I need this for a citation later.
38 times in interviews by me, interviews of me, speeches and articles where I debunked the safe haven myth in regards to the war in Afghanistan:
Tom Engelhardt, Scott Horton Show radio archive, October 27, 2008, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/antiwar-radio-tom-engelhardt-2; Eric Margolis, Scott Horton Show radio archive, November 28, 2008, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/antiwar-radio-eric-margolis-9; Malou Innocent, Scott Horton Show radio archive, August 3, 2010, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/antiwar-radio-malou-innocent-2; Anand Gopal, Scott Horton Show radio archive, January 14, 2011, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/antiwar-radio-anand-gopal-5; John Glaser, Scott Horton Show radio archive, July 13, 2012, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/john-glaser; Justin Raimondo, Scott Horton Show radio archive, April 24, 2013, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/42413-justin-raimondo; Kelley Vlahos, Scott Horton Show radio archive, July 15, 2014, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/071514-kelley-vlahos; Matthew Hoh, Scott Horton Show radio archive, April 10, 2017, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/41017-matthew-hoh-on-the-afghanistan-quagmire-and-the-individual-costs-of-war; Daniel Davis, Scott Horton Show radio archive, May 12, 2017, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/51217-retired-lt-col-daniel-l-davis-on-a-new-us-troop-surge-in-afghanistan; Walter Jones, Scott Horton Show radio archive, November 7, 2017, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/11717-congressman-walter-jones-on-his-fight-for-h-con-res-81-and-against-the-war-party; Danny Sjursen, Scott Horton Show radio archive, February 2, 2018, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/2-2-18-major-danny-sjursen-on-the-vietnam-wars-legacy-in-iraq-and-afghanistan; Daniel Davis, Scott Horton Show radio archive, July 30, 2018, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/7-30-18-daniel-davis-says-its-time-to-talk-to-the-taliban; Danny Sjursen, Scott Horton Show radio archive, October 20, 2018, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/10-20-18-danny-sjursen-on-the-war-in-afghanistan; Sheldon Richman, Scott Horton Show radio archive, November 30, 2018, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/11-30-18-sheldon-richman-on-immigration-and-the-drug-war; Daniel Davis, Scott Horton Show radio archive, May 25, 2019, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/5-25-19-daniel-davis-on-the-unwinnable-war-in-afghanistan; Jason Ditz, Scott Horton Show radio archive, July 17, 2019, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/7-17-19-jason-ditz-on-iran-yemen-and-afghanistan; Danny Sjursen, Scott Horton Show radio archive, July 30, 2019, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/7-30-19-danny-sjursen-on-trump-ending-the-war-in-afghanistan; Jason Ditz, Scott Horton Show radio archive, August 12, 2019, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/8-12-19-jason-ditz-with-the-latest-on-afghanistan; Danny Sjursen, Scott Horton Show radio archive, August 30, 2019, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/8-30-19-danny-sjursen-on-the-hidden-cost-of-americas-endless-wars-and-how-trump-could-end-them; Donald Bolduc, Scott Horton Show radio archive, November 22, 2019, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/11-22-19-donald-bolduc-on-limiting-us-military-intervention; Daniel Davis, Matthew Hoh, and Danny Sjursen, Scott Horton Show radio archive, December 10, 2019, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/12-10-19-davis-hoh-and-sjursen-reflect-on-the-war-in-afghanistan; Adam Wunische, Scott Horton Show radio archive, December 13, 2019, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/12-13-19-adam-wunische-on-the-real-lesson-from-the-afghanistan-papers; Sheldon Richman, Scott Horton Show radio archive, February 21, 2020, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/2-21-20-sheldon-richman-on-the-nonintervention-principle; Doug Bandow, Scott Horton Show radio archive, August 28, 2020, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/8-28-20-doug-bandow-on-americas-failures-as-the-worlds-police; Gareth Porter, Scott Horton Show radio archive, September 5, 2020, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/9-5-20-gareth-porter-on-trumps-first-term-foreign-policy-record; Daniel Davis, Scott Horton Show radio archive, October 9, 2020, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/10-9-20-daniel-davis-on-the-failures-of-american-foreign-policy-since-the-gulf-war; Danny Sjursen, Scott Horton Show radio archive, October 23, 2020, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/10-23-20-danny-sjursen-on-nagorno-karabakh-and-americas-failed-afghanistan-strategy; Matthew Hoh, Scott Horton Show radio archive, March 26, 2021, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/3-26-21-matthew-hoh-on-bidens-afghanistan-equivocations; Gareth Porter, Scott Horton Show radio archive, April 23, 2021, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/4-23-21-gareth-porter-on-bidens-promised-withdrawal-from-afghanistan; Heather Brandon-Smith, Scott Horton Show radio archive, May 7, 2021, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/5-7-21-heather-brandon-smith-on-the-effort-to-repeal-the-2002-iraq-aumf; Scott Horton, “War Without a Rationale – The myth of the Afghan safe haven just won’t die,” The American Conservative, December 28, 2017, https://theamericanconservative.com/war-without-a-rationale; Robert Gaines and Scott Horton, “Trump Is Right, It’s Time to End the Afghan War,” Breitbart, January 28, 2019, https://breitbart.com/politics/2019/01/28/gaines-horton-trump-is-right-its-time-to-end-the-afghan-war; Robert Gaines and Scott Horton, “There Is No Humanitarian Reason for the Afghanistan War,” The American Conservative, March 6, 2019, https://theamericanconservative.com/there-is-no-humanitarian-reason-for-the-afghanistan-war; Peter Van Buren, interview with Scott Horton on Fool’s Errand: Time to End the War in Afghanistan, Antiwar Radio/KPFK, August 27, 2017, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/9317-peter-van-buren-interviews-scott-about-fools-errand; “Fool’s Errand,” Speech to the Libertarian Party of Pennsylvania, Book TV, March 3, 2018, C-SPAN, https://c-span.org/program/book-tv/fools-errand/498797; “Scott Horton Explains Why the US War in Afghanistan is Unwinnable,” Speech at Middle East Books and More, March 4, 2018, https://youtube.com/watch?v=jYkM3Vzl6v0; “Scott Horton on Afghanistan – Speech to the New Jersey Libertarian Party, August 20, 2018, https://youtube.com/watch?v=FX6ALDrLYyI; Scott Horton, “The Negative Impact of the Unnecessary War on Terrorism,” lecture to the Committee for Responsible Foreign Policy, October 28, 2018, https://scotthorton.org/interviews/10-28-18-lecture-for-the-committee-for-responsible-foreign-policy.
AI SUMMARY (May include errors):
October 27, 2008 — Tom Engelhardt
9/11 was planned partly in Hamburg and in the United States; the exchange makes the reductio that America did not bomb Hamburg, Hollywood, Florida, or San Diego.
Quote: Scott: “they didn’t bomb Hollywood, Florida or San Diego, either.”
Source: https://scotthorton.org/interviews/antiwar-radio-tom-engelhardt-2/
November 28, 2008 — Eric Margolis
Afghanistan was not a unique terrorist launchpad; Horton reinforces that the small remnant of al-Qaeda had already been decimated or driven out.
Source: https://scotthorton.org/interviews/antiwar-radio-eric-margolis-9/
February 17, 2009 — William Astore
Horton invokes Hamburg and American flight schools against the claim that remote Afghan territory gives terrorists unique access to the United States.
Quote: Astore: “It didn’t just come out of Afghanistan. It came out of Hamburg. It came out of our own flight schools.”
Source: https://scotthorton.org/interviews/antiwar-radio-william-astore-2/
December 3, 2009 — Gareth Porter
Safe-haven rationale challenged in the context of escalation and the actual geography of al-Qaeda operations.
Quote: Scott: “it wasn’t Afghanistan that was the key to anything.”
Source: https://scotthorton.org/interviews/antiwar-radio-gareth-porter-65/
July 30, 2010 — Ivan Eland
Horton argues that the occupation is not necessary to prevent a uniquely Afghan terrorist sanctuary.
Quote: Scott: “the major flaw in the whole Afghan safe haven for Al-Qaeda theory is that it was Germany and America.”
Source: https://scotthorton.org/interviews/antiwar-radio-ivan-eland-6/
August 3, 2010 — Malou Innocent
Direct discussion of the safe-haven claim and the distinction between Afghan insurgents and transnational terrorists.
Quote: Scott: “There’s nothing magical about Pakistan or Afghanistan that makes them … great bases to wage terrorist attacks on the United States.”
Source: https://scotthorton.org/interviews/antiwar-radio-malou-innocent-2/
January 14, 2011 — Anand Gopal
Horton contrasts local Afghan conflict with the Western access and mobility of the actual 9/11 network.
Quote: Scott: “Afghanistan … is no man’s land … exile.”
Source: https://scotthorton.org/interviews/antiwar-radio-anand-gopal-5/
July 13, 2012 — John Glaser
Horton gives the geographical safe-haven reductio directly: Afghanistan is exile on the other side of the planet, whereas the 9/11 conspirators needed ordinary access through Hamburg and the United States.
Quote: Scott: “if you’re in exile in no man’s land on the other side of the planet … that somehow is like being in the parking lot at Boston Logan Airport or something.”
Source: https://scotthorton.org/interviews/john-glaser/
April 24, 2013 — Justin Raimondo
Horton states the doctrine sarcastically: America supposedly must remain forever because otherwise terrorists get a safe haven and attack again; he rejects the premise.
Quote: Scott: “if we leave, the bad guys will come back, and they’ll have a safe haven.”
Source: https://scotthorton.org/interviews/42413-justin-raimondo/
July 15, 2014 — Kelley Vlahos
Horton calls it the ‘safe haven myth’ and mocks the idea that an Egyptian in Afghanistan thereby has direct access to New York; the real attackers’ access came through Germany and the West.
Quote: Scott: “Afghanistan is actually exile on Earth. It’s the furthest place to get to from anywhere.”
Source: https://scotthorton.org/interviews/071514-kelley-vlahos/
April 10, 2017 — Matthew Hoh
Horton explicitly frames the ‘safe haven myth’ as one of the final rationales for the war.
Quote: Scott: “it’s the safe haven myth … we can’t leave because if we leave Al Qaeda will come back.”
May 12, 2017 — Daniel Davis
Top-tier geographical rebuttal: 9/11 did not require Afghanistan; the plot was launched from the U.S. and prepared in Germany and Florida; Horton asks whether that logic would require occupying Germany, Florida and Maine.
Quote: Scott: “they did it not from Afghanistan, but from Boston and from New Jersey.”
August 27, 2017 — Peter Van Buren interviews Scott Horton on Fool’s Errand
In this interview of Horton, he distinguishes the enemy actually being fought in Afghanistan from transnational terrorists. Discussing the post-COIN “counterterrorism” strategy, he says the targets were overwhelmingly local Pashtun insurgents resisting foreign troops.
Quote: Scott: “Except there are no terrorists. All there are are local Pashtun tribesmen fighting because our guys are on their front lawn.”
Source: https://scotthorton.org/interviews/9317-peter-van-buren-interviews-scott-about-fools-errand/
November 7, 2017 — Walter Jones
Horton calls it the ‘safe haven myth,’ stresses Afghanistan’s extreme remoteness and argues it provides no special access to America.
Quote: Scott: “Afghanistan is the far side of Earth from everywhere, it provides no special access to the United States.”
December 28, 2017 — Scott Horton, “War Without a Rationale — The myth of the Afghan safe haven just won’t die”
Quote: Scott: “This safe haven argument is a myth—a false but widely believed tale used to justify continuing a policy of perpetual failure.”
Quote: Scott: “Afghanistan is exile. Afghanistan is as far as someone could ever get from anywhere.”
Source: https://theamericanconservative.com/war-without-a-rationale/
February 2, 2018 — Danny Sjursen
Horton identifies the safe-haven myth as the residual argument for permanent war after other rationales failed.
Quote: Scott: “addressing the safe haven myth, which is the final excuse for why we have to stay in Afghanistan forever.”
March 3, 2018 — “Fool’s Errand,” Libertarian Party of Pennsylvania / C-SPAN Book TV
Source: https://www.c-span.org/program/book-tv/fools-errand/498797
Source: https://scotthorton.org/videos/c-span-book-tv-fools-errand-afghanistan-pennsylvania-lp-3-03-18/
March 4, 2018 — “Scott Horton Explains Why the US War in Afghanistan is Unwinnable,” Middle East Books and More
Relevant quotations from the speech:
“The attackers on 9/11 were not Taliban, they were Egyptians and Saudis.”
“We cannot win it. Because, to oversimplify it, the first reason is the brutality of the occupation and the way the war is waged against innocents.”
“These are people who would rather die than give up.”
“They will not give up and cannot be defeated.”
“They are the only functioning government in the vast majority of the country now.”
“The Taliban does not have to lose. They just have to hang on, and they have.”
“the war in Afghanistan has accomplished nothing”
Safe-haven relevance: Horton directly separates the Afghan Taliban from the 9/11 attackers and from al-Qaeda, calling the war against the Taliban “a huge distraction from taking on the enemy, al-Qaeda.”
Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=jYkM3Vzl6v0
Source: https://scotthorton.org/videos/scott-horton-explains-why-the-u-s-war-in-afghanistan-is-unwinnable/
Quote: Scott: “bin Laden’s agenda was … to bring us to Afghanistan and do the same thing to us that they did to the Russians.”
Quote: Scott: “Taking on the Taliban was actually a huge distraction from taking on the enemy, al-Qaeda.”
Quote: Scott: “The attackers on 9/11 were not Taliban, they were Egyptians and Saudis.”
Quote: Scott: “We cannot win it. Because, to oversimplify it, the first reason is the brutality of the occupation and the way the war is waged against innocents.”
Quote: Scott: “These are people who would rather die than give up.”
Quote: Scott: “They will not give up and cannot be defeated.”
Quote: Scott: “The Taliban does not have to lose. They just have to hang on, and they have.”
Quote: Scott: “the war in Afghanistan has accomplished nothing”
April 18, 2018 — Ron Paul Liberty Report interviews Scott Horton — Fool’s Errand, 17 Years in Afghanistan
Ron Paul and Daniel McAdams interview Horton in studio about Fool’s Errand, whether the Afghan war could have been avoided despite al-Qaeda’s presence, and the broader pattern of permanent U.S. wars.
Source: https://ronpaulinstitute.org/fools-errand-17-years-in-afghanistan/
July 30, 2018 — Daniel Davis
Horton continues the argument that talking to the Taliban and leaving does not create a unique path for international terrorists to attack America.
Quote: Scott: “They act as though there’s some magic porthole from Nangarhar province to Boston Logan Airport.”
Source: https://scotthorton.org/interviews/7-30-18-daniel-davis-says-its-time-to-talk-to-the-taliban/
August 17, 2018 — Foreign Policy Focus interviews Scott Horton — Trump’s Afghan War
Kyle Anzalone interviews Horton about the first year of Trump’s Afghanistan policy. Horton argues that additional U.S. troops had not curbed violence in Kabul, that the war effort was futile, and that the United States should come home.
Source: https://libertarianinstitute.org/kyle/fpf-234-trumps-afghan-war-guest-scott-horton/
August 20, 2018 — Scott Horton on Afghanistan — New Jersey Libertarian Party
Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=FX6ALDrLYyI
October 20, 2018 — Danny Sjursen
Safe-haven rationale rejected in a broader discussion of the actual Afghan war and the absence of a coherent U.S. security mission.
Quote: Sjursen: “the safe haven myth is just that. It’s a myth. It’s a legend. It’s a tall tale.”
Source: https://scotthorton.org/interviews/10-20-18-danny-sjursen-on-the-war-in-afghanistan/
October 28, 2018 — “The Negative Impact of the Unnecessary War on Terrorism,” Committee for Responsible Foreign Policy
Direct transcript evidence:
“America’s 17-year and counting war on terror undermines our strategic interests in the Middle East and threatens the safety and happiness of the American people.”
“U.S.-made fail states in Iraq, Syria, Yemen, and Libya … provide terrorists more space and cover to train than Afghanistan ever offered to begin with.”
November 30, 2018 — Sheldon Richman
Horton explicitly identifies ‘fight them there or fight them here’ as the safe-haven myth.
Quote: Scott: “The safe haven myth.”
Source: https://scotthorton.org/interviews/11-30-18-sheldon-richman-on-immigration-and-the-drug-war/
December 21, 2018 — Daniel Davis
The discussion explains why Afghanistan itself was incidental to the 9/11 conspiracy: the decisive ‘terrain’ was the conspirators and their transnational mobility, not Afghan soil.
Quote: Davis: “most of the actual planning was done in Germany, in Maryland and Florida and some other US states.”
January 28, 2019 — Robert Gaines and Scott Horton, “Trump Is Right, It’s Time to End the Afghan War”
Quote: Horton/Gaines: “Occupying Afghanistan indefinitely will not prevent future attacks.”
March 6, 2019 — Robert Gaines and Scott Horton, “There Is No Humanitarian Reason for the Afghanistan War”
Source: https://theamericanconservative.com/there-is-no-humanitarian-reason-for-the-afghanistan-war/
Source: https://scotthorton.org/articles/there-is-no-humanitarian-reason-for-the-afghanistan-war/
May 25, 2019 — Daniel Davis
Horton rejects the idea that local Afghan/Pakistani fighters possess special ‘access to the West’ and distinguishes them from transnational al-Qaeda.
Quote: Scott: “They’re just local tribesmen. Don’t give me this crap about they’re ISIS.”
Source: https://scotthorton.org/interviews/5-25-19-daniel-davis-on-the-unwinnable-war-in-afghanistan/
July 17, 2019 — Jason Ditz
Horton labels the rationale the ‘safe haven myth.’
Quote: Scott: “Safe haven myth. Right?”
Source: https://scotthorton.org/interviews/7-17-19-jason-ditz-on-iran-yemen-and-afghanistan/
July 30, 2019 — Danny Sjursen
Horton calls safe haven the generals’ central talking point for staying in Afghanistan.
Quote: Scott: “the safe haven myth is the most important talking point of the generals.”
Source: https://scotthorton.org/interviews/7-30-19-danny-sjursen-on-trump-ending-the-war-in-afghanistan/
August 12, 2019 — Jason Ditz
Horton invokes 9/11 conspirators operating practically next door to U.S. intelligence facilities and remarks sarcastically, ‘So some safe haven as far as all that goes.’
Source: https://scotthorton.org/interviews/8-12-19-jason-ditz-with-the-latest-on-afghanistan/
August 30, 2019 — Danny Sjursen
Horton continues the safe-haven critique in the context of ending the war under Trump.
Quote: Scott: “the whole joke about Afghanistan being some kind of magic portal to Boston Logan Airport.”
November 22, 2019 — Donald Bolduc
Safe-haven rationale addressed while Horton argues for limiting intervention and ending the Afghan commitment.
Quote: Scott: “Because al-Qaeda is going to travel from Afghanistan to Boston Logan Airport by some magical portal.”
Source: https://scotthorton.org/interviews/11-22-19-donald-bolduc-on-limiting-us-military-intervention/
December 10, 2019 — Daniel Davis, Matthew Hoh and Danny Sjursen
The Afghanistan Papers discussion returns to the lack of a genuine U.S.-security rationale for endless occupation.
Quote: Scott: “I forgot who it was earlier that mentioned the safe haven myth.”
Source: https://scotthorton.org/interviews/12-10-19-davis-hoh-and-sjursen-reflect-on-the-war-in-afghanistan/
December 13, 2019 — Adam Wunische
Very strong geographical hit: Horton asks how terrorists are supposed to reach the West from Afghanistan and notes that Mohamed Atta was an Egyptian engineering student in Germany.
Quote: Scott: “how the hell are they supposed to get to the West from there anyway?”
February 21, 2020 — Sheldon Richman
Horton compresses the argument into the ‘magic portal to Boston Logan Airport’ line: proponents imply a mechanism by which Afghan territory grants direct access to America but never explain it.
Quote: Scott: “Just the magic portal to Boston Logan Airport that they don’t even ever have to describe.”
Source: https://scotthorton.org/interviews/2-21-20-sheldon-richman-on-the-nonintervention-principle/
March 6, 2020 — Dan McKnight
Horton explicitly says ‘safe haven myth’ and describes the argument that Bagram must be held forever so no one can gather beyond U.S. reach.
Quote: Scott: “Safe haven myth. We can’t allow Afghanistan to be a place where people can gather out of range.”
Source: https://scotthorton.org/interviews/3-6-20-dan-mcknight-on-the-defend-the-guard-movement/
August 28, 2020 — Doug Bandow
Horton explains how the safe-haven premise turns into a doctrine that America can never leave anywhere.
Quote: Scott: “the safe haven myth is the ultimate Trump card.”
Source: https://scotthorton.org/interviews/8-28-20-doug-bandow-on-americas-failures-as-the-worlds-police/
September 5, 2020 — Gareth Porter
Another top-tier version: ‘magic portal to Boston Logan Airport,’ Afghanistan as exile, and the contrast with Egyptian engineering students studying in Germany.
Quote: Scott: “as though Afghanistan has some magic portal to Boston Logan Airport.”
Source: https://scotthorton.org/interviews/9-5-20-gareth-porter-on-trumps-first-term-foreign-policy-record/
October 9, 2020 — Daniel Davis
Horton continues the argument that American military occupation is not what prevents transnational terrorism.
October 23, 2020 — Danny Sjursen
Horton says ISIS-K provides ‘a whole new lease on the safe haven myth.’
Quote: Scott: “here’s ISIS, a whole new lease on the safe haven myth.”
November 6, 2020 — Dave DeCamp
Horton says the hunt for an Egyptian al-Qaeda figure in Afghanistan is ‘the key to the safe haven myth’ used to keep Americans from supporting withdrawal.
Quote: Scott: “that’s the key to the safe haven myth, to make the Americans change their mind and refuse to leave.”
March 26, 2021 — Matthew Hoh
Horton again treats safe haven as the argument Biden appears to believe; the discussion distinguishes the Taliban from international terrorist organizations.
Quote: Scott: “He really believes in the safe haven for terrorist crap.”
Source: https://scotthorton.org/interviews/3-26-21-matthew-hoh-on-bidens-afghanistan-equivocations/
April 23, 2021 — Gareth Porter
Safe-haven rationale challenged in the final withdrawal debate.
Quote: Scott: “everyone knows about the magic portal directly to Boston Logan Airport.”
May 7, 2021 — Heather Brandon-Smith
Horton independently argues that the supposed Afghan al-Qaeda sanctuary was tiny while U.S. policy tolerated a far more accessible jihadist sanctuary in Idlib.
Quote: Scott: “who wants to bring up a safe haven myth about the Afghan-Pakistan border?”
