunity presented itself. So he was no humanitarian. But again, he’s, I guess, speaking just this is the butcher Tokyo. But he’s speaking just in utilitarian terms that this was unnecessary. Here’s, uh, Mises press conference from, uh, General Curtis LeMay September 20th 1945. Uh, use the atomic bomb quote had nothing to do with the end of the war. The war would have ended over in two weeks without the use of the atomic bomb or even the Russian entry into the war. Goa You mean in the press says you mean that’s sir, This is a press conference without the Russians, without the atomic bomb Hmeed the atomic bomb Int nothing to do with the end of the war at all. Ind Aires on that the but world would’ve Ayt Id anyway, as most of them think. That’s what U S intelligence said. And you mentioned also Ike Eisenhower, who was the five star commander of United Nations forces in Europe. Ah, and later President United States. Let me see what I can find as in here. Got a list of these collected. Here he is, um, he’s talking about Give me a couple. Of course, uh, he’s talking about when he was told before of the atomic bomb was used by the secretary of war. And here’s his quote during his recitation of the relevant facts, I was conscious of a feeling of the oppression. And so I voiced my grave misgivings first, on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and the dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary. Secondly, because I thought our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon to his employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory is a measure to save American lives. In 19 after he was present, that’s before he was president. After he was president, his president, United States. In a 1963 interview, he was quite blunt. It wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing. And can you talk about Nimitz and MacArthur? Who were the two major commanders of the Pacific Theater? They both condemned it as well. Yeah, here’s the what we have from MacArthur is the recollections from two different people. Um, Mr Wone, Richard Nixon President, United States remind. Recalling that quote, General MacArthur once spoke to me very eloquently about the atomic bomb pacing the floor of his apartment in the wall. Darth. He thought a tragedy that the bomb was ever exploded. MacArthur believes that the same restrictions ought to apply to atomic weapons as to conventional weapons that the military objectives should always be limited. Des Gn damage to noncombatants. McCarthy, you see, was a soldier. He believed in using force on Lee against military targets, and that is why the nuclear thing turned him off. And then Mark MacArthur’s pilot, wilder Gn roads. The day after Khera Shima. This is that the pilot, who was his personal pilot, noted in his diary. General MacArthur definitely is appalled and depressed by this Frankenstein monster. I had a long talk with him today, necessitated by the impending trip. Jer Okinawa. So I think that there’s no doubt. But what MacArthur was saying was just that was almost all the metal Top military felt the same way. They just worked, talk to bomb civilians when it was unnecessary. In general or particularly it was unnecessary. And Nimitz, there’s the American class of aircraft carriers are named after him. And he was in charge of the whole kind of Southern campaign in the Pacific. And it was his forces Atty. Evo Jima and all that, right? Exactly. And then So what did he say about it? This is a pup. You went public, Khatt. This was an address. Two months after the after Khera Shima is at the Washington Monument. Actually, quote the Japanese had in fact, already sued for peace before the atomic age was announced to the world with the destruction of Hiroshima and before the Russian entry into the war, the atomic bomb played no decisive part. From a purely military standpoint, in the defeat of Japan. Yeah, you have to understand what’s going on here because it is. These are the top leading military people of the United States army and Navy of world fighting in World War Two. These air, not secondary figures. And this is immediately after the use of the atomic bomb. They’re going public attacking. What the president has just done it is, you know, it’s amazing through a Gn reflecting on it. Military is usually very quiet about the commander in chief’s decisions. And here you find one after another of them, not all of them. Some of them waited Atto Briton, a biography or their personal recollections. But a number of them went public after the world Lif Salame being the most interesting and Admiral Nimitz being another one. Very interesting. Yeah, well, and it really just Khowst to show the irony of, you know, American power in this age, where we’re constantly having to rely on the military men to restrain the, uh, passions, I guess, of the civilians when it’s the standing army that at the end of the day still is the greatest threat. But sometimes they prefer to not be so misused and advised the civilians to to be a little bit less worse than they would otherwise be when it’s the civilians job to rein them in all the time. Supposedly, it’s quite It’s quite Injun. These were, you know, I’m hardly conservative myself, but these were virtually all very, very conservative generals and admirals, and, uh, we’re very serious about defending the United States. And they were also very serious about not being, um you know, I think McNamara Wone said and we lost the war. We don’t Bin war criminals for bombing all these cities and people. Civilians. Yeah. And by the way, for anyone who’s too young and doesn’t know and have never seen that film The fog of war. It’s where McNamara finally comes clean. And he was guilty. Not just, you know, in Japan, but also in Korea and Vietnam of burning so many people, the death. And then at the end of the day, he says, Yeah, I guess I shouldn’t have done that. So are you Nots Nots. Sorry, but slightly regretful or something like that. And I’m sorry because I know less about General Hap Arnold and Admiral Bill Hawl Z. Can you tell us about them? Uh, well, let’s see. Hap Arnold was the guy who was running the Air Force at this time and see if I can find a quote from him. and again, Minni, it’s the same thing throughout that these people knew the war was over, That the military was was the It was not a question. The intelligence is very clear. It was gonna end when the Russians came in. Japanese were desperately, you know, on their last legs, no matter what. Um, so here’s the kind of thing you got from him asked, uh, 10 days after Hiro Shima Houthis ahead of the Air Force, this is gonna get in going public by the New York Times. Aigars The Japanese position was hopeless even before the first atomic bomb film, because the Japanese had lost total control of their own air. In his memoirs, Jarrah Enel deserves it always appeared to us that atomic bomb, no atomic bomb, the Jer Aporrea Japanese were already on verge of collapse. And here’s his deputy, General Dhaira eager, by the way, is you. You can imagine all these these quotes for from a book that I wrote called the decision to use the time and finally just assembled all the quotes to find out what the military was doing. Time assemble them. You can find them in that book. Here’s the Arnolds, Deputy General. Uh, Shankar, Um, this is in an internal military history interview. This is inside the U. S. Military very often do interviews trying to find out what actually happened for historical purposes and for training purposes. There’s Ayt you’re talking about Arnold, who was head of the Air Force. Arnold’s viewed was that it? The dropping of the atomic bomb was totally unnecessary. He said he knew the Japanese wanted piece. There were political implications in the decision, and Arnold did not feel it was military’s job to question it. Aidar reported further that Arnold told him when the question comes up of whether we use the atomic bomb or not, my used my view is that the Air Force will not oppose the use of the bomb, and they will deliver it effectively if the commander in chief decides to use it. But it is not necessary to use it in order to conquer the Japanese without the necessary necessity of an invasion. Again, it’s virtually all of these these admirals and generals at the very top who knew what was going on and exactly the same view of the war was just about over and bomb was totally unnecessary and should have been used well. I have anecdotes like this, and I’ve also heard tell of a lot of anecdotes like this, too, where people get into riel argument friends or family members, or a guy at a bar or whatever, where the position that you’re taking is essentially believed to be something that Awene Lee the most horrible and hateful anti American people could ever say. And don’t you know that millions and millions of Americans would have died trying to invade Japan and all of these crazy things? That’s an actual quote from President Bush senior. Not just a million, but millions and millions, he said, Um, when people really believe that stuff. But then what happens is what we’ve just gone through here. These quotes of these men are just the ultimate antidote to that, because it doesn’t just say, actually, that’s not quite true. Look at some of this criticism. I think this is the ultimate criticism. Magdy, Amarah and Nimitz and Ike and LeMay and and ah, you know all these people and it’s incredible. It’s shocking. Two people who have never been taught this they don’t ever teach us this, um, you know, other than an antiwar dot com, right? You don’t get this stuff in school. And so, um, it’s the kind of thing that a really make a light bulb. Goa Awene that not only have I been wrong, but wow, man, maybe there’s a whole other world that I was living in the real one. If this many men And as you said, conservatives, Republicans, right wingers, lifelong military men, the heroes of World War Two they were the ones the leaders. Now, as you said Nots, secondary figures, not pencil pushers. Back at the Pentagon, the quote unquote greatest men off that greatest generation day were the ones who said we shouldn’t have done this. So where does that leave us, then? Well, it is quite shocking. I mean, because this this material has been a very I’m not. This is not secret material that’s been available for a long time. So it’s been avoided, not looked at. And people have found it very, very difficult to to believe what I think is true. Then what? All these I agree with these people, the military leaders that the bomb was totally unnecessary was aimed primarily at a civilian target. Khera Xinhua was not a military target. It did, as I said, in a very small training base there. But that’s not why they chose that. They chose it because they liked the target. They thought it would show what the bomb could use. It was very nice. Design a city that would show off what the bomb could actually do. That that’s why they chose it and must be mostly old people. Young kids and women left behind is the young men went to war. So it was, uh, it was clearly a There’s Bin research on this lately. Cem. Very good legal work. It was clearly a war crime. It was an international war. Crime to bomb was Eni civilian target, which is essentially what Kirishima Wasat, and particularly when there’s no necessity. So it is an outrageous story that way, Americans have not wanted to talk about except Foer, these leading conservatives. I’m hardly a conservative, but I have great respect for these for these old serious conservatives. Huu Huu were dedicated to protecting the United States. They were honorable army and navy and Air Force guys who were trying to do their duty, but they just did not believe in killing women and children unnecessarily. Yeah, um, and now So there’s been a lot of talk, I think, especially this year. You know, it’s always a little bit of talk, you know, in August, every anniversary, Cem writing in that kind of thing, which I’m grateful for, I guess we shouldn’t take that for granted. The work’s gotta be done to get done. Um, but it seems like this time around, part of the discussion has been about, ah, kind of more specific questions. About what? Truman Ooh. And when he knew it, what? They told him what he really believed in whether he really thought he was nuking a military base. And I guess there was twitter thread by this historian talking about whether he really had any idea they were gonna hit Nagasaki two days later. Ah, that he Apparently, according to one document, it seems like maybe he didn’t realize that we were gonna attack him again until the end of the month or something like that. What do you think about that stuff? Uh, I have not seen any Eni serious documentation of that kind. Um, I pretty much know this literature fairly well. I’ve done two big books on it. That doesn’t mean I couldn’t have missed something but everything. Everything we know about the decision is that he was aware of the basic intelligence and that he understood what was happening. He waas It is what really started Huma Gn terms was Juma Gn was way over his head. He was a senator from, you know, without any experience in this he knew nothing about was going on in the war. Roosevelt died and he was thrown into this position in April. Um, kind of trying to get his sea legs. Ah, he was dominated at this point in time, in my view. And I think it’s pretty well understood by historians by the man he chose to be secretary of state. And Huu was really the person who was involved. Mutie essentially guided Truman Nas Gnehm was Secretary of State James Birns, B y r N E s of South Carolinian. Ah, very important figure in the New Deal. Very conservative and very, uh, very slippery. His biographer Rotar time of the book Sly and even sly and, uh, camera with Decter Asli Ind deceptive or something like that was the title of the biography. Ah, very, very slippery guy. Um, And he had taught Truman when he became a senator. Birns wasn’t senator. At one point, he was in court. Just Stasi was governor of the state. Ah, and he ran the domestic economy for Rooseveltian. Very powerful figure. Hey, had also been at the Yalta conference when Roosevelt met with Stalin. So he was on the inside of everything. But he had personally Bin in the Senate, Kind of, um, Truman’s kind of guiding guiding figure when Huma Gn came in and didn’t know anything about the Senate is a young senator from Missouri. Birns took him under his wing and taught him the ropes. Well, Truman made Birns his secretary of state when Roosevelt died in April, and he also gave him basically control of the decisions about what to do with the emperor and what to do with the atomic bomb. Uh, pretty much so. That’s the guy to look for. If you see Huu, it’s very much like George Bush was run around by Vice president changing, um, Birns. A figure like Cheny running around a young Trumanites was just freshen and didn’t know what he was really doing at the outset on Birns, Nas on record, saying at the time a bunch of scientists came to came to him and Ind April of 1945 or maybe was late March. Uh, probably was in April, I’m sure of, of 1945. A bunch of scientists came to their Mutie atomic scientists and they said, Look, we all know the war is over. You really shouldn’t use this thing. It’s very dangerous. You’re gonna start an arms race that could lead to the destruction of the world. And Birns said to them, I know the war is over, but I want it. And this is a quote. Uh, we need the bomb to make the Russians more manageable. Uncool, and so birds. There’s a lot of evidence that Birns saw. The bomb is a weapon against the Russians, not the Japanese, both because he was worried about Eastern Europe. He’d Bin Ind Yalta. He thought using the bomb would scare them and bad they’d back off of Eastern Europe, highly unlikely that they would relax there because the Germans and invaded twice Russia twice and also in Asia he thought Ind Mansuri of the Russian Army. If we didn’t get the Russians into the war in Japan, they wouldn’t come into Manchuria. Maybe we could have more influence in that area. So But Birns explicitly did say to these scientists, Huu recorded it. I wrote it down. No, I want to use the bomb because we’ll make the Russians more manageable. And the scientists were shocked because they knew anybody who was in the inside. I thought about it for five minutes. If we use the bomb to scare the Russians or even if we use the bomb without any attempt to try toe do Cem negotiations, they will have to get up Gn atomic bomb. They will see it as a threat. And so what that will mean is that we will be in an arms race building nuclear weapons forever, which is actually what happened. But that was Birns, I think is the key figure. So the bomb was if you look at what Birns was talking about and if we had most of the discussion between Secretary of State Birns and Harry Truman, personal discussions privately, they’re old drinking buddies. We have very few records of what they actually said to each other. We do know that that’s where the decisions were made. You know a lot about what they thought and when it. The best estimate of what was going on was that Birns really wanted to use the bomb and primarily because he saw its role in not so much in ending the War of the World, was gonna end anyway without invasion, but because of its implications, might scare the Russians both Ind Manchuria and Eastern Europe. That’s very hard to pin down. But that’s the best we could do with the available documents. And maybe someday. Ah, a good friend of mine investigative journalists believes that there are documents. If you really dig, you’re gonna find in somebody’s basement. There’s some longstanding nephew who inherited a box of papers that he didn’t know what to do with, and we’re gonna be a better picture. That’s about it. But you can do at this point because Birns, for instance, one last thing about the chief advisor Birns, just to give you an evidence was kind of his way of operating in the world. He had a special system with a manning brown and Brown kept a diary of what was going on. And, uh, Birns got hold of the diary, rewrote it and then filed it in the official documents. And when historians would come up to you and say, Well, what about what happened with the bombing and what happened? Awal, this is Well, there’s a diary from my assistant. You could go over to the to the archives, and I will probably give you all you need to Dohuk, which was the diary that Birns Hib privately edited and re Briton favorable to him. He was a very slippery character. Yeah, that’s interesting. Um, well and it’s so important, Like you say that you know this whole idea yet we’ll scare them and then what? They’ll leave power and go home or what’s gonna happen then? The obvious thing is, as you say, people warned in advance. And of course, that’s how it played out was the Soviets embarked on a crash course to get Unabomber as fast as they could, and they got Wone within three years. And then within that state three years, America lost Chinatown, Maui Gn the communists anyway, And so the whole thing about giving us an advantage in Manchuria by calling a premature halt to the Soviet invasion on Japan’s western flank. There was no Ind void anyway. So the whole thing, even if even the ulterior motive with some bogus garbage well, it’s it’s an in a certain degree, it’s at least some of the conservatives in the U. S. Government again, I came away with high respect for some of some of these old conservative Assn. I say I don’t start from a conservative position myself. So Secretary of War was a man named Henry L. Stimson, a conservative Republican. Rosett Ravindran Point. And he was, in fact oversaw the the generals who built the bombing Secretary of war. And he understood the danger in just the way you that said, if you if we use the bomb in a way that’s responsible, the Russians will have to build a bomb because they will see it is necessary. And there will be an unarmed Ms race and that these things that could destroy the world. So he desperately wanted Truman to approach the Russians two some kind of a deal so that we wouldn’t end up where we did end up and that’s a concern. Another conservative is Henry else steps in when the leading conservative figures in modern 20th century history and he made a desperate attempt to do it and again lost the battle to people like Birns, who had no interest in Awal. They Azzam Stimpson put it. The Russians will see us with this weapon rather ostentatiously on our hip, and they will know what to do. And that’s actually been happy, of course. And then we are with nuclear weapons everywhere, and so far we’ve been lucky. Yep, and America did actually end up, while some Americans at least ended up helping the Russians with their bomb anyway. So they split the difference on the policy but without any of the trust building Awene Lee with the atomic bomb delivering. So it’s sort of like having John Bolton prevent the North Koreans from advancing their nuclear program for you. In a year or two, they’ll have a bombs. Yeah, it’s it’s a very it’s a tragic story, Um, you know, because here we have nuclear weapons everywhere and it would have been very difficult to present prevent an arms race. It would not have been difficult to prevent the destruction of Hiroshima and and, uh, Nagasaki, and basically Awal, mostly civilian lives. That would have been relatively easy. Uh, it would have taken great diplomacy to work out a thoughtful solution in advance. Esam Open Khyber was also for many, many people within the government, and many conservatives were trying to advanced. They, uh, Azzam Ighlas Nabir trying to advance in arms control program at the outset. But there Juma Gn Ind Birns were having none of it, none of it they their their strategy was pushed production and get ahead. Just keep getting ahead. Which meant there would be a worldwide arms race. And there was no no serious the efforts that were made. But Ars controlling Gizai Aramin have been examined by many researchers Ind pretty fraudulent that could not have been accepted by Russians. Expo it forward. Well, I sure wish I’d read both of these books that you’ve written about this. Are there any other major kind of themes that are in about the first book, which is a The first book I wrote on this was called atomic diplomacy Because it shows how U S policy turns the Russians in 1945 just in the period we’re talking about. After the Germans surrendered in May 8th 1945 the bomb was used in August. The Japanese surrendered shortly thereafter. So that period they’re now diaries available, which show how they began to US policy makers began to calculate What happens if we have this new weapon this Id began talking about is the ace in the hole So that began. Seeing it is a very powerful weapon, primarily against the Russians. Um, Ms Well, it’s Japanese war, but they were thinking more about diplomacy. And I wrote a book about that called atomic diplomacy, based basically on the diaries of the particular Secretary. Fourest Diaries came available when I was doing research on this and then just extraordinary diaries because he talks about all of this pretty much the way I’m talking about it. Nothing. Kid s O. That’s one line. But later on, that’s the time it’s called atomic diplomacy. Hiro Shima and Fustine The Pas Zidane conference Werheim Jos Stalin Ind Weierman met in Germany at the time, just before Khera Huma Americanflag Matzzie. But the second book I wrote is called the decision to use the Atomic bomb And it is a very detailed discussion with all of these military leaders. Ah, which goes beyond the first looking at the impact of the bomb on diplomacy. But how precisely did it impact the decision? And how was it, Maidan? What we know about Precisely Huu controlled the decision making and set it by Step Assn. Best we can because a lot of it was done. A lot of it was done privately between Truman, as I said, and his uh Ms Manan, Secretary of State Birns Huu Ghad Bin is kind of teacher in the Senate. And Huu kind of ran the show during those 1st 6 months of the Truman administration. Something a lot of it’s their privately between them that you can dig out people who understood what was going on and you have to piece the story together. It’s kind of a mystery. Starbucks the basic points air clear. They saw it as a weapon against the Russians. Rond Birns was Ki figure. Yeah, well, we’ve got Ah, I guess the good news is that there are Awene Lee a couple of 10,000 of these on the planet now, where’s before? There were total Almost what, like 100,000 of these nukes? Something like that. Or 80 90,000 of these things in the hands of the U. S and the U. S. S. R. At the height of the Cold War buildup, right? Yeah, we’re in a little bit better position, but it’s not a very happy position that there’s an awful lot of these things around. Yeah, um, it’s funny to think of George H. W. Bush in a way, despite all of the, you know, 30 year war in Iraq that he started in all this stuff in a way like from a quantifiable sort of measurable point of view. He may be the the greatest man who ever existed in the sense of signing those last few disarmament treaties with Gorbachev and then with Yeltsin in just the last two years of his government there at the end of the Cold War. I mean, has any other man ever gotten rid of tens of thousands of nukes? And he shares that, of course, with Gorbachev and with Yeltsin two. I only learned recently, I guess that it was in January of 93 when he only had two weeks left in office. He went to Russia because, of course, the red flag came down on Christmas Day 90 Wone. So then just what, three weeks later, he got on a plane and signed a whole new treaty with Yeltsin. Um, you know, since it was gonna take too long for Bill Clinton to get started on his negotiations. Let’s go ahead and get rid of another couple of 10,000 of these things. Shrug. I hate to give the Enel S o B credit, but that’s pretty great. Yeah, it’s a very he had Cem on this issue. I think you’re absolutely right. People don’t recognize and credit him. And also the I’m blocking the name of the man who was the national security advisor who was in your Croft Awene. Yeah, and who actually was running and guiding guiding Dnes. Ms Strategy there. And he was another former general, former general. There’s ah Seymour Hersh is if you they you know, The great reporter He has also writes in a different vein Natta about this particular subject. But he has the same view of some of the generals and admirals that some of them are really quite interesting and quite thoughtful. And, you know, we usually think of the military guys that they want to bomb everybody. And there certainly when people like that, like Curtis LeMay, uh, insane views and you’re seeing the bomb. But they’re also we’re number people. You’re just names. Couple on the inside who were military figures who were very thought about what? This Awal. They’d seen a lot of death then what bombs and you could do to people in the communities. And they didn’t like water. Yeah, so that I had I came away with respect for some of these old admirals and generals that I was surprised that you know about Wone. Once I learned what they really were talking about, all that wisdom Ms just spent, you know, I talked with Pieter Van Buren and he says, You know what? Nukes air. So horrible that we can trust that even the worst politicians no better than ever to really use them. But it seems like any of that kind of wisdom built up during the Cold War is spent. When I look at the kind of idiocy in terms of, especially in terms of America’s position against Russia, and Eastern Europe right now. And no matter what fight we pick with them, we always pretend that their response is thehe Grecian. You know, like Israel and Palestine or something, and to such a degree. And and you can tell that the people in D. C they really believe it. Everything is Russian aggression. It’s raining, it’s Russian aggression. And there, you know, have terrified themselves into believing they’re really on the defensive as they expand our military alliance right up to their borders and do Kode Ayt Oz against Awal. They’re friendly governments in the region and expand, you know, military presence, Arm up Ukraine and all these things. And Knut recall an NPR interview with a think tank expert who was a former ambassador. And this was in the worst part of the Ukraine war in the aftermath of the coup, a 2014 and he was saying, Yes, we have to arm up Ukraine in this war. We should send them all these Lockheed products and all these things. And the NPR reporter says, Well, okay, so if we make the Kiev government stronger than in the war in the east Well, okay. To what end then what’s next? And he says, Well, we think that if a bunch of dead Russians start coming home in body bags that that will cause the debate to go up like shades of Birns, right? We’re going to scare him. Yeah, And then what? And this guy says yet we’re gonna cause the debate to go up in Russia, the idea being that the angry moms of the dead guys will just be angry at Putin for getting them killed, not may be angry at the U. S. A. For getting them killed and that they’re going to want to back down rather than maybe getting really angry and doubling down. It’s as though the negative possibility is just outside of the realm of possibility. Even though the whole war was the backlash of the coup not going their way, it was supposed to be easy, and it caused a war. Now they’re gonna and you can just see the thinking like this is a former ambassador. This is the brightest of the think tank world is saying we really thought this through. We’re gonna cause their debate to go up when what he’s really saying is he might cause a World war Jatte, you know, So I don’t know. I I don’t trust it. I think it’s sort of like, uh, all these guys. They’re just George W. Bush waiting to blunder us into another catastrophe at any minute. Sort of how I feel about it. Yeah, And I think that the tragedy is, uh, these guys actually believe, but, you know, it’s really out because I think a lot of what you’re saying is true. And they believe this is the way to help the world. Yeah, that’s that’s where they’re coming from. This is gonna do good, president rather than seeing how sure excited some of it is. All right, so it’s ah, greatest story kind of. Ah, is starting a William Appleman Williams who had a lot of this. Eni wrote a book called The Tragedy of American Diplomacy. Because these guys actually believe what they’re doing is gonna great for the world. And what happens is sort of thing you’re talking about because it is just so sure excited in many, many, many areas that it produces a backlash just the opposite of what you want. And that’s also helps explain why so hard to talk them out of any of it because you’re essentially asking them to stop caring about people when you’re asking them to stop bombing people the death. And they just think, How can we abandon them now? You know, we have to keep the war going. We have this about Afghanistan daily, right? Yeah, it’s It’s a genuine It’s genuine tragedy, not a phony Wone. Yeah, and outrage and very costly human life destruction and arms racism. So far, we’ve been lucky that these things have been going off, but you know, But what’s going on in the Indian Pakistan? Maybe the next question? Yeah, I got that right. Um but I’ll let you go with that one. So thank you very much for coming on the show. Gharib really appreciate it. Okay. Thanks. Enjoy talking with you. Okay, guys. Uh, that is American historian. Garc. Alpher. Wits. And he wrote atomic diplomacy, Hiro Sonoma and Potsdam. And also the decision to use the atomic bomb. And if you missed it, we Raan Awene Antiwa dot com a couple weeks back. Ah, but you can find it here at the nation. The war was won before Hiro Sonoma and the generals who dropped the bomb knew it. All right, y’all Thanks. Find me at Libertarian Institute Dot or Ge at scott Kortan dot or Ge antiwar dot com and reddit dot com slash scott Horton Show. Oh yeah, and read my book Fool’s Errand Timed and the War in Afghanistan at Fool’s errand dot us.

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Scott interviews Philip Weiss about Israel’s occupation of Palestine and the way the Palestinian people have been completely deprived of their rights there. Weiss is glad that the recent fiasco around Rashida Tlaib’s and Ilhan Omar’s visit to Israel has brought publicity to the BDS movement, but is baffled that most Americans are either unaware of Israel’s gross abuses, or simply don’t care.

Discussed on the show:

• “Trump is parroting Zionist doctrine: U.S. Jews must be loyal to Israel” (Mondoweiss)
• “Political Upheaval Over Tlaib and Omar Shows the Power of BDS | Common Dreams Views” (Common Dreams)
• “’50-year-old Palestinians… have never lived in freedom their whole lives,’ Rivera says on Fox, defending Tlaib” (Mondoweiss)

Philip Weiss is the long-time editor of Mondoweiss.net. Follow him on Twitter @PhilWeiss.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; Washinton Babylon; Liberty Under Attack Publications; Listen and Think Audio; TheBumperSticker.com; and LibertyStickers.com.

Donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal, or Bitcoin: 1KGye7S3pk7XXJT6TzrbFephGDbdhYznTa.

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Following is an auto-generated transcript of the episode.

sorry I’m late. I had to stop by the wax museum again and did the finger that FDR We know Al Qaeda. Zawahiri is supporting the opposition in Syria. Are we supporting Al Qaeda in Syria? It’s a proud day for America. Ghad Kice, Knut Gnehm syndrome once and for all. Thank you Very I say And I see it again. Bin are trying to simply deny things that just about everybody else except Assn. Fact Saud Die away. Kila Maale Armey Khaleeq Illit Maale We be Awene Beito like, say, I’m Ain Bin Say it. Say it three times the meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world. Then that’s going to be an invasion Arak. Aren’t you guys introducing our friend Phil Weiss? He runs the great blawg Mondo Weiss at Monta weiss dot net. It’s you know, what do you have, like a a tagline or whatever I would say it’s It’s a liberal Jewish anti Zionism. Is that essentially right? Um, we try to you know, we don’t really say we’re Jewish. We did come out of the Jewish community and a lot of us who work. There are a few of us are Jewish, but I It’s more, you know, we’re a little bit more neutral now. News and opinion about Palestine. Israel in the U. S. So? But, yeah, we I come out. I’m sort of the most strongly identified juju, juju, typewriter. You know, I do talk about it a lot. Yeah. I mean, it’s my community have come out of, I feel like I know Itta writer supposed to write about what they know about, um this is all I know about, kind of from being young, you know? Now I’m not young, but whatever. You know, that’s something I know about. So I like to write about Jewish community. Yes, and I think it’s a very powerful community, so no one’s gonna shut me up on that one. Well, and you write about American politics, which you’re also an expert in, Well, Ind Ihsan, everybody you know, I mean, everyone’s got their opinion about Yeah, I I try to study American politics, but, you know, that’s as you and I both know that’s a long study and there are a lot of people engaged in it. And, um, yes, I’m my point of view on American politics and certainly the politics of the Israel lobby. I think that I consider myself expert in I. It’s something I’ve studied. I know a lot of information about it. Um and, ah, you know, I have a strong point of view that the Israel lobby is very runs our foreign policy in the Middle East, but, you know, that’s my point of view. But I can offer evidence to back that up you have. Boy, can you, uh and you know, I recommend or I don’t recommend depending on your choice is signing up for the Monta y Stalin net. Morning email on this is how I, you know, have my morning coffee every morning and ah, I for me, it’s just right. It might be a little much for some, uh, to start your day out every day that way, But it’s such great stuff that you have. And did I neglect to say at the beginning there? Oh, you you sort of alluded to the set. You have many great writers and you know you Ah, you write a lot of great stuff, but you have I don’t know how many, you know, kind of in house writers air regular contributors, but something like 1/2 dozen or a dozen eight or 10 or sometimes But there’s a lot Ghad Khatt. But you know, Scott, there’s a lot going on. I appreciate you’re promoting us. I really appreciate it. But, um, I’m curious to hear what you have to say about the world today. Well, first, I’m gonna ask you about this article. We can catch up on some things. We got a minute. Um, but this piece, we Raan antiwar dot com and I think it’s really important political upheaval over is it to Labott Azeis ao much tv Fitr, Itta Leat Atto Leave Atto, Labott and Omar shows the power of BTS. And that’s boycott divestment and sanctions the movement to boycott Israel. And, um So tell us about this. The obviously this concerning their being disallowed by the Israeli government to take a trip to Palestine and, ah, the politics surrounding that. So can you just guess Start out with filling us in and then telling us your angle here. Well, Scott, just to be clear, do you or your listeners surely aware that Russia Leat Atto leave uh, Congresswoman from Detroit and Ilan Moammar Congresswoman from Minneapolis were stopped by Israel from visiting last week. Probably way Awal. We always saw the headline. Okay, so my argument. So this was a big event in the politics of this issue. These women were kept from visiting days after 75 Congress. People went over on Ah, the Israel lobby, a pax dime and that all the Democrats student applauded for Netanyahu and then two other Democrats who didn’t want to go on that a pack trip said They’re going over to the West Bank and, ah, Rashid Atto leaves Grandmother lives on the West Bank and they were kept from entering it is Israel or Palestine by Netanyahu. So Israel thought, I think that it could get away with this without a lot of attention. Uh, Netanyahu was playing to his base. Trump was surely playing to his, uh, shell Gn Edelson base when he signed off. On it or signaled is a great approval of Netanyahu’s decision. But it’s had a, you know, massive political consequences in my little world. I mean, it’s been a huge headline. It led the news when these women were kept from going in in, in on the nightly news I think it was, You know, which I watch every night, NBC or whatever. It was like the lead item one night or two nights in a row, certainly on PBS and National Public Radio, all these kind of liberal venues. And so from my standpoint, this was ages. Tremendous, wonderful thing that happened. And, uh, I mean, it’s horrible. They didn’t get in, But it was wonderful moment of people seeing Israel for what it is a very undemocratic society. That when Palestinian American and most to Muslim Congresswoman Wana, come see what’s going on with the $3.8 billion a year that we give them to oppress Palestinians. No, they’re not allowed in a pack. They’re allowed to come in. So my point in that article was simply that we have had opposition to the occupation of a lip service variety from the political establishment, the United States for the last 25 30 years of the peace process. Ever since the Palestinian said we will accept a state on 22% of the land. The American political establishment has been more or less for a quote unquote two state solution and all these liberal Zionists and American Democrats have said were against the settlements because they keep the Palestinians from getting a state. But we’re for a Palestinian state and nothing has happened. Israel’s done whatever it’s wanted. It has continued to gobble up that land there has been. I don’t know if this is news, but there’s been no Palestinian state in the last 30 years, despite thes pronounce pronouncements that there’s gonna be one. And, uh so so none of the sort of conventional understanding of how to deal with Israel has worked. And it’s not a surprise the conventional understanding of how to deal with the Jim Crow south or the apartheid South Africa didn’t Didn’t you know political negotiation and dialogue with him doesn’t work. You need pressure on these. Ah, these kind of outlaw operations, thes robe governments. And that’s what you know. Israel is, ah, flouting international law, and there’s one way to address it nonviolently. And that’s the BDS movement. That’s why these women didn’t get in. They support BDS. So my point in this article was yes, it’s a great moment where people are paying a lot of attention. Hey, the last time they paid so much attention. Five years ago, 2200 Palestinians were killed. 500 children were killed. Last year, there were the big headlines when 62 Palestinian protesters were killed at the Gaza fence slaughtered. That’s a terrible thing that’s happened there. I mean, just the number of Palestinians maim the guy. Guys walking around Palestine with Awene crutches. Huu can’t walk anymore. These, you know. Ah, the bloodshed has been enormous. And yes, it has brought some attention to these human rights issues in this siege and blockade on this on Gaza, you know the imprisonment of two million people? Well, here we had to Congress women putting the lens on Palestine in a similar way, getting a lot of attention to Palestine conditions because they endorsed a Non five violent boycott movement. And I just was overwhelmed by that politically and just sort of expressing God bless these women, Foer endorsing that movement. It’s what Rosa Parks did in 1955 in Montgomery, Alabama, when she didn’t think it was right that black people had to sit on the back of the bus. And, you know, profanity lets you know. Ah, expletive deleted. But what Israel is running in the West Bank is a lot worse than was the Montgomery. And, um, it’s a lot like what was happening in South Africa. It’s apartheid, and there’s one way to deal with that. And that’s boycott divestment and sanctions. And it works. So that that was my only point there. And I’m grateful to anti war dot com for picking it up. Yeah, man. Well, we love running this stuff. Um, you know, it’s essentially news analysis. There’s some opinion in here, but what it is is you’re really Yeah, Your opinion is just leading Yukio take the correct angle on what the right questions are to get him to hear, you know? And so you know, essentially what you’re getting to, you know, overall, I don’t know if you exactly say it this way. Is you’re talking about the success of BTS as essentially a publicity stunt Oo cause a public relations campaign because, you know, I forgot who wrote this, but I read recently where someone it may have been. You said no one imagines that Israel is gonna be cut off from global capital, right? That, you know, this is this is not an existential threat to Israel’s economy. What it is is it’s existential threat to their public relations that their poor little Israel besieged. By the way, when BTS raises the question of why would have decent person as opposed to some Nazi? Why would a decent person want to boycott Israel? If you don’t know the answer to that? That’s a pretty obvious question. Why would a guy like you wanna boycott Israel? And Oh yeah, Goa question. I haven’t Ansar. Well, see, it’s like this. And then you tell him a little bit of history that they don’t understand. And now they’re on your side and that’s why they’re terrified. Is because this is it’s not just disruptive of the narrative. It’s a superior, simple and honest truth here. I think you’re right. That’s very helpful framing, and I left out that piece to which is a BDS drives these people haywire. Zenko Israel is going. They think it’s an existential threat and you just framed it right? Why is it an extension existential threat? Because maybe people you know open their eyes little, but they go around saying this is anti Semitism and Des legitimization of the Jewish state and destruction of Israel and all this kind of hysterical stuff and, you know Ah, it’s because it really does represent a for the first sort of successful counter narrative in the West. And I Yeah, I think you’re right. I think it’s huge. And, um, it’s I think it will catch on. Yeah. Now I got to say this for my own libertarian point of view that I’m Foer be Ind De but not s now. I think if you’re a Palestinian, then you ca Gn sanction Awal you want If you have any power to I guess you don’t. Um but that would be self defense. But for the rest of us, I think of that is, you know, aggression against the Israelis. Trying to prevent someone else from trading with them is a lot different than boycotting and divesting, you know? Okay, but what about what about the $3.8 billion that is going from your pocket and mine to the Israelis every year in aid? Well, so what if the opposite of that is stopping it Not putting three trained $3 billion worth of sanctions on them. You know what I mean? I don’t want to have an aggression against him. I just want to see that you get all the you can get off the bandwagon. When it comes to that, you got a long ways to go 3.8 billion that’s pouring out of this country. Israel. That is completely ridiculous. I forgot. I read somewhere about its 12th. There’s some kind of thing that I’m no good at arithmetic, but but be Ind De and yet PR, That’s what it is. It’s a giant question raising campaign. You know, what’s the problem, anyway? I thought the Israelis were our friends. What’s the big deal? There is a big deal. There is one. You don’t get to see it on TV. But now that you’ve asked, there are people who have an answer for you. And so that’s again like you’re saying it is an existential threat, not in a financial way, but in a manner of completely undermining the credibility of their, you know, puppet show their charade. There hasbara campaign about Huu Zuman Huu over there and how they’re getting away with it. I love it, I love it. And I’d say that you know, to uh, you know, Otpor, What you’re saying someone gets to say, Hey, are you trying to delegitimize Israel? And I think that the fair Ansar from BDS Advocates is to say yes. We are trying to delegitimize the idea of a Jewish state. Uh, we don’t I mean, not that we lived there, but, you know, we don’t want to live in a religious state in the United States, and we don’t want to prop up a religious state that’s so obnoxious to, you know, the 50% of its subjects who are not of that religion, you know, Why should we call that a democracy? It’s not a democracy. So, yes, we’re delegitimizing the idea that this is a democracy. So I think, Well, I’m repeating myself. Yeah, you know what? I want to raise this thing, man. It came up one time with Ramzy Baruta, friend of the show, and I think you re publish him from time time. You must know Ramzy. Yeah, yeah, Palestinian and great writer and teacher and everything. And so at some point, we kind of been through this exercise a few times where I’m saying to Ramzy. Yeah, but what if they had not, you know, colonized the West Bank. What if they had said Okay, you know what? The West Bank and Gaza, You can have a separate state and right of return. Well, not to your grandma’s village, but you can come back to a free and prosperous and independent West Bank and Gaza Strip and have a decent life. And settle for that on your 22% of the land that they said they would settle. Foer. Um And so, you know, maybe they could have a Jewish democracy that maybe 48 the Gn Aq but is a fate accompli. They did succeed in removing all of those Muslims and Christians from the land and creating this 80 20 Super Dooper majority of Jews inside what we call Israel proper and all that. So So, jeez, Ramzy Baruta in the counterfactual. Couldn’t things have been, you know, maybe, except 48 But the real problem 67. Maybe that’s kind of a way to say and then his Ansar is like, Yeah, but look at the reality. And this is Zionism. There’s Natta, Zionism where the counterfactual kicked in and they ever allowed the Palestinians toe have peace or independence or the slightest bit of dignity this whole time. And so you could say, Wouldn’t it be nice? But the proof is in the reality that these people are living to this day, for God’s sake, it’s almost 2020 and we’re still talking about this. The two state solution. It already is one state. They already annexed the West Bank back in 1967 were just Bin and denial this whole time, letting get away with pretending that someday they’re going to give it up when we all know that that’s not true. No, I think. Look, I think that’s a brilliant exchange that you’re conveying to your listeners because our side, my side, is often accused Assn. Of being nihilists or utopians because we are saying it goes back to 48 and you are saying international opinion said, Let’s make this a 67 problem and the Palestinians accepted that. And you know what? I agree with you. I agree that there’s a lot of arrangements in the world that are unjust or that reflect historic and justice, that there’s a limit to how much we can do about and the world came to that consensus that this is what’s going on, and the Palestinians accepted it. Amazingly, they accepted this idea of a Palestinian state on that, you know, small mental land that less than 1/4. But as Ramses pointed out to you, I mean that that you know. So I’m not a nihilist. Had there been a really viable two state solution around when I got engaged in this issue, in fact, I did support it. When I came in, I said, Hey, look, let’s just get out of this conflict This consensus exists. Let’s just grab it palate, you know? But Israel has destroyed the two state solution. It’s just that’s the truth of the matter, and it and and I agree with Ramzy to that’s what Zionism looks like. Zionism was not happy with. Ah, you know that 78% and this will look like in retrospect. I think when Israel, ultimately Palestine, become a democracy ultimately, uh, and potentially a lot of bloodshed. Let’s not be naive about this, that this is not gonna be an easy road, but when when ultimately, you know, there’s a more democratic society there, people look back on it say you could have had your Jewish state just like what you said, Scott. You could. It was on the table and you folks wanted more. You were greedy and you know it’s it’s gonna turn into this amazing historic moment. I mean, the whole thing’s historic, but I think they did. They blew it. That an opportunity. And they blew it. Yeah, well, it’s such a basic thing, too. Awal morality aside, simply descriptive, not normative terms here, possession of the West Bank. But they kept all the people they didn’t do. And they actually did expel another couple 100,067. I learned, you know, relatively recently. But they didn’t finish the job, quote unquote. But they did take possession of the land. It’s sort of like the Indians with the Hindu nationalist. They hate the Muslim so much so they annexed outright all of Kashmir for everybody’s Ind puzzle. Um, well, does that seem kind of counterproductive toward your exclusivist goals here? Why can’t people think this stuff through? And the answer is just cause they want the land and the Palestinian people congest goto hell, some Some way or another, they’re going to get out of the way. And the Landay Cem area will belong to the Israelis. Okay, but so, Scott, I mean, we were expressing this outrage in AA and sort of marveling that this they would even have this hubris to do this. What? What likelihood isn’t there? Ah, riel likelihood that they will be able to achieve that kind of passive quiet ethnic cleansing in which, um, you know, they make life unbearable for Palestinians in the West Bank and they’re forced into these banners, stands or into Jordan or whatever. I mean, provided the right crisis. Yes. I mean, who’s going to stop? The Americans will let him do it. And do you think at Americans of any political stripe will let them do it? Yeah. Americans in power? No, Eni president and his Cabinet would let them do it right. Yukio Natta, Do you think there’s any change on the rise in there? Well, so that’s the next topic, right? Is Trump versus the Democrats in this hilarious and maddening and and and entertaining crack up in American politics here, where this thing is falling apart in the most hilarious of ways? Really? I’m sure you read the Beinarts piece in the forward, where he quotes 45 very prominent Zionists like Thomas Friedman and Aaron, David Miller and others saying, Oh, no, it’s a crisis. The bipartisan consensus over Israel wants no matter what and never so much is squeaking about. It is breaking and and you have the most cynical S. O. B is president, right? Like this guy who accused Jeb Bush of impotence to get elected like this guy who is absolutely shameless, who’s willing to a, you know, try to exploit the Democrats division and used the so called Scud Ghad thes two Muslim women’s and their women in their fellow travelers here against Pelosi and the rest of them and all of this on Ga. Anyway, you talk now. Isn’t it funny, Isn’t it something? What do you think is gonna happen? Well, I mean, I’m excited. I mean, ah ah, you know, I regard this is a great thing that, uh, the policy might actually be bipartisan. That there may be by Excuse me, There may be partisan conflict over this. It’s kind of like I feel a little bit like, you know, what’s my if I’m If I’m against Israel’s Ah, ethnic cleansing and its oppression of Palestinians. What’s my address in American politics? I’ve had no address in American politics, thanks to good liberal Zionist like J. Street and Union Refer Foer, Mme. Judea, Cem Awal the big Jewish organizations. That’s a policy Awene Israel Our support for Israel must be bipartisan. Nancy Pelosi. This capital will crumble and fall into the ground before Democrats walk away from Israel. And yeah, it’s funny because here you have four Congress. Women are actually two two and 1/2 expressing Cem serious misgivings about Israel for the first time you have Congress people endorsing BDS two of them. And you know Trump is making political hay out of it and painting the Democratic Party as anti Israel and you anti Semitic to which is served but anti Israel on the basis of these two people and, you know, from your lips to God’s ears Donald Trump. Well, I hope I have a political address for my feelings about Israel, and maybe I will get one because, God knows, the base of the Democratic Party supports taking away military aid from ah, an apartheid state. I mean, you have 56% of Democrats who support removing money. American Ayt because they do not end the occupation, they continue to build settlements. So that’s a great. In my view. It’s regret that part is a great thing. Some of his rhetoric has been very concerning, you know, you know, as you if it is, it’s disturbing some of the stuff he says. But yeah, he’s disrupting something in what I hope is a good way. Yeah. Oh, he’s a sledgehammer. I mean, well, so a couple of things here. I mean, um, first of all, did you see the Dan Dresner quote? This may be the first time I’ve quoted Danl Dresner. Um wow. Hi. On Twitter was Nai Maale Id probably plagiarized all this from your website anyway. Oh, look for Dresdner right now. Goa Awene Yahia Awal. So he had this great quote where he said, Is Donald Trump an anti Semite or a file Oo Sem might. And the answer is that he believes in all of the worst, most bigoted stereotypes about Jews. But he thinks they’re all great attributes. He thinks they’re all positive. And so that’s why he’s and then The example, of course, is where he’s saying, Neo Eni, American Jew, which I guess by the way American Jews vote Democrat like 80 20 or 80 85 15 or something like that, he says. Eni, American Jew votes Democrat is disloyal to Israel. And then so everybody just how ls that? How dare he implied that Jews in America have any loyalty whatsoever to Israel, which is a little bit against the rest of the narrative most of the time, which is that American Jews better toe the line and better support this thing because Israel is the most important project of Awal, right, right? Yeah, and that’s the piece I’m most proud of this week that I did, which is, um, I mean, I have to be a self promoter for a moment. I pointed out that when Trump said, American Jews are being disloyal to Israel and everyone’s so shocked and so upset by this and yeah, it’s or you know, he could be weaponizing some, you know, anti Jewish feeling out there about disloyalty, it whatever. Nonetheless, he’s echoing right wing Zionists and even liberal Zionists Huu for generations now have said you must not. We must unconditionally support Israel, so none of these liberal Zionist organizations is ever the other critical of Israel. But would they ever say American age should be removed from Israel? Know, we’ve got a bipartisan support for Israel. So that requires a certain loyalty on the part of Joost toward Israel. And some of the statements of right wing Zionist are explicitly You must not criticize Israel. You must be you, you Elliot Abrams, who works in the Trump administration. Jews stand apart from any society they live in. Except Israel were part this is Zionism. Okay, Zion Nai Minh not quoting Abrams Now, Zionism beliefs. There is a Jewish people. It is a Jewish nation. It is centered in Israel because he could be just as easily exactly quoting Cem vicious anti Semite making that same statement, right, Cem, Ehren Leat that stuff. Yeah. So it’s a vision of the world. And Trump was that going in so well? Yeah, man, Um, and I like how you know you use in your example here. Um Jeffrey Goldberg Huu. All right, He’s a kind of gone silent or something for a while here. But there was one that I think he quoted here where during the Iran nuclear deal we’re hosting. American Jews are still who are supporting the president of the United States that most of them voted for in his attempt Id diplomacy with Iran here that they’re stabbing Israel in the back in the worst kind of terms, calling them Kappos in this kind of thing, right? Yeah, exactly. And you know, Dershowitz did the same thing to Richard Goldstone when he criticized Israel in the Goldstone report. He called him a traitor and, you know, an evil man. So you know, Trump when people are saying, Oh, Trump was being so anti Semitic and this disloyal thing No, He’s talking to these right wing, you know, fascistic Zionists who say you gotta be loyalty Israel and he’s hearing matinees. He’s echoing it so well, yeah. The other funny thing about this, of course, is that Eni Israeli patriot should hate their government. I mean, that’s what a patriot is supposed to do. Oppose their government, right? Isn’t that what we do every day is try to save our country from the people in power over it? And why would anyone conflate these things? What could possibly be worse again for the idea of the 80 20 Super Dooper majority Jewish Democratic state, then the government that rules it, continuing the policy that they’ve had for the last half a century in colonizing the rest off Palestinian territory. There, the the counterfactual Scott is that that from the beginning this has been a Sparta. Israel has been a Sparta society, a militarized society surrounded by enemies. They constantly tell us they’re in the toughest neighborhood in the world. Maybe that tough neighborhood has a little bit to the fact that had to do with the fact that your bomb in Syria, your bomb and limit on your bombing Arak, you know. Okay, whatever Israel it lives. Surrounded by enemies, they elect generals as prime ministers or people with blood on their hands that become prime ministers there, sport of society, they There’s a kind of a national psychosis about, you know, us versus them. So I don’t think the definition of patriot there, I think, is pretty distorted. And that’s the terrible thing about American Jews is that we’re distant from that. We should be telling them. Look, my my publisher, who went to is his Bin Israel 25 times and went the 1st 15 times when he’s a young man hoping to get into Israeli politics someday. He came home 22 years ago and said, Mom, there’s something wrong when my friends are cousins are our friends go to the movie theater and they have to get a gun before they go to the movie theater. You know, they’re always arming themselves Everywhere they go. I don’t like what I’m seeing there. He saw that. It’s obvious when you go over there, that place is hyper militarized and, you know, surrounded by M and enemies and it’s, Ah, us versus them And it’s just so the Patriots, you know, you expected American Joost would have a little bit of distance from that and be able to criticize it. But no, they haven’t been able to. Yeah, well, it’s the same thing. Is anything right? It takes, I guess, the people who are literally disengaged from Eni decision making in it to just see it from the third person without a vested interest without a personal interest and just say, you know, hey, I could advise the USA to make their terror war as absolutely minimalist as possible and withdraw their troops from the Middle East instead of waging the 20 year terror war and killing two million people and ruining everything for everyone for the next few generations over there, that hate, uh, you know, you don’t that sounds like Patriot talked to me, even though that wasn’t the way it was portrayed back in 2000 and two. It’s the same kind of thing I think you could be from anywhere. You could be anybody and look at Israel’s policy and say, This is quite self defeating What you guys are doing here according to your own stated goals. I mean, that’s how a Ehud Barac talks. He says, Jeez, my policy has been suicidal for our society. Yeah, well, I agree with that. You know, You know, you don’t have to be on their side. Even at Awal Thio. Recognize that they’re sabotaging their own interests. Okay, but Scott what? We study American politics, you know, American politics also it can be I mean, our Pawlyk you’re saying that’s the reasonable man’s approach, Hormuz. A reasonable woman’s approach. I agree with you. But how much sway of reasonable people had him the last 20 years in foreign policy making he’s Int Amb action and you know, globalism. And, you know, uh, inner liberal interventionism. Neo Cannes Awal these factions that basically love military interventions overseas and run out the defense budget. They’ve been pretty Wone Natta Rowda enemies. So they’re back to Russia again. So no. Yeah, I’m not trying to be too hopeful necessarily, but it’s just that at some point, the gap between the narrative and the truth. Cannes Awene Lee be so large for so long before there’s some sort of correction coming, you know? I don’t know. Yeah, which is a lot of what Trump is played on. You know, uh, I continue to believe that Trump, uh, you know, more than any Russian interference, he got elected because of war weary counties in Michigan, Pennsylvania, and, um, Wisconsin. You know, he won those states by a narrow margin. And those air three places that we’re really hit hard by these wars in terms of ah, local sacrifice and people don’t like these wars, huh? Surprise. Hold on. Just one second. Be right back. So you’re constantly buying things from amazon dot com Maor. That makes sense. They bring it right to your house. So what you do, though, is click through from the link in the right hand margin at Scott Horton dot or Ge, and I’ll get a little bit of a kickback from Amazon’s into the sale. Won’t cost you a thing. Nice Louay To help support this show again. That’s right there in the margin at Scott Horton dot or Ge. Hey, guys, check it out. Investigative reporter Ken Silverstein is launching a fund raising campaign to support his writing of a new book about Marco Rubio and effort to overthrow the government of Venezuela. This will be no defense of the Maduro regime, which Silverstein opposes. But it’s certain to be devastating to its American enemies, who are operating far outside of their constitutional purview. Helps support Kenzo effort to get to the bottom of the interest behind America’s plot to overthrow the government of Venezuela at Patriot in dot com slash d. C. Babylon. Hey, guys, you got to check out the bumper sticker dot com. You play in a band, you need stickers. Yugo the bumper sticker dot com. Maybe have a business and you need stickers. Yugo to the bumper sticker dot com They’ll take care of all this stuff. I created the company back. I don’t know, generation Goa. I sold it to Rick McGinnis. And he’s done a great job with the company ever since they got what you needed over there at the bumper sticker dot com. Now, before we get to Huu Israel’s bombing this week Ah, I wanted to point out your piece this morning about Geraldo Rivera. Oh, yeah, yeah, the Jerry Springer of my childhood, I guess. All right. He’s really grown up here something. He’s the voice of reason on Fox news. And, um, I guess I didn’t really realize this, but, uh, he’s a self identified Jewish Zionist and he said he just probably displayed his star of David tattoo, which I thought that was against the rules. But what I know about the rules, But anyway, yeah, I don’t know what I know either, but but it s so he went. So what happened was he was arguing with Andrew McCarthy from the National Review there. Who’s good on Russia? Ge Ayt and nothing else. Um and so But tell us because they were arguing about the Congress women here and it’s Fox news. Of course so the bias was baked in at a high temperature. But, hey, he’s a regular and they can count on him. He’s allowed to speak his mind on their cause. He is who he is. And so then he breaks it to them. Cem things that they don’t ever hear anybody say, I think Can you explain a little bit about how that went? I just think it goes back to the point that you made early in this discussion, which is that, um what I characterized as political upheaval. All this attention on the Rashid Atto LeBeau Moammar Banning has has caused people to open their eyes a little and ask a question. And so here you had the usual B s Hasa Baruta about Israa being such a great Democratic place. And Rivera just, you know, the best thing about what he said from my standpoint was he said, You know, I have friends on the West Bank. They can’t travel freely, they can’t even bring their relatives. And when they get married, this is an occupied country. This Congress Wone from Detroit, could not go and visit her grandmother. And then he said, Hey also said that these people have no rights for 52 years. You have 50 year old Palestinians who have grown up with no rights and the most brilliant thing, he said. In this whole whole discussion, which only a Jew can get away with some of the Jewish ancestry. I just think that if it were not Israel and it was not the Jews, if this was any other country that took this action, we would all be outraged, Rivera said. And I think he’s right. I think that Israel is always the special case that gets away with everything and because it’s got this special status in the United States because of the Israel lobby, for whatever reason you want. But no, they get away with this and he was calling him out, and I thought it was kind of great, even though he is a wild man. Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, I really do think that we have going for us. It does matter that, um the truth is so contrary. Typical narrative here that when people just have a chance to finally understand Hey, the reason they’re always talking about Maybe creating a Palestinian state is because there is not one. Sometimes they make it seem like it’s the country next door already, but it kind of is, but it’s also conquered and occupied. And so, no, it’s not the Palestinian Authority’s Natta government. They’re like prison trustees under the control of the Israelis and the Americans and the whole thing. And once people start understanding it, I constantly I think, the I’ve seen the the A little bit of education goes such a long way when it comes to Israel, Palestine because people just confused. Why would anyone take the Palestinian side? Aren’t they the brown, Muslim, scary terrorist side? And then when you just explain that yet no man, that’s not it. These people are being treated totally unfairly. They Goa I didn’t know that. But now that you’re explaining it to me, they’ve been under occupation for how many decades in a row. Now I see. Okay, I might throw a rock at a tank, too. These are not invaders with rocks, these air defenders. I understand. You know it’s not that hard, but you just have to have a chance to be exposed to it, you know? But that’s where I again I’m always confused Khuzai live inside this world. But you know, as you say, it’s not that hard. We’ve been having this discussion for many years. You and me, It did. It did. Didn’t take us going a grad school or going to seminars or, you know, T Ge Ain this understanding it’s a little bit obvious. Where is the consciousness, right? How Where are we? In the consciousness raising in the United States. How dumb and ignorant are people of this and certainly among the elites. They can’t be ignorant about this. They know what’s going on. Hey, it’s a crackup. I mean, this this election season. Rejoice. I mean, this is because the leftists are gonna back down on this Talaa Labott leave whatever she’s not gonna say. Yeah, forget my grandma anyway, because I see which way the wind blows here thing. This fight is not over. It’s not going to end. And Donald Trump is going to continue to ruthlessly exploit that. Everybody knows that the Democratic Party is run by anti Semites Huu Wana. Destroy is what is gonna happen with that because it is so not true. And yet even the kernel of truth in it is the kind of thing that you know is an irresistible force by the new young upstarts versus the old, decrepit establishment that has no honest leg to stand on other than we need donor money, Right? But rather than an honest assessment of the situation oh, we have to support the status quo. Where else? What? The Palestinians were gonna invade Israel and destroy it. Is that it? Well, but Scott let let’s let’s just be, ah, I want to be Wone want to sound Wone hopeful note before this discussion ends. And that is, I mean, not that this is hasn’t been a lot of hopeful notes, but one thing that’s realistically hopeful and that is you have seen Bernie Sanders and Pete Buddha, Ceku, Ge and a little bit, um, Elizabeth Warren. And I think even, um, Kirsten Gillibrand asked about Israel’s conduct, saying there should be consequences. And the Taleb Moammar thing reinforced that view. There should be consequences. So we have a real possibility that a Democratic nominee, apart from Eni caricature or wedge driving, uh, and hysteria tea party style, you know what I mean, flipping the script there. But apart from Eni Isdell areas Republicans are trying to make about Democrats in Israel. We may see on that debate stage before the convention next year we may see Democrats and guess what we believe in stripping Israel of military aid when they do this stuff. Yes, we believe that that would be a huge step if you have mainstream Democrats saying that and I think we’re starting to see that happen. And Ghad again. God bless Ilan Omarsson Ersin receded to leave for staking out a Princip filled position. Natta Radical position on, you know, human rights violation, right? Yeah. And you know, I kind of regret that it’s these two because they make pretty poor poster children for it because it makes it just seem like, Well, you know, whoever has a vested interest just argues their own side. But at the same time, it really does open the argument up for a lot of others. And I saw, I don’t know, the guy’s name, but a Democrat from Washington State or something like that came out and said, Well, I don’t know, he had a very white guy. Gnehm, I’m sorry. I don’t know what it is, but, uh, well, you know, maybe we need to call off this funding. I’m not gonna be pushed around by some little Katrin. Fantastic. And, you know, the other part of that is, you know, unfortunately or not I mean, you we we want people to care about this issue. You know, they should care for a lot of reasons. The United States, including that we’ve been in all these wars that in part because of concern for Israel’s security. But, you know, the Jews and the Zionists really cared about Israel. And Rashid Itta Leat really cares about Palestine because their grandmothers there and, you know, God bless her. And I just think that, you know, sometimes, you know, it’s it’s the engaged factions and you gotta have people engaged. As Yousef Monir says of the U. S campaign for Palestinian rights, when they say, What are you boycotting? Ah, so De Arabiya, he said. I would if there was organized boycott. But guess what? I can’t visit my wife’s family in Israel, so that’s why you know. So it’s that kind of thing that Ah, I feel that people were engaged on these questions. You know that that’s often the people are gonna lead us. And you wanted to talk a little bit about Hiran bombing the Shiite crescent lately or what? Ah, you know, um, it’s such a beautiful day here, but I do. I am really curious about I just I’m really curious about what’s going on in France with Trump saying he’s gonna maybe even talk to Rouhani. I just don’t know what is going on and, I don’t know, understand why? And I think Israel maybe going nuts right now because of that. And, you know, look what Israel did. Wone Trump said he was thinking of withdrawing from Syria. You remember that? Yeah, they just cancelled it. Yeah, he canceled that one in a hurry. So how long before he cancels this impulse on his part? So and I don’t know. I mean, I’m not willing to bet that Rouhani would even agree to go. I mean, they’ve been at this point, they said a lot of times, and their policy seems to Neo try to wait him out and see if they can get the next guy now, because you’d be crazy to be them and deal with him at this point. I mean, what is he gonna offer? How far down this ladder is he gonna climb for them at this point? You know Hadar Andrei Point Because they had a good deal. I mean, why would you walk away from a good deal? You know, Briton Eni Europa about, um, how Rand really did get the job off being the go between with the reef, the foreign minister and he offered a reef a meeting in the Oval Office with Trump Enzi. Arif said Okay, well, let me take it back to the bosses and see what they say. And before he could even get their respond, at least Trump had gone on TV and denounced Hiran 10 ways so completely ruined it. So I don’t know if somebody else put him up to that. He just did that. His own self Orif. He even knows what day it is or what is going on over there, man. But listen, we should mention real quick here, make sure and get it on the record. And people should understand this because it’s so important as we know. The Israelis have been backing Al Qaeda and Alll Id groups in Syria for many years as their government has admitted Andrei have also been outright attacking Hezbollah and so called at least Iranian targets inside Syria for many years. Right? But recently, And he can read up on this at antiwar dot com news dot antiwar dot com where Jason Ditz is on the case. But also, it’s really, I think The Jerusalem Post has been taking the lead on this, that Israel has been bombing Iraq. They have been attacking Iranian backed Shiite militias, the very same ones that Donald Rumsfeld used in his El Salvador option to fight the Sunni insurgency. The very guys that America made into the Iraqi army that still rules Arak Ki Shia stand on this day in a war that we did, at least in major part Foer not just Israel, but Netanyahu’s faction of the Likud Party on his wishes there and his Neo con friends who did this thing. And here we are, after Rakoff or two and Iraq War three, both for the Shiite side, and we have Israel bombing the guys that we put in power there. Amazing, amazing and they Ind. Netanyahu says that he’s going to start bombing the Houthis in Yemen, too, because Now, after four and 1/2 years of war, the Iranians air stepping up support for their proven efforts in the field There. So and you know, again what What is the America? What is the proper America and is much inasmuch as there is a regional power struggle between Israel and Iran. You know, what is the American place in that? Unbelievable. To think that we should be on one side and that are being so engaged in it. I just think it’s crazy. Yeah, should be sailing home is the only correct Ansar, Joost. Hey, listen, I love talking with you and Eilat Andriy Manan going every day you and the whole crew over there, so thank you very much. Appreciate it. Okay, man. Well, thanks again. I love talking to you. Okay, guys, that is the great Philip Weiss. He’s at Mondo weiss dot net. And, uh, he’s got Trump is parroting Zionist doctrine that us Jews must be loyal to Israel. He’s got political upheaval over to leave, and Omar shows the power of Bp s. He’s got, um, 50 year old Palestinians have never lived in freedom. That’s Geraldo Rivera. Defending reality from the narrative on Fox News and tons of other great stuff like that. Monta y start Nic Awal Raan Chehl Thanks, Find Me at Libertarian Institute Dot or Ge at scott Kortan dot or Ge antiwar dot com and reddit dot com slash scott Horton Show. Oh yeah, and read my book Fool’s Errand Timed and the War in Afghanistan at Fool’s errand dot us.

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Jacob Hornberger explains why the American president has become a democratically elected dictator, largely through the president’s power to manage the economy by threatening businesses, negotiating trade agreements with foreign countries, and issuing executive orders that impact the way private companies run their businesses. Donald Trump has put this on display the way few previous presidents ever have, but his protectionist policies are also a big part of what got him elected by middle-American workers who feel left behind by the so-called “Obama recovery.”

Discussed on the show:

• “Donald Trump, Democratic Dictator” (Future of Freedom Foundation)
• “Why No Congressional Investigation into Epstein’s Intelligence Connections?” (Future of Freedom Foundation)
• National Security and Double Government
• “Our Enemy, the State” (Mises Institute)

Jacob Hornberger is the founder and president of the Future of Freedom Foundation. He’s written numerous books on freedom, peace, and the JFK assassination. Follow him on Twitter @JacobHornberger.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; Washinton Babylon; Liberty Under Attack Publications; Listen and Think Audio; TheBumperSticker.com; and LibertyStickers.com.

Donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal, or Bitcoin: 1KGye7S3pk7XXJT6TzrbFephGDbdhYznTa.

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Following is an auto-generated transcript of the episode.

sorry I’m late. I had to stop by the wax museum again and give the finger that f d r. We know Al Qaeda. Zawahiri is supporting the opposition in Syria. Are we supporting Al Qaeda in Syria? It’s a proud day for America. Ghad Kice, Knut Gnehm syndrome once and for all. Thank you Very. I say it. I see it again. Bin are trying to simply deny things just about everybody else except as fact Saud died way Kila, Bayh, Armey Khaleeq Illing Maale way Bilgin Cnet like say I’m a Bin Say it, say it three times the meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world. Then that’s going to be an invasion. All right, you guys introducing Jacob Hornberger from the future of Freedom Foundation He sits founder and president and he writes every day at f f f dot or Ge slash ble Aug Welcome back to the show. How you doing? It’s an honor and a pleasure to be with you, Scott. Doing fine, Thank you. Great man. Happy to have here lots of stuff to cover today. First of all, are you running for president as the Libertarian Party candidate or not. Well, let’s just say that I’m contemplating the possibility have gone to I don’t know, seven or 89 state conventions in the spring to kind of get the lay of the land and to deliver a talk. My philosophy on the title of talk is that hearing the principal is everything. And, um so I’m contemplating the possibility to answer your question. All right, Well, can you give us a timeframe of when we might expect to find out? Uh, no. But I mean, you know, keep in mind that this this this political cycle where people announced a year two and advances around Otim Pillay new phenomenon in me by the time you know, January rolls around everybody’s Awal, burnt outboard and so forth. I mean, when when John Kennedy announced for president, he didn’t he didn’t do until November of the preceding year. That was what was just standard. And so there’s really Akkad. I don’t see any reason why any of these candidates Oorah. Nancy now is compared to November, December, January. There’s just No. 2 May. There’s no reason for it all. I think people get sick and tired of this kind of endless running for president that goes on in this country. Yeah, well, I agree with that, but I don’t know, it seems like all the other candidates are already in it Andar, ronin and things like that. So? Well, as you know, timing is extremely important in this game. And so yeah, I’m contemplating the possibility. Like I said, I’ve been to several state conventions, give him talks, interacted with a lot of people and and, uh, yeah, e. I found it a very rewarding and gratifying process since I started doing that last spring. All right, good deal. Now, First of all, let’s talk about trade because I want to talk about immigration. But I also want talk about trade, and I think trade is more immediately in the news here. And I’m a couple days behind on the news, but you may have seen where Trump was tweeting. I hereby order American corporations to come home from China to bring their manufacturing home from China. And then later his staff clarified that Oh, yeah. No, I mean, he can’t order people knew that he was just saying that he’s ordering them toe look into it or something. But anyway. Um, he said we don’t need China, especially their Moorhouse arm than good, with all the intellectual property, a steel and the rest, and that we’re better off without them. And they’re putting on Cem new higher tariffs up to 30% with at the same time, he’s saying the feathers are better. Lower interest Ayt rates in order to stimulate the economy. At the same time, he’s putting on the Smoot Hawley tariff and trying to grind as much of it is a candle. Waal halt. And I don’t know, I just figured I’d let you start talking about that. How’s that for the form of a question? You got anything to say? Question. Because you hit the nail on the head. I mean, this guy’s trade war, really, I think, says so much about Donald Trump. As I put in my block posted today on Monday. Uh, he he is a democratically elected dictator. Ons people sometimes think Oo well in a democracy. You can’t have a dictator cause he’s democratically elected, but that’s not true. You can elect the person and then vest them, or they vest themselves with dictatorial powers, and that’s what he’s done and you’re absolutely right. When he said that he was ordering everybody American businesses to get out of China to stop doing business with China, it was out of anger because the Chinese air not bowing to his dictates. And so they’re retaliating with tariffs of their own. And so he got angry in this peak, he said, Man, I want I’m ordering you guys get out here like he’s the commander in chief of the American private sector. Well, he’s not, and he’s just the duly elected president. But he thinks he’s a dictator. And while his staff made it may have tried Thio walk. Bet that statement back. He didn’t. He actually cited the law in 1977 that Congress enacted that delegate Id unconstitutionally Illit and illegally his power to do this type of thing. As long as he cites the two magic words National Security and Trump even said that he says, Look at this law. I do have the authority to do this well, this is classic dictatorial conduct, and it’s not the only thing time he’s done it noticed that he just raises these tariffs. He started this entire trade war. Scott on his own. Now we live in a system of governmental system where Congress Omnex laws. That’s the way it was intended to Bayh, including tax laws and a tear of his attacks on the American people. It’s a sales tax on imported goods. And he didn’t go to Congress and say, Hey, would you pass this law imposing tariffs on the American people? He just unilaterally does it himself. He does the same thing with sanctions, and the bar goes like Iran and North Korea. This this man is showing how far this country is gone in the direction of dictatorial conduct. Yeah, but he’s gonna save our economy. Yeah, I mean that that’s essentially you say that because that concept that the president’s job is to manage the economy is so ingrained in both Democrats and Republicans noticed the Democratic response to this, especially among the presidential candidates. You don’t see them really going after him on this trade war. I mean, they may throw a little barb here in a little bar Beirt, but they’re not going at it in a liberty level of fundamental level that says Americans have a right to travel wherever they want to trade with whomever they want. That’s the essence of a free society which necessarily means unilateral free trade. Liberate the American people to travel and trade wherever they want. Well, Trump is over here saying, Well, I have the job. Is president to be the elected representative of American businesses? Well, who elected him to be an agent of business is doing business overseas? Nobody elected him to do that. But that’s the That’s the mindset of both E and Republicans and Democrats. So the Democrats are sitting back saying, Oh, wow, the economy started to falter here, and they’re taking the position now that they would be better managers of the economy that Trump. And Trump’s getting desperate because he sees it. A recession is on the horizon here. Well, the hero question is, why should a president be managing an economy? Why can’t people Nas Leat? Why can’t the president just leave people free to manage their own economic affairs? That’s where the libertarian philosophy comes in. Hang on just one second. Hey, guys, I got to tell you about Wall Street window dot com. It’s the great Mike’s Wansa Gn ah, he made a killing on wall Street back in the day, and now he sells advice for reasonable prices. Do you need to know what to do to protect your assets? Wall Street Window, Dakar Hey, guys, I know you’re going to love Will Greg’s new book We Just published at the Libertarian Institute. No quarter. The Ravings of William Norman. Greg. It’s wonderful. It’s terrible. It’s devastating. Yul Laugh. You’ll get angry. Yul Ms Him. You’ll be inspired to Fight for Freedom with Perfect Cover Art by Scott Alberts and a brilliant introduction by Will’s great friend and protege, Thomas are bedlam. It is a fitting legacy for a brilliant man and nearly tireless defender of liberty. Get no quarter the ravings of William Norman Grigg in paperback or Kindle on amazon dot com. All right, now. So here’s the deal, though part of the reason that the American people hate the Bush Clinton post Cold War consensus is because of NAFTA and GATT and W. T. O. And the most favored trade relationship with China and the giant sucking sound to places where labor is cheaper and Americans losing good paying blue collar jobs. You know, because we went from a protectionist, a pretty protectionist system to not much protectionism almost overnight. It was really a shock to a lot of people, and they never had a choice before. This time they actually had a choice and they elected a guy who was against that. In fact, I think if the Democrats have nominated Bernie Sanders, who agrees with Trump about trade with China in many ways anyway representing the labor union, also the supply side here, not the consumers Ah, I think he would’ve beat Trump because he would. He had that one big issue in common with Trump, but without a lot of the other baggage, and the rest of his baggage was. I promised to give you rich people’s money, and that probably would have gotten him elected. Uh, you know, unlike Hillary. But anyway, um, so there’s a huge backlash here. I mean, that’s how he got the job. There’s a huge backlash against this free trade because guess what. You know Chinese peasants will work for cheaper. They always will. But Americans want that job. So what about that? Okay, we got to go back to fundamentals on this thing is in Fundamentalist. What does it mean to be free. What is the nature of a free society in a free society is one in which people, at a minimum, have the right to engage in economic enterprise to sustain their lives. Occupations, vocations Id Hrant into deals with other people. Trade cause You could raise your standard Livni with trade and then accumulate the fruits of your earnings and then decide what to do with him Now is a libertarian. I am totally opposed to NAFTA and GATT and all these these these agreements. I mean, there were like 10 inches thick, and they call them Free Trade Agreement. Well, I guarantee, if you’ve got an agreement that’s 10 inches thick with a bunch of rules and regulations that is not the libertarian ideal of free trade. When we talk about free trade, we’re talking about, don’t negotiate anything with anybody. You don’t need to sit down with a present of another country and say, Let’s work this out. You don’t need to engage in these trade wars. All you have to do is just liberate the American people. That’s all you have to do. Release all your own restrictions on the freedom of the American people to travel and trade wherever they go. Does that mean that other countries will follow suit? Well, some of them will, because they followed by example, they’ll see the higher level of prosperity that free trade, Bri. But even if they don’t, if their governments continue doing the types of things that the U. S government does today subsidies to favorite businesses protectionism, tariffs. So be it. That’s that’s something for American businessman in American tourists in American consumers. They have to Fareed out for themselves how to deal with foreign countries where there’s bad things happening. But it’s no business of the U. S. Government. So get rid of all these so called free trade agreements to get rid of these meetings, high level meetings to negotiate these things, get rid of the trade wars, unilaterally lift Awal trade restrictions on the American people, liberate them to travel and trade with whomever they want and wherever they want to go. All right, well, uh, I wonder, though, if this is gonna, uh, helped crash the economy that Trump is trying so hard to, you know, keep inflated when he Raan. I’m not saying he’s in a kind of Austrian, but he is a real estate guy. So when he was running for president, he said, This is a giant bubble. This Obama economy is fake and all of this, which was true. And now he owns it. Big Time Ind claims credit for every you know, good sounding statistic that comes in, and yet he’s been very critical and has done brought more than any president. A longtime Thio, you know, publicly politicized the Federal Reserve and we’re here, he said. If you saw this on Twitter, he said, my only question is who is our bigger enemy, Jay Powell or Chairman Z? Um And his problem is they won’t inflate. They had another meeting and they did all capitals. Nothing. Exclamation point, meaning he wanted them to cut rates further to stimulate Maurin Flay Shin. He’s got an election to win here, and he’s terrified that the whole thing is gonna fall apart before November 2020. But at the same time, he’s the guy who’s waging this trade war and tryingto I don’t know to what degree, but to some pretty significant degree shutdown trade with our biggest or second biggest compared to Canada, I’m not sure. Trading partner there, so, uh, I don’t know. You got any predictions? Oh, it’s fascinating that that, you know, remember, for the 1st 2 years, all we’ve heard from Trump and his supporters is that he’s responsible for this great economy. The stock market soaring, unemployment rate down, that isn’t he a great manager of the economy. Then he starts his trade war with China. And I’m sure he thought of it that it was gonna be over in about two weeks, that the Chinese were just gonna buckle. And, uh, which was sort of what the Mexicans did when they re negotiated NAFTA, which turned out to be not much different from NAFTA itself. The new agreement. I think he thought the Chinese were going to do the same thing and he was gonna look like this hero. And now it’s clear that the Chinese did not buckle and and you’re right. It’s now throwing the whole world in the direction of a recession and his panicking. And so what is he doing? He’s not saying Well, this is because I’ve been a poor manager of the economy. He say this is the Federal Reserve’s fault because they will lower interest rates and what he wants them to do is what presidents have wanted them to do since the Fed was established in 1913. And that is inflate these bubbles to create artificial prosperity. And that’s what the Fed’s been doing for the last 10 years since the big crash in 2000. Ayt They’ve been inflating this bubble, and that’s what brings these boobs on the bus. It has nothing to do with free enterprise and everything to do with Federal Reserve policy. And yeah, Trump’s politicizing it. Now you know it. We’re told that the Fed is independent, but we know that’s not Non. Since you know, everybody in Washington State comes to political pressure. And so the Fed now is it started. Atto Thio really inflate this bubble Evo Ge Ardmore. So we’ve got this situation. As you point out, he’s got his variation of the Smoot Hawley tariff, which was enacted in the midst of the Great Depression, which made the Depression even worse. So I got this trade war at the same time that it looks like a recession might be on the horizon based on what they call the inverted yield curve in bomb sales. Uh, and then he’s over there asking the Fed keep inflating, keep inflating Ons owned, by the way, let me keep spending money. I mean, he just made a deal with the Democrats to lift the debt ceiling again, enabling the government to spend a trillion dollars more every year. We’ve already exceeded $22 trillion in public debt. And get this Trump and the Democrats make a deal to extend the debt ceiling conveniently till after the election so that even one of them could use it against the other. This shows you the joint corruption, Scott of both of these parties. They’re both complicity in the destruction of liberty in this country and economic prosperity. Genuine prosperity, not the Fed induced bubble type of prosperity to which we’ve become accustomed. Yeah, you know what? I wonder how things were gonna be after the next crash. Um, you know, it seems like people keep saying that. Ah, you know, the next one will be the worst one of Awal or something like that. But I’ve heard that before, but it does seem to be that they get worse and worse if you go, and if you look at, say, 88 92 99 away. They do seem to be Maura. Maura Disruptive. Ah, And then you look at the amount of money that they’ve created the amount of intervention that they did after Oo Ayt here to see what the rial correction and unraveling of all of that looks like, is it? I don’t know, beyond my immediate imagination, but I’m betting it’s gonna be pretty ugly. Yeah, that’s an interesting point. I mean, they are bigger, bigger, And because what they do is they encourage Maale Investment. They artificially lower interest rates. Oo business is going to say, Hey, wow! Business is booming. Lindh interest rates are low. I’m gonna go out, expand my business. But then is the reality starts to set in after the businesses occurred, a bunch of debt and he realizes Ge Osh there really isn’t enough consumer demand to sustain this. That’s when the recession hit. That’s when the shakeout starts. And they never want that shake out to start because that’s bad for political business. So they start inflating again. And so you get this Malinois vestment piled on Maor investment and what I said many, many years ago, is that, you know, we’ve seen various sectors that bear the brunt of this in a big way. Like last time. It was the housing market that everybody’s the value. Everybody’s houses just crater nationwide. Um, and and sometimes it hits the stock market. But the prospect that I’ve raised many years ago is what happens if one of these days the sector that gets hit is the banking sector. Uh, now you know, the FBI see has enough money to take care of three or four, maybe 10 or 20 bank failures. But what if there’s an industrywide banking collapse? Where is the FT. C going to get the money to cover everybody’s insurance and notice that they keep raising the insurance that started out is, I don’t know, 10,000 and 150,000. And it’s 250,000 now, maybe more. And it’s all with this notion of Oh, don’t worry, we could cover you. Everything’s fine. Well, they can if there’s a few banks to go under. But if there’s a nationwide Magden collapse, what were they going to do? Tax everybody in order to give everybody their money back so I think that’s a possibility. And if a bad one comes and you know I’m not here, you know, saying predictor doom. But I know that the Great Depression hit and if a bad one were to come, what People have to anticipate Id that this government’s going to be very, very vicious. Awal governments are to get their money, and, uh, and the government’s gonna want money even in the Depression. And so if the thirties President Roosevelt actually nationalized gold, this has been the official money of the American people under the Constitution for over 100 years, and he just said, I don’t need to go through a constitutional amendment. This is an emergency. I’m taking everybody’s gold from him and he made it a felony offense. Everybody had to go to the banks and turning their gold well over in Argentina when this happened, the president Argentina seized everybody’s Foer a Wone k and retirement accounts and replace them with government bonds. And I think that is a likely possibility if if there really is a big recession in this country, the seizure of people’s retirement accounts and replaced with bonds because that’s exactly what the Roosevelt administration did with gold. Crazy man. Um, I guess Ah. Hummel and Henderson. They say that if it comes to, you know, total, you know, massive inflation, destruction of the currency Ah, in order to prop things up that instead they’ll just repudiate the debt before they completely inflate the dollar out of existence will prop it up by just screwing every bondholder, which I think is probably the best solution of people invest in government. They deserve what they get. Although if you’re saying the government just took their gold and replaced it with a bond And although that was back then But I hear, yeah, I can’t imagine them just outright repudiation. My feeling is that they would inflate because the inflation is repudiation. Enas paying people back into base dollars. But the average Joe blow American doesn’t realize that the government’s doing it and Sony Cees prices rise and he starts blaming Awene profiteers and price Ge Alll Jer Aigars. He has no idea that this is This is what happens when the government debases the currency. And let’s face it, they’ve already destroyed the currency. You know, there used to be still silver knives, a silver quarter circulating in this country. But they inflated the bad currency to such an extent that those went out of circulation a long time ago. So they’ve been playing this game for for decades. They both parties have. It’s not just Trump, you know. People keep going after Trump, but it’s really not a trump issue. It’s a systemic issue. It’s It’s something that both Democrats and Republicans have done by creating a central bank, the Federal Reserve member America live without a central bank. For over 100 years. They went to a paper money standard, which was contrary to what our country and they went to the income tax. They went to all these status programs the welfare state, the national security state. And now they’re spending out the Ge Zoo and the release of the Internation into bankruptcy. And along with these dictatorial powers that they vested the president. That really changed the character of American life. They changed the governmental system, and that changed the society itself. Yeah, now so let’s talk about this immigration piece that you wrote earlier. This is something that divides libertarians a lot. Um, but you have this Wone particular great paragraph I wanted to highlight here. Where you talk about, Um you know, there’s a reason that libertarian advocates of immigration controls never mentioned the problem of enforcement. And then you go on to side a lot of not just the current crisis with, you know, the massive number of people being held in these temporary prisons and all of this stuff. But all of the rest of enforcement that comes with living inside the Constitution Free zone of the 100 mile, which Eni Moneim Cannes Joost, Type that in and look at the A C L U map there. The the it includes both coasts are all three coasts, 200 mile buffer zone in from Mexico and Canada. It happens to encompass about somewhere between 2/3 and 3/4 of the population of the United States of America. Live inside this Constitution free zone were in the name of immigration enforcement. The National Police force can run roughshod over the constitutional rights of all of us. Anyway, you elaborate here in this article real well, and it it really brings home the idea. And why should libertarians especially be the ones to fall for this? That Somehow your opinion about what the law should be is a magic wish. That’s just gonna make everything fine rather than just giving a bunch of cops and excuse to hurt people. Yeah, it’s a police state that they’ve enacted in Immigration Police State. And this is what libertarians who support the idea of immigration controls never address. And I underline the word never that they come up with these esoteric arguments as to why libertarians should join up with the Democrats and the Republicans and support immigration controls. But the central cool principle of Libertarianism Assn. You know, is the non aggression principle. It says that people should be free to live their lives any way they want, as long as they’re not initiating force of fraud against another person. So the beer act of crossing a border on a government road or a government bridge doesn’t violate anyone’s rights. People cross the Potomac River, which is the border between Maryland, Virginia, Every day when they cross that border, they’re not violate anyone’s rights, and the same applies to international border. When somebody crosses in an international bridge here, not violating anyone’s right, and so in order to keep out these immigrant. They’re violating that libertarian, Non aggression principle they’re initiating. Forced to keep somebody from engaging in purely peaceful behavior Is the Declaration of Independence says pursuing happiness. And but people, if they just If the Kice issue the law that says Anu entry allowed without permission, nobody would obey it. And, uh, because that’s just not the way life works. People cross borders to go seek a better life, make money, improve themselves, pursue happiness. So they have to enact these enforcement measures that increasingly fail. And so they have to finally get to a point where they they’ve enacted a police state. And that’s what they’ve done. Scott in the American Southwest. As you know, I grew up down there. A group in Laredo. I saw this police state firsthand. They way I grew up on a farm of the Rio Grande. The Border Patrol could come on to my farm without a warrant. If we put a lock on our Ge Ayt, they would shoot off the lock, they would come in. They never came into our house to search the house, but they would they would go down. They would. They’re Ge per vehicle Awal way, the river and its search for illegal immigrants without permission. And this is in this applies to the whole 100 miles. As you point out, that’s 2/3 of the American population where they have the authority to do this, that most of the time they’re doing it near the border on the border. But you have Rove E border Patrol checkpoints. You have highway checkpoints, Scott that run on highways, East west, stopping people that have never entered Mexico. And these these air these air subject to full searches. I mean, if they want to, they could search your body cavities that these things. If they want to search your vehicle, they find any contraband. They Cees in charge. This is the type of thing that exists in totalitarian countries, and in Florida they’re boarding Greyhound buses and asking for people’s papers. And if somebody’s dark skin and doesn’t speak English, well, I like in my hometown 20% of the population doesn’t speaker ride English. At least that’s the way it was when I was there. Cem 40 years ago. Well, those people have to carry their papers were whenever they’re leaving Laredo to show that they’re American citizens. That’s not a free country, if that’s a police state, and that’s what this socialist system doesn’t Id. Immigration controls is a socialist system is based on the principle of central planning, where government officials air centrally planting the movements of millions of people in a very complex labor market. So that’s why you have this chaos in this crisis. Yet thousands of people packed up but the board or trying to get in. Meanwhile, you got farms in the United States where the farmers are letting their crops right in the fields because they can’t get people to pick the crops. That’s what socialism does. It produces what Lindh Arinc Monde Mises called plan to chaos. There’s only one solution to it. And thats open borders. Nothing else is gonna work. And, you know, people get shot to say, Well, Jake, that’s a radical idea. Well, it may be a radical idea, but it’s the only idea that works. There’s nothing else. He works except the free market. Okay, except here’s the thing of it. There’s so many. We’re not talking about individuals and, you know, husbands take in their wives and children and getting on the boat or hiking and whatever kind of sort of a few at a time. We’re talking about mass immigration, Um, and so you know, in a sense, it’s not really violence, but it’s kind of coercion. It’s kind of force if all of a sudden, in your neighborhood there are your part of town or where there are tens of thousands of new people who are coming in, whatever I don’t know, people react against it. I don’t give a crap, but anyway, you know that it’s a problem from the point of view of a hell of a lot of people who are reacting against it, and they’re hiring the government to protect them from it. So, I mean, is there a point where, even if it is Awal Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama’s fault, where enough of the population of Honduras just wants to Awal move to Texas, where maybe they can’t half of Honduras? Cannes come here. But not the whole country or I don’t know. Well, you’re right, point out. The foreign interventionism is a primary cause of of immigration to the United States. The United States is the U. S. Government has initiated coups and revolutions and and other acts of violence in Latin America that has just turned these these these regimes into cauldrons of of anger, rage, hatred, violence, shootings. And then there’s the drug war that does the same thing. Souto those two things that have caused a lot of the people Atto Wone leaves. So if you stop those two things, if you stop the foreign interventionism in the drug war that things would start to return to normal so that the immigration clothes would be more normal instead of like a mass exodus of people. But even even that even if we if we have those kind of programs and there’s a lot of people Kabbi, the idea that everybody’s gonna company the United States is really fallacious. The reason is because it is extremely difficult for a person, emotionally and financially to just pick up steaks from a country that he’s living in, that he’s accustomed to that language. If friends, his family, it really is a rare kind of person that says, I’m gonna leave it all, and I’ve been coming United States, and those are the people that really turn out to bring this vitality and this energy and me. They’re sort of like a God’s gift to a society, but you have to rely on laws of supply and demand to regulate this. This is what people forget, you know, for example, in California, California is a nice place to live. It’s a beautiful state, beautiful scenery, mountains, oceans and so forth. Why doesn’t everybody suddenly move to California? Well, because it’s extremely expensive to live in California, you know that the cost of living’s higher the taxes or hire people are actually moving out to California, moving to Las Vegas right now because they’re selling their houses at a high price. And there get the same house that 1/3 the price of De Las Vegas. This is the laws of supply and demand. Wait, noticed. We don’t have any restrictions on Americans to move wherever they want. Theoretically, every single American today could decide to move to New York City. Yeah, I mean, I think we’d all agree that New York City is a pretty overcrowded place. Well, since that danger exists in, we enact immigration controls prohibiting Americans from moving to New York City. Of course not the loss of supplying them and take care of this. It’s extremely expensive to live in New York City, so most Americans, they’re going to say, Well, now I think I’ll just stay here in Montgomery, Alabama, a Charleston, South Carolina. Or Dallas, Texas, because I like it here, even though New York has a lot of nice things that to go visit. So that’s the same principle internationally works on the country’s. As people start coming in, prices start rising, the price of housing, the price of everything, and then that discourages others from coming. You’re right, though culturally, people don’t like change. However, many people don’t like change. I mean, I like change, but you know, you, they see an influx of of Hispanics into a community, and they say, Oh my gosh, this is changing the nature about community. There’s signs in Spanish and so forth. Well, that’s what comes with with a genuinely free society. It’s that diversity that changed that I should point out that there’s a lot of communities in the South now that we’ve been revitalized by these Hispanic immigrants. In fact, even to the point where when the when the immigration service the ice went out, start making these violent raids on American businesses. I think it was a Tennessee that a lot of people rallied. Caucasian people Oh, rallied around the Hispanic immigrants. They were working to those businesses trying to prevent Eissa. I’m taking Liv away. So in a free society, is there change? Does it bother people? Yes and yes, but the idea that we should sacrifice our freedom for the sake of some kind of security net Ind pretense anyway, that all you end up with is tyranny. And so you give up both your your security and your freedom and you end up another leader. You can hear the Scott Kortan Shoah Gn Antiwar radio Awene Pacifica 90.7, F m kpfk in l. A kpfk dot or Ge a PS radio at a. P s radio dot com the Libertarian Institute at Libertarian Institute dot or Ge And, of course, check out the full archives. More than 5000 interviews now going back to 2003 and sign up for the podcast feed at Scott horton dot or Ge and thanks. All right, let’s talk about this one. Why no congressional investigation into Jeffrey Epstein’s intelligence connections? What an obvious and yet unique. Question. Jacobin Wurmer Ge Yeah, it’s a fascinating case up, and I know you know, there’s been a bunch of conspiracy ideas. There isn’t so forth that have been going on around is a debt. But the wood that I focus on is the statement by a cost of the assistant U. S. Attorney who cut the deal. It was a sweetheart deal. I mean, this guy was charged with federal trafficking of underage girls and hey, hands up with the sweetheart deal that where the feds agreed not to prosecute Id, which which was shocking. And he please guilty to a state charge of soliciting a prostitute, which was really an insult against the underage women that he was that he was bringing into his fold on. They put him in a local jail where they let him out every day to go conduct business. Then he comes back and spends the night. This went on for about a year. Well, when when everything hit the fan about this agreement, just recently they were asking a Costa about why did this agreement come into existence? And and he made this very cryptic remark. Supposedly he said something about Well, there was an intelligence factor involved here, something words to that effect, referring to tell it some intelligence agency or intelligence force or whatever. So we don’t really know exactly what he meant. But it was such an intriguing remark that my question is, why isn’t Congress investigating this? Because the implication is that some intelligence force brought pressure to bear on a Costa to drop the federal charges and let the guy have this sweetheart deal at the state level. Well, if that’s the case, if some intelligence agents agency, whether it’s the CIA and the Asaad or some other intelligence agency, Navy intelligence or whatever, is corrupting our federal judiciary, that that’s isn’t that something Congress should be looking into. When you have a judiciary, you have to rely on the fact that it’s honest that it has integrity to it. But if some intelligence forces able to influence them in some corrupt way, that’s something the American people are entitled to find out so that I wrote that article saying, Why isn’t Congress investigating this? Uh, this is totally separate, independent of how he died in what he was doing with these girls and the lawsuits that the girls a break the women are now breaking. This is just something that I think affects the American people directly. Is there a corrupt judiciary here? And did it become corrupt because of some intelligence force has manifested in this particular case? Because if they but in this case got they could do it. In any case, yeah, I think it’s incumbent on Congress to get to the bottom of well. And in this case alone, the implications are vast. Because if he was working for intelligence agencies, what was his work? Obviously blackmailing powerful people into committing the same kind of crimes he was into. Huu right? Nobody thinks he had another job than that if he was working for spies. And so that’s why you know, it’s amazing to see right Bill Richardson and George Mitchell and the Prince, all these people named, and it’s not proven that they did anything. But I’m prepared to believe the worst about Bill Richardson, for example. But this guy had a lot of powerful friends for a long time, and, you know, there are quotes from people saying that Yea, of course he had his whole island wired for sound and video and all of these things, which only makes sense, right? Had Bill Clinton lied about how many times he was on his plane. Was on his plane four times. That’s funny. You’re in the records 27 times, including trips to Thailand. Oh, yeah. No, I’m sure that was just business. These guys. So yeah, and you know, as far as conspiracy theories, I think the one where he killed himself is a conspiracy theory. But anyway, um, not that I, you know, in fact, just speculation wise, but do you have a favorite between, Ah, he’s still alive somewhere versus you know, he was throttled to death by somebody. Sit, man. Well, well, let me first address your first words. I think that’s really an important point. I mean that the speculation was rife on the Internet that we’re not in the mainstream press, interestingly enough, was that this guy was running a blackmail operation and that they were quoting traders on Wall Street, saying we never traded with Kai, and he was in a is running this hedge fund. And so the speculation of the Internet was that what he was doing was luring these people to his parties and then having them go up to the bedroom with these underage girls, which I’m sure he probably led people to believe We’re 18 and videotaped him and then contacted the person the next day and said, Hey, I’ve got this hedge fund. How about invest De $5 million in it? Because they will get pictures of you here. And so the person would invest in the hedge fund and of course, he’d never see his money back again. So that was a fascinating theory. And, you know, that’s something that I think still should be explored in these civil lawsuits. That being brought because if that’s the case, got the point you make is very important. Why would an intelligence agency, regardless of who it is Wone associate with this guy? I mean, here is trafficking and underage girls. Why would they want him? What? To spy on what, you know, spy on the Caribbean or what? Well, we know what J. Edgar Hoover’s motus waas mean. This this is no conspiracy theory here. Whoever would keep files on people Habul discovered dirt on people for the specific purpose of blackmailing people and it remember, this is a guy that still held in high esteem in the FBI. They named their building after him. He’s nothing but a common blackmailer. And so if the head of the FBI couldn’t do it well, an intelligence agency could do it also. And so that that’s that’s important speculation that I think needs to be explored. And that’s something else that I think Congress should get into because you got intelligence agency that’s doing what J. Edgar Hoover did. That’s not a good thing with respect to a free society now, on the conspiracy theories on how he died so far that I don’t know, you know, they got an autopsy that says he got Hunt. But But let’s face it, I mean to me, it’s possible to thio hang a guy and, you know, hold tube. Two burly guys hold him up, put a noose around his neck and dropping from a bunk bed so forth. Um, did that happen? I don’t know. But I’ll tell you one thing. It was I think it’s it. It was in a lot of people’s interests that he exit this world either through suicide or through uh, through murder. And, uh, my my hunch is that maybe when they saw that he had a proclivity to Cannes commit suicide, they just sort of looked the other way and said, Well, let it go. Uh, but, you know, I don’t think anybody’s going to get very far by insinuating murder, because once the autopsy came out, unless somebody where Thio Goa state’s evidence or go public and say, yeah, we kill the guy, which is not gonna happen I think we have to just settle for the fact that it was a suicide. Yeah, it’s a separate question in a separate kind of entertainment to me, the way the media just immediately went on this jihad to essentially say, you are forbidden from believing that maybe this guy was murdered, it couldn’t be. And if you think so, you’re one of those crazy people who we all despise and would never invite our barbecue. Really? What a conspiracy theory that this guy who was clearly involved in the sexual blackmail of numerous powerful men, mysteriously died in his cell mysteriously. But whatever Awene Lee a kook would think that it wasn’t a suicide. Why? Simply because TV insists that’s it, even though essentially its just as plausible that he was murdered. And it’s almost a CZ plausible that he’s still alive and that they murdered some schmuck and you know why not? This guy’s pretty connected. Seems like, Ah, it’s just a speculation. You have to believe in that. But to think that Oh yeah, I know there’s a 99.999% chance that it was suicide, and anybody else who thinks anything else is a horrible, terrible, crazy person, the kind of person who might have told you that the media was covering for this guy all along. Like, for example, when the National Review in the Huffington Post Raan giant puff pieces by his paid PR people to rehabilitate his reputation after his conviction and so called time served down there in Florida. That sounds like a crazy conspiracy theory to that. This guy wasn’t completely hung out to dry 20 years ago by all of our hard hitting investigative news reporters, the same ones who were telling us that were horrible, stupid, crazy people. Now for even entertaining the possibility that whether Clinton or Trump or somebody we’ve never heard off would have had this guy whacked in his cell. My reaction of the mainstream press is exactly like yours. I mean, I was amazed. Mea Gn investigative reporters were supposed to be skeptical of official accounts. And when you use when he supposedly committed suicide, ride with the announcement was made. You’re right. The assessment of the Bayh Strugar press was Oh, this was clearly a suicide over. The conspiracy theorists are already coming out. Well, nobody really knew at that point. I mean, it would be justifiable to be skeptical, especially for the media to be skeptical. That’s their job to say. You know, did anybody have a motive to get rid of this guy? That that, uh, is there? Is it possible that Cem Cem people are paying big money? Did it snuff this guy out before he gets to trial and start spilling the beans? But you’re right. It was all this Oo conspiracy theorists are coming forward. Conspiracy theorists are coming forward rather than expressed the skepticism that should be expressed. And you could see it in the same thing with respected. That this point that I was making about the intelligence agencies. I don’t see the mainstream press making a big deal out of that. And that’s not a conspiracy theory, because Acosta himself says something about intelligence. That’s something that all they gotta do, a subpoena, Hammoud say. What did you mean by this? And who told you that? That that intelligence had an interest in how this thing is resolved? And then he says, Well, somebody told me this. Alright, subpoena him until you get to the bottom of this. But I don’t see the mainstream press talking about this at all, right? At least not that angle right or you know it’s there, right? You can read it in the Daily Beast. But it’s not the major part of the narrative, even though, of course, that’s the juiciest tidbit out of all of it. Never mind any of the sexes to somebody say he belongs to intelligence. Well, let’s parse that dive in somebody with a badge, right? Subpoena Holo. Bring together grand jury. And I love the way you described just now. You kind of alluded to it. But in the article, you have this great kind of daydream about what if America had a rule of law at all, and would have Congress actually would do such a thing as subpoena cost and nail him down on this point and make him Gnehm, the guy who said that to him and then bring that guy in and say, All right, buddy, now who told you to say that? And on down the chain? Until you get to the bottom of this corruption and make sure that the law’s still reigns supreme in America, this kind of dig, Think of how far off of reality that is. And can you imagine Congress doing anything of the sort ever? Well, no, because a zay put the end at the end of my article. Ayt, an agency that has enough power and influence to corrupt the federal judiciary, is more has more than sufficient power to corrupt Congress. I mean, let’s face remember when Schumer made that congressman Schumer made that remark that when Trump took on the the intelligence agencies, Hayb better watch out because they know howto retaliate Tin times to Sunday or something, Six ways from Sunday of getting back at you. Well, Congress knows that Schumer knows the Shoah. Birns chippers is essentially expressing the sentiments of every member of Congress. They’re scared to death to take on the CIA on Ds Cem of Aamer Ind Gerecht assets in the sea a sort of self appointed assets and supporters of the CIA. So that’s why you don’t see anybody in Congress doing what I think they need to be doing. And that is subpoena Khowst and get to the bottom of this this intelligence factor relation ship that that Epstein apparently had. The CIA, I think controls that type of thing that they wouldn’t permit it to happen. They would not permit Congress to have this type of investigation. That’s how much power I think they have in this country. Yeah, well, hey, Chuck Schumer is the leader of the Democrats in the Senate That’s about as powerful and influential as you could get an effect in that clip, I’d have to go back, but I’m not so sure that he’s delivering a threat on their behalf. It seems more like just honest advice from the majority leader in the Senate to the incoming president that Hey, man, these guys are gangsters. Hell, you should really watch your step. Oh, I totally agree with you. I think he was just making an honest assessment of the situation that a trump Don’t be stupid. That Eni president takes on the national security establishment. They’re gonna come after you, and you’re gonna pay a big price for it. Then he wasn’t addressing some congressman elect. He was addressing the president elect that. Hey, we all know who’s the real boss around here, and it ain’t you, right? Right. And what I like about that, too, is that he said that Awene Rachel Maddows show. And she’s like, Yeah, this is not a topic to explore that. Wow. I mean, what are you really saying here, Senator? You know that Langley is more powerful than Capitol Hill? Well, then, the White House on Pennsylvania Avenue. Really? I don’t have any doubts that that is the most powerful branch of the government. We don’t think in terms of the national security established would be in a separate branch, but it really is. And there’s a great book called Double Government by Ghandi. Michael Glennon. It’s Professor Bolat, Tufts University. That that’s his thesis in this book that the national security branch of the government is the most powerful branch and it makes sense because government is force. So the other three branches may have a U. S. Marshal Oorah Diyah or Cem Hmmmmm agricultural official carrying a gun. But that’s not real force. Riel forces troops, bullets, planes, ships. And that’s the national security establishment. And Ge. Lenin’s thesis is that they’re the ones really running the show, and they permit the other three branches to have a Idir of being in charge. But because they don’t care about that, that the appearance, all they care about is are they called the Shots under the table. And, uh, Gwynne Nas book is really worth reading. It’s the best analysis I’ve seen of the Deep State ever, and it’s done in a very scholarly, credible way. Yeah, you know, it’s funny because people say the deep state this or this kind of state that. But if you go back to Albert Jane Aq and his book is a short book or s a R enemy the state, he defines the state as different from the government. The government is sort of, you know, the buildings, the institutions, the laws in the offices, kind of. But the state is the interlocking web of community among the human people who occupy those buildings and offices and wield those powers. And that’s not just exactly the the bureaucrats themselves. But that’s of course, completely intertwined with all of their special interests. Uh, Jos, broadly defined as you can make it, that is. The deep state, of course, is the CIA and all their contractors and all their contractors and the C I. A. Both ways. Yeah, I mean, that’s the point is, you know, that I’ve been making for many, many years that that I favor a limited government republic. That is what our country was founded on. And then it got converted to a national security state after World War Two. And a lot of Americans think, Oh, it’s just the same governmental system we’ve always had. It really isn’t. It’s a totally opposite type of governmental system. The national security state is a totalitarian type of government structure. It is the opposite of a limited government republic. And so we’ve ended up with the government with the power to assassinate people, including Americans, torture people, including Americans, indefinite detention, secret prison camps, coups, uh, alliance with the dictatorial regimes. This was no part of the governmental system in which America was founded. So what I say is is just dismantle this thing in restoring limited government republic to our land. It’s a necessary prerequisite to being free. Now, does that scare people? Oh, yeah, because they’ve all grown up with the CIA and the N S A. And the Pentagon. They think, Oh, you know, everybody’s coming to get us and by I want to be kept safe. It’s a classic case of trading liberty for the pretense of security, because what is happening is you end up not only with a tyrannical government with these omnipotent powers like assassination and torture and so forth. But you’ve given up both your freedom and your security Etit. But neither. Yeah, well, that’s where we are right now. Exactly what you guys, that’s Jacob Hornberger. He may or may not be running for the candidacy of the Libertarian Party for President United States next year, and I guess we’ll find out at some point. Um, he’s also the founder of the president of the Future Freedom Foundation. He’s written 10,000 articles up there, maybe 20,000 since, like, 1989 I think, uh, f f f dot or Ge slash blawg. Thanks very much, sir. Oh Scott, it’s always an honor and a pleasure, Thank you very much and thank you for your kind words. Really appreciate it. If anybody wants to learn more, come to F F F Dot or Ge. We’ve got a free daily publication that we strive to make the best libertarian commentary page on the Internet, and that’s an f f f dot org’s absolutely. And you can subscribe to toothy the future Freedom. It’s not called. It’s just called the Future Freedom Now, uh, Munther Enel, that cost $25 or $50 for the email version. And then you can also send us a donation. Because that’s what, of course, how we survive way live off the donations that people send us. So thank you, Scott. We’re very, very appreciative. For every time you have me on the show, I’m honored and grateful. All right, good deal. Good. Talk to you again. Okay. Bye. Bye. Aren’t you guys that’s fff dot or Ge. All right, Shell. Thanks. Find me at Libertarian Institute dot or Ge at scott, Kortan dot or Ge antiwar dot com and Reddit dot com slash scott Horton show. Oh yeah, and read my book Fool’s Errand Timed and the War in Afghanistan at Fool’s errand dot us.

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Scott talks to Peter Van Buren about the effects of war on American culture. They discuss the fact that America has been at war almost constantly for its entire history, ever since the nation was formed by overthrowing the British. Having an external enemy supposedly allows people to put their differences aside and feel unity as a country, but it comes at the cost of money, lives, and an ever-increasing encroachment of government power into the private sphere. Van Buren also discusses his recent article about the bombing of Hiroshima, and the ways the government and military sought to bury the truth from the American public.

Discussed on the show:

• “Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing” (The American Conservative)
• “The Untold History of the United States” (IMDb)
• “The decision to use the atomic bomb” (Harper’s Magazine)
• The Doomsday Machine: Confessions of a Nuclear War Planner

Peter Van Buren worked for 24 years at the Department of State including a year in Iraq. He is the author of We Meant Well: How I Helped Lose the Battle for the Hearts and Minds of the Iraqi People and the novel Hooper’s War. He is now a contributing editor at The American Conservative magazine.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; Washinton Babylon; Liberty Under Attack Publications; Listen and Think Audio; TheBumperSticker.com; and LibertyStickers.com.

Donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal, or Bitcoin: 1KGye7S3pk7XXJT6TzrbFephGDbdhYznTa.

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Following is an auto-generated transcript of the episode.

sorry I’m late. I had to stop by the wax museum again. Did the finger that FDR We know Al Qaeda Zawahiri is supporting the opposition in Syria. Are we supporting Al Qaeda in Syria? It’s a proud day for America. Ghad Kice, Knut Gnehm syndrome once and for all. Thank you Very I say And I see it again. Bin are trying to simply deny things that just about everybody else except as fact Saud died way Kila Bayh, Armey Mutawakil Ind Maale we Bol Beito like, say I’m Ain Bin Say it. Say it three times the meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world. Then that’s going to be an invasion. Hey guys, check it out on the line. I’ve got Pieter Van Buren, former State Department whistleblower, author of We Meant Well And also Huu Purse wore a Memoir of Natta memoir something about World War Two Japan. How are you doing? I’m doing well, Scott. Thanks for having me back. It’s always a pleasure to be here. Help me with that subtitle Manan Seri The novel of World War Two Japan That’s what I meant to say. Yeah, a novel of world War two Japan, and it’s a book about moral injury. It’s a book about what happens to people in in war, and it’s his book that set in World War two as a so called neutral setting that will hopefully allow us tow. Have a conversation about these topics without bringing in the external politics of more modern wars. Because, unfortunately, the things that wars due to human beings, whether they’re the the targets or or the trigger pullers are universal and haven’t changed a lot since since the early Greeks and whether it’s Afghanistan or Okinawa or a fictional battle as I created my my book, Cooper’s War. The stories, unfortunately, are very much the same. Yeah, man, you know, it’s funny because everybody knows that everybody says that. Sherman said that war is hell, and everybody knows that guys come home from or and then stand intersections, asking people to help him get by before they die. Ah, I grew up with Vietnam veterans on the side of the road constantly, you know, is that my old thing? And like, um so everybody knows that. But at the same time, we also know that war is what makes us Great War is what makes us us Without that. What are we accept? Just a bunch of, you know, disconnected individual community, less beings. Andar Armey. That’s the thing that makes us the USA Together. It’s kicking butt and stopping bad guys and stuff. It really is. I mean, it comes as close to, ah national religion as anything else. Certainly a national obsession. Um, the idea that a few things that pull us together are when the United States is quote under threat from abroad. Um, and whether that threat is somewhere on the rial scale or somewhere on the completely made up scale is is largely irrelevant if you want to look back. I mean, I’m not a big fan of sort of the single theory of history where Wone event tower Wone theme sort of controls everything. Ah, the New York Times, of course. This week has released their 16 19 project, which posits that everything in America is based on slavery and those type of looks, whether it’s slavery or whether it’s war are simplistic. But at some point there’s validity buried in there, and the idea that America must exist in a state of conflict. That an external enemy is always necessary has a lot of validity. Our country was founded on, ah, that the fighting the external enemy of the British. And there’s been relatively few periods in our history where we haven’t done that. About the only significant time where we haven’t summoned an external enemy is, of course, when we used an internal enemy during our Civil War period, the kind of substitute for it, you know that the problem with that is that the casualties were usually multiplied by double. And, uh, you know, making out the bad guys when they speak the same language gets a little tricky. So if we’ve luckily corrected that mistake and haven’t repeated it since 18 65. So Cem good news is mixed in as well. Yeah, a little bit. Um well, you know, it’s always seemed to me that partially just because history in American education is so neglected that really people don’t know anything about George Washington or even Abraham Lincoln when it comes to you know, America’s founders that really what we have is FDR Huu Lead America Atto, War against Hitler and save the economy. Doing so, they say brought the unemployment rate down by conscripting 16 million people, and they stopped one of history’s greatest tyrants. And so, um, that’s really where we Bin stock ever since then, right? Is World War Two. Yeah. Then when you talk about American history, it’s very interesting, because I it would be amused to find, ah, someone to point out a ah high school in America that accurately and thoroughly, even even gets into the history of America. Post World War Two. Um, it’s been a couple of years since I’ve been in high school, but ah, you know, I watch my kids go through it. I see friends and neighbors. Kids go through it in American history is incomplete. And as poorly taught as it is from, uh, you know, the founding up through World War Two sort of tapers off into a grey fuzzies. Oh, Gn! And then World War two in Korean. Uh, Nixon was Badr Andrei, and that was kind of it. Cem. Wonderful attempts, and I’ll put in ah, quick pitch for an Oliver Stone project. That’s I think it’s on Netflix right now, but it alternates between Netflix and Showtime and Amazon and those things Khader Gn Untold history of the United States and it basically, uh, piggybacks on Howard Zinn’s work and some other ah, fine scholars. But it presents in a fairly lively documentary form the history of the last 80 years of the United States, Um, in a little bit, Maura, uh, objective point of you talking about the underlying themes that we’ve just touched on very briefly and sarcastically here. But this idea of dominance, of empire, of the need for an external enemy looking into the the value of the Cold War. If you’re a politician running for office now, it’s an Oliver Stone project. And so you there’s places where it can’t help itself but go over the top. But that is just kind of a little little spice along the way. There’s a lot of very good history in there. And if the listener is saying, Well, all right, fine. Scott, you’ve convinced me I need to educate myself. You could start in worse places than watching a couple hours of that. Yeah, well, you know, one of the benefits of being a libertarian is that you can indulge all you want in leftist historical revisionism or for that matter. Right wing historical revisionism, Awene Whatever issues Ind, you don’t have to abandon your identity in order to look into something like that. Where is a conservative? Mike? Oh my God! Oliver Stone and his Com Lille story and co author. I can’t Beirt toe peek through my fingers at what they might say. I don’t want to know, and I don’t want anyone. I don’t want to think that I have anything in common with anybody like that. But when you’re libertarian, reject like me, no problem. And there’s great value in that Siri’s. And in fact, once they start to get into the terror wars, I turned it off because I didn’t want to copy them in any way. I was in the middle of writing Fool’s errand at the time, and there’s too much good stuff in there, and I don’t wantto um, you know, I wanted to prevent myself from sounding too much like what they were doing, so I I will look much on the on the word revisionism because I I understand exactly how you mean it, and it’s a valid word. But be cautious up for people out there about that word because it’s oftentimes flung about when you think someone is sort of revising things, telling you that what you knew was was wrong. But I like the word incomplete. Is, um, almost better trying to say the same thing? Of course. The idea. Well, I kind of like the confrontation in that. That Guess what, pal. The official history of everything has written is all false. So if you want to be straight about anything, you’re gonna have to go back and look at critics. I mean, look at the way they lied to you every day on the news. That’s the history. Next year, you could read in American History Book right now in, you know, probably Eni College in America will tell you the Branch Davidians Awal committed suicide. Well, you know what you need, Cem historical revisionism, Because that’s not what happened. For one example, the thing is, is what concerns me. And ah, I’m actually I just came back from Germany, and this part of that trip I made ah visit to two. Dakhil and I spent a little time poking into not the roots of Nazism and things like that. I think if someone is out and out, putting out falsehoods those If you’re willing to engage with the material you can you can kind of poke those down fairly quickly. But what is what is more dangerous is incomplete. Is, um if I’m going to coin a phrase here is the idea that we’re gonna tell you enough true stuff, but not all of it. And, you know, here’s a set of facts that on their own arm or or less accurate but lead you to a false conclusion, as opposed to saying I mean what, for example, that the theme of what I’m writing Awene is those who claimed America is, you know, Germany in 1933 know nothing about Germany of 1933 you could pull up little little points of connection and you ca Gn try to argue that that silly elementary school tweets are the equivalent of the Nuremberg speech. But in fact, those air false conclusions, they give you bits of fax that lead you to something. But they are so incomplete that they lead youto to an end. I mean, elephants have legs, grasshoppers have legs. Nobody wants to claim an elephant is a grasshopper and that’s the thing. And that’s what that becomes. Very dangerous. Because if I come right out and say something completely false and silly, then you could kind of shoot that down. Even even a quick drive through Wikipedia might be enough. But if I give you Cem riel information and let you kind of with the idea of walking you toward a particular conclusion, well, then it’s more difficult because you go back and you say, Well, gosh, you know, the looks like the Japanese weren’t really ready to surrender. So maybe blowing up Hiro Shima Nagasaki was necessary and simply the fact that there were problems with arranging the Japanese surrender, which is true. But by presenting Awene Lee that bit of information and nothing. Maura, I’ve led you to conclude that the annihilation of two civilian cities was perfectly justified. And that’s where things get nasty and a little bit difficult. Well, you know, one thing that I learned very recently in the, you know, kind of annual discussion of the atomic bombings, which, by the way, is why I brought you on today. Don’t whitewash that Hiro Husham. A bombing, uh, is the subject here, but little anecdote. And I don’t think this came from from your piece. It was something else. I read that right after the war, Stimson said, or maybe even still during the work, the secretary of war said we ought to go ahead and give the atomic bomb plans to Stalin because they’re gonna get him anyway. And by doing by, you know, uh, hoarding the secret, we’re just gonna make the USSR distrust us more. We’re gonna get the whole post war era off on the wrong foot. We could end up in arms race against him in all of this stuff, so we should try to keep it. So just knowing that that was there and he was overruled, of course. And the Russians got nukes two years later, three years later, something anyway, um, and in fact, there were. You know, there’s plenty of good reason to believe that Americans did transfer nuclear technology to them in order to help with that regardless, But it just goes to show that that was the Secretary of Wars advice to the president at the time, which you don’t have to agree with that at all. I’m not sure I agree with that necessarily. But it sure is important to know that that’s there, because at the very least, it shows you that the way things turned out, it didn’t necessarily have to be that way. It could have been some other way, whereas the way were, you know, present, especially when we’re kids in school, is that essentially everything that happened had to happen. You think Truman, our great president whose name was true man, would nuke people if he didn’t have to? That the American people would have elected a man who would have Newt people if he didn’t have to? No way. It goes without saying that it had to be. Or else it wouldn’t have been. So you get a little fact like that and you go Wow. Okay, maybe, you know what? If Arthur Vandenberg had had a heart attack and didn’t give a Cheny didn’t have a chance to tell Harry Truman scare the hell out of them. Come on, let’s build up the US says Sorry, that just lost tens of millions of people in this war and pretend they’re about to conquer the Earth. If we don’t stop him, what if those people hadn’t been there that week, things might have been entirely different. And this is why we’re talking about Hiro. Shima, an event of 75 years ago is because historians study history to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past, whereas politicians manipulate history in order to set up what they want to do in the future. And there’s really not a better case study. If if you will, then then Hiro Shima and the aftermath of the atomic bombing you basically had from a historical perspective, you had, Ah, an action taken in the midst of war that happened the way it happened. And we can go back and look at it and say, Did was it truly necessary for the United States to annihilate two cities full of men, women and children? Non combatants for the in almost 100%. But what the politicians did in America was to manipulate a set of fax and take advantage of Cem very skillful propaganda to repurpose that historic those historical questions for the future to set up what they expected to be a nuclear conflict with the Soviet Union and their example, they were going to use Hiro Shima not as a way of reflecting on our Cont Awene are our actions in World War Two, but as a way of preparing the American people for the atomic conflict that they felt was was imminent. And the way that people are manipulated by history by constrained use of fax is very, very, very relevant. Most of your listeners have lived through the post 9 11 years where the events of September 11th were manipulated into, ah, nearly endless series of wars that are continuing even through today. Many ah have been with us for the last year where a, uh of the events of so called Russia Ge Ayt have Bin failed to be successfully manipulated to end the Trump presidency. Um, these lessons are not in abstract. This isn’t grad school, you know, five pages with footnotes. If you want the B plus, this is extremely relevant stuff. And by using a historical example, we have a wee Ge Ain the advantage of perspective be we may be removed some of the immediate emotion and also we take advantage of the fact that we have a more full set of of information to work with than we have Ardmore contemporary events. It it, unfortunately in our transparent democracy, takes decades for information to finally slowly creep out of government hands. Because course, controlling what information is public allows you to control the conclusions the public reaches. Hey guys. Scott here for Liberty under Attack Publications looking for a Liberty Focus publisher Liberty Under Attack publishes books and strategy guides for individuals looking to increase their personal freedom. They assist authors through the entire publishing process. Proof reading, editing, cover designs, paperback and kindle formatting and full audio book narration and post production. Tell him Scott sent you and get 20% off a full service deal. To get Cem one of a kind books, or for more information, visit Liberty under attack dot com. Hey, guys, check out, listen and think audio books. They’re listening, think dot com and, of course, Awene audible dot com. And they feature my book Fools Ehren, Time to End the War in Afghanistan, as well as brand new Out Inside Syria by our friend Reese Erlich and a lot of other great books, mostly by libertarians. There, Reese might be one exception, but essentially they’re Awal libertarian audiobooks. And here’s how you can get a lifetime subscription to listen and think audiobooks. Just donate $100 to The Scott Horton show at scott Kortan dot or Ge slash donate. Now there’s Cem important truths and narratives that were coming out of the atomic bombings at the time that you’re saying they weren’t just, you know, covered up for, you know, reasons of the American government losing face for doing such a thing to two places that were, in fact, not military bases as originally claimed. And all that, but really to set the American people up to get usedto life in the era of atomic wars. And so, uh, talk a little bit more about that, and you’re like in specific How do you know that? What are the examples of where they decided that this is what we’re doing? And this is why we have to spin it this way? We’re going to jump ahead here of the question of worthy atomic in. If you’re sitting in the Oval Office in late July 1945 and someone says, Hey, Mr President, should we drop these atomic bombs? Let’s set aside the question of truly were those bombs necessary to end the war at that point in time. And it’s a difficult just preference that by saying it is a difficult question, particularly when you’re looking backwards and trying to place yourself in that room, you know, in late July 1945 and think like 1945 people, not not 2019 people. But let’s just skip ahead and used as a starting point that the atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and decimated two undefended cities almost entirely populated by Non Non combatants. And and the war ended, which it absolutely did end. The American people at initially were fed ah, line of that. So that’s then we go back and look at at the messaging as we talk about it today. The original announcement of the bomb by Harry Truman was an absolutely vengeful statement. I mean, biblical proportions, as they say, he said. I we’re now prepared to obliterate Mordor rapidly and completely every productive enterprise the Japanese have above ground in any city. That’s not like, Hey, we’re gonna destroy their power to make war. Eni. I mean, he was pretty straightforward with his word choices in that particular speech went on to talk about mass casualties and spoke of cruelty at levels previously unknown on this Earth outside of biblical times. That message of vengeance was the initial messaging, and it played well to a population that was weary of war. And basically that’s what stood for about a year and 1/2 to the extent that people even focused on it. And when, in writing what was a fictional book about World War two I. I read through an awful lot of archive materials, and not there wasn’t as much conversation about the nuclear bombing of two cities as you might think. Would would. Would it be engendered. It was focus. The focus was on something else. The end of the war, Foer Wone of, ah, focal point. It was John Hershey’s 1946 article in The New Yorker. That kind of began the change in conversation. It wasn’t when you when you study history, you pick out these events because it make. It’s a great way to talk about history. It’s not like prior to her, she’s article no one talked about Khera Shia Monde, you know, suddenly it fell from the sky, so to speak. It isn’t that case it Awal g uys were coming back. Photos were leaking. This was, ah, time when when information spread very differently and much more slowly. The point is, is that John Hershey, Ga. Was one of the first reporters that went to Hiro Shima to report on what happened there. End was not censored. The war had ended. People were no longer the military was less concerned about sitting on these type of articles, and there was certainly no tactical information that could be accidentally given away. And her, she wrote, Ah, brilliant article, which later became a book which explained in in terrifying, horrific detail, what happens to a civilian population undefended when they are Newt. And this caused a coupled with the timing of it. It was a It was a year and 1/2 or so after the war. Americans were anxious to forget as much as they could, and this was a Gn economic boom that was starting. We all know the story of the post war economic boom for most people in the United States, and suddenly there was a Gn opening for reflection about who we were and what we did, and Hershey Foer like I’ll say, almost by accident, stepped into that. Now the problem was, is that this period of reflection over how America made war was coinciding with what the government knew was the beginning of what we call the Cold War. Inside Washington, they were no longer thinking about having defeated the Nazis in the Japanese. All eyes were on Moscow, and everyone was planning on how this next war was going to play out. We were, Ah, not long away, a year or so away from what became known as the Berlin Airlift, the Iron Curtain. I mean, all this stuff was percolating in Washington, and they knew this was coming. And the idea of softening the American people to the idea of nuclear war did not fit with the Program Ind. John Hershey’s article and the introspection that it caused just Werth Wrong messaging Foer in America that Washington knew they were going to push into the Cold War and the Cold War was good, was was a nuclear conflict and was going to involve the annihilation of multiple Russian and door Chinese cities. And ah, we didn’t need any soft selling Awene that something had to be done, and what was done was essentially the last 60 years of propaganda. But it started again for lack of a pinpoint starting point. It started with a 1947 article by Secretary of War Henry Stimson. Huu, I think you mentioned earlier, um, he actually wasn’t the author. And because history does enjoy irony, the author was Makki George Bundy Huu your listeners will recognize as one of the best and the brightest in the John F. Kennedy crowd that drove America into Vietnam and the atrocities that characterized that war. So Mich. George Bundy wrote this article, basically creating the talking points for the American government and the American people for the next 70 some years that the atomic bombs were necessary to end the war quickly, that the atomic bombs not only saved the lives of and by the way, the numbers jumped from from every time you Goa through a historical reference that the numbers get bigger, you know, jump from 10,000 dead Americans repeating Japan to 100,000 to a million on the beaches. And that’s a President Bush senior had said that Hato 1,000,000 American Boyz would have died invading Japan. Yeah, and you can find references to that. But the interesting thing is, as you walk, those are if you walk back the stories and articles and references and think tank pieces that the number of Americans that was going to be killed in that invasion increased by a factor of a hundredfold. Um, in the five years after the war ended. But more importantly, Stimpson began laying out. But the idea that not only did we save American lives in the use of the atomic bomb, we save Japanese lives, too. That, you know, is that Woodword, as they say, You can’t make make this stuff up. I mean, the this article, which is really the beginning of it all it’s in. Ah was in Harper’s magazine in February of 1947. And maybe you could post a link to my article which has all the references. Khair Pillay will. But I mean, the idea is it say we save Japanese lives because dang it, if we would have had to ah, conduct a land invasion of Japan, we would have had to kill more of them little yellow fellers. So you know the people who died Id Hiro Shima and Nagasaki Man. They they were kind of the crumple zone for the rest of Japan were going to kill more of them. And there was in in, in a sense, in February 1947. And it written form the creation of the what I call the Hiro Shima myth and which became the basis of the Cold War that annihilating cities was part of the way nuclear war was going to work, that Americans were ready for this and that Ge Osh. In a way, it’s actually gonna help them because, you know, the more Russians we kill in that initial blast, the less likely they are to kill. Continue the war, et cetera. It became it’s no, no, no joke. That was a little Freudian slip there about the Russians, right, because it was a demonstration for the Russians. Oh, that’s that’s another. That’s another line of argument, one of the when we go. That’s why I started. Where I did is the bomb dropped? I started with that point because one of the arguments about the unnecessary nous of the Khera Huma Nagasaki bombings at all was that they weren’t needed to stop the war. They were done as a proof of concept for the Russians, you know. Look what we got. You want to mess with us? This is what you’re messing with. So I kind of skipped over the arguments against dropping the bombs because I wanted to focus forward here on how America manipulated this. I only brought it up now because you just called the Japanese Russians, so I thought I would Okay. Are they different? It was It was, you know, it’s a slip. Was Awal Yeah, this is a matter because they’re not Americans. And that’s where I important. They’re all Russians, everybody or they’re all Japanese. Same difference. Whatever the enemy, the enemy is really how is really what matters. And so there was this creation of of these of what I call the Hiro Shima myth. And it has survived mightily because in many ways it became the core of convincing Americans that the Cold War was a noble cause and what we were going to have Atto eventually do. And and it was almost a certainty. If you read back through the archives in the 19 fifties, it was almost a certainty inside Washington that we were going to go to nuclear war with Russians, possibly also the Chinese. It really wasn’t until the sixties, when the Russians started to to get a little stronger about this. And and I think there was a little bit Hmmmmm Aurdic instance between World War Two that American government started to kind of imagine, maybe we weren’t. This wasn’t as inevitable. I haven’t looked into it is closely, but potentially, you could argue. Somewhere around the Cuban missile crisis, it changed from inevitable to maybe something we could avoid. Um, not ready to go to the mat on that statement. But I think it’s it’s one that’s worth exploring. What if you haven’t read the Doomsday machine by Dan Ellsberg yet? Definitely do. The bottom line is that Hiro Shima was the aftermath of Hiro Shima was a myth that was specifically created. Foer propaganda purposes by the United States, too. A pair of the American public Foer the inevitable nuclear conflict to come. It served the interests of the United States government long past the Cold War and still kind of pops in around the edges of when you’ve got to explain away accidentally droning a wedding party in Afghanistan to kill Wone terrorist. The Hiro Shima myth is underneath all that. It underlies these type of things. You hear military people and politicians today saying things like, Hey, if the people of Fallujah didn’t harbor terrorists, we would wouldn’t have been necessary to destroy them in the in the process. So there are There are hints and there are notes of the Hiro Shima myth that persists Awal through modern time Itsu proven to be an extraordinary piece of propaganda. Um uh and it’s still very much a part of us today. Yeah, man, you’re right about that. It’s like a big Milgram experiment or something. Hey, it’s required that you continue to endorse. This is Everybody else does. And you don’t want to look like a hippie. OK, good. That’s good enough. And think about just how shallow and ridiculous this argument is that to save American G uys admittedly conscripts. I mean, don’t get me wrong. But to save American G I s we get to nuke women and children. Ralph Rico, In his article, Hiro Chaman, Nagasaki says, Well, what if we’re you know, we’re just talking about the Nazis who didn’t have nukes, but instead they would just round up women and children in the town square and then just machine Ghanem like that. Would that have been okay for the Americans to go into Khera Shima with our Infantry and round up the population into the center of town? Ind. Just straight machine gunned them all to death like the Gestapo in order to get the government in Tokyo to surrender. Because that’s what the Gestapo would do. The enemy in this story that might be with the Japanese imperialists would have done. Yeah, it’s brutal, is they were, But that’s who we are now and then. But somehow this is, as you say, totally good enough. In fact, Lider, look awake Oo again. Well, we got to get that David Koresh. Yeah, but there’s a bunch of women and children in their Ghad aying. Dave Karesh. I heard he deals Drugs blah, blah, Ge kill them all. You gotta we gotta save the lives of a couple of cops who picked this fight in the first place. It comes down to ah, very core part of America Andar I’ll just say policy, I don’t want to even say foreign policy and that is, expediency always seems to trump morality. Minni, you know the right thing to do under difficult circumstances is kind of how this stuff gets spun. You know, nobody. Nobody is proud of, ah, killing women and children. But there’s always the butt butt, you know, we got to get bad guys off the streets and, you know, if there’s some collateral damage that’s sad but unfortunate reality of things. And that, in a way, describes Iraqs Jima. In a word, it describes thehe Trotksy cities that fueled the Vietnam War. It describes every civilian drone strike in Afghanistan or Iraq or limit on, or Syria or Libya or wherever. Um, do we need to spell it out? Sure. Why not? Yeah, at Libya, you know the idea that we had to get rid of Khadafy for? Because he was Ah, a Gn evil guy justified the destruction of the country and turning it into an ungoverned wasteland where we had to burn the village in order to save it. In a way, you know, this is that’s the Hiro Shima, Mich? Yep. You know, there’s a new one for our time to which is George W. Bush is absolutely unprovoked, aggressive invasion of Iraq in 2003 when they just marched the Marines and the third Infantry Division straight in from Kuwait. And now anything less than that is fine. You look a There is a great example. This was Jeremy Scahill on the show with Bill Maher Wone time on HBO a few years back during Obama years and skate Khel saying, Look, I mean Obamas murdering people. You’re mentioning wedding parties? I’m pretty sure that was one of the points he made. Their tiny, innocent people are being killed by these drones. Ah, £500 bombs, Natta scalpel and kills innocent people and Bill Margo’s Yeah, but compared to George Bush marching the third Infantry Division into Iraq, that’s nothing. It is a surgical in comparison to this other bigger thing. So we could drone strike all damn day. Yeah, and this idea that evil scales, um in that becomes Maury evil or less evil. And that somehow matters. Uh, I just have a hard time with that, but it rests at the core of America’s actions. We we’d like to imagine ourselves as nice people, and we want tohave things like the hero she Momot or what you were just describing as a way to kind of remind ourselves that we are nice people. Um that, you know, hey, make mistakes. Everybody does. One of the things that has become so offensive to me as a thinking human being over the last three years is how all this gets garbled when it’s run through the trump filter. And, you know, we were in where we have revisionism about George W. Bush and how he did it. And certainly we have completely whitewashed the Obama years of war to the point where we’re now. Ah, I Every time I see an article about Yemen, I might My Awal searches grows that I’m like the group. You know, the my ulcer grows 10 times more because, you know, it’s like, Well, Trump is doing this in Yemen. Yes, he is. But did we already forget how we got started in Yemen? We did. We did forget that, didn’t we? And in a way, it’s like, man, I wish they could just forget that Obama did it that way. They’ll finally raise their voice against Trump. At least that is now. When it matters, you know, because you’re right, cause you never turn against their savior, the Democrat from Illinois. And this idea that history is that malleable. And we are that manipulable is why essentially the Hiro Shima myth has survived 75 years after being birthed in a magazine article in February of 1947. We we are willing participants in all this, Um, and it’s really quite quite quite shameful. I had a really, uh, kind of branching off of this and interesting ah, experience being in Germany. Um, and having lived many years in Japan, you know, when you go to Khera Sonoma, the museum there, everything starts on that August 6th morning. There’s no sense in Hiro Shima that Japanese imperialism started 30 years earlier and inexorably led to justified or not what happened in here. Oshima the Germans for for to give them some credit, have a much, much deeper sense of this and are willing to talk about it. Ind Dakhil, for example, the museum’s starts with the events of World War I and what happened in Germany between the wars, the stuff that that made the rise of a strong man who happened to be Hitlers could have been Eni number of a bunch of other guys, but Hitler was was was the one who made the rise of a dictator. Assn. Khowst Oo inevitable is as history allows and you walk away with a much better sense of having Bin Bin educated of understanding things help pieces fit together. I guess that’s so. I mean Khera the Hiro Shima myth. I I would be remiss to say that has been strongly driven and supported by the Japanese themselves. They are thrilled to death to claim as much victims status as possible for for those two terrible days. But they work closely with us to make sure that those days stand in isolation from everything that happened before in their case and everything that happened afterwards in our case. And so in a way, the politics of the Cold War contributed to the victims themselves supporting ah, false narrative because it tended to work out for everybody. Yeah, well, and you know, it’s sort of like what you were talking about with slavery and war at the beginning here in America, where same kind of thing in Japan, there, where people don’t like looking back and being honest about what’s going on there, too. They identify themselves with the collective too strongly, and so it’s an attack on their own psyche. I mean, that’s what this is all comes down to, right in social psychology. And whose side are you on? And what would your dad think of you if he knew that you changed your mind? And you agree with Jane Fonda about something now or whatever it is? And so therefore, kill them all before you think that you are like Michael Moore, which makes sense to me to write. No, Who wants to be like Michael Moore? But that’s the way everything is framed. So you’re here pro America or you’re not. And so if you’re willing to say, Look, slavery was absolutely this bad, and the genocide of the Indians and the end of the Filipinos and everybody else, for that matter, was this bad. Uh, if you’re willing to do that, essentially, it almost always comes packaged with a full scale anti Americanism. From the point of view of the right, it’s hard to find people who are American patriots but who also are perfectly happy to explore all this toe. Find out exactly what Awal it means for us then and now and in the future and this same kind of thing, and so it’s pretty easy to reject that. That was if I’ve really wanted to do this interview, right, Peter, what I should have done at the beginning if we want to really persuade people the first thing I should have done was lead with. Let’s talk about all the conservative Republicans and generals and admirals who opposed the war, because that’s the thing that gets through to people the most. And I’ve had people freak out about and heard a lot of stories to people freak out. If you’re against new Cannes, Japan, you must be the most anti American Communist piece of garbage in the world. And then you show him that, Oh, yeah, well, that’s what MacArthur thought, too. And that’s what Eisenhower and Nimitz thought. That’s what Leahy, the admiral chief of staff to the president, said, Don’t do this. I was not talk to make war against women and children, what in the world and so and then they go, 00 my God! A bunch of admirals and conservatives and Republicans and MacArthur, of all people, was against new Cannes, Japan, and it becomes very difficult. Mean the term cognitive dissidence is is to admit you’re wrong, too. Admit that you made sacrifices for the wrong cause is is humanly very, very, very difficult. And it’s perhaps even unfair to expect people who made those sacrifices themselves or sent their sons and daughters to make those sacrifices. It’s perhaps even unfair to try to ask them to to see this, true as it truly is, but we’re not them. And our job as historians auras, thinking people auras, folks who are a step or two removed is to try to look at these things. Maura objectively honest to God, if if I lost a Gn arm in the Vietnam jungles to try to tell me that that was all a complete waste of time, that’s a hard thing for me to get my self around right? I agree with that thesis. I see these thes the parkland kids on TV in the Park, Lindh dads on TV, and I just feel for them because to try to get someone who’s suffering the loss of a child, too. Objectively talk about these issues. It’s impossible. It’s not even fair to expect them. Unfortunately, there’s plenty of folks who will exploit that for their own political goals. But when you pull back a step or two steps or three steps were supposed to be smart enough to do that. And that’s why in talking about these issues and and in the book I wrote, I said it in a fictional portion of World War Two in hopes of giving the reader and myself, um, that distance, Yeah. Um, the book Evo Lt revolves around, ah, fictional struggle, and it’s all true, but it didn’t happen. And that means that hopefully we can look at these events as objectively as human beings are capable. Well, you know, you were in Iraq War, too. Not as a soldier is a State Department official. Ah, but doing work. I read the book. Finally we talked about it. I don’t know a year ago or something. Ah, the great book we meant well, And you’ve been able to, I guess, even while you were there Ah, you’re getting over it and and, you know, started blowing the whistle and about what was going on to the American people even during that time. But you know what? You’re not alone. There are a lot of people who served in, as they call it in Iraq War two and in Afghanistan and in other wars over there. Um, you know, in this century who have changed their mind about this, who are now remember Sentir Caesars Ons. I don’t claim Eni Eni Eni virtue because I happened to see through it while it was happening to me. What I’m saying is, is that it’s unfair to expect everyone to be able to do that. Agree? Yeah, No, I agree with that. I’m just saying Yeah, I mean, I don’t I do antiwar radio here, but the point is not to, like, seek out the fathers of dead veterans and tryto argue with them or anything like that. Or even the guys Huu who were in the war to confront them with it necessarily because, well, as you’re saying, you know, these were people who suffered losses. I don’t know some guy who was in Iraq war to I don’t know how many of his friends died in front of him. I’m not trying to pick a fight with a guy like that. He’s the implementer of the foreign policy. My fight is with the guys at the E e I and the Defense Department who got us into the war, of course, you know, and just his individuals there. I mean, just as an individual myself, there parts of my life I’ve been able to be introspective about in their parts of my life that I haven’t been able to reach that Ind. That I stumbled into it with Iraq. Good for me that I didn’t do it with something else. Ah, bad for me and I don’t expect that of other people, and it’s unfair to ask it of other people. What is fair is to ask folks who do already have that distance to be a lot more thoughtful about it, and then that either have that distance because they’re personally removed from a modern event or because we’re looking back at history at events that that none of us have more than 2nd 3rd generation Alaa contact with. And at that point, our excuses for not being introspective start to get a whole lot fuzzier. The idea of historically looking back, for example, I mean, we we’ve We’ve Peled around The question throughout this interview about where the atomic bombs actually necessary is intellectually a Gn interesting question. And it it’s It’s something that is worth talking about two to a certain extent because it informs the future. That’s where the value always is. I mean, you can go back and look at it. And the key is always is there some way that in the present that you can pull in some of the perspective, that of the future? In other words, you, you, you make it. You’re making decisions in your life right now. But, you know, I should I should I buy a new car? Should I? Who should I vote for? Should I do this? That or the other thing I mean, you know, we’re constantly doing that. And of course, in retrospect, when you look back at decisions, you have Maurine formacion and more distant. You know all that good stuff. So I mean, the key is always is there any way that to let what that bring that perspective in? So when you zoom into the Oval Office in June of 1945 and say, you know, Ms President we’re nearing the point where we need a decision on the atomic bomb. If you simply confine yourself to that window of time and say that Harry Truman, you know, had a had a birth defect that require refute, that didn’t allow him to think ahead. Whatever you know, then the decision to drop the bomb becomes Azzam obvious as it seemed to be Atto Harry Truman in 1945. The thing is, is that you hope that our leaders ah, are figure men and women than that. And that’s what didn’t happen in 1945. I’m gonna leave aside the question about that. This whole thing was a demo for the for the Russians. I don’t think that was a driving force in the decision to drop the bomb. I think it was in Harry Truman’s mind, you know, He was that he was a diarist. He kept I know how he had time to do anything else. He kept incredible diaries. Stimpson kept diaries as well. His diaries Air, actually, uh, available in the Yale Yeah, Yale Library and actually read through some of them. He has this incredibly neat handwriting. It’s really very easy to work with So both of these. We knew a lot about what these guys were thinking. Um, we’re not trying to put words in their head. We knew we knew what they were thinking. And Truman, for his part, was not really thinking very far ahead. And so I don’t I think, while the Russian thing was certainly probably Maura on the mind of some of his generals, Um, in Truman’s mind, he was a simple man, and he was told that we got a bigger bomb that’s going to make a bigger mess. And that’s the kind of we feel that the Japanese air Neads just Wone. They need a big push to get them to take the next step, which is to surrender, and this bomb is going to do that. And we’ve been working on it all these years, and it’s ready to go sign here, sir, and I don’t know from my own reading that it was it was a lot more complex that then that we had been blowing up people for a long, long time. In World War. Two civilians had been Awene had been targeted from from the opening days of the war long before America was even involved. And I think, without fully understanding what how evolutionary nuclear weapons were. I think in July of 1945 this was just seen as the obvious next step. Um, that said, Like I said, we hope that our leaders are bigger people than that. And think further ahead than that. Truman didn’t thing about bombing Kyoto and bombing Cem other places. You know, Stimpson was the one who argued against Kyoto. There was a target list drawn up, and it was essentially a series of cities that had not been heavily bombed. Otherwise, for whatever reasons, um, the military definitely wanted to blow up something that hadn’t been blown up before. They really were interested to see how this weapon worked. Keep in mind, they only they only had a lot of theory and, ah, handful of small scale tests that out in the desert in the United States, they didn’t really fully I know exactly what was going to happen. And they wanted to know exactly what was gonna happen. Because this this was gonna be the weapon. They were gonna be going forward with post World War Two. So there was clearly Hatin Kyoto was on that list because it hadn’t been bombed during World War Two. And, ah, Stimpson said, You know, Hey, I took my honeymoon there. It’s a World Heritage site A couple of the other people in the State Department said, Hey, if we blow up Kyoto, it’s gonna piss everybody off because it’s a World Heritage site And Truman said, Fine, I don’t care what we blow up. What’s next on the list? There wasn’t really an argument per se. It was more of a fine. You don’t want to blow up Kyoto Cannes. We blow up number two. What’s that? And that was kind of it. It’s like you and I are walking down the street and there’s three or four restaurants and I say, Hey, Scott, how about this one? And you say, Now let’s go that one, okay? I mean, it’s really that kind of casualness. So ticking over an ant pile. Yeah, and it was fine. I mean, the idea was Nagasaki itself was the secondary target right there. Would they was supposed to be ah city in Fukuoka. I’m not sure now, but that’s the idea. It doesn’t matter. It didn’t matter as long as it was more or less a virgin target. It didn’t matter which one it was. So in 1945 the decision was, I think, seen as not that big a deal. I think the big deal came afterwards when we truly understood the power of these weapons, and particularly as we moved into the Cold War, where the way that nuclear war was envisioned was not, as a Capt. Stone, 245 years of conventional conflict like World War Two, was kind of building up to this, but that nuclear weapons and the destruction of whole cities was going to be the opening of the new war that, you know, that’s where you get into the vengeance kind of thing. It’s like, Well, if the Japs hadn’t bombed Pearl Harbor and here’s a list of Japanese atrocities throughout the war, and you know, we lost all those guys in Guadalcanal and so they were really spoiling for this. Yeah, it fits, and it’s a very nice narrative that you know that Etit Atto, America’s Anger Rose and finally our righteous smiting occurred. But it got trickier when you’re talking about what was supposed what was believed to be headed in the future. Where Awene Monday morning. Moscow was a happy little city, and by lunch time it was a smoking ruin. And that was the opening shot and possibly the closing shot of a war. And so the destruction at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I think, caused people to start to think about this in ways that, honestly, I don’t think Truman was considering in July of 1945 mothers were but not Truman. Hang on just one second. Hey, guys, I got to tell you about Wall Street window dot com. It’s the great Mike’s Wansa Gn ah, he made a killing on Wall Street back in the day, and now he sells advice for reasonable prices. Do you need to know what to do to protect your assets? Wall Street Window, Dakar Hey, guys, I know you’re going to love Will Greg’s new book We just published at the Libertarian Institute. No quarter. The ravings of William Norman. Greg, It’s wonderful. It’s terrible. It’s devastating. Yul laugh. You’ll get angry. Yul Ms Him. You’ll be inspired to fight for freedom with Perfect Cover Art by Scott Alberts and a brilliant introduction by Will’s great friend and protege Thomas are bedlam. It is a fitting legacy for a brilliant man and nearly tireless defender of liberty. Get no quarter the ravings of William Norman Greg in paperback or kindle Awene Amazon dot com. Hey, tell me something. What year did you start working for the State Department? I joined the State Department in 1988. Ronald Reagan was president. I left in 2012 when Obama was present. So you joined. I was going to say you remember the core you joined right when the Cold War was ending and the Soviet Union was falling apart? Yeah, we were. We were We were there for it. It was It was, Ah, a heady time, as they like to say. I was actually in London working at that. I worked two years in London, Um, 1991 to 1993 which was a fascinating time because that’s things. You know, the wall went down in 89 but they took a while for things to really happen. And so we were being flooded with the Russian stuff, Uh, during those years in London because of London, as we all know, was always one of those magical crossover points, like Vienna or Prague, where the good guys and the bad guys saw Cem neutral territory. And so it was an amazing time. Um, we saw, for example, this great exodus of Russian scientists who poured through London, guys who worked on a lot of all sorts of nasty weapons programs and stuff who wanted to go to the United States or we’re moving to the United States, and we saw them pour through places like places like London. So no, it was a very exciting time. All right, so because what I want to ask you about is the threat of nuclear war now, because I have read things by people who seemed to be really responsible types. Um, for example of William Perry, who was Bill Clinton’s secretary of defense, saying that now is Azdi and he’s not alone. There are other people saying this to that. Now. The threat of nuclear war between the United States and Russia is as great or even greater than any time during the Cold War, the original Cold War. And that’s because I guess of NATO expansion so that the the buffer zone is now essentially non existent, but also the advent of hypersonic missiles and the shortening of warning times and all these things. What do you think? I can’t subscribe to that theory. Um, one of the things that was so pretty prominent during those years was how the threat of nuclear war had diminished because one of the great benefits was backing down all of the hair trigger stuff. Um, the hair trigger stuff, the idea that you might launch against me. So I better be ready to launch against you. And while you’re ready to launch against me because I’m Radia, lunch gets you. So I better be extra ready, don’t you know? And this kind of built up to the point where everybody had their their their finger on the trigger and was starting to apply it just enough pressure to get Goa the ball rolling. That all kind of tuned down. And in the aftermath of the Cold War, during those years when I was in the State Department, the stuff I was seeing and reading and being told was all built around accidents. Um, the great fear was that the Russians would lose control of nuclear weapons that they would end up in the hands of third parties, that the fact that people stop kind of caring the Russian military stop doing all the maintenance that they needed to do on the weapons meant that there was danger of accidents and things like that. Um, you know, you have to ask you way. I think we have a firm enough understanding that the use of a nuclear weapon between the United States and any other nuclear armed country means we’re racing thio Armageddon. We’re not that there’s not a stop point easily found in this game, and this was always what restrained during the Cold War, right was the idea that there was no halfway on this stuff, and I don’t know. I can’t think of a justification to explain why anyone would think there’s a halfway in it now and at the point where there were both sides acknowledge there’s no halfway. Once we start, we’re both going to be more or less obliterated. Um, that was an extremely powerful disincentive Tito war during the Cold War period, and I can’t imagine it doesn’t exist now. I also can’t imagine why anyone would I mean there’s plenty of reasons to keep the Ki building weapons. I mean, you know, that’s the industrial military complex. But to use them, it’s a different story. This is t just enlarge. And this is the whole idea about why there will never be a nuclear weapon holding Iran. The day that Iran has a first nuclear weapon will be the day that the United States and Israel obliterated, because the idea that they would that we could reach a Gn Armageddon situation in the Middle East is simply not acceptable. The there’s only 11 and 1/2 nuclear powers in the Middle East, that’s the United States and Israel, and that’s it. It will not be allowed to change. And I think the Iranians also know that, by the way. But that’s neither here nor there. There, there, there can’t be a nuclear standoff in the Middle East. It simply will not happen, and the United States and Israel will. Sure it won’t happen if you’re not sure if I’m right. Police guy, go back and look at what the Israelis did to the Ah Osirak reactor when Iraq was getting even vaguely close to ah developing something what they did to the Syrian reactor that supposedly the North Koreans help them build et cetera, et cetera. You know you’re not going to get there. The mistakes of the Cold War and that sense or learned, um, the Americans who wanted to destroy Russia’s nuclear capability. And whenever it was 1940 seven, Ayt whenever that was, you know, that argument has resonated with the United States and Israel in the Middle East. Yeah, well, in other words, that an LBJ should have preemptively attacked China before Maor was able to get his hands on Wone to Then you don’t know the problem with China is Israa was Russia. I mean, it wasn’t a Wone Awene Wone deal. You couldn’t have attacked China without bringing Awene nuclear war with Russia. The thing is, is that you can you could have I’m not advocating. But you could have attacked Russia at its nascent nuclear stage, and nobody else would have done a damn thing about it. Now, as far as the standoff between the US and China, the U. S. And Russia that hey, nobody wants to lose their capital city, they’d be crazy to use these nukes because then they’d be dead. I’m not so sure that precludes the possibility of war. I don’t know what the chances are of this kind of thing, but when you look especially at, sort of like we’ve been talking about this whole time, the level of just total nonsense and just lies and false premises and ridiculous points of view and regurgitated propaganda talking points about what is even going on here from the American side about containing and defending the world from Russian aggression and all his crap. That’s just not really what’s going on here. It all that America is attempting to force our world empire even Awene Russia and China who are powerful enough to be independent from us and so we can’t stand it. But if you tell anyone in Washington D. C. Come on, you guys know the Clintons and Bushies picked this fight caused this problem. They would deny it. No, it’s Awal Putin Ds fault. Harvard Boyz. What’s that? That’s ancient history. You know the warring for against Serbia? No, I don’t know what you’re talking about. The color coded revolutions. I’ve never heard of those. But what I do know is Russia, Russia Russia, Russia, Russia. And so that’s the kind of thing that makes me think that we can get into a war is that these people are like in a in a sense, insane, right? Like they’re thinking is so off base that I could expect anything to happen. Well, let me reassure you. And that is in a way that I think will resonate. And that is, war is not as profitable as preparing for war. Oh, I understand that. So if you look at it from the people who run Huu really run the United States, there is way more money to be made in making and maintaining nuclear weapons than in risking the use of them. And in that sense, if there’s if you needed nothing else to reassure you, maybe maybe hang on to that one that Ind. No, I just mean like, well, for example, I am. And I understand that, but say there’s a naval confrontation in the Baltic Sea or in the Black Sea, and then people start making ultimatums to each other. And then there’s another coup. Ind Belarus this time, or whatever it is, I mean, she can get out of hand No, but it happened constantly during the Cold War. The Russians in, you know, poke their their their, um, Armey into into countries all over the Middle East are all over Eastern Europe. The United States had its own little ah, forward front Awal through Central America that we were constantly bumping into each other with with submarines and surface ships and airplanes in all the coastal areas. There were little flare ups on the Korean board inter Caree, Ind board or whatever. It happened constantly during the Cold War, but it was in nobody’s interest, financial or otherwise, for it to get too far out of hand. End. You know, the military Zerg good at following orders. And the idea was that in each and every case, somebody back was told to back off and somebody backed off. And in that historical record is is should not be dismissed lightly. Yeah, I understand. Hey, who wants hydrogen fusion over their head? Nobody. Nadi Oo Grotius Tair Clinton’s but you know Okay, So here’s my last best point about this then. Which is what Pat Buchanan says about how we used to draw the line at the Elbe River and So when the Soviets crackdown in Hungary and Czechoslovakia and in Poland during Eisenhower, LBJ and Reagan, the American said Bayh, not my problem. Sorry, Charlie. You know, Karsi, I might have encouraged you to do it, but we’re not doing anything for you now, sucker. Um, but don’t you Soviets come in tow Western Germany? But that was seeding a hell of a lot to them, of course. Is the right kicked and screamed ever since Yalta. But point being that now we’ve drawn the line at Russia’s western border, and we have a military alliance with the Baltic states. And we keep working on overthrow Nas. Many governments we have to in Ukraine until the situation is is ah, you know, right for bringing them into NATO as well. And that this is the kind of thing where maybe the Russians would do something that we would severely disapprove of, but that I, Ge Eisenhower, would have let slide, but that now we can’t. Because now you’re turning your back on Article five of the NATO alliance and all of these things. Yes, yes, maybe. But I think you know this. Two conflicting arguments Atto. Ansar that But I think one or one of them will be the one that that that happens. And that is either that the Russians were smart enough to realize that the rules are a little different end. I understand that they have to participate within different rules or that that the U. S side will Nz recognize that the rules are made to be flexible. And you know, this little sliver of lot via that the Russians have always wanted their hands on or something is absolutely not worth nuclear war. Um, I don’t pretend to know enough about Ukraine to get into the nuts and bolts, but I can say that both sides have done an awful lot of weird, violent, nasty shit in Ukraine. And we’ve not gone to war over it, right? And and going back to the Cold War two when the CIA supported the Nazi right back then, too Well, I mean, that’s that’s a long tradition for us, But I mean, my point is is that the Russians let us do what we’re all the Dashty stuff we’ve been doing in the Ukraine. We’ve made a lot of noise about what the Russians have done in the Ukraine. But you know the troops we haven’t We haven’t dropped the paratroopers Ind to push them back or anything. The point is, is that I think both sides recognize the value of flexibility. Um, saber rattling and fist shaking serves everybody’s Neads, but actual war serves. Nobody’s Neads. And I think in the end of the day, as during the cold War of that will be what keeps the peace, possibly for all the wrong reasons or whatever, but I don’t think we’re going to war with Russia. Well, there you go, everybody. Humanity is going to survive after all the optimistic take from Pieter Van Buren today. And I’m sorry. You know what? I think you did respond, but I was still talking over here about when I mentioned Ellsberg Ds book the Doomsday Machine. Have you read that? Oh, yeah, of course. Of course. I have read everything Daniel Ellsberg has written. He’s a hero of mine. And one of the highlights of my whistle blowing career was when Dan reached out and introduced himself. And I got a chance to sit down and have dinner with him. Very cool. I had dinner with Dan Ellsberg, Hubble that that is very cool. I’ve got to interview him a few times and he blurred my book. So Yeah, that’s that’s not quite dinner, though. That’s great. But yes. Oh, that book will give you the heebie jeebies. And I guess he you know, for people who haven’t read it, he comes into power as the deputy assistant. Whatever in the White House overlooking nuclear stuff in the Jack Kennedy years. And he comes to find out that the plan is that if anybody shoots, anybody in Berlin were gonna nuke every city in Russia and China, and there is no other plan. And by the way, the war could start accidentally. About 150 different ways. And it was his job to go. Whoa, whoa, whoa. And try to rewrite all of this stuff and try to get the military to even admit what their plans were and all this Int Ind to try to make it Ah, nuclear doomsday machine a little bit safer to operate. Um, but then, you know, he kind of ends it with I am Bin there in a long time. I don’t know how they do it now and sea. I’m a subscriber to what? I’m I think I’m gonna start calling the George W. Bush Theory of History, where all of our presidents are nothing but George W. Bush. Winston Churchill. Nothing but George W. Bush. All of these guys are nothing but a bunch. I mean, look at the you would think Eisenhower would have been wise, but every bit of our mess in the Middle East is because of him and and his predecessors and successors. But you know what I mean? With that 53 coup in Iran and the aftermath and all of these things And so, um, I could see him screwing up. I could see him getting us all killed accidentally. Honestly, you know, possibility of accidents happening remains. This has been my theory on the Koreas, by the way. I’m just to throw this in. So everybody ca Gn tell me I’m right as as we as we watch the last sunset it is. Never mind that we’re gonna have a nuclear war with North Korea. I’m deathly afraid. Ofra. Chernobyl, like level accident in North Korea. That triggers the next thing. Um, that’s a good point. Yanover Yongbyong reactor. I’m sure you do know was built by the Soviets and is run off of pretty highly and rich stuff or certainly can be. It used to be run off. Even weapons grade uranium was fueling it back then. It’s harder than it is now. Exactly what Bhd is a big thing in North Korea. And so, no, my my great fear there is, isn’t Aksa Menagh Chernobyl level accident that causes the next thing whether that next thing would be, for example, the Chinese to intercede or a massive refugee flow into the South or some kind of military coup. Ibn pick. Pick your favorite nightmare. But those kind of things are far more concern to me because they lack logic. Atto The end of the day Whatever you want to say about Putin, whoever is the next Russian leader. These air still people that are trying to think these things through, albeit in a childish, ridiculously stupid way. But there’s still a thinking process that means there’s still a chance to retain her seat. But when you’re talking about accidents that trigger spontaneous reactions, there is no logic there. It’s just people running, and that’s the most dangerous situation of Awal of all time, right? Yeah. You know, there was that time they the airforce accidentally dropped a thermonuclear Gn North Carolina and eight out of nine safeties failed. I think they say right, you gotta wonder if that h bomb had gone off. Would they have been able to admit that it was an accident? Or they would have had to say it was an attack and respond as though it was an attack, you know? Yeah. So the accidents I think are right now would would worry me far more than Eni Williamsport Aires thoughts that the Russians are gonna launch a nuclear war or whatever. Yeah, well, Sanju I know it sounds like you got to go. But now we’re talking about Korea. So I want to know what’s your take on the latest coming out of those negotiations there. The latest mike by taking is the same take that. I’ve been offering Foer for two years now. There is room to negotiate. Always, and the United States may or may not have the skill and we may or may not give our diplomats the time in space they need. North Korea is an ultimately in an untenable position. They are going to have to engage with the world at some level, some point in order to to to survive and and to thrive. I think Kim Jong un understands that. I think he wants to find a way to engage with the world. He will not do that without the umbrella of nuclear weapons. He has seen far too many examples across the Middle East of what the United States is capable of doing to a country it doesn’t like that can’t defend itself. And the United States will I face the choice of engaging with a nuclear armed North Korea as a starting point, or we will continue to just kind of noodle along as we have for the past 75. Some years, Um, I am in favor of engaging with the nuclear North Korea of accepting that they will maintain a nuclear deterrent at in the initial stages of their re entry into the world, and I am adamant that their re entry in the world will ultimately result in their backing off of that nuclear deterrent. But we’re talking about decades of careful diplomacy here, Um, American Media, which is insistent that everything Trump does is wrong is not going to to move the needle on this in any way. And my hope is that some resolution or some positive steps Cannes continue to occur before Ah, an accident occurs. Kim Jong Un is a young man, but life spans in North Korea. Cannes could be cut short fairly quickly, and I I don’t know that there’ll be another up opportunity following him. I don’t know who would possibly succeed him could be a military coup, at which point there’s no more negotiations. Kim, I think ca Gn be diplomatically I don’t want to say manipulated, positioned into seeing himself as his store as a historical figure, the dung Shaoping of his nation, the man who preserved North Koreas sovereignty and what they want to call their culture while at the same time moving it into the modern world. If you had skillful diplomacy that gave him that opportunity to make himself that historical figure, I think there would be room to negotiate. I don’t know that the United States has ever been capable of that subtlety. I think in the current circumstances, between Trump’s sort of need for short term things and the American Popular population Ind Media’s desire to see him fail at every step. Um, I don’t think this trump is is capable. Ah, second term Trump. I’m not sure about that either. Eni of the Democrats currently, that would win in 2020 Natta chance at all. I think they would instantly back burner North Korea and we’d go back to just nothing. I think there is a window. Um, I’m seeing it closing now. And it’s a shame, I think, a year ago, year and 1/2 ago we history will say that way blew it. We missed a real chance to, ah, break down some of these barriers that could have led in the future to, ah, Non nuclear North Korea Doocy. Yeah, well, you know the one little piece of good news from this week is that Stephen be Guen? However you say it. The State Department negotiator on this who had previously said what you said that Hey, we’ve got to recognize that denuclearization would be nice, but it’s not first on the list we got to get, you know it’s okay. Thio, go ahead and make peace first and work out. Denuclearization later. Come on the only realistic approach here. And then he was overwritten on that Lider. Anyway, My point was that he was offered. Or at least they were talking about moving him to the Russia job, ambassador to Russia to replace Huntsman. And he declined it, even though apparently speaks Russian and is a great Russia expert. And he decided, No. I want to stay working on the North Korea case. Or maybe he had a a conversation with Pompeii like that or something, and he’s staying, so you know, it’s not. It’s not unthinkable, even in the current State Department. You know, he said that at a speech, and then was obviously overridden. But, like you’re saying is, it’s so obvious. It’s the only thing. And, you know, I don’t know if if Trump fails to do this, if only for political reasons. So he has something to claim as a victory. Um, then he’s worse than I thought, because he could do it himself. He didn’t need the Congress to ratify anything. He could just start lifting sanctions and normalizing relations in ways that you know can mean real progress toward normalization of relations. Sign a peace treaty to end the war from 1950 through 53 there. Yeah, you know it runs head on into the Siri’s or problems. Trump seems to want a big splash that he ca Gn use for the kelp Id Minh 2020. The rest of America seems to be rooting for failure so that in addition to the recession that they can’t wait to happen. They ca Nz a. Something else went wrong. Um, and the clock is running in North Korea. You know, we we like to think of Kim Ah and other dictators as thes Ghad kings that make decrees. And but Kim functions like every every so called dictator Kim functions inside of a system. Now he doesn’t have Nancy Pelosi and Deo see, but he has power centers in his country, economic power centers, military power centers, other political power centers that he has to juggle. And he has to keep on board and those internal windows open and close, the same as they do in the United States. They’re not as obvious to us, and they’re not is extreme. But Kim, on his own can’t just do this and he can do certain things but he can’t do everything. And skillful diplomacy takes that all into account. I’m sorry to say that. I just don’t see Pompeii. Oh, I wish there was somebody there that was a little bit Maura of a diplomat. I think Pompeii Neo Cees himself. As you know, Trump’s emissary to the State Department and Hmmmmm or keeping it all under control than than actually driving these issues. It would be nice in a second trump term or ah, maybe if Pompeii Oo quits sooner than that, Atto have someone there who is willing to play Amore active role and be a secretary of state. Maybe take this issue Awene Nas as their signature issue with Trump’s backing, Um, I mean, the president could only do so many things. He’s only one person, and there’s so much head water on this issue that it would be nice to get somebody. Huu isn’t named Trump kind out in front of it in hopes that the media and Democrats would would leave him alone long enough to try to get something done. Yeah, it’s too bad that he just, you know, uh, he has a few good instincts. A lot of them are really bad, but some of them are not so bad. Like, let’s get along with Russia and let’s make peace with Korea and maybe pull our troops out of Syria and a couple of things. But he appointed Awal Hawks to serve him in all the most powerful positions, so he can’t permit any of that stuff. All they do is argue with him all day long, and he gives in over and over again because he didn’t have anyone to stand by his side and say, No, you guys, he’s right. You know, Mr President makes a great point here. It’s it’s, you know, and his his instincts, they’re just that right there, hardly informed at all. So he he can’t win in an actual discussion or argument with anybody about stuff, you know, They tell him, Boy, if we leave Syria, Iran will take over and he goes, Oh, no, really, boy, I better not do that. Then and then that’s it. And we get kind of goofy partial solutions where we pull most of the troops out of Syria. But we don’t pull all of the troops out of Syria. Um, and she’s like, Okay, all right? Yeah. All right, well, but there’s not gonna be a nuclear war, so that’s good. Yep, we’re we’re safe on that. So, uh, yeah. Pay your credit card bills, folks, Student loans. You’re still gonna be on the hook for that story. But still, don’t whitewash the Hiroshima bombing. That’s the piece at the American Conservative magazine, the American conservative dot com. Thanks. Thank you. Peter. Graeme Beirt Neo Oo. Also check out we meant well, is his great website. All right, y’all. Thanks. Find me at Libertarian Institute dot or Ge at scott Kortan dot or Ge antiwar dot com and reddit dot com slash scott Horton Show. Oh, yeah. And read my book Fool’s Errand Timed and the War in Afghanistan at Fool’s errand dot us.

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The Intercept’s Trevor Aaronson joins the show to talk about the travesty of justice in the trial of Hamid Hayat, who has finally been released after nearly 15 years in prison. Hayat was an alleged terrorist, convicted based on a coerced confession he gave to FBI agents under duress, as well as recordings from his conversations with an FBI informant who had pretended to befriend Hayat’s family. Hayat is just one of many such cases of U.S. government entrapment, which make up the majority of supposed terrorism prosecutions.

Discussed on the show:

• “Reporters Questioned His Terror Prosecution. Now He’s Free.” (The Intercept)
• “The Confession Tapes” (Netflix)
• “Lodi Man Describes Terrorist Training” (LA Times)
• “US-led coalition ‘killed 1,600 civilians’ in Syria’s Raqqa” (Al Jazeera)

Trevor Aaronson is a contributing writer for The Intercept and executive director of the nonprofit Florida Center for Investigative Reporting. He is the author of The Terror Factory: Inside the FBI’s Manufactured War on Terrorism. Find him on Twitter @trevoraaronson.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; Washinton Babylon; Liberty Under Attack Publications; Listen and Think Audio; TheBumperSticker.com; and LibertyStickers.com.

Donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal, or Bitcoin: 1KGye7S3pk7XXJT6TzrbFephGDbdhYznTa.Audio Player

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Following is an auto-generated transcript of the episode.

sorry I’m late. I had to stop by the wax museum again and give the finger that FDR We know Al Qaeda Zawahiri is supporting the opposition in Syria. Are we supporting Al Qaeda in Syria? It’s a proud day for America. Ghad, We’ve kicked Vietnam syndrome once and for all. Thank you Very. I say it. I see it again. Bin These women are trying to simply deny things that just about everybody else except as fact Saud died way Kila, Naor Minh Khaleeq Illing Maale way Bol Cnet like, say, I’m Ain Bin Say it. Say it three times the meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world. Then that’s going to be an invasion Arak hard. You guys on the line. I’ve got Trevor Aronson from the intercept and author of the great book The Terror Factory, which, of course, is a reference to the FBI. Welcome back to the show. How you doing, Trevor? Good God. Thanks for having me. Eso happy to talk to you again and on such an important and positive occasion. Hama Id Hyatt from the big fake Lodi, California terrorism case of I think 2005 has finally been freed from prison. Do tell. Yeah, after after nearly nearly 15 years in prison, my Hama high it was released after US magistrate judge held an evidentiary hearing, realized that the case was highly problematic and recommended Itsu returning, which, ultimately the presiding judge seven months later agreed to and high. It was released earlier this month. Um, it’s a huge thing in the sense that you know, we’ve had more than 800 defendants convicted Awene international terrorism related charges since 9 11 lot of these cases were quite problematic and high. It is really the first that we’ve seen, where we have a full overturning and ultimately released on De no. I think it’s worth noting as I did in the story that, you know, much of this probably wouldn’t have happened were it not for the fact that you know media organizations, you know, I spent 15 years questioning and finding more and more about this case that that was problematic. And in the end, the evidence that the magistrate judge used in recommending Itsu returning, you know, would have been possible in Alexei Kode were it not for this kind of media scrutiny you know. So it’s certainly a travesty of justice that this guy’s Bin nearly 15 years in prison. But, you know, at least you know, the the small comfort is that justice was served even if it took a very long time. Yeah, well, let that be a lesson to young people in the audience to that. If people don’t do the work, the work doesn’t get done. A simple is that people like Trevor and people at the A, C. O. U. And writers for the L A. Times and other people who have been interested in this and decided for their own reasons to make this their issue. As you say, they’re the ones who made this happen. Natta matter of sharing the credit for boasting purposes or whatever, but in, you know, to show that it actually takes people getting up in the morning and making sure that they’re gonna do their part to free this guy or else it just doesn’t happen. He’s still sitting in this cell. Yeah, you know, I mean, I think so many of these terrorism prosecutions after 9 11 in the kind of hell to find, you know, the so called sleeper cells after 9 11 You know, we’re hugely problematic and quite Abusada, you know, Ind highest cage. You know, they found this informant who was working at a fast food restaurant, you know, making $7 an hour. And over the next couple of years, they Haithem nearly $300,000. And he’s the one that always told the FBI that high it was involved in terrorism. They had no had no evidence to support that. And then ultimately, what the FBI did was they interrogated him until a three o’clock in the morning, and he’s complaining that his head hurts. And they kept telling them, Hey, we know you went to the training camp. We know you went to the training camp and he finally just told them what whatever he needed to tell them to get out of that room, you know, not realizing that he was kind of built, you know, digging his own grave. And, you know, ultimately, he was convicted on that really problematic and coerced confession. And you know what came out of the evidentiary hearing and what came out ultimately through the reporting on this case was you know, witnesses were found in Pakistan. Huu Huu basically said, Yeah, he was in Pakistan. But, you know, you know, he just played video games that soccer the whole time we saw him every day. There’s no way he went to a training camp. And, you know, when even in the confession he gave the FBI, you couldn’t even really say where the Camp Wasat. At one point, he said it was Afghanistan. Another time, he said it was Pakistan. During the trial, the government, you know, went so far show satellite images that said, Hey, here’s the camp he went thio. But then it turned out there was an internal memo inside the government where they were talking about how the intelligence analyst couldn’t agree on which can’t be went to. So, you know, the prosecutors knew there was no consensus about what Kampeas went to, and yet they still presented to the jury as if there were a zit Wasat. And, you know, ultimately that’s you know how he was convicted Itsu. It’s really shameful. It’s a 14 years in prison for himto finally finally get free. And now I guess someone mentioned in the Reddit Room that his case is highlighted in Anu Netflix documentary Siri’s all right It is. I wasn’t I wasn’t familiar with it. That would be Neads Mea Gidi t hear more about that? There was something called the confession tapes. It’s a whole series about bad confessions, and apparently his is one of them. Oh, I have heard of this show. I didn’t realise Hijaz case within that. That’s really interesting. Yeah, yeah, even seen it. But I guess in that being too You know what? They might also talk about his father’s confession, too, because they’re really two confessions Hama High. It gave Wone and at the same time Hi. Hi. It was giving Wone. They took his father into an interrogation room and basically were like, you know, hey, your son, he confessed attending this training camp. You know, you you know, you probably visited him, and at first he was saying, No, I didn’t get any training camp. And then they said, Well, you know, if you went to visit this camp, it wouldn’t really be much different than like a You know, a parent in the United States doing a college campus visit further child. And at that point, Boomer, his father, you know, told them the stands. People story where, you know, there were, like, Wone 1000 terrorists or jihad. He’s dressed in a mask like ninja turtles with his term and that they were attacking with swords. These dummies that were made to look like George W. Bush and Colin Powell and Rumsfeld. And, um, you know, of course, immediately after he recanted and, you know, said, kind of rather tellingly that, you know, he based his descriptions on the movie the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which he bought three Sahili. It was clear from his confession that he was basing it on this ridiculous movie Ons. So both of those confessions were ultimately kind of coerced by the government, you know, in large part because Hama did and his father weren’t particularly savvy. Uh, you know, we’re Caucasus Kvit sophisticated about the criminal process and the FBI agents. We’re really going into these Cees interrogation firmly believing that these guys were involved in terrorism when in fact, they wanted Awal Well, okay, so I don’t wantto overstate this or whatever, but it’s really Wone continuum kind of a thing here, I think. And it’s the proof that with so many of these false confessions that torture does work and this is very light. No touch torture. Don’t get me wrong, but a couple of big fat, stinky cops in a small room with a bright hot light for hours and hours and hours demanding that you just admit this or just admit that and then with a bunch of promises that then we’ll let you go. Then you can go home. Then you can see your mom. Then you can have a drink of water. Then everything will be okay again. It’s really just out of 1984 where O’Brien is Winston Smith’s torturer. But he also administers the dose of morphine and says, See, I’m your big brother. I love you. I’m taking care of you. I’m good cop and bad cop at the same time, and what they do is they just shorten people’s time preference down, too. Never mind what happens in court later, and whether I’m facing 35 years or whatever it is. I want out of this room right now, and I’m willing to say whatever they want me to say to get out of this room right now, they promise me as a cold sprite. Yeah, absolutely. And that’s what happened in Hamoud case. That’s what happens in a lot of cases. I mean, you know, that’s what I always tell my friends. And, you know, I tell my wife and my daughter like, you know, even if you get pulled over by the cops, you know, for a traffic violation, you know, don’t volunteer anything you know, just, you know, tell them what they need to know, you know? And I think, like, you know, even if you didn’t get involved in a crime, there’s no upside allowing the Copt to kind of grill you and interrogate you and asking these questions. I mean, you know, the first thing Hama Id should have said and it probably would have prevented his prosecution was, you know, find Mea lawyer, Please. I’m not talking, right. And, you know, they could have him wait there all he wants, but they’re not gonna grill him and, you know, keep him up till 3 a.m. With the questions the way they did on Ge. I think that that is kind of the abusive side of law enforcement. We see that in a lot of cases, especially among people who just black the sophistication about how the process works, where the cops get him in there and they say things to him and they get you know, as you said, they’ll like, you know, you know, Are you thirsty? Like, Well, you, could you just tell us what we want? We’ll get you a drink You know, there’s also it’s also important to realize that you know, it’s a lie. It is a felony offense to lie to an FBI agent. You know, if he asked you, Have you ever been to Pakistan? And you say no and you really have potentially You could be process at the same time. It’s not a felony offense there. It’s not a defence at all for an FBI agent, Alija De you. So the FBI agent could say, Hey, your partner over there in the other room, he said, You did it. Time for you to confess, right? Uh, Eni. That may have not happened, but often that was used in in interrogation. And so the FBI and most law enforcement has this obscene advantage in these kind of settings where, you know, I think people who are unsophisticated ultimately end up saying things that that bury them. And that was definitely case Ind Hama Hyatt prosecution where, you know, the, you know, the single piece of evidence they really had was his confession. And, you know, I think in a lot of cases Juries are willing to believe confessions. I think they’re really they’re not skeptical. I think they should be. And I think there’s a feeling among Juries that you know, Hey, these FBI guys like they’re they’re they’re the white house. There’s a good guys, you know? They’re working on our side and for, you know, for the side of justice. You know, that isn’t always the case. And it certainly wasn’t the case in Hi, it’s prosecution. Hey, guys. Scott here, I got some books you should read. The War State by Mike Swanson A great history of early Cold War. No, Dev, No ops, No. I t by Hussein Badi Aq Chessani How to run your computer business like a good libertarian. Oh, yeah, And don’t forget fool’s errand. Time to end the war in Afghanistan by me. Hey, y’all, Here’s the thing. Donate $100 to the Scott Kortan show and you can get a Q R Kode Commodity disc as my gift to you. It’s a one ounce silver disc with a Q R code on the back. You take a picture of with your phone, and it gives you the instant spot price and lets you know what that silver that ounce of silver is worth on the market in Federal Reserve notes in real time. It’s the future of currency in the past, too. Commodity discs dot com or just go to scott horton dot or Ge slash Donate. Hey, guys, you know you probably need a new website a lot of people do. What you need to do then, is Goa to expand designs dot com, the great Harley Abbott and his team over at expand designs dot com. They’ll hook you up with a great new website for 2019 and in fact, what you really should do. His type Ind expand designs dot com slash scott, and you’ll save $500 Well, and so this is the thing about it, too, and this is one that’s always really stood out among all of the bogus prosecutions, and there’s been so many of them. Uh, and there’s a lot that I can’t just think of off the top of my head. But there’s a solid dozen or more than I can. But in this one, he actually was never really entrapped into doing anything. He didn’t accidentally put his fingerprints. Awene. Cem guns. He didn’t saw off Eni barrels. He didn’t attempt to detonate Eni fake explosives. He never really did anything other than the way I remember. There was a phone call. We’re the informant, and I want to talk more about the foreman in a minute or asking more about the informative Minh. But the informant, Sicily, just browbeat him on the phone that like, Come on, say you love Osamas. You love me, don’t you? You promise we’re friends, and you have to say, Just say you love Osamas. And then this confession, essentially that said that he had been to a camp. But other than that, that was it, right? Material support based on that 25 years or what am I missing? Yeah, that’s pretty much the case, you know? I mean, you know well, a lot of these terrorism thing operations ultimately bring people to the point where they have access to a fake bomb. That, of course, the FBI provided. And the case ends when they try to detonate that bomb. So the FBI has a very clear, you know, this is what he did. And this is why we’re prosecuting him in Hama Gn highest case. Uh, you know, the FBI really didn’t have any proof that he attended a terrorist training camp, other than the conversation he had with the informant where he was basically saying he was going to do that and the conversations that issued the interrogation and confession that he gave to the FBI and in the informant. You know what, this guy who was making tons of money from the FBI and and really had questions about, you know, there were clear questions about his credibility. You know, the reason the FBI came toe enroll him as an informant was that they had gotten a tip that, you know, post 9 11 he was living in Oregon and there were questions about, like, whether he was involved in, you know, some sort of terrorism, and they looked in that claim and it turned out he wasn’t the guy They were looking for. But then when the FBI was there, he was like, Hey, you know, I have some information about Ayn Minh else. Watery. The Al Qaeda number two are Hama Bin Ladens deputy. And so the FBI became very interested. He gave them what information he had, and it turned out it was bogus. You know, the the prosecutors later claimed it was just a case of mistaken identity. You know, a more skeptical version of that might be that he was just feeding them information in the hopes of getting some money. But it works because then the FBI, in this post 9 11 rushed Atto, Sino informants bring him on board. He ends up going to Lodi and getting involved in a relationship or friendship with Hama Id and his father. And over the course of months, you know, like common In these cases, the target of the investigation ends up kind of having this kind of little brother relationship with the informant and the informants in Hama Ds. Case got him on the phone when he was in Pakistan. It was like you’re going right, like, you know, you support a Hama Gilad, and will you you’re going to the training camp and on the phone. You know Hamadeh like, Yeah, yeah, I’m going, I’m going. And it turns out he was just saying that, you know, just kind of satisfy what the informant was wanting him to say with no real intention of going. And so then ultimately, when he returns to the United States, the FBI is working from this information that he had given the informant that he planned to go, and then they interrogate him and get this confession. Well, it turns out we could say definitively nearly 15 years later that you know what he was telling the informant was just crap. He was just telling the informant what he thought the informant wanted to hear. And then ultimately, the confession he mixes his bogus that he was just willing to tell the fbi anything to get out of that room. And you know that that’s what the case was based on. And so, you know, in the spectrum of post 9 11 terrorism cases, you know, this was on the very far side of egregious because, you know, at least in these entrapment cases, you can point to the fact that the guy did do this, right? He did have this fake bomb and he tried to detonate Ind Hamadeh Ioffe case. You know, the government really couldn’t even prove that that he attended this camp and then, you know, when they tried to present to the jury, you know, they ultimately presented pictures of this camp that internally, it turns out, you know, there was even questions of whether that was the real camp, but that’s not something they disclosed the jury at the time. Now refresh my memory. His grandfather’s house in Pakistan that was in Karachi, remember? I believe it was just outside Karaki because it was a very populated area. I have to look up the city, unfortunately, but they will have in front of me. But one of the issues that came up in one of the questions of the case, But it was really urban area. And you know, when he was after that described where one of the terrorist training camps Wasat he described it as being in this, like Fourest Id encampment in the city. Which is ridiculous because there is no way this kind of urban jungle with it would accommodate something like that. And so, you know, there were clear signs that the FBI should have been like, What is this guy talking about? Like, how can there be a camp in this in the city, this air in this more urban area? Andrei, you know, yet, like, there was this kind of suspension of disbelief among the FBI, You know, whether it’s, you know, they want to prosecute this guy and put him in jail, or they just really were kind of true believers that they just thought like, Yeah, this guy’s definitely involved in terrorism. Yeah, well, you know, it’s been a few years now. I’m pretty sure you linked to this L a Times story in your peace. Maybe I just Googled it up. But there’s a l A Times story all about this a few years back, um, that, I guess centered around a former FBI agent who himself saw the confession video and said, This is just a travesty and join the fight on the side of the lawyers here. Um, but nowadays you can’t see the video anymore. But when the L. A Times first published that story, they had the video from the confession. I don’t know the whole thing, but clips of it anyway. And so I didn’t get a chance to check the Netflix thing to see whether they, um, included this stuff or not. And so I am just going essentially by memory. But I had kind of retold the story a couple of times. So I remember it pretty well that you’re part of it Was the FBI agent essentially just leading the kid to say Goa grandfather’s house. It’s in Karachi, Khatt, which is essentially, like the most innocent place you could be in Pakistan, right. Are you sure it wasn’t Int Islamabad? Oh, uh, yeah, sure. Ihsan Islamabad. I don’t know. Yeah, my grandfather’s house. Ihsan Islamabad. And then all of a sudden, a couple of clicks later. And now it’s in Kandahar, right? It’s outside of Kandahar city in the Kandahar province, in Afghanistan, right with Taliban country, you know? Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah, it’s in. It’s in Kandahar, if you say so. That’s why I was training without Kadir Ind Cannes. Jowhar? Yeah, and then And this is support where people are gonna think I’m lying. But the point is that that this is the FBI who came up with this stuff. They say they He says that the training camp is in the basement. That’s how they hide. It is they have an Al Qaeda training camp in his grandfather’s basement. And then So the cop says to him, and what do they do down there? And he holds his hands like he’s pantomime ing holding a stick, right? Like if you were gonna finish his sentence for him, you might suggest Trevor that Oo they like practise stick fighting or something like that. But the the FBI agent says, Pull vaulting. They’re practicing pole vaulting, and the kid says, Yeah, that’s right. Al Qaeda terrorists are practicing pull vaulting in my grandfather’s basement in Kandahar. Take me away sexually, and the FBI Injun is like, Oh, yeah, where you’re going to the penitentiary now, buddy. And you know, I don’t know what to think. That I’m supposed to believe that the f b I agent believed that that this is I thought you had to have ah ah, Non floor Id Ayt Id I Q of at least 100 and something to be an FBI agent. No, I mean this is complete nonsense. And it was so transparent and ridiculous to sit there and watch that. Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, I think the that you’re talking about is a former FBI agent named James Wedeck on Ge. He was He was brought in fairly early, I think, by the defense lawyers after the conviction that Atto look at the confession tape. And, you know, he had been a supervisory agent. He works for the FBI for more than 20 years, and his first instinct was, Well, yeah, that this this confession is is bogus that you clearly Bin Goward clearly Bin off leading questions on Goa. It was highly probable, problematic. And and you’re right. I mean, you know what logical FBI agent would really think that a bunch of Al Qaeda terrorists are training underground, you know, put using and in the tax, they do mention pole vaulting in the text of that l a Times article so people can find that even if you can’t see video of that, Yeah, I mean, and that’s part of what’s interesting. Last confession isn’t it really is all over the place because, you know, as the FBI is giving him cues of what they’re interested in. He’s just kind of like following along, right? I mean, I included a part of the interrogation in the story with her. You know, they asked him, like, you know, three Emmy thing is head is hurting, and they’re like, they’re like, Well, we we really wanted you to know, like we need to know what? What? They told you to target what you’re gonna attack, right? Like so he obviously being told, like, yet provide them something. So he’s like, they Elmi Goa Khattak building. Like, what kind of building? And it’s his response is like a big building and other things like that. Like what else? Like what he says, like store. And like, what kind of stores? Like food stores, right? It’s just, like kind of going with whatever they’re saying. Just adding the most simple adjective, every everything that they want on Goa It it did seem pretty clear that this guy was just telling them, you know, whatever they wanted, but scary enough like, you know, it resulted in a conviction, right? A jury convicted this guy and he got sentenced 24 years in prison. Originally, Manan something else all right, So let’s go back to the dad’s confession a little bit. This is I know much less about this part of the story here, but you you mentioned before and it’s in the article about how they had told him. Listen, if you did go and see your son at this camp, that’s essentially like if you were just visiting him at college. In other words, they were leading him to believe that if you agreed to this narrative that this doesn’t implicate you in any crimes. We would consider this to be innocent behavior, but we’re just trying to get confirmation from you of what we know of this story. But I wonder whether there was a carrot or stick kind of thing There were they threatening his son with a worst charge Or or maybe promising Cem leniency for the sun. If the father would just go along with this part of the narrative or do you know so how they let rumor was that they basically they claim they told Huu Mirwais, Look, your son, you know, is in the other room, and he confessed attending this training camp, and, you know, we don’t think this is a big deal because I’m summarizing their words. You know, in Pakistan it’s part of your culture. Yugo to these training camps. And, you know, I’m sure the parents go and visit the kids at the training camps, and, you know, really not a big deal would be like, you know, if you went to visit him, it would be like, you know, someone here visiting there, their kid at college to check out the campus. And they really just minimized humor, the significance of what had happened. And, you know, we’re basically framed that, like, you know, we think maybe something happened here, But if you can explain it, we could make this all go away. And so at first, Aamer, you know that he didn’t attend the camp, He didn’t know anything about the camp. Um, and then finally, he ends up telling them what they want, and you know what he did. What he said to them is that you know, he you know, there was this large camp and there were these, like, 1000 fighters. And he used the term like warm ass like ninja turtles and and really describe it, like over the top setting Foer this camp and, um, you know, a few days later he recanted and says, Like I said, I didn’t. You know, I made all of this up because that’s what the FBI wanted me to say. And, you know, ironically, the FBI ultimately, um, you know, acknowledged through the Department of Justice that they realized they agreed he made it all up because they charged him with making false statements to the FBI, and he ended up pleading guilty. And I think he served a year or two in prison as a result on Goa and those with false statements. Was him agreeing to their narrative? Exactly. Exactly. And again, this is like another good cautionary tale. Foer like dealing with the FBI, right? Like again, You can lie to you. But if you lie to them, you know, you’re facing a possible felony charge. And so they browse Bayh, browbeat him into saying I pay. You attended this training camp. There you are. You visited this training camp and then when he finally like Okay, Okay, I visited it. And here’s this like description of it. I’m just gonna make up for you. They charge him with a felony of lying to the FBI. Because, in fact, he did lie to the FBI. I mean, under the law, he was guilty. He did lie, but, you know, in in a way that the f b I kind of like Oo worst from him and again, like I mentioned earlier, Like, you know, it really doesn’t benefit Eni defendant whether you’re innocent or guilty to talk to the FBI for this exact reason. You know, Atty humor just said I have nothing to say to you guys call me a lawyer. They would have had any case against, right? I mean, it was entirely prosecutable because he lied during interrogations, charging him with the false confession that they forced him into. I mean, that’s like Sandra Bland pulls over for the cop, and then he pulls her over for not using her turn signal when she pulled over for him. What the hell? Yeah, you know, But that’s that’s what the FBI does mean. Lying to the FBI is among the more commonly filed charges. You saw this kind of commonly in the in the Moler. Prosecution’s right. Like almost everybody charged with charged with, you know, charges, including lines of the FBI. And it’s a way of just kind of either, you know, kind of like throwing one more charge at someone or, you know, in a case like Huu Aamer someone else. But if they’re not able to charge her with anything else, so they’ll charge based on that, perhaps with the hope that you know they’ll cut a deal and say, OK, I don’t want to go to jail, but I’ll give you information on on such and such and other cases, it’s just pure, in my view, like retribution. You know, the FBI pissed this guy, you know, don’t pull their chain with this kind of ridiculous description of a terrorism training site and kind of embarrassed them. And so they’re like, Screw you, man. We’re gonna file, you know, filing lines. The FBI charges. I don’t think, you know, it might be unfair to kind of say it so bluntly, but that’s how I kind of you some of these prosecutions sometimes, Yeah, absolutely. Of course. Uh, that’s exactly how they are. And this is the problem, right? Is like you’re talking about. Hey, man, you just shouldn’t talk to the cops get a lawyer and let your lawyer handle it. That’s his job kind of thing. Um, it’s because you have this weird cross between them being human beings, like literally standing there in clothes and everything, but at the same time, they’re not really humans. They’re agents of the state. And so that means that your interactions with them are an entirely different set of rules for anyone else. So I saw a defense attorney one time say that. Look, for example, whenever you’re talking with anyone else, you try to always give us much credence to what they’re saying is you can just being polite. That’s straight out of Dale. Carnegie howto win friends and influence people, you know. So Seri says to you, Well, did you ever think about doing this or doing that? Well, I don’t know. I might have. You know that. You know, you go ahead, you try to be agreeable, but that’s a really that’s a reason why you should not talk to cops because you’re gonna fall into the habit of being a decent and kind person. But in fact, what you’re doing is you’re giving them rope to hang yourself with whether you again, whether you actually did anything or not. And it turns out they don’t really care if you did anything or not. They have their own incentives for putting you in prison. I have nothing to do with justice whatsoever. This isn’t the Perry Mason show. Yeah. LA Force, in many ways, is a hammer looking for a nail, right? And so, you know, if you kind of are interviewed by the FBI are other law enforcement agents for any reason. And, you know, if you got in trouble, you know, whether it was drugs or you’ve got, like, mental illness issues, Or maybe you weren’t in trouble at all. You haven’t done anything. You know, the FBI is not looking there to help you right there. Not like if you’ve got drug problems, they’re not looking to help you get, you know, get straight. If you’ve got, you know, kind of domestic violence issues the problems at home. They’re not there to sort that out right there, there to figure out if you committed a crime. And if you did, they’re gonna arrest you, right? There is not a social service agency. And so the idea that, like you should provide them with any information. You know, it is incredibly risky because the only purpose for that information is to use it against you on. So there’s absolutely no upside whatever to talk to the law enforcement Awal. And I think you know, I think that’s something Americans really don’t know enough about Andar familiar with with, You know, it’s kind of like, you know, we talked a long Forsa you say you don’t want, you know, they talk like Oo Badi hiding. It’s like, Well, you have every right not to incriminate yourself provide information needed, you know, And I don’t I don’t do drugs, for example, and I’ll drive around with drugs in my car. But if a law enforcement agent stopped me for a traffic issue and was like, Hey, can we search your car? I have nothing to hide, but I’m not gonna let him do it right. You need probable cause like you get just like search my car and, um, you know, and I think that’s you know, I think that, like, you know, if anything, Huu Hama highest cases is a really kind of extreme example of how this could go bad for you, you know, you know, end up volunteering information to federal law enforcer in any law enforcement agency, because Ultima they built the case, You know, almost entirely on what he told them. Yeah, and, hey, you know what? Hypothetical example. There’s some very serious crime or innocent lives at risk, and you have information that they really do need to know. It’s so bad that it’s better to be a rat that not even and I don’t mean turning in your friends on a drug charge or something. But I mean, something really bad is gonna happen. Call a lawyer and have the lawyer call them. You still don’t need to talk to them. That’s what lawyers are. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, if you do want to report a crime like you say, like, hey, I just saw three guys run into a bank with a bunch of guns, you know, call 911 and just leave it at that, you know? You know, examples where, like if the cops come to you and ask you questions about things you’ve done, I mean, generally, that’s not a good place for for anyone. Atto. Bobi, you know. And that highest cases Cravatts great example of how wrong that Bin Goa, you know? I mean, it’s one thing to be cooperative with law enforcement and reporting criminal activity that may be happening. Your neighborhood. It’s another to be cooperative with them when they’re clearly investigating you. And if they’re asking you questions about what you did and where you’ve been, I mean, they’re, you know, make no mistake there. They’re investigating you. Yeah. All right. Now, um, back to the specifics of this case again here real quick. Ah, a couple of important points here, I think. First of all, um, the informant here just infiltrated this family. This father and son. There was no group, right. There was no politics. He just found a father and son and made himself kind of. And this happens. People are familiar with this, like Fonzie or whatever, right? Like the adopted son he calls the dad dad. And then he treats the sun like it’s, you know, like he’s big brothers and Big Sisters of America or whatever, and kind of insinuates himself into coming. Some group of father and son. That’s it. He makes himself part of their family just to put words in this child’s Oo. I guess he wanted Charlie was, like 21 at the time, right to put words Hewitts the young man’s mouth, right, right. Yeah, he was young. He was a fairly sheltered guy. They lived in Lodi, which is the agricultural community that has a very large Pakistani population. And you know, the informant, Aamer Hakan, you know, basically became part of that family over, Of course, of course, of Munther. And that’s not unusual in a lot of the stairs and prosecutions where the informant will will kind of establish this really close and intimate relationship with the target of the investigation. And you know, the reason for that in kind of the the most cynical sense is that the FBI’s paying this guy a lot of money to find terrorists. So, you know, by getting to know these people, he’s able to kind of manipulate them into saying things that he needs them to say in order to kind of bring it to the FBI. And that’s what happened in this case. And so, you know, as Hama Hyatt goes toe to Pakistan, and I believe the initial purpose of the trip was to try to find a potential bride through an arranged marriage situation in Pakistan. Ind. Thean Foer Minh dates back to the United States with his father, you know, and even that he’s talking to his father and he’s talking to Hama Hyatt on the phone and and really trying to get him to say, you know, uh, they want to attend this camp and you know, he’s interested in Al Qaeda. All of these ideas are ultimately coming from the informant, which in turn is ultimately coming from the FBI. And as you said, the kid is on the phone. He’s essentially just b s ing the informant just to get him to leave him alone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I promise I’ll go to the camp when he had no intention of doing so. And as you say, they’re sworn testimony. He was instead playing video games, right? Right. And I think, you know, I mean, really what? This is something that simple. It’s like, you know, Com Id was a fairly immature guy. You know, if if you think back to your school yard days and you wanted to fit into a group and, you know, you may be mimicked the things that those kids in the other group did and said no, that was really what was happening with Hama Id and the informant, like Com Id was just like, you know, saying the things that the informant, you know, initially brought up and you know, either to kind of fit in because he didn’t have a lot of friends. He wasn’t particularly social or, you know, just to kind of make it go away like Hemat. And I’m sick of you bothering me about this issue like, Yeah, yeah, I’ll go, I’ll go. And that’s ultimately how it came off. But, you know, if you’re being generous to the FBI, the generous view would be that they really expected this guy was involved in something pretty dangerous. And so when he says that, it confirms that, believe, you know, if you’re being more cynical about what the FBI was doing, that they were kind of skeptical. But, hey, they’ve got a prosecutor beautiful case because the guy said this, Um and it really wasn’t a case of like, you know, is this really, you know, involved in terrorism because he just, you know, the evidence shows he clearly wasn’t. And again, I mean, it would be one thing. It would be bad enough, Assn. Case that stand on stands on its own. But keep in mind that Hama High it is One of more than 800 people have been caught up in these post 9 11 terrorism investigations. And indeed, there have been some that have been dangerous and some that may have posed a threat, but a vast majority We’re not involved in terrorism did not have connections. Terrorists. It was really made possible through the actions of undercover informants, undercover agents. And, you know, so you know, what we’ve done is we’ve, you know, really busted a lot of people that really shouldn’t have been busted. And I think what this is also done, you know, kind of bring it forward into the moment we are now. You know, we had all of these largely Muslims convicted and in cases that are very well publicized nationally in these terrorism cases, and, you know, I think we’ve begun to kind of view this as, like, you know, culturally, it became like Awal terrorism is a Muslim thing because ultimately all of these cases inflated the perception in the United States that you know terrorism from Islamicism is incredibly dangerous and prevalent, even though the vast majority of these cases were largely manufactured by the government. And so the time we get to 2016 and Donald Trump is running for Peress United States, you know, he can say things like, You know, we should shut down immigration from Muslim countries until we can figure out what the hell is going on, right? Well, like what he’s referring to are all these, like terrorism prosecutions, that I’ve kind of been in the ether for 15 years? And I think, you know, if you’re if you’re really kind of looking at the long narrative of this, I mean, you could point to the FBI in these cases that kind of setting the mood for the current kind of Islamophobe were now in agree? Absolutely. And you know, I mean, the thing of it, too, is I remember, probably even in our earlier interviews, you know, probably going back to the Bush years where we talked about how, certainly, on my show we talked about this in different contexts. that. You know, they have to fake all the terrorists because Al Qaeda was only 4 500 guys. So they have to come up with all these bogus cases. But then they use the September 11th attack to launch all these other wars, and so is easy to predict it. There will be real blowback, real backdraft, even or in a you know, it’s short term consequences blown up right in your face. Um, like, ah, when you have veterans of America’s jihad in Syria blowing up targets in Europe or you have, you know, um, the Orlando attack and er zat ze and a couple of the others have been I guess what? See, in my book I list about, I guess, 1/2 dozen eight or 10 um, riel terrorists not entrapped by the FBI, but really bad guys. But they all started. When did they start? In the Obama years, right? It was. Fort Hood was the first major Wone. It took years for Bush to really provoke Eni real ones. And in the meantime, Bob Mueller was happy to entrap hundreds of people, As you say here. And these fake ones. Um, now they do both, but, you know, like in the case. Oh, that was you that taught me this. In the case of the Boston attack, when the Russians had said, you need to look out for these brothers, they said, Yeah, yeah, yeah. We’re busy in trapping some stupid kid on the other side of town. Pay attention to the rial Wone going on right there, which is another one we warned about. I know that you and I weren’t about back in history. That as these cops are Awal chasing their tails on these bogus entrapment cases, you’re gonna have real guys slipping through the cracks. Which is then exactly what happens. Yeah. I mean, the FBI is very good at finding these. Like you knuckleheads, too don’t have connections, Atto International terrorists don’t have any weapons and getting them wrapped up in cases and busting them. But the people like Omar, Mateen and the Orlando Attacker and others, you know, these were people that really fell through the fbi’s dragnet, and they weren’t as good at finding these people. And I think you’re right as well. I mean, in addition to these Bayh cases, kind of setting the stage for Foer. You know, Islamophobia we have now. There’s also this really strange kind of narrative in question that we have in this country about terrorism, for Islamist terrorism, which is always just kind of like, Well, I don’t understand why they’re attacking this. Why are they doing this, right? How do we stop it? And if you look, I mean, they actually tell you, right? Like there as an example that there was a guy affiliated with Isis claiming allegiance. Isis, who tried to bomb the bus terminal in New York City. Fortunately, his bomb suicide bomb did not go off. And, you know, he told police that you know the reason he did this. He saw his neighbors wedding in Pakistan, you know, get blown up from a drone, right? And then he’s like, I’m gonna, like, avenged. And so I think one of the things that we don’t really think about is that there is now I’m sorry. You’re referring there to the Times Square attack of 2010. This was This was a couple of years ago, I think in 20 16 17 there was a failed bombing attempt at the at the Port Authority bus terminal in New York, a guy claiming affiliation with Isis dropped the bomb to himself and tried to blow it up. But it didn’t blow up. I think it sparked a little bitty costs. I’m burning to his chest. But ultimately he survived. And he had had told the police that, you know, the reason he did this was, you know, because of this thing drone attack of this wedding Monde. You know, it’s instructive in this sense that, like, you know, part of, you know, we are inspiring terrorism, right? And, you know, after the Iraq war, you know, in our kind of general policies in the Middle East, you know, there’s some of what we’re seeing is a reaction, right? And there was a story recently about how you know, when Tony Blair was being pushed to support the Iraq war, you know, is national security advisers had written a memo that basically said, You know, if you do this, if we’re going to Iraq, we’re gonna destabilized that reason. And what we’re going to ultimately see is attacks in Europe, you know, from, you know, people coming out of that war. And that’s exactly what we’ve seen, right? And so I think you know, this is also kind of part of the narrative on terrorism to it. I think it’s really silly to be having this conversation of like, Well, why do they do this? And, you know, you know, there are certainly people who attack for, you know, you know, just over the ideological or homicidal reasons. But, you know, in some of these cases they are attacking in response to our own policies. Whether that’s whether that air strikes in the Middle East Foer drone attacks. And you know this is their way of of settling that score exactly. And that’s the thing right is you know you can accuse him of war crimes if they’re attacking civilian targets. That doesn’t make their actions legitimate in any way. It just any more than when our side attacks civilian targets or helps the Saudis attack civilian targets or whatever the case is. But it’s just to recognize the reality that the reason that they’re doing this is because they’re in a war. They’re on the other side of Wone, Um, but, ah, as you say, the same thing with virtually all of these guys Moti Gn or the czar, Negev brothers or any of these people going back to the first World Trade Center bombing. They always say exactly what their motive is, and the motive is always Americanflag Gn policy. Yeah, we’re gonna have a conversation about what causes terrorism. You know, I think part of that conversation that we’ve never had it like, What is our role in that right with how how have our unjust wars and how have our our bombing’s? You know, there’s this perception. I think, in the culture that the way the U. S bombs is like, we have these precision bombs and we only kill the targets, right? And like, that’s not that’s not the case at all, right? I mean, air wars more recently documented How, you know, in the in the kind of in the attempt, you know, destroy Isis in Syria, you know, we were carpet bombing lots of eastern Syria. We were killing civilians, right? And so this is you know, we may You know, the irony in all of this, of course, is that maybe we finally brought Isis Isis to its knees in Syria. But you know what other extremism and terrorism are we going to inspire in the future by those sorts of action, like carpet bombing towns and cities. And, you know, I think these are the kind of harder conversations Atto have about the roots of terrorism and back to the entrapments. You know, there’s I don’t think a single case of these entrapments where the rat didn’t say to the mark. Don’t you hate American foreign policy? Get what they’re doing, right? So this isn’t lost on the FBI. The FBI doesn’t have their informants tell these people. Don’t you hate freedom? Don’t you hate it? That blonde girls in miniskirts, Cannes vote in primary elections and blah, blah, blah? No. Don’t you hate rated R movies? No, that’s not it. It’s killing people. That’s what the FBI informants use to manipulate their marks in these fake cases over and over again. No exceptions. I don’t think you told me if you know of any, and you wrote the book on it. No, no, you’re actually right. You know, I mean plenty. Often here, like terrorists are terrorists. Politicians will say about terrorists, like, you know, they hate our freedom, right? That’s why they do this. That’s not why I do this and and and you’re right, even in the even in these terror something cases where the FBI is planting the idea, you know the inspiration that they work with this idea of American foreign policy in the Middle East, whether it’s, um, Armey bases in Saudi Arabia, near Mecca and Medina, or whether it’s bomb strikes in, you know, in Iraq, in other places in the Middle East there drone attacks. And that’s really what they’re working with is this idea that, you know in the United States is killing with impunity in the Muslim world. And you know, they’re what they want to do is offer a way of striking back on that. And, you know, obviously you know, I don’t think, you know it’s right. It all that you know, these terrorists trying to do the things they’re doing. But I do think it’s wrong that we’re not having a more honest conversation about America’s role in inspiring those types of, uh, that type of violence. Absolutely Right now, one more subject Foer let Yugo here, and that is, you know, you mentioned about the FBI agents. If you want to be charitable, you can say, Look, they were scared and then they had all this confirmation bias, pull vaulting. I knew it, whatever you know. Or maybe they really were just being that cynical and they don’t care. Hey, let the jury decide. And what have you, this and that? But here’s the unforgivable port is they told the local news. And, of course, the national news, too. But they told the people of Lodi, California, that we found a terrorist, okayed a sleeper cell embedded in the Pakistani community in your sleepy little town. And this was a community that had lived there for a guest since the 19 eighties, something like that for a while, and had had no problems and got along were well integrated into the society and everything. And all of a sudden, in the most apocalyptic terms are supposed security force. Here are public servants to protect us in all this stuff came and drove this giant wedge between the Pakistani dash American population of that town and everybody else. And you know, who knows what kind of collateral damage came from that. But I bet it’s far worse than we know for sure. So I mean, there’s a couple of things don’t pack there. I mean, one is that, you know, what we’ve seen since 9 11 is the FBI and the Justice Department generally really overplay these cases. And you know, the reason I argue that they do is that, you know, post 9 11 the FBI is an organization that is not only a law enforcement agency, but also in intelligence and counter terrorism agency. But they measure their success. They justify their budget through the old school metric of law enforcement, which is arrest made great. And so it becomes part of their culture to take in large budgets for counterterrorism and counterintelligence and then announce with great fanfare, these cases. And in many cases, that means over stating or blowing the case and at the same time what that ultimately does by making a big deal about these cases as being terrorism cases. When the links for terrorism are at times, 10 us or even not existence is it creates, you know, a lot of suspicion between the targeted communities, mostly Muslim and the other communities where they think well, like, you know, are there terrorists among us. And I think when the average American, you know, beat the news or watches the news. They hear about a terrorism bust in their community involving Muslims. You know their first suspicion. You know, you know, they’re not staying up on the news as you and I are and researching this I mean, there’s, like, you know, Americans trying to get through their day, right? You can’t blame him. And I think, you know, as a result, their their immediate reaction is like home. There must be danger among this, the Muslim community. And I think we’ve seen that drive wedges in communities around the country. And again, I think it’s what feeds into a lot of the Trump policies now and fed into his own election campaign, which is this idea that you know, this this group is very dangerous. Rond we need toe, do something about it, whether it’s to re immigration or even more draconian policies. And, you know, I think that’s the kind of terrible situation we’re in now, where you know, pre 9 11 Muslim communities in the United States were very well integrated into communities. They were among the most affluent of immigrant communities in the United States and So it’s ironic that post 9 11 we then kind of portrayed them largely as a bookie man. And you know, that isn’t to say that Islamist terrorism isn’t really right. Like it obviously is. We talked about the Orlando shooting and others you know, there have been attacks, but, you know, there have not been those on the level that, you know, we see portrayed by the FBI and Lodi is an example of that, right? You have this very well integrated Pakistani American community in Northern California. There was no record of any substantial problems with that community. And suddenly, post 9 11 you’ve got this really traveling that problematic case and the FBI is pouting like, Hey, we found the sleeper cell and you know, ultimately, what does that do for the reputation of that community in California? It largely Impey use it. And I think that’s something that you know Muslim communities around the country are struggling with. Now is like, you know, how do we kind of get past the reputational damage that these kind of cases and policies have have reached on us in our own communities? And I think that’s why more and more. You see, organizations like Khair and others, like trying to hold, you know, kind of meet and greets and, you know, dialogue to kind of show that, like, Look, this is we’re just like you. Here we are. You know, we’ve been rather vilified and we’re trying to figure out, you know, how we could go back to, you know, the time before we were vilified. And, you know, I think you know, I think now we’re also seeing the vilification of other groups now in different ways, right? Look, Hispanic immigrants, you know, Assn. Being sources of economic problems or crime as the current administration is portraying them. And so, you know, it’s troubling to see, you know, kind of the expansion of the policies in different ways toward different groups. Awene. That, of course, is a lot of blowback from America’s drug wars in Mexico and Kode Ayt Ons and support for all sorts of right wing hunters and policies in Latin America and all that, uh, otherwise people of ah Awene Door’s probably Wana live in their hometown where they’re from like everybody else. They’re fully in something and it’s the policies of the last government of course, Bayh Louay. One last thing here, which is simply that it goes without saying always. But I think it’s worth saying We all know there’s no chance that there will be accountability for any of the cops, the prosecutors, the judges, the jurors, the prison officials and all the people involved in conspiring to deprive this innocent man of his liberty for the last 15 years here. Hey, we got qualified immunity. Mistakes happened. Ah, who cares? It’s not at our expense. It never will be. Is this Logan of the federal prosecutor and it? Everybody knows it to such a degree that it’s essentially unthinkable for me to bring up the idea of accountability for these people who did the wrong thing, whether deliberately or not, is preposterous. It makes me the kook for even saying that it’s something that we ought to consider is a thing that should be so. I’m happy to play that role. Yeah, no, I mean, I think you’re absolutely right. I mean, even if you look at Debra Barnes, the magistrate judges a recommendation to have Hama Gheit case overturned, she went out of her way not to directly criticise the government’s behavior right? She pointed out the problems with the case but did not take on the government. And that’s fairly common. Amman. The judiciary Unfortunately, where I don’t think you see the courage. Atto. You know you don’t bring the government, you know, task on some of these issues or take the governor’s task on some of these issues. And, you know, so the prosecutor prosecuted cases. Career won’t be affected. The FBI agents, of course, those confessions, their career won’t be affected. And I think that’s part of the problem that these abuses continue is that there is no accountability. Andrei, separate from the judiciary of the other area where the FBI could be held accountable is Congress, and we all know how that’s going right. Like the Congress isn’t, you know, willing toe really question the FBI about much of anything unless it involves the Moler investigation. And so there’s all sorts of problems that you see in the FBI and unwillingness Atto really address them either Ind Idi, Nashiri or in the Congress. Yeah, well, Greg used to joke about there was ah, Tom Clancy movie with Harrison Ford. You know, one of those from the 19 nineties, where the movie ends with Harrison Ford, takes a stack of documents and marches up Capitol Hill. And then, like the sun sets in the credits roll. And you know that that’s the point when accountability kicked in, right? Just how alien that is to our way of life. That’s not at all how things are around here, but it makes for a fun kind of ah, closer to a movie Hour and 1/2 is up, you know. Anyway, yeah, I worked in Hollywood, but not unrelated. Alright, listen, I can’t tell you how much I appreciate all your great work. You’re great. Book the Terror Factory which started out life as an article Foer Ah, Mother Jones magazine Naway Back before David Corn invented Russia Ge Ayt There was something interesting published in that Monde Gn uh there’s the terror factory, the great book and all of your great writing at the intercept dot com, including this one. Reporters questioned his terror prosecution. Now he’s free. Thank you again, Trevor. Great. Thanks so much. Every Bibi Non. All right, y’all. Thanks. Find me at Libertarian Institute dot or Ge at scott Kortan dot or Ge Antiwar dot com and reddit dot com slash scott Horton Show. Oh yeah, and read my book Fool’s Errand Timed and the War in Afghanistan at Fool’s errand dot us.

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Gareth Porter explains why the claim that the Russian government “hacked all 50 U.S. states” is false—namely, the states themselves know that their systems were intact! The narrative has nonetheless been pushed continuously, as democrats try to justify Hillary Clinton’s 2016 loss by any means necessary.

Discussed on the show:

• “U.S. States: We Weren’t Hacked by Russians in 2016” (The American Conservative)
• “Russia Targeted Election Systems in All 50 States, Report Finds” (The New York Times)

Gareth Porter is an investigative historian and journalist on the national security state, and author of Manufactured Crisis: The Untold Story of the Iran Nuclear Scare. Follow him on Twitter @GarethPorter and listen to Gareth’s previous appearances on the Scott Horton Show.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; Washinton Babylon; Liberty Under Attack Publications; Listen and Think Audio; TheBumperSticker.com; and LibertyStickers.com.

Donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal, or Bitcoin: 1KGye7S3pk7XXJT6TzrbFephGDbdhYznTa.

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Following is an auto-generated transcript of the episode.

sorry I’m late. I had to stop by the wax museum again. Give the finger that FDR. We know Al Qaeda Zawahiri is supporting the opposition in Syria. Are we supporting Al Qaeda in Syria? Hrant, It’s a proud day for America. And by God we kicked Vietnam syndrome once and for all. Thank you. Very. I say it. I see it again. Bin These are trying to simply deny things just about everybody else except as fact Saud died way Kila Bayh, Armey Mutawakil Ind Maale we Bol Beito like say I’m a Bin Say it, say it three times the meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world. Then that’s going to be an invasion. Dohuk All right, you guys. Well, the thing that’s not true was set. And so Gareth Porter wrote an article about it. And so now it’s time for Meteo interview him about his article. He wrote about the thing. That’s not true. Welcome back to the show. Gareth, are you? Hello, Scott, But glad to be back. I’m fine. You’re good at your job. Thanks. I needed that. Uh, I could use all the encouragement I can get. I got plenty here, man. Uh, interview number 300 20 or so U S states we weren’t hacked by Russians in 2016. That’s the headline at the American Conservative magazine. Essentially, what happened here was the Senate came out with this report based on this old De HSE report that you already debunked a solid year ago. Is that about it? That that’s the That’s the background. Exactly. Yes. Okay, so the Russians, I guess that means the Communist KGB trying to kill us and disrupt our society by making black people think that they’re the subject of racism and stuff like that. I read at nbc dot com. So, um, you know, go ahead and tell us what it was. I guess First of all, don’t let me just make fun of the whole thing. The Senate Intelligence Committee came out with this report saying that the Russians hacked essentially all 50 states air tried to Yeah, this is this is the most astonishing thing about this report that they actually, you know, made the argument that that Russia probably hacked all 50 states, and it was based on nothing Maura than the say so of Ah, the opinion of the Obama administration’s hype. Security. A cyber security specialist in the NSC, uh, who didn’t know anything Mauricia than that. He just felt that that was the case because there was no pattern to the apparent or alleged hacking or targeting shall we say that he could find. So the lack of a pattern was used to suggest that that it’s probable that Russia simply hacked all 50 states or tried to hack all 50 states, which is perhaps the most absurd claim that I’ve ever seen in an official document issued by a major congressional committee that’s supposed to be doing serious, serious investigation. Well, I don’t know. I’ve read Cem Kufa stuff in some of the reports before Lif corrected on that. But anyway, that’s an impression. Yeah, no, it’s absolutely, uh, otherworldly. The amount Well, the level of stupidity. I guess that they presume we must have to buy into this stuff. That’s certainly true. And, you know, I mean the point. The point, additionally, that one has to make about the claim that Russia probably or simply the claim that they did try to hack 50 states into their electoral websites is that you know that the Intelligence Committee report doesn’t even substantiate. It’s more fundamental claim the one that it’s more serious about that. The Russians tried toe hack or targeted, as they say, UH, 21 states, at least 21 states is the way they put it. And and, as you say, I did debunk that one. Um, I forgot Gn when it was more than a year ago, I guess. Um and I have written about it twice, in fact, but ah, this this time around, it’s even Maurizio Ge GIs for them to make that claim. Because, in fact, I mean the rial headline in this story. The headline should have been something like, Ah, you know the states themselves refute the claim Maidan The intelligence Committee’s report that you know about the attempt to target 21 states because the states themselves, although not all of them, uh, clearly articulated a position in the or are clearly shown to articulate a position in the report those that did, which I believe is roughly 17. If I haven’t understood, remember correctly, Um, no, None of them actually support the contention of the report of the De hs of the committee that that they were hacked by the Russians or that they were targeted by the Russians. Uh, and and most of them, clearly their report clearly refutes it, suggesting that either there was no sign of Eni attempt to hack into their ah websites or certainly not by anybody that could be identified as Russian or if there were attempts to break in or two to scan. Ah, scanning was the most common term used. It was simply that that there was a ah, basically was using a tool to try to scan the website that was identifed that had been identified by the FBI as a um as a tool associate Id with the Illinois break in the break in. That actually stole some 200,000 personal files of registered voters. Uh, and and so, of course, the Intelligence Committee and the De HS have always claimed that the, uh that that tool using that tool is somehow evidence of Russian hacking Oo are hacking attempt. But in fact, you know the tools that they identified Wone was ah, Akkad genetics. Um, and the other one sq l ah at the SQL Tool. Uh, they’re comin. The tools used by Awal hackers or attempted hackers on the Internet. I mean, these air just absolutely the most common tools available, uh, to to anybody who wants to try to, ah, scan or or to probe a website on the Internet S O. So it’s absolutely not evidence off of any Russian attribution Oo or justification for ah, Russian attribution of these probes and scans. And so you know this is this is really a perfect case of just how ah, the the system, including the Senate Intelligence Committee, the D. H S and the FBI have promoted this this phony idea about Russian hacking into the election systems of the United States. Hold on just one second, be right back. So you’re constantly buying things from amazon dot com Maor. That makes sense. They bring it right to your house. So what you do, though, is click through from the link in the right hand margin at Scott Kortan dot or Ge, and I’ll get a little bit of a kickback from Amazon’s into the sale. Won’t cost your thing nice Louay To help support this show again. That’s right there in the margin at scott horton dot or Ge. Hey, guys, check it out. Investigative reporter Ken Silverstein is launching a fund raising campaign to support his writing of a new book about Marco Rubio, an effort to overthrow the government of Venezuela. This will be no defense of the Maduro regime, which Silverstein opposes. But it’s certainly be devastating to its American enemies, who are operating far outside of their constitutional purview. Helps support Kenzo effort to get to the bottom of the interest behind America’s plot to overthrow the government of Venezuela at patriot dot com slash d. C. Babylon. Hey, guys, you got to check out the bumper sticker dot com. You play in a band, you need stickers. Yugo the bumper sticker dot com Maybe you have a business and you need stickers. Yugo to the bumper sticker dot com They’ll take care of all this stuff. I created the company back. I don’t know Generation Goa. I sold it to Rick McGinnis, and he’s done a great job with the company ever since they got what you needed over there at the bumper sticker dot com. All right, Now, are you sure this is really you mentioned? The SQL map and the this other. Ah, Aq. You have every cue Knittig ce over these Andrei, these air very common. Is that it, though? I mean, there’s not ah ah more specific accusation. Tying this to the g r u. Somehow it all just you know, they the pattern of activity, the thing. The thing that happens in this report is that that the Senate Intelligence Committee quotes the VHS in every case of ah state, which they cover, um, as saying that the g r u attempted to hack into this state’s ah election ah, or or into the States websites, public facing websites. And so that’s sort of the formula that’s repeated over and over again. But there’s nothing Maura my way of serious evidence that’s offered for this. Um, I mean, they sight Ah ah, the site. The the I P addresses. I didn’t mention the I P addresses. That’s the other thing. There are a few cases where the I p address that was used Foer The Illinois heist, if you want to call it that were found in scans efforts to scan a public facing website in the States. I would my recollections that would possibly was five or six? Uh, maybe four. Possibly four or five. Um, that that did, in fact, mention the i p address in the state reports. But that’s it. Basically, it’s the I P address and the tools the hacking tools that were used in the Illinois case which the FBI then set out to the states to all the states, Uh, release the 21 states. I’m not sure they sent it to all the states, but they sent it to these 21 states. Uh, and ah asked them to report back to them on any evidence that they could find in checking their files that either the tools or the I P address. Ah, one of the I P addresses that was used in Illinois. I was, um, was found in their in their own case. And so, you know, that’s, you know, some of the some of the states reported back that yes, they found one of the I P addresses or the hacking tool that have been used against a public facing website. But, um, and and in a couple in a very few cases, it was both Ah, it was a, uh, website that was related to the election as well as other websites. Um, so you know, that was the That was the state of their ah, of their the sum total of their evidence. Basescu. Um and then the i P address was tied directly to G r U headquarters Awene Spy Street in Moscow. Right? Uh, I’m not sure that that’s the case. I’m not sure that that’s the case at all. They didn’t say that. There’s nothing that said that in this report I’ve not seen anywhere else. I think he said it of the Wone are a few of them were traced to this server in Siberia. That was apparently Dr Alaa Ehren case. Yes, of course. Different question. Uh, you’re right. Of course. Uh, there, there is this, uh, this argument that well, after all, he’s I p addresses were traced to a server in Siberia. Ah, and that somehow that could be a suggestion that somehow the Russians were involved. But of course, in fact, that’s not evidence of that at all, because a server located in a particular location has many I p addresses. Um, that are not connected with that with that country. Of course, some of them. Maybe, but some of them are not. And, um, uh, you know, it’s this with this point has been made by cyber security specialists Awene more than one occasion. And, uh, the the fact is that the Intelligence Committee and the FBI are perfectly aware that this is not a, uh, riel ironclad indicator of Russian involvement, Russian government involvement at all. In fact, there’s a quote that I have in my story in the report that, uh, actually indicates that the De hs and and the Senate Intelligence Committee are perfectly well aware of this. That it said that I don’t have exact words in my head. But it said something to the effect that, um, the I p address, um er could be an indicator of a possible Russian involvement I have here provided some indications the activity might be attributable to the Russian government. That’s extremely weak. Extreme week and and to my mind, it’s the most damning thing in the entire report. All right, well, so who cares about house cards is built on quicksand can look good. In a snapshot on CNN for a minute, Senate report reveals that the Russians attacked every voting system in all 50 states. We’re at their mercy. Whatever we’re gonna do to defend ourselves from this aggression. Yeah, well, of course, this is Ah, that this is one of the worst cases ever of abuses by the mass media. I mean, the New York Times story is absolutely the worst. David Sanger was the author or co author of that story. Um, in which the headline Leat blared out You know, Hiran s Excuse me? Russia got around in my mind. Russia Ah, hacked Awal of 50 states. Uh, and of course, uh, this was not was not even clarified in the story itself. Ah, Sanju Norwin ahead on the premise that that the that the intelligence report actually showed that Iran had had hacked into 50 states. Sir Akkad, 50 states. You know what Cem artists should do A comic book about David Singar. You could have so much fun with something like somebody if they’re crazy enough to, uh, want to do that and make a real star out of him, you know? Yeah, well that he deserves, he deserves special treatment. He’s been doing this for more than two decades. If I remember correctly or at least almost two decades, in any case, all right, Well, now so take us back to a year ago, because again, it’s the new Senate report essentially recycling this old VHS report from a year ago that you already debunked then, right? Yeah. It’s essentially the same story line, but But with this new twist of the 50 states claim Plus, you know, sort of having a state by state round up, Not not all the 21 because there’s, ah, a couple of states that, uh, are not, um, you know, not clearly. There’s not a clear report on them, but but basically, it’s ah, report on the 21 states and ah, the the claim of the De hs. In each case, the g r u was behind it. Ah, but that’s ah, that’s the only riel new element. And it plus, you know, I think they went so far as to you know, they have ah, long quote, most of which is redacted. Um, from the, um ah. From from the report that, um had to do with the I P addresses and the, um I guess it was. It was about the i P addresses as evidence. And as I say, I think they went too far. And they actually included this quote, which is quite damning. The rest of it, we don’t know what it was, but it appears that some of the redacted material what were arguments that have been made against using the I. P address? Yes, it’s about Russian attribution and And what was What were those? Well, we don’t know because they were redacted. We don’t know what the arguments were, but the sentence ah, that we’re talking about here begins with, however So that suggested that, ah, that this sentence was following some arguments that were against the idea that could be used to just two would attribute this to to Russia. That’s funny. Um, all right. And now So now, back a year ago, you went and actually talk to some of these officials at the state level and then some of them, and talk to some other media sources. And you have a pretty good run down here of I guess they made the biggest deal about Illinois. Sahih have Cem quotes. Orbi else have Oregon and California and Arizona, I think, Can you take us through some of that. Well, yeah. Um, Arizona is the most interesting one because it was highlighted in the report, uh, as a case where the FBI thought they really had him here. Ah, they thought there were two cases where the Russians were involved in efforts to hack. Ah, the electoral system. One of them was, ah, a local official who had gotten his credentials. Internet credential stolen, um, Awene by a spear phishing operation. And the other one was, uh, what was claimed to be a hack of a Gn election of a public facing election site. Well, it turns out that the, uh, the case of the Ms of the stolen credentials was not attributed. Could not be attributed the Russians, after all that the FBI backed down on that, but they continued to argue that the other one, the public facing Internet site, was a Russian operation. The only problem was that it turned out when the when the Arizona officials confronted the De hs with their denial that any of their election sites have been hacked into or there was any serious effort to do so. Ah, the De hs admitted that the site they were talking about was the Phoenix Public Library. And so this this is the one that the FBI has not yet given up as a supposed Russian operation. That’s so far though, the Arizona cases the most amusing Wone and the other the other cases have to do with the state election officials again confronting the D. H s. For example, if I remember correctly, Minnesota did this confronted De HS officials and got them to back down on their claim that that that their electoral website had been have been scanned or somehow serious effort had been made to penetrate Cem. Um and same thing happened with, um with California. Um And what was what came out of these various cases where the state’s actually stood up to the D. H s was that the De hs publicly admitted that they considered that Eni Eni time Eni public facing website um on the Internet. Foer within a state had been scanned that this was this could be considered evidence of a Russian effort to penetrate the electoral system because it was a case of trying to enter a website or get into a Beppe website that might have similar characteristics that was the wording they used. And so I mean, this was the kind of argument that the D. H s resorted to in order to include more states in their list. In fact, most of the states would come under that under that rubric of of the fact that they that some website was scanned that could have the same characteristics as a state electoral, election related website head. It’s a very sneaky kind of approach, which I written about before and I think deserves public. Ah, condemnation. Yeah, well, you know, it’s funny because when it comes to Russia Ge Ayt mostly we think of the Mueller investigation and you know, Carter Page didn’t do it, and Papadopoulos didn’t do it, and Flynn didn’t do it, and Sessions didn’t do it. And the whole collusion narrative was bake. And then there’s focus on Huu really hacked the DNC or leaked thumb drive worth or whatever exactly happened with that and this kind of thing. But there’s so many of these extra side stories, um, of Russian interference that sort of made up for the I don’t know, which called the background noise, essentially Oo they attacked our electric infrastructure. Awal. They attacked Awal. The voter rolls Oo they, you know, tried to disrupt this. That and every other thing. They had a secret server communicating with Trump Monde. And there’s just such a long laundry list on. It’s sort of like the way that they claimed Iran was making nuclear bombs 100,000 times only This is just 100,000 separate fake claims, but it really is a lot, and you really have whatever percent. It may be a narrow percent, but boy, were they deeply committed to this narrative of the Russian attack on America that gave us Donald Trump’s government and all of this. Yeah, I just want to make the point, though, that this narrative about the effort to hack into the alleged effort to hack into state election Web Sepp uh, it has been extremely significant politically in this country because the public absolutely believes that the Russians did, in fact, hack into election systems. And a friend of mine who lives in California, who I spoke with on the phone, he and his wife on the phone, uh, she piped up and said, I told her what I was working on what I’d written about. And she said, But the Russians did hack into our election system, didn’t they? And and so I mean, they absolutely believe this on. And this has been extremely damaging in a fundamental sense to the stability of this political system. And by the way, I mean, you know, and the whole show, I mean your anecdotes. Great. But Jeremy Hammond wrote a piece debunking this the other day as well that we Raan Awene antiwar dot com. And he quotes the poles of where among Democrats, I’m not sure, overall, but certainly among Democrats, it’s super majorities believe this and could never be convinced otherwise, either. Yeah, I know it’s true. Of course, the Democrat is the Democrats. Huu fundamentally believe that I understand that. I mean, a lot of Republican. I just mean and it’s in high high numbers to absolutely Yeah, yeah, it’s And so it is. You know, we saw with Iraq war to where the Republicans were so committed to Iraq or two, and then they never really came clean on. It just took, you know, through by the end of the Obama years, they were able to admit that Okay, Yeah, well, maybe shouldn’t have done that. Not that I was wrong about it or anything, but it took that long for them to sort of climb down from that and really for Donald Trump to finish it off by attacking Jeb the way he did. Really helped with that, I guess. But it took that long for the pro Iraq War, right to sort of forget all that are, you know, Cees identifying with that pro war pro wreck or sentiment that they had previously held. So is it going to take that long for these Democrats to get over this nonsense? Ghafoor, You know, two term administration Post Trump before they’re willing to admit that. Okay, that really was just the c A. B s in us. Yeah, it’s very, very interesting question. I don’t know what the answer is, and I think in fact, it’s It’s ah, it’s very possible that if there were sufficient questioning by Cem Ki people political of figures in this country about this narrative that it could very quickly collapse. I think that’s that’s a possibility. I think it collapse. The collapse of this could be much quicker than the one on Iraq potentially, Cem. I should have. When? When the Mulla report was wrapped up. And that was the end of that. Anyway, I’m sorry. I just realized how late I am for my next interview. But thank you so much for coming on the show to talk about this again with scared Bin. A pleasure. Thanks Guen. Aren’t you guys? That’s ah great Gareth Porter. He’s at the American conservative dot com U S states. We weren’t hacked by Russians. 2016 Stupid liars. All right, Yul. Thanks. Find me at Libertarian Institute dot or Ge at scott Kortan dot or Ge antiwar dot com and reddit dot com slash scott Horton Show. Oh, yeah, And read my book Fool’s Errand Timed and the War in Afghanistan at Fool’s errand dot us.

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