Jacob Hornberger explains why the American president has become a democratically elected dictator, largely through the president’s power to manage the economy by threatening businesses, negotiating trade agreements with foreign countries, and issuing executive orders that impact the way private companies run their businesses. Donald Trump has put this on display the way few previous presidents ever have, but his protectionist policies are also a big part of what got him elected by middle-American workers who feel left behind by the so-called “Obama recovery.”

Discussed on the show:

Jacob Hornberger is the founder and president of the Future of Freedom Foundation. He’s written numerous books on freedom, peace, and the JFK assassination. Follow him on Twitter @JacobHornberger.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty ClassroomExpandDesigns.com/ScottWashinton BabylonLiberty Under Attack PublicationsListen and Think AudioTheBumperSticker.com; and LibertyStickers.com.

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sorry I’m late. I had to stop by the wax museum again and give the finger that f d r. We know Al Qaeda. Zawahiri is supporting the opposition in Syria. Are we supporting Al Qaeda in Syria? It’s a proud day for America. Ghad Kice, Knut Gnehm syndrome once and for all. Thank you Very. I say it. I see it again. Bin are trying to simply deny things just about everybody else except as fact Saud died way Kila, Bayh, Armey Khaleeq Illing Maale way Bilgin Cnet like say I’m a Bin Say it, say it three times the meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world. Then that’s going to be an invasion. All right, you guys introducing Jacob Hornberger from the future of Freedom Foundation He sits founder and president and he writes every day at f f f dot or Ge slash ble Aug Welcome back to the show. How you doing? It’s an honor and a pleasure to be with you, Scott. Doing fine, Thank you. Great man. Happy to have here lots of stuff to cover today. First of all, are you running for president as the Libertarian Party candidate or not. Well, let’s just say that I’m contemplating the possibility have gone to I don’t know, seven or 89 state conventions in the spring to kind of get the lay of the land and to deliver a talk. My philosophy on the title of talk is that hearing the principal is everything. And, um so I’m contemplating the possibility to answer your question. All right, Well, can you give us a timeframe of when we might expect to find out? Uh, no. But I mean, you know, keep in mind that this this this political cycle where people announced a year two and advances around Otim Pillay new phenomenon in me by the time you know, January rolls around everybody’s Awal, burnt outboard and so forth. I mean, when when John Kennedy announced for president, he didn’t he didn’t do until November of the preceding year. That was what was just standard. And so there’s really Akkad. I don’t see any reason why any of these candidates Oorah. Nancy now is compared to November, December, January. There’s just No. 2 May. There’s no reason for it all. I think people get sick and tired of this kind of endless running for president that goes on in this country. Yeah, well, I agree with that, but I don’t know, it seems like all the other candidates are already in it Andar, ronin and things like that. So? Well, as you know, timing is extremely important in this game. And so yeah, I’m contemplating the possibility. Like I said, I’ve been to several state conventions, give him talks, interacted with a lot of people and and, uh, yeah, e. I found it a very rewarding and gratifying process since I started doing that last spring. All right, good deal. Now, First of all, let’s talk about trade because I want to talk about immigration. But I also want talk about trade, and I think trade is more immediately in the news here. And I’m a couple days behind on the news, but you may have seen where Trump was tweeting. I hereby order American corporations to come home from China to bring their manufacturing home from China. And then later his staff clarified that Oh, yeah. No, I mean, he can’t order people knew that he was just saying that he’s ordering them toe look into it or something. But anyway. Um, he said we don’t need China, especially their Moorhouse arm than good, with all the intellectual property, a steel and the rest, and that we’re better off without them. And they’re putting on Cem new higher tariffs up to 30% with at the same time, he’s saying the feathers are better. Lower interest Ayt rates in order to stimulate the economy. At the same time, he’s putting on the Smoot Hawley tariff and trying to grind as much of it is a candle. Waal halt. And I don’t know, I just figured I’d let you start talking about that. How’s that for the form of a question? You got anything to say? Question. Because you hit the nail on the head. I mean, this guy’s trade war, really, I think, says so much about Donald Trump. As I put in my block posted today on Monday. Uh, he he is a democratically elected dictator. Ons people sometimes think Oo well in a democracy. You can’t have a dictator cause he’s democratically elected, but that’s not true. You can elect the person and then vest them, or they vest themselves with dictatorial powers, and that’s what he’s done and you’re absolutely right. When he said that he was ordering everybody American businesses to get out of China to stop doing business with China, it was out of anger because the Chinese air not bowing to his dictates. And so they’re retaliating with tariffs of their own. And so he got angry in this peak, he said, Man, I want I’m ordering you guys get out here like he’s the commander in chief of the American private sector. Well, he’s not, and he’s just the duly elected president. But he thinks he’s a dictator. And while his staff made it may have tried Thio walk. Bet that statement back. He didn’t. He actually cited the law in 1977 that Congress enacted that delegate Id unconstitutionally Illit and illegally his power to do this type of thing. As long as he cites the two magic words National Security and Trump even said that he says, Look at this law. I do have the authority to do this well, this is classic dictatorial conduct, and it’s not the only thing time he’s done it noticed that he just raises these tariffs. He started this entire trade war. Scott on his own. Now we live in a system of governmental system where Congress Omnex laws. That’s the way it was intended to Bayh, including tax laws and a tear of his attacks on the American people. It’s a sales tax on imported goods. And he didn’t go to Congress and say, Hey, would you pass this law imposing tariffs on the American people? He just unilaterally does it himself. He does the same thing with sanctions, and the bar goes like Iran and North Korea. This this man is showing how far this country is gone in the direction of dictatorial conduct. Yeah, but he’s gonna save our economy. Yeah, I mean that that’s essentially you say that because that concept that the president’s job is to manage the economy is so ingrained in both Democrats and Republicans noticed the Democratic response to this, especially among the presidential candidates. You don’t see them really going after him on this trade war. I mean, they may throw a little barb here in a little bar Beirt, but they’re not going at it in a liberty level of fundamental level that says Americans have a right to travel wherever they want to trade with whomever they want. That’s the essence of a free society which necessarily means unilateral free trade. Liberate the American people to travel and trade wherever they want. Well, Trump is over here saying, Well, I have the job. Is president to be the elected representative of American businesses? Well, who elected him to be an agent of business is doing business overseas? Nobody elected him to do that. But that’s the That’s the mindset of both E and Republicans and Democrats. So the Democrats are sitting back saying, Oh, wow, the economy started to falter here, and they’re taking the position now that they would be better managers of the economy that Trump. And Trump’s getting desperate because he sees it. A recession is on the horizon here. Well, the hero question is, why should a president be managing an economy? Why can’t people Nas Leat? Why can’t the president just leave people free to manage their own economic affairs? That’s where the libertarian philosophy comes in. Hang on just one second. Hey, guys, I got to tell you about Wall Street window dot com. It’s the great Mike’s Wansa Gn ah, he made a killing on wall Street back in the day, and now he sells advice for reasonable prices. Do you need to know what to do to protect your assets? Wall Street Window, Dakar Hey, guys, I know you’re going to love Will Greg’s new book We Just published at the Libertarian Institute. No quarter. The Ravings of William Norman. Greg. It’s wonderful. It’s terrible. It’s devastating. Yul Laugh. You’ll get angry. Yul Ms Him. You’ll be inspired to Fight for Freedom with Perfect Cover Art by Scott Alberts and a brilliant introduction by Will’s great friend and protege, Thomas are bedlam. It is a fitting legacy for a brilliant man and nearly tireless defender of liberty. Get no quarter the ravings of William Norman Grigg in paperback or Kindle on amazon dot com. All right, now. So here’s the deal, though part of the reason that the American people hate the Bush Clinton post Cold War consensus is because of NAFTA and GATT and W. T. O. And the most favored trade relationship with China and the giant sucking sound to places where labor is cheaper and Americans losing good paying blue collar jobs. You know, because we went from a protectionist, a pretty protectionist system to not much protectionism almost overnight. It was really a shock to a lot of people, and they never had a choice before. This time they actually had a choice and they elected a guy who was against that. In fact, I think if the Democrats have nominated Bernie Sanders, who agrees with Trump about trade with China in many ways anyway representing the labor union, also the supply side here, not the consumers Ah, I think he would’ve beat Trump because he would. He had that one big issue in common with Trump, but without a lot of the other baggage, and the rest of his baggage was. I promised to give you rich people’s money, and that probably would have gotten him elected. Uh, you know, unlike Hillary. But anyway, um, so there’s a huge backlash here. I mean, that’s how he got the job. There’s a huge backlash against this free trade because guess what. You know Chinese peasants will work for cheaper. They always will. But Americans want that job. So what about that? Okay, we got to go back to fundamentals on this thing is in Fundamentalist. What does it mean to be free. What is the nature of a free society in a free society is one in which people, at a minimum, have the right to engage in economic enterprise to sustain their lives. Occupations, vocations Id Hrant into deals with other people. Trade cause You could raise your standard Livni with trade and then accumulate the fruits of your earnings and then decide what to do with him Now is a libertarian. I am totally opposed to NAFTA and GATT and all these these these agreements. I mean, there were like 10 inches thick, and they call them Free Trade Agreement. Well, I guarantee, if you’ve got an agreement that’s 10 inches thick with a bunch of rules and regulations that is not the libertarian ideal of free trade. When we talk about free trade, we’re talking about, don’t negotiate anything with anybody. You don’t need to sit down with a present of another country and say, Let’s work this out. You don’t need to engage in these trade wars. All you have to do is just liberate the American people. That’s all you have to do. Release all your own restrictions on the freedom of the American people to travel and trade wherever they go. Does that mean that other countries will follow suit? Well, some of them will, because they followed by example, they’ll see the higher level of prosperity that free trade, Bri. But even if they don’t, if their governments continue doing the types of things that the U. S government does today subsidies to favorite businesses protectionism, tariffs. So be it. That’s that’s something for American businessman in American tourists in American consumers. They have to Fareed out for themselves how to deal with foreign countries where there’s bad things happening. But it’s no business of the U. S. Government. So get rid of all these so called free trade agreements to get rid of these meetings, high level meetings to negotiate these things, get rid of the trade wars, unilaterally lift Awal trade restrictions on the American people, liberate them to travel and trade with whomever they want and wherever they want to go. All right, well, uh, I wonder, though, if this is gonna, uh, helped crash the economy that Trump is trying so hard to, you know, keep inflated when he Raan. I’m not saying he’s in a kind of Austrian, but he is a real estate guy. So when he was running for president, he said, This is a giant bubble. This Obama economy is fake and all of this, which was true. And now he owns it. Big Time Ind claims credit for every you know, good sounding statistic that comes in, and yet he’s been very critical and has done brought more than any president. A longtime Thio, you know, publicly politicized the Federal Reserve and we’re here, he said. If you saw this on Twitter, he said, my only question is who is our bigger enemy, Jay Powell or Chairman Z? Um And his problem is they won’t inflate. They had another meeting and they did all capitals. Nothing. Exclamation point, meaning he wanted them to cut rates further to stimulate Maurin Flay Shin. He’s got an election to win here, and he’s terrified that the whole thing is gonna fall apart before November 2020. But at the same time, he’s the guy who’s waging this trade war and tryingto I don’t know to what degree, but to some pretty significant degree shutdown trade with our biggest or second biggest compared to Canada, I’m not sure. Trading partner there, so, uh, I don’t know. You got any predictions? Oh, it’s fascinating that that, you know, remember, for the 1st 2 years, all we’ve heard from Trump and his supporters is that he’s responsible for this great economy. The stock market soaring, unemployment rate down, that isn’t he a great manager of the economy. Then he starts his trade war with China. And I’m sure he thought of it that it was gonna be over in about two weeks, that the Chinese were just gonna buckle. And, uh, which was sort of what the Mexicans did when they re negotiated NAFTA, which turned out to be not much different from NAFTA itself. The new agreement. I think he thought the Chinese were going to do the same thing and he was gonna look like this hero. And now it’s clear that the Chinese did not buckle and and you’re right. It’s now throwing the whole world in the direction of a recession and his panicking. And so what is he doing? He’s not saying Well, this is because I’ve been a poor manager of the economy. He say this is the Federal Reserve’s fault because they will lower interest rates and what he wants them to do is what presidents have wanted them to do since the Fed was established in 1913. And that is inflate these bubbles to create artificial prosperity. And that’s what the Fed’s been doing for the last 10 years since the big crash in 2000. Ayt They’ve been inflating this bubble, and that’s what brings these boobs on the bus. It has nothing to do with free enterprise and everything to do with Federal Reserve policy. And yeah, Trump’s politicizing it. Now you know it. We’re told that the Fed is independent, but we know that’s not Non. Since you know, everybody in Washington State comes to political pressure. And so the Fed now is it started. Atto Thio really inflate this bubble Evo Ge Ardmore. So we’ve got this situation. As you point out, he’s got his variation of the Smoot Hawley tariff, which was enacted in the midst of the Great Depression, which made the Depression even worse. So I got this trade war at the same time that it looks like a recession might be on the horizon based on what they call the inverted yield curve in bomb sales. Uh, and then he’s over there asking the Fed keep inflating, keep inflating Ons owned, by the way, let me keep spending money. I mean, he just made a deal with the Democrats to lift the debt ceiling again, enabling the government to spend a trillion dollars more every year. We’ve already exceeded $22 trillion in public debt. And get this Trump and the Democrats make a deal to extend the debt ceiling conveniently till after the election so that even one of them could use it against the other. This shows you the joint corruption, Scott of both of these parties. They’re both complicity in the destruction of liberty in this country and economic prosperity. Genuine prosperity, not the Fed induced bubble type of prosperity to which we’ve become accustomed. Yeah, you know what? I wonder how things were gonna be after the next crash. Um, you know, it seems like people keep saying that. Ah, you know, the next one will be the worst one of Awal or something like that. But I’ve heard that before, but it does seem to be that they get worse and worse if you go, and if you look at, say, 88 92 99 away. They do seem to be Maura. Maura Disruptive. Ah, And then you look at the amount of money that they’ve created the amount of intervention that they did after Oo Ayt here to see what the rial correction and unraveling of all of that looks like, is it? I don’t know, beyond my immediate imagination, but I’m betting it’s gonna be pretty ugly. Yeah, that’s an interesting point. I mean, they are bigger, bigger, And because what they do is they encourage Maale Investment. They artificially lower interest rates. Oo business is going to say, Hey, wow! Business is booming. Lindh interest rates are low. I’m gonna go out, expand my business. But then is the reality starts to set in after the businesses occurred, a bunch of debt and he realizes Ge Osh there really isn’t enough consumer demand to sustain this. That’s when the recession hit. That’s when the shakeout starts. And they never want that shake out to start because that’s bad for political business. So they start inflating again. And so you get this Malinois vestment piled on Maor investment and what I said many, many years ago, is that, you know, we’ve seen various sectors that bear the brunt of this in a big way. Like last time. It was the housing market that everybody’s the value. Everybody’s houses just crater nationwide. Um, and and sometimes it hits the stock market. But the prospect that I’ve raised many years ago is what happens if one of these days the sector that gets hit is the banking sector. Uh, now you know, the FBI see has enough money to take care of three or four, maybe 10 or 20 bank failures. But what if there’s an industrywide banking collapse? Where is the FT. C going to get the money to cover everybody’s insurance and notice that they keep raising the insurance that started out is, I don’t know, 10,000 and 150,000. And it’s 250,000 now, maybe more. And it’s all with this notion of Oh, don’t worry, we could cover you. Everything’s fine. Well, they can if there’s a few banks to go under. But if there’s a nationwide Magden collapse, what were they going to do? Tax everybody in order to give everybody their money back so I think that’s a possibility. And if a bad one comes and you know I’m not here, you know, saying predictor doom. But I know that the Great Depression hit and if a bad one were to come, what People have to anticipate Id that this government’s going to be very, very vicious. Awal governments are to get their money, and, uh, and the government’s gonna want money even in the Depression. And so if the thirties President Roosevelt actually nationalized gold, this has been the official money of the American people under the Constitution for over 100 years, and he just said, I don’t need to go through a constitutional amendment. This is an emergency. I’m taking everybody’s gold from him and he made it a felony offense. Everybody had to go to the banks and turning their gold well over in Argentina when this happened, the president Argentina seized everybody’s Foer a Wone k and retirement accounts and replace them with government bonds. And I think that is a likely possibility if if there really is a big recession in this country, the seizure of people’s retirement accounts and replaced with bonds because that’s exactly what the Roosevelt administration did with gold. Crazy man. Um, I guess Ah. Hummel and Henderson. They say that if it comes to, you know, total, you know, massive inflation, destruction of the currency Ah, in order to prop things up that instead they’ll just repudiate the debt before they completely inflate the dollar out of existence will prop it up by just screwing every bondholder, which I think is probably the best solution of people invest in government. They deserve what they get. Although if you’re saying the government just took their gold and replaced it with a bond And although that was back then But I hear, yeah, I can’t imagine them just outright repudiation. My feeling is that they would inflate because the inflation is repudiation. Enas paying people back into base dollars. But the average Joe blow American doesn’t realize that the government’s doing it and Sony Cees prices rise and he starts blaming Awene profiteers and price Ge Alll Jer Aigars. He has no idea that this is This is what happens when the government debases the currency. And let’s face it, they’ve already destroyed the currency. You know, there used to be still silver knives, a silver quarter circulating in this country. But they inflated the bad currency to such an extent that those went out of circulation a long time ago. So they’ve been playing this game for for decades. They both parties have. It’s not just Trump, you know. People keep going after Trump, but it’s really not a trump issue. It’s a systemic issue. It’s It’s something that both Democrats and Republicans have done by creating a central bank, the Federal Reserve member America live without a central bank. For over 100 years. They went to a paper money standard, which was contrary to what our country and they went to the income tax. They went to all these status programs the welfare state, the national security state. And now they’re spending out the Ge Zoo and the release of the Internation into bankruptcy. And along with these dictatorial powers that they vested the president. That really changed the character of American life. They changed the governmental system, and that changed the society itself. Yeah, now so let’s talk about this immigration piece that you wrote earlier. This is something that divides libertarians a lot. Um, but you have this Wone particular great paragraph I wanted to highlight here. Where you talk about, Um you know, there’s a reason that libertarian advocates of immigration controls never mentioned the problem of enforcement. And then you go on to side a lot of not just the current crisis with, you know, the massive number of people being held in these temporary prisons and all of this stuff. But all of the rest of enforcement that comes with living inside the Constitution Free zone of the 100 mile, which Eni Moneim Cannes Joost, Type that in and look at the A C L U map there. The the it includes both coasts are all three coasts, 200 mile buffer zone in from Mexico and Canada. It happens to encompass about somewhere between 2/3 and 3/4 of the population of the United States of America. Live inside this Constitution free zone were in the name of immigration enforcement. The National Police force can run roughshod over the constitutional rights of all of us. Anyway, you elaborate here in this article real well, and it it really brings home the idea. And why should libertarians especially be the ones to fall for this? That Somehow your opinion about what the law should be is a magic wish. That’s just gonna make everything fine rather than just giving a bunch of cops and excuse to hurt people. Yeah, it’s a police state that they’ve enacted in Immigration Police State. And this is what libertarians who support the idea of immigration controls never address. And I underline the word never that they come up with these esoteric arguments as to why libertarians should join up with the Democrats and the Republicans and support immigration controls. But the central cool principle of Libertarianism Assn. You know, is the non aggression principle. It says that people should be free to live their lives any way they want, as long as they’re not initiating force of fraud against another person. So the beer act of crossing a border on a government road or a government bridge doesn’t violate anyone’s rights. People cross the Potomac River, which is the border between Maryland, Virginia, Every day when they cross that border, they’re not violate anyone’s rights, and the same applies to international border. When somebody crosses in an international bridge here, not violating anyone’s right, and so in order to keep out these immigrant. They’re violating that libertarian, Non aggression principle they’re initiating. Forced to keep somebody from engaging in purely peaceful behavior Is the Declaration of Independence says pursuing happiness. And but people, if they just If the Kice issue the law that says Anu entry allowed without permission, nobody would obey it. And, uh, because that’s just not the way life works. People cross borders to go seek a better life, make money, improve themselves, pursue happiness. So they have to enact these enforcement measures that increasingly fail. And so they have to finally get to a point where they they’ve enacted a police state. And that’s what they’ve done. Scott in the American Southwest. As you know, I grew up down there. A group in Laredo. I saw this police state firsthand. They way I grew up on a farm of the Rio Grande. The Border Patrol could come on to my farm without a warrant. If we put a lock on our Ge Ayt, they would shoot off the lock, they would come in. They never came into our house to search the house, but they would they would go down. They would. They’re Ge per vehicle Awal way, the river and its search for illegal immigrants without permission. And this is in this applies to the whole 100 miles. As you point out, that’s 2/3 of the American population where they have the authority to do this, that most of the time they’re doing it near the border on the border. But you have Rove E border Patrol checkpoints. You have highway checkpoints, Scott that run on highways, East west, stopping people that have never entered Mexico. And these these air these air subject to full searches. I mean, if they want to, they could search your body cavities that these things. If they want to search your vehicle, they find any contraband. They Cees in charge. This is the type of thing that exists in totalitarian countries, and in Florida they’re boarding Greyhound buses and asking for people’s papers. And if somebody’s dark skin and doesn’t speak English, well, I like in my hometown 20% of the population doesn’t speaker ride English. At least that’s the way it was when I was there. Cem 40 years ago. Well, those people have to carry their papers were whenever they’re leaving Laredo to show that they’re American citizens. That’s not a free country, if that’s a police state, and that’s what this socialist system doesn’t Id. Immigration controls is a socialist system is based on the principle of central planning, where government officials air centrally planting the movements of millions of people in a very complex labor market. So that’s why you have this chaos in this crisis. Yet thousands of people packed up but the board or trying to get in. Meanwhile, you got farms in the United States where the farmers are letting their crops right in the fields because they can’t get people to pick the crops. That’s what socialism does. It produces what Lindh Arinc Monde Mises called plan to chaos. There’s only one solution to it. And thats open borders. Nothing else is gonna work. And, you know, people get shot to say, Well, Jake, that’s a radical idea. Well, it may be a radical idea, but it’s the only idea that works. There’s nothing else. He works except the free market. Okay, except here’s the thing of it. There’s so many. We’re not talking about individuals and, you know, husbands take in their wives and children and getting on the boat or hiking and whatever kind of sort of a few at a time. We’re talking about mass immigration, Um, and so you know, in a sense, it’s not really violence, but it’s kind of coercion. It’s kind of force if all of a sudden, in your neighborhood there are your part of town or where there are tens of thousands of new people who are coming in, whatever I don’t know, people react against it. I don’t give a crap, but anyway, you know that it’s a problem from the point of view of a hell of a lot of people who are reacting against it, and they’re hiring the government to protect them from it. So, I mean, is there a point where, even if it is Awal Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama’s fault, where enough of the population of Honduras just wants to Awal move to Texas, where maybe they can’t half of Honduras? Cannes come here. But not the whole country or I don’t know. Well, you’re right, point out. The foreign interventionism is a primary cause of of immigration to the United States. The United States is the U. S. Government has initiated coups and revolutions and and other acts of violence in Latin America that has just turned these these these regimes into cauldrons of of anger, rage, hatred, violence, shootings. And then there’s the drug war that does the same thing. Souto those two things that have caused a lot of the people Atto Wone leaves. So if you stop those two things, if you stop the foreign interventionism in the drug war that things would start to return to normal so that the immigration clothes would be more normal instead of like a mass exodus of people. But even even that even if we if we have those kind of programs and there’s a lot of people Kabbi, the idea that everybody’s gonna company the United States is really fallacious. The reason is because it is extremely difficult for a person, emotionally and financially to just pick up steaks from a country that he’s living in, that he’s accustomed to that language. If friends, his family, it really is a rare kind of person that says, I’m gonna leave it all, and I’ve been coming United States, and those are the people that really turn out to bring this vitality and this energy and me. They’re sort of like a God’s gift to a society, but you have to rely on laws of supply and demand to regulate this. This is what people forget, you know, for example, in California, California is a nice place to live. It’s a beautiful state, beautiful scenery, mountains, oceans and so forth. Why doesn’t everybody suddenly move to California? Well, because it’s extremely expensive to live in California, you know that the cost of living’s higher the taxes or hire people are actually moving out to California, moving to Las Vegas right now because they’re selling their houses at a high price. And there get the same house that 1/3 the price of De Las Vegas. This is the laws of supply and demand. Wait, noticed. We don’t have any restrictions on Americans to move wherever they want. Theoretically, every single American today could decide to move to New York City. Yeah, I mean, I think we’d all agree that New York City is a pretty overcrowded place. Well, since that danger exists in, we enact immigration controls prohibiting Americans from moving to New York City. Of course not the loss of supplying them and take care of this. It’s extremely expensive to live in New York City, so most Americans, they’re going to say, Well, now I think I’ll just stay here in Montgomery, Alabama, a Charleston, South Carolina. Or Dallas, Texas, because I like it here, even though New York has a lot of nice things that to go visit. So that’s the same principle internationally works on the country’s. As people start coming in, prices start rising, the price of housing, the price of everything, and then that discourages others from coming. You’re right, though culturally, people don’t like change. However, many people don’t like change. I mean, I like change, but you know, you, they see an influx of of Hispanics into a community, and they say, Oh my gosh, this is changing the nature about community. There’s signs in Spanish and so forth. Well, that’s what comes with with a genuinely free society. It’s that diversity that changed that I should point out that there’s a lot of communities in the South now that we’ve been revitalized by these Hispanic immigrants. In fact, even to the point where when the when the immigration service the ice went out, start making these violent raids on American businesses. I think it was a Tennessee that a lot of people rallied. Caucasian people Oh, rallied around the Hispanic immigrants. They were working to those businesses trying to prevent Eissa. I’m taking Liv away. So in a free society, is there change? Does it bother people? Yes and yes, but the idea that we should sacrifice our freedom for the sake of some kind of security net Ind pretense anyway, that all you end up with is tyranny. And so you give up both your your security and your freedom and you end up another leader. You can hear the Scott Kortan Shoah Gn Antiwar radio Awene Pacifica 90.7, F m kpfk in l. A kpfk dot or Ge a PS radio at a. P s radio dot com the Libertarian Institute at Libertarian Institute dot or Ge And, of course, check out the full archives. More than 5000 interviews now going back to 2003 and sign up for the podcast feed at Scott horton dot or Ge and thanks. All right, let’s talk about this one. Why no congressional investigation into Jeffrey Epstein’s intelligence connections? What an obvious and yet unique. Question. Jacobin Wurmer Ge Yeah, it’s a fascinating case up, and I know you know, there’s been a bunch of conspiracy ideas. There isn’t so forth that have been going on around is a debt. But the wood that I focus on is the statement by a cost of the assistant U. S. Attorney who cut the deal. It was a sweetheart deal. I mean, this guy was charged with federal trafficking of underage girls and hey, hands up with the sweetheart deal that where the feds agreed not to prosecute Id, which which was shocking. And he please guilty to a state charge of soliciting a prostitute, which was really an insult against the underage women that he was that he was bringing into his fold on. They put him in a local jail where they let him out every day to go conduct business. Then he comes back and spends the night. This went on for about a year. Well, when when everything hit the fan about this agreement, just recently they were asking a Costa about why did this agreement come into existence? And and he made this very cryptic remark. Supposedly he said something about Well, there was an intelligence factor involved here, something words to that effect, referring to tell it some intelligence agency or intelligence force or whatever. So we don’t really know exactly what he meant. But it was such an intriguing remark that my question is, why isn’t Congress investigating this? Because the implication is that some intelligence force brought pressure to bear on a Costa to drop the federal charges and let the guy have this sweetheart deal at the state level. Well, if that’s the case, if some intelligence agents agency, whether it’s the CIA and the Asaad or some other intelligence agency, Navy intelligence or whatever, is corrupting our federal judiciary, that that’s isn’t that something Congress should be looking into. When you have a judiciary, you have to rely on the fact that it’s honest that it has integrity to it. But if some intelligence forces able to influence them in some corrupt way, that’s something the American people are entitled to find out so that I wrote that article saying, Why isn’t Congress investigating this? Uh, this is totally separate, independent of how he died in what he was doing with these girls and the lawsuits that the girls a break the women are now breaking. This is just something that I think affects the American people directly. Is there a corrupt judiciary here? And did it become corrupt because of some intelligence force has manifested in this particular case? Because if they but in this case got they could do it. In any case, yeah, I think it’s incumbent on Congress to get to the bottom of well. And in this case alone, the implications are vast. Because if he was working for intelligence agencies, what was his work? Obviously blackmailing powerful people into committing the same kind of crimes he was into. Huu right? Nobody thinks he had another job than that if he was working for spies. And so that’s why you know, it’s amazing to see right Bill Richardson and George Mitchell and the Prince, all these people named, and it’s not proven that they did anything. But I’m prepared to believe the worst about Bill Richardson, for example. But this guy had a lot of powerful friends for a long time, and, you know, there are quotes from people saying that Yea, of course he had his whole island wired for sound and video and all of these things, which only makes sense, right? Had Bill Clinton lied about how many times he was on his plane. Was on his plane four times. That’s funny. You’re in the records 27 times, including trips to Thailand. Oh, yeah. No, I’m sure that was just business. These guys. So yeah, and you know, as far as conspiracy theories, I think the one where he killed himself is a conspiracy theory. But anyway, um, not that I, you know, in fact, just speculation wise, but do you have a favorite between, Ah, he’s still alive somewhere versus you know, he was throttled to death by somebody. Sit, man. Well, well, let me first address your first words. I think that’s really an important point. I mean that the speculation was rife on the Internet that we’re not in the mainstream press, interestingly enough, was that this guy was running a blackmail operation and that they were quoting traders on Wall Street, saying we never traded with Kai, and he was in a is running this hedge fund. And so the speculation of the Internet was that what he was doing was luring these people to his parties and then having them go up to the bedroom with these underage girls, which I’m sure he probably led people to believe We’re 18 and videotaped him and then contacted the person the next day and said, Hey, I’ve got this hedge fund. How about invest De $5 million in it? Because they will get pictures of you here. And so the person would invest in the hedge fund and of course, he’d never see his money back again. So that was a fascinating theory. And, you know, that’s something that I think still should be explored in these civil lawsuits. That being brought because if that’s the case, got the point you make is very important. Why would an intelligence agency, regardless of who it is Wone associate with this guy? I mean, here is trafficking and underage girls. Why would they want him? What? To spy on what, you know, spy on the Caribbean or what? Well, we know what J. Edgar Hoover’s motus waas mean. This this is no conspiracy theory here. Whoever would keep files on people Habul discovered dirt on people for the specific purpose of blackmailing people and it remember, this is a guy that still held in high esteem in the FBI. They named their building after him. He’s nothing but a common blackmailer. And so if the head of the FBI couldn’t do it well, an intelligence agency could do it also. And so that that’s that’s important speculation that I think needs to be explored. And that’s something else that I think Congress should get into because you got intelligence agency that’s doing what J. Edgar Hoover did. That’s not a good thing with respect to a free society now, on the conspiracy theories on how he died so far that I don’t know, you know, they got an autopsy that says he got Hunt. But But let’s face it, I mean to me, it’s possible to thio hang a guy and, you know, hold tube. Two burly guys hold him up, put a noose around his neck and dropping from a bunk bed so forth. Um, did that happen? I don’t know. But I’ll tell you one thing. It was I think it’s it. It was in a lot of people’s interests that he exit this world either through suicide or through uh, through murder. And, uh, my my hunch is that maybe when they saw that he had a proclivity to Cannes commit suicide, they just sort of looked the other way and said, Well, let it go. Uh, but, you know, I don’t think anybody’s going to get very far by insinuating murder, because once the autopsy came out, unless somebody where Thio Goa state’s evidence or go public and say, yeah, we kill the guy, which is not gonna happen I think we have to just settle for the fact that it was a suicide. Yeah, it’s a separate question in a separate kind of entertainment to me, the way the media just immediately went on this jihad to essentially say, you are forbidden from believing that maybe this guy was murdered, it couldn’t be. And if you think so, you’re one of those crazy people who we all despise and would never invite our barbecue. Really? What a conspiracy theory that this guy who was clearly involved in the sexual blackmail of numerous powerful men, mysteriously died in his cell mysteriously. But whatever Awene Lee a kook would think that it wasn’t a suicide. Why? Simply because TV insists that’s it, even though essentially its just as plausible that he was murdered. And it’s almost a CZ plausible that he’s still alive and that they murdered some schmuck and you know why not? This guy’s pretty connected. Seems like, Ah, it’s just a speculation. You have to believe in that. But to think that Oh yeah, I know there’s a 99.999% chance that it was suicide, and anybody else who thinks anything else is a horrible, terrible, crazy person, the kind of person who might have told you that the media was covering for this guy all along. Like, for example, when the National Review in the Huffington Post Raan giant puff pieces by his paid PR people to rehabilitate his reputation after his conviction and so called time served down there in Florida. That sounds like a crazy conspiracy theory to that. This guy wasn’t completely hung out to dry 20 years ago by all of our hard hitting investigative news reporters, the same ones who were telling us that were horrible, stupid, crazy people. Now for even entertaining the possibility that whether Clinton or Trump or somebody we’ve never heard off would have had this guy whacked in his cell. My reaction of the mainstream press is exactly like yours. I mean, I was amazed. Mea Gn investigative reporters were supposed to be skeptical of official accounts. And when you use when he supposedly committed suicide, ride with the announcement was made. You’re right. The assessment of the Bayh Strugar press was Oh, this was clearly a suicide over. The conspiracy theorists are already coming out. Well, nobody really knew at that point. I mean, it would be justifiable to be skeptical, especially for the media to be skeptical. That’s their job to say. You know, did anybody have a motive to get rid of this guy? That that, uh, is there? Is it possible that Cem Cem people are paying big money? Did it snuff this guy out before he gets to trial and start spilling the beans? But you’re right. It was all this Oo conspiracy theorists are coming forward. Conspiracy theorists are coming forward rather than expressed the skepticism that should be expressed. And you could see it in the same thing with respected. That this point that I was making about the intelligence agencies. I don’t see the mainstream press making a big deal out of that. And that’s not a conspiracy theory, because Acosta himself says something about intelligence. That’s something that all they gotta do, a subpoena, Hammoud say. What did you mean by this? And who told you that? That that intelligence had an interest in how this thing is resolved? And then he says, Well, somebody told me this. Alright, subpoena him until you get to the bottom of this. But I don’t see the mainstream press talking about this at all, right? At least not that angle right or you know it’s there, right? You can read it in the Daily Beast. But it’s not the major part of the narrative, even though, of course, that’s the juiciest tidbit out of all of it. Never mind any of the sexes to somebody say he belongs to intelligence. Well, let’s parse that dive in somebody with a badge, right? Subpoena Holo. Bring together grand jury. And I love the way you described just now. You kind of alluded to it. But in the article, you have this great kind of daydream about what if America had a rule of law at all, and would have Congress actually would do such a thing as subpoena cost and nail him down on this point and make him Gnehm, the guy who said that to him and then bring that guy in and say, All right, buddy, now who told you to say that? And on down the chain? Until you get to the bottom of this corruption and make sure that the law’s still reigns supreme in America, this kind of dig, Think of how far off of reality that is. And can you imagine Congress doing anything of the sort ever? Well, no, because a zay put the end at the end of my article. Ayt, an agency that has enough power and influence to corrupt the federal judiciary, is more has more than sufficient power to corrupt Congress. I mean, let’s face remember when Schumer made that congressman Schumer made that remark that when Trump took on the the intelligence agencies, Hayb better watch out because they know howto retaliate Tin times to Sunday or something, Six ways from Sunday of getting back at you. Well, Congress knows that Schumer knows the Shoah. Birns chippers is essentially expressing the sentiments of every member of Congress. They’re scared to death to take on the CIA on Ds Cem of Aamer Ind Gerecht assets in the sea a sort of self appointed assets and supporters of the CIA. So that’s why you don’t see anybody in Congress doing what I think they need to be doing. And that is subpoena Khowst and get to the bottom of this this intelligence factor relation ship that that Epstein apparently had. The CIA, I think controls that type of thing that they wouldn’t permit it to happen. They would not permit Congress to have this type of investigation. That’s how much power I think they have in this country. Yeah, well, hey, Chuck Schumer is the leader of the Democrats in the Senate That’s about as powerful and influential as you could get an effect in that clip, I’d have to go back, but I’m not so sure that he’s delivering a threat on their behalf. It seems more like just honest advice from the majority leader in the Senate to the incoming president that Hey, man, these guys are gangsters. Hell, you should really watch your step. Oh, I totally agree with you. I think he was just making an honest assessment of the situation that a trump Don’t be stupid. That Eni president takes on the national security establishment. They’re gonna come after you, and you’re gonna pay a big price for it. Then he wasn’t addressing some congressman elect. He was addressing the president elect that. Hey, we all know who’s the real boss around here, and it ain’t you, right? Right. And what I like about that, too, is that he said that Awene Rachel Maddows show. And she’s like, Yeah, this is not a topic to explore that. Wow. I mean, what are you really saying here, Senator? You know that Langley is more powerful than Capitol Hill? Well, then, the White House on Pennsylvania Avenue. Really? I don’t have any doubts that that is the most powerful branch of the government. We don’t think in terms of the national security established would be in a separate branch, but it really is. And there’s a great book called Double Government by Ghandi. Michael Glennon. It’s Professor Bolat, Tufts University. That that’s his thesis in this book that the national security branch of the government is the most powerful branch and it makes sense because government is force. So the other three branches may have a U. S. Marshal Oorah Diyah or Cem Hmmmmm agricultural official carrying a gun. But that’s not real force. Riel forces troops, bullets, planes, ships. And that’s the national security establishment. And Ge. Lenin’s thesis is that they’re the ones really running the show, and they permit the other three branches to have a Idir of being in charge. But because they don’t care about that, that the appearance, all they care about is are they called the Shots under the table. And, uh, Gwynne Nas book is really worth reading. It’s the best analysis I’ve seen of the Deep State ever, and it’s done in a very scholarly, credible way. Yeah, you know, it’s funny because people say the deep state this or this kind of state that. But if you go back to Albert Jane Aq and his book is a short book or s a R enemy the state, he defines the state as different from the government. The government is sort of, you know, the buildings, the institutions, the laws in the offices, kind of. But the state is the interlocking web of community among the human people who occupy those buildings and offices and wield those powers. And that’s not just exactly the the bureaucrats themselves. But that’s of course, completely intertwined with all of their special interests. Uh, Jos, broadly defined as you can make it, that is. The deep state, of course, is the CIA and all their contractors and all their contractors and the C I. A. Both ways. Yeah, I mean, that’s the point is, you know, that I’ve been making for many, many years that that I favor a limited government republic. That is what our country was founded on. And then it got converted to a national security state after World War Two. And a lot of Americans think, Oh, it’s just the same governmental system we’ve always had. It really isn’t. It’s a totally opposite type of governmental system. The national security state is a totalitarian type of government structure. It is the opposite of a limited government republic. And so we’ve ended up with the government with the power to assassinate people, including Americans, torture people, including Americans, indefinite detention, secret prison camps, coups, uh, alliance with the dictatorial regimes. This was no part of the governmental system in which America was founded. So what I say is is just dismantle this thing in restoring limited government republic to our land. It’s a necessary prerequisite to being free. Now, does that scare people? Oh, yeah, because they’ve all grown up with the CIA and the N S A. And the Pentagon. They think, Oh, you know, everybody’s coming to get us and by I want to be kept safe. It’s a classic case of trading liberty for the pretense of security, because what is happening is you end up not only with a tyrannical government with these omnipotent powers like assassination and torture and so forth. But you’ve given up both your freedom and your security Etit. But neither. Yeah, well, that’s where we are right now. Exactly what you guys, that’s Jacob Hornberger. He may or may not be running for the candidacy of the Libertarian Party for President United States next year, and I guess we’ll find out at some point. Um, he’s also the founder of the president of the Future Freedom Foundation. He’s written 10,000 articles up there, maybe 20,000 since, like, 1989 I think, uh, f f f dot or Ge slash blawg. Thanks very much, sir. Oh Scott, it’s always an honor and a pleasure, Thank you very much and thank you for your kind words. Really appreciate it. If anybody wants to learn more, come to F F F Dot or Ge. We’ve got a free daily publication that we strive to make the best libertarian commentary page on the Internet, and that’s an f f f dot org’s absolutely. And you can subscribe to toothy the future Freedom. It’s not called. It’s just called the Future Freedom Now, uh, Munther Enel, that cost $25 or $50 for the email version. And then you can also send us a donation. Because that’s what, of course, how we survive way live off the donations that people send us. So thank you, Scott. We’re very, very appreciative. For every time you have me on the show, I’m honored and grateful. All right, good deal. Good. Talk to you again. Okay. Bye. Bye. Aren’t you guys that’s fff dot or Ge. All right, Shell. Thanks. Find me at Libertarian Institute dot or Ge at scott, Kortan dot or Ge antiwar dot com and Reddit dot com slash scott Horton show. Oh yeah, and read my book Fool’s Errand Timed and the War in Afghanistan at Fool’s errand dot us.

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