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Matt Taibbi returns to the show in an interview recorded while he was at the Republican National Convention. He and Scott talk about the Trump assassination attempt, likely replacements for Joe Biden (the interview was recorded before Biden officially announced he is stepping down from the race), how the media’s coverage of Donald Trump has evolved and more.

Discussed on the show:

• “Illa in Manila: Will History Demand Trump-Hillary II?” (Racket News)
• “The Surrender” (Racket News)

Matt Taibbi is a journalist, author and political commentator. Subscribe to his Substack publication: Racket News and follow him on Twitter @mtaibbi.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Roberts and Robers Brokerage Incorporated; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; Libertas Bella; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott.

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Scott talks to Peter Van Buren about the effects of war on American culture. They discuss the fact that America has been at war almost constantly for its entire history, ever since the nation was formed by overthrowing the British. Having an external enemy supposedly allows people to put their differences aside and feel unity as a country, but it comes at the cost of money, lives, and an ever-increasing encroachment of government power into the private sphere. Van Buren also discusses his recent article about the bombing of Hiroshima, and the ways the government and military sought to bury the truth from the American public.

Discussed on the show:

• “Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing” (The American Conservative)
• “The Untold History of the United States” (IMDb)
• “The decision to use the atomic bomb” (Harper’s Magazine)
• The Doomsday Machine: Confessions of a Nuclear War Planner

Peter Van Buren worked for 24 years at the Department of State including a year in Iraq. He is the author of We Meant Well: How I Helped Lose the Battle for the Hearts and Minds of the Iraqi People and the novel Hooper’s War. He is now a contributing editor at The American Conservative magazine.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; Washinton Babylon; Liberty Under Attack Publications; Listen and Think Audio; TheBumperSticker.com; and LibertyStickers.com.

Donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal, or Bitcoin: 1KGye7S3pk7XXJT6TzrbFephGDbdhYznTa.

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sorry I’m late. I had to stop by the wax museum again. Did the finger that FDR We know Al Qaeda Zawahiri is supporting the opposition in Syria. Are we supporting Al Qaeda in Syria? It’s a proud day for America. Ghad Kice, Knut Gnehm syndrome once and for all. Thank you Very I say And I see it again. Bin are trying to simply deny things that just about everybody else except as fact Saud died way Kila Bayh, Armey Mutawakil Ind Maale we Bol Beito like, say I’m Ain Bin Say it. Say it three times the meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world. Then that’s going to be an invasion. Hey guys, check it out on the line. I’ve got Pieter Van Buren, former State Department whistleblower, author of We Meant Well And also Huu Purse wore a Memoir of Natta memoir something about World War Two Japan. How are you doing? I’m doing well, Scott. Thanks for having me back. It’s always a pleasure to be here. Help me with that subtitle Manan Seri The novel of World War Two Japan That’s what I meant to say. Yeah, a novel of world War two Japan, and it’s a book about moral injury. It’s a book about what happens to people in in war, and it’s his book that set in World War two as a so called neutral setting that will hopefully allow us tow. Have a conversation about these topics without bringing in the external politics of more modern wars. Because, unfortunately, the things that wars due to human beings, whether they’re the the targets or or the trigger pullers are universal and haven’t changed a lot since since the early Greeks and whether it’s Afghanistan or Okinawa or a fictional battle as I created my my book, Cooper’s War. The stories, unfortunately, are very much the same. Yeah, man, you know, it’s funny because everybody knows that everybody says that. Sherman said that war is hell, and everybody knows that guys come home from or and then stand intersections, asking people to help him get by before they die. Ah, I grew up with Vietnam veterans on the side of the road constantly, you know, is that my old thing? And like, um so everybody knows that. But at the same time, we also know that war is what makes us Great War is what makes us us Without that. What are we accept? Just a bunch of, you know, disconnected individual community, less beings. Andar Armey. That’s the thing that makes us the USA Together. It’s kicking butt and stopping bad guys and stuff. It really is. I mean, it comes as close to, ah national religion as anything else. Certainly a national obsession. Um, the idea that a few things that pull us together are when the United States is quote under threat from abroad. Um, and whether that threat is somewhere on the rial scale or somewhere on the completely made up scale is is largely irrelevant if you want to look back. I mean, I’m not a big fan of sort of the single theory of history where Wone event tower Wone theme sort of controls everything. Ah, the New York Times, of course. This week has released their 16 19 project, which posits that everything in America is based on slavery and those type of looks, whether it’s slavery or whether it’s war are simplistic. But at some point there’s validity buried in there, and the idea that America must exist in a state of conflict. That an external enemy is always necessary has a lot of validity. Our country was founded on, ah, that the fighting the external enemy of the British. And there’s been relatively few periods in our history where we haven’t done that. About the only significant time where we haven’t summoned an external enemy is, of course, when we used an internal enemy during our Civil War period, the kind of substitute for it, you know that the problem with that is that the casualties were usually multiplied by double. And, uh, you know, making out the bad guys when they speak the same language gets a little tricky. So if we’ve luckily corrected that mistake and haven’t repeated it since 18 65. So Cem good news is mixed in as well. Yeah, a little bit. Um well, you know, it’s always seemed to me that partially just because history in American education is so neglected that really people don’t know anything about George Washington or even Abraham Lincoln when it comes to you know, America’s founders that really what we have is FDR Huu Lead America Atto, War against Hitler and save the economy. Doing so, they say brought the unemployment rate down by conscripting 16 million people, and they stopped one of history’s greatest tyrants. And so, um, that’s really where we Bin stock ever since then, right? Is World War Two. Yeah. Then when you talk about American history, it’s very interesting, because I it would be amused to find, ah, someone to point out a ah high school in America that accurately and thoroughly, even even gets into the history of America. Post World War Two. Um, it’s been a couple of years since I’ve been in high school, but ah, you know, I watch my kids go through it. I see friends and neighbors. Kids go through it in American history is incomplete. And as poorly taught as it is from, uh, you know, the founding up through World War Two sort of tapers off into a grey fuzzies. Oh, Gn! And then World War two in Korean. Uh, Nixon was Badr Andrei, and that was kind of it. Cem. Wonderful attempts, and I’ll put in ah, quick pitch for an Oliver Stone project. That’s I think it’s on Netflix right now, but it alternates between Netflix and Showtime and Amazon and those things Khader Gn Untold history of the United States and it basically, uh, piggybacks on Howard Zinn’s work and some other ah, fine scholars. But it presents in a fairly lively documentary form the history of the last 80 years of the United States, Um, in a little bit, Maura, uh, objective point of you talking about the underlying themes that we’ve just touched on very briefly and sarcastically here. But this idea of dominance, of empire, of the need for an external enemy looking into the the value of the Cold War. If you’re a politician running for office now, it’s an Oliver Stone project. And so you there’s places where it can’t help itself but go over the top. But that is just kind of a little little spice along the way. There’s a lot of very good history in there. And if the listener is saying, Well, all right, fine. Scott, you’ve convinced me I need to educate myself. You could start in worse places than watching a couple hours of that. Yeah, well, you know, one of the benefits of being a libertarian is that you can indulge all you want in leftist historical revisionism or for that matter. Right wing historical revisionism, Awene Whatever issues Ind, you don’t have to abandon your identity in order to look into something like that. Where is a conservative? Mike? Oh my God! Oliver Stone and his Com Lille story and co author. I can’t Beirt toe peek through my fingers at what they might say. I don’t want to know, and I don’t want anyone. I don’t want to think that I have anything in common with anybody like that. But when you’re libertarian, reject like me, no problem. And there’s great value in that Siri’s. And in fact, once they start to get into the terror wars, I turned it off because I didn’t want to copy them in any way. I was in the middle of writing Fool’s errand at the time, and there’s too much good stuff in there, and I don’t wantto um, you know, I wanted to prevent myself from sounding too much like what they were doing, so I I will look much on the on the word revisionism because I I understand exactly how you mean it, and it’s a valid word. But be cautious up for people out there about that word because it’s oftentimes flung about when you think someone is sort of revising things, telling you that what you knew was was wrong. But I like the word incomplete. Is, um, almost better trying to say the same thing? Of course. The idea. Well, I kind of like the confrontation in that. That Guess what, pal. The official history of everything has written is all false. So if you want to be straight about anything, you’re gonna have to go back and look at critics. I mean, look at the way they lied to you every day on the news. That’s the history. Next year, you could read in American History Book right now in, you know, probably Eni College in America will tell you the Branch Davidians Awal committed suicide. Well, you know what you need, Cem historical revisionism, Because that’s not what happened. For one example, the thing is, is what concerns me. And ah, I’m actually I just came back from Germany, and this part of that trip I made ah visit to two. Dakhil and I spent a little time poking into not the roots of Nazism and things like that. I think if someone is out and out, putting out falsehoods those If you’re willing to engage with the material you can you can kind of poke those down fairly quickly. But what is what is more dangerous is incomplete. Is, um if I’m going to coin a phrase here is the idea that we’re gonna tell you enough true stuff, but not all of it. And, you know, here’s a set of facts that on their own arm or or less accurate but lead you to a false conclusion, as opposed to saying I mean what, for example, that the theme of what I’m writing Awene is those who claimed America is, you know, Germany in 1933 know nothing about Germany of 1933 you could pull up little little points of connection and you ca Gn try to argue that that silly elementary school tweets are the equivalent of the Nuremberg speech. But in fact, those air false conclusions, they give you bits of fax that lead you to something. But they are so incomplete that they lead youto to an end. I mean, elephants have legs, grasshoppers have legs. Nobody wants to claim an elephant is a grasshopper and that’s the thing. And that’s what that becomes. Very dangerous. Because if I come right out and say something completely false and silly, then you could kind of shoot that down. Even even a quick drive through Wikipedia might be enough. But if I give you Cem riel information and let you kind of with the idea of walking you toward a particular conclusion, well, then it’s more difficult because you go back and you say, Well, gosh, you know, the looks like the Japanese weren’t really ready to surrender. So maybe blowing up Hiro Shima Nagasaki was necessary and simply the fact that there were problems with arranging the Japanese surrender, which is true. But by presenting Awene Lee that bit of information and nothing. Maura, I’ve led you to conclude that the annihilation of two civilian cities was perfectly justified. And that’s where things get nasty and a little bit difficult. Well, you know, one thing that I learned very recently in the, you know, kind of annual discussion of the atomic bombings, which, by the way, is why I brought you on today. Don’t whitewash that Hiro Husham. A bombing, uh, is the subject here, but little anecdote. And I don’t think this came from from your piece. It was something else. I read that right after the war, Stimson said, or maybe even still during the work, the secretary of war said we ought to go ahead and give the atomic bomb plans to Stalin because they’re gonna get him anyway. And by doing by, you know, uh, hoarding the secret, we’re just gonna make the USSR distrust us more. We’re gonna get the whole post war era off on the wrong foot. We could end up in arms race against him in all of this stuff, so we should try to keep it. So just knowing that that was there and he was overruled, of course. And the Russians got nukes two years later, three years later, something anyway, um, and in fact, there were. You know, there’s plenty of good reason to believe that Americans did transfer nuclear technology to them in order to help with that regardless, But it just goes to show that that was the Secretary of Wars advice to the president at the time, which you don’t have to agree with that at all. I’m not sure I agree with that necessarily. But it sure is important to know that that’s there, because at the very least, it shows you that the way things turned out, it didn’t necessarily have to be that way. It could have been some other way, whereas the way were, you know, present, especially when we’re kids in school, is that essentially everything that happened had to happen. You think Truman, our great president whose name was true man, would nuke people if he didn’t have to? That the American people would have elected a man who would have Newt people if he didn’t have to? No way. It goes without saying that it had to be. Or else it wouldn’t have been. So you get a little fact like that and you go Wow. Okay, maybe, you know what? If Arthur Vandenberg had had a heart attack and didn’t give a Cheny didn’t have a chance to tell Harry Truman scare the hell out of them. Come on, let’s build up the US says Sorry, that just lost tens of millions of people in this war and pretend they’re about to conquer the Earth. If we don’t stop him, what if those people hadn’t been there that week, things might have been entirely different. And this is why we’re talking about Hiro. Shima, an event of 75 years ago is because historians study history to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past, whereas politicians manipulate history in order to set up what they want to do in the future. And there’s really not a better case study. If if you will, then then Hiro Shima and the aftermath of the atomic bombing you basically had from a historical perspective, you had, Ah, an action taken in the midst of war that happened the way it happened. And we can go back and look at it and say, Did was it truly necessary for the United States to annihilate two cities full of men, women and children? Non combatants for the in almost 100%. But what the politicians did in America was to manipulate a set of fax and take advantage of Cem very skillful propaganda to repurpose that historic those historical questions for the future to set up what they expected to be a nuclear conflict with the Soviet Union and their example, they were going to use Hiro Shima not as a way of reflecting on our Cont Awene are our actions in World War Two, but as a way of preparing the American people for the atomic conflict that they felt was was imminent. And the way that people are manipulated by history by constrained use of fax is very, very, very relevant. Most of your listeners have lived through the post 9 11 years where the events of September 11th were manipulated into, ah, nearly endless series of wars that are continuing even through today. Many ah have been with us for the last year where a, uh of the events of so called Russia Ge Ayt have Bin failed to be successfully manipulated to end the Trump presidency. Um, these lessons are not in abstract. This isn’t grad school, you know, five pages with footnotes. If you want the B plus, this is extremely relevant stuff. And by using a historical example, we have a wee Ge Ain the advantage of perspective be we may be removed some of the immediate emotion and also we take advantage of the fact that we have a more full set of of information to work with than we have Ardmore contemporary events. It it, unfortunately in our transparent democracy, takes decades for information to finally slowly creep out of government hands. Because course, controlling what information is public allows you to control the conclusions the public reaches. Hey guys. Scott here for Liberty under Attack Publications looking for a Liberty Focus publisher Liberty Under Attack publishes books and strategy guides for individuals looking to increase their personal freedom. They assist authors through the entire publishing process. Proof reading, editing, cover designs, paperback and kindle formatting and full audio book narration and post production. Tell him Scott sent you and get 20% off a full service deal. To get Cem one of a kind books, or for more information, visit Liberty under attack dot com. Hey, guys, check out, listen and think audio books. They’re listening, think dot com and, of course, Awene audible dot com. And they feature my book Fools Ehren, Time to End the War in Afghanistan, as well as brand new Out Inside Syria by our friend Reese Erlich and a lot of other great books, mostly by libertarians. There, Reese might be one exception, but essentially they’re Awal libertarian audiobooks. And here’s how you can get a lifetime subscription to listen and think audiobooks. Just donate $100 to The Scott Horton show at scott Kortan dot or Ge slash donate. Now there’s Cem important truths and narratives that were coming out of the atomic bombings at the time that you’re saying they weren’t just, you know, covered up for, you know, reasons of the American government losing face for doing such a thing to two places that were, in fact, not military bases as originally claimed. And all that, but really to set the American people up to get usedto life in the era of atomic wars. And so, uh, talk a little bit more about that, and you’re like in specific How do you know that? What are the examples of where they decided that this is what we’re doing? And this is why we have to spin it this way? We’re going to jump ahead here of the question of worthy atomic in. If you’re sitting in the Oval Office in late July 1945 and someone says, Hey, Mr President, should we drop these atomic bombs? Let’s set aside the question of truly were those bombs necessary to end the war at that point in time. And it’s a difficult just preference that by saying it is a difficult question, particularly when you’re looking backwards and trying to place yourself in that room, you know, in late July 1945 and think like 1945 people, not not 2019 people. But let’s just skip ahead and used as a starting point that the atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and decimated two undefended cities almost entirely populated by Non Non combatants. And and the war ended, which it absolutely did end. The American people at initially were fed ah, line of that. So that’s then we go back and look at at the messaging as we talk about it today. The original announcement of the bomb by Harry Truman was an absolutely vengeful statement. I mean, biblical proportions, as they say, he said. I we’re now prepared to obliterate Mordor rapidly and completely every productive enterprise the Japanese have above ground in any city. That’s not like, Hey, we’re gonna destroy their power to make war. Eni. I mean, he was pretty straightforward with his word choices in that particular speech went on to talk about mass casualties and spoke of cruelty at levels previously unknown on this Earth outside of biblical times. That message of vengeance was the initial messaging, and it played well to a population that was weary of war. And basically that’s what stood for about a year and 1/2 to the extent that people even focused on it. And when, in writing what was a fictional book about World War two I. I read through an awful lot of archive materials, and not there wasn’t as much conversation about the nuclear bombing of two cities as you might think. Would would. Would it be engendered. It was focus. The focus was on something else. The end of the war, Foer Wone of, ah, focal point. It was John Hershey’s 1946 article in The New Yorker. That kind of began the change in conversation. It wasn’t when you when you study history, you pick out these events because it make. It’s a great way to talk about history. It’s not like prior to her, she’s article no one talked about Khera Shia Monde, you know, suddenly it fell from the sky, so to speak. It isn’t that case it Awal g uys were coming back. Photos were leaking. This was, ah, time when when information spread very differently and much more slowly. The point is, is that John Hershey, Ga. Was one of the first reporters that went to Hiro Shima to report on what happened there. End was not censored. The war had ended. People were no longer the military was less concerned about sitting on these type of articles, and there was certainly no tactical information that could be accidentally given away. And her, she wrote, Ah, brilliant article, which later became a book which explained in in terrifying, horrific detail, what happens to a civilian population undefended when they are Newt. And this caused a coupled with the timing of it. It was a It was a year and 1/2 or so after the war. Americans were anxious to forget as much as they could, and this was a Gn economic boom that was starting. We all know the story of the post war economic boom for most people in the United States, and suddenly there was a Gn opening for reflection about who we were and what we did, and Hershey Foer like I’ll say, almost by accident, stepped into that. Now the problem was, is that this period of reflection over how America made war was coinciding with what the government knew was the beginning of what we call the Cold War. Inside Washington, they were no longer thinking about having defeated the Nazis in the Japanese. All eyes were on Moscow, and everyone was planning on how this next war was going to play out. We were, Ah, not long away, a year or so away from what became known as the Berlin Airlift, the Iron Curtain. I mean, all this stuff was percolating in Washington, and they knew this was coming. And the idea of softening the American people to the idea of nuclear war did not fit with the Program Ind. John Hershey’s article and the introspection that it caused just Werth Wrong messaging Foer in America that Washington knew they were going to push into the Cold War and the Cold War was good, was was a nuclear conflict and was going to involve the annihilation of multiple Russian and door Chinese cities. And ah, we didn’t need any soft selling Awene that something had to be done, and what was done was essentially the last 60 years of propaganda. But it started again for lack of a pinpoint starting point. It started with a 1947 article by Secretary of War Henry Stimson. Huu, I think you mentioned earlier, um, he actually wasn’t the author. And because history does enjoy irony, the author was Makki George Bundy Huu your listeners will recognize as one of the best and the brightest in the John F. Kennedy crowd that drove America into Vietnam and the atrocities that characterized that war. So Mich. George Bundy wrote this article, basically creating the talking points for the American government and the American people for the next 70 some years that the atomic bombs were necessary to end the war quickly, that the atomic bombs not only saved the lives of and by the way, the numbers jumped from from every time you Goa through a historical reference that the numbers get bigger, you know, jump from 10,000 dead Americans repeating Japan to 100,000 to a million on the beaches. And that’s a President Bush senior had said that Hato 1,000,000 American Boyz would have died invading Japan. Yeah, and you can find references to that. But the interesting thing is, as you walk, those are if you walk back the stories and articles and references and think tank pieces that the number of Americans that was going to be killed in that invasion increased by a factor of a hundredfold. Um, in the five years after the war ended. But more importantly, Stimpson began laying out. But the idea that not only did we save American lives in the use of the atomic bomb, we save Japanese lives, too. That, you know, is that Woodword, as they say, You can’t make make this stuff up. I mean, the this article, which is really the beginning of it all it’s in. Ah was in Harper’s magazine in February of 1947. And maybe you could post a link to my article which has all the references. Khair Pillay will. But I mean, the idea is it say we save Japanese lives because dang it, if we would have had to ah, conduct a land invasion of Japan, we would have had to kill more of them little yellow fellers. So you know the people who died Id Hiro Shima and Nagasaki Man. They they were kind of the crumple zone for the rest of Japan were going to kill more of them. And there was in in, in a sense, in February 1947. And it written form the creation of the what I call the Hiro Shima myth and which became the basis of the Cold War that annihilating cities was part of the way nuclear war was going to work, that Americans were ready for this and that Ge Osh. In a way, it’s actually gonna help them because, you know, the more Russians we kill in that initial blast, the less likely they are to kill. Continue the war, et cetera. It became it’s no, no, no joke. That was a little Freudian slip there about the Russians, right, because it was a demonstration for the Russians. Oh, that’s that’s another. That’s another line of argument, one of the when we go. That’s why I started. Where I did is the bomb dropped? I started with that point because one of the arguments about the unnecessary nous of the Khera Huma Nagasaki bombings at all was that they weren’t needed to stop the war. They were done as a proof of concept for the Russians, you know. Look what we got. You want to mess with us? This is what you’re messing with. So I kind of skipped over the arguments against dropping the bombs because I wanted to focus forward here on how America manipulated this. I only brought it up now because you just called the Japanese Russians, so I thought I would Okay. Are they different? It was It was, you know, it’s a slip. Was Awal Yeah, this is a matter because they’re not Americans. And that’s where I important. They’re all Russians, everybody or they’re all Japanese. Same difference. Whatever the enemy, the enemy is really how is really what matters. And so there was this creation of of these of what I call the Hiro Shima myth. And it has survived mightily because in many ways it became the core of convincing Americans that the Cold War was a noble cause and what we were going to have Atto eventually do. And and it was almost a certainty. If you read back through the archives in the 19 fifties, it was almost a certainty inside Washington that we were going to go to nuclear war with Russians, possibly also the Chinese. It really wasn’t until the sixties, when the Russians started to to get a little stronger about this. And and I think there was a little bit Hmmmmm Aurdic instance between World War Two that American government started to kind of imagine, maybe we weren’t. This wasn’t as inevitable. I haven’t looked into it is closely, but potentially, you could argue. Somewhere around the Cuban missile crisis, it changed from inevitable to maybe something we could avoid. Um, not ready to go to the mat on that statement. But I think it’s it’s one that’s worth exploring. What if you haven’t read the Doomsday machine by Dan Ellsberg yet? Definitely do. The bottom line is that Hiro Shima was the aftermath of Hiro Shima was a myth that was specifically created. Foer propaganda purposes by the United States, too. A pair of the American public Foer the inevitable nuclear conflict to come. It served the interests of the United States government long past the Cold War and still kind of pops in around the edges of when you’ve got to explain away accidentally droning a wedding party in Afghanistan to kill Wone terrorist. The Hiro Shima myth is underneath all that. It underlies these type of things. You hear military people and politicians today saying things like, Hey, if the people of Fallujah didn’t harbor terrorists, we would wouldn’t have been necessary to destroy them in the in the process. So there are There are hints and there are notes of the Hiro Shima myth that persists Awal through modern time Itsu proven to be an extraordinary piece of propaganda. Um uh and it’s still very much a part of us today. Yeah, man, you’re right about that. It’s like a big Milgram experiment or something. Hey, it’s required that you continue to endorse. This is Everybody else does. And you don’t want to look like a hippie. OK, good. That’s good enough. And think about just how shallow and ridiculous this argument is that to save American G uys admittedly conscripts. I mean, don’t get me wrong. But to save American G I s we get to nuke women and children. Ralph Rico, In his article, Hiro Chaman, Nagasaki says, Well, what if we’re you know, we’re just talking about the Nazis who didn’t have nukes, but instead they would just round up women and children in the town square and then just machine Ghanem like that. Would that have been okay for the Americans to go into Khera Shima with our Infantry and round up the population into the center of town? Ind. Just straight machine gunned them all to death like the Gestapo in order to get the government in Tokyo to surrender. Because that’s what the Gestapo would do. The enemy in this story that might be with the Japanese imperialists would have done. Yeah, it’s brutal, is they were, But that’s who we are now and then. But somehow this is, as you say, totally good enough. In fact, Lider, look awake Oo again. Well, we got to get that David Koresh. Yeah, but there’s a bunch of women and children in their Ghad aying. Dave Karesh. I heard he deals Drugs blah, blah, Ge kill them all. You gotta we gotta save the lives of a couple of cops who picked this fight in the first place. It comes down to ah, very core part of America Andar I’ll just say policy, I don’t want to even say foreign policy and that is, expediency always seems to trump morality. Minni, you know the right thing to do under difficult circumstances is kind of how this stuff gets spun. You know, nobody. Nobody is proud of, ah, killing women and children. But there’s always the butt butt, you know, we got to get bad guys off the streets and, you know, if there’s some collateral damage that’s sad but unfortunate reality of things. And that, in a way, describes Iraqs Jima. In a word, it describes thehe Trotksy cities that fueled the Vietnam War. It describes every civilian drone strike in Afghanistan or Iraq or limit on, or Syria or Libya or wherever. Um, do we need to spell it out? Sure. Why not? Yeah, at Libya, you know the idea that we had to get rid of Khadafy for? Because he was Ah, a Gn evil guy justified the destruction of the country and turning it into an ungoverned wasteland where we had to burn the village in order to save it. In a way, you know, this is that’s the Hiro Shima, Mich? Yep. You know, there’s a new one for our time to which is George W. Bush is absolutely unprovoked, aggressive invasion of Iraq in 2003 when they just marched the Marines and the third Infantry Division straight in from Kuwait. And now anything less than that is fine. You look a There is a great example. This was Jeremy Scahill on the show with Bill Maher Wone time on HBO a few years back during Obama years and skate Khel saying, Look, I mean Obamas murdering people. You’re mentioning wedding parties? I’m pretty sure that was one of the points he made. Their tiny, innocent people are being killed by these drones. Ah, £500 bombs, Natta scalpel and kills innocent people and Bill Margo’s Yeah, but compared to George Bush marching the third Infantry Division into Iraq, that’s nothing. It is a surgical in comparison to this other bigger thing. So we could drone strike all damn day. Yeah, and this idea that evil scales, um in that becomes Maury evil or less evil. And that somehow matters. Uh, I just have a hard time with that, but it rests at the core of America’s actions. We we’d like to imagine ourselves as nice people, and we want tohave things like the hero she Momot or what you were just describing as a way to kind of remind ourselves that we are nice people. Um that, you know, hey, make mistakes. Everybody does. One of the things that has become so offensive to me as a thinking human being over the last three years is how all this gets garbled when it’s run through the trump filter. And, you know, we were in where we have revisionism about George W. Bush and how he did it. And certainly we have completely whitewashed the Obama years of war to the point where we’re now. Ah, I Every time I see an article about Yemen, I might My Awal searches grows that I’m like the group. You know, the my ulcer grows 10 times more because, you know, it’s like, Well, Trump is doing this in Yemen. Yes, he is. But did we already forget how we got started in Yemen? We did. We did forget that, didn’t we? And in a way, it’s like, man, I wish they could just forget that Obama did it that way. They’ll finally raise their voice against Trump. At least that is now. When it matters, you know, because you’re right, cause you never turn against their savior, the Democrat from Illinois. And this idea that history is that malleable. And we are that manipulable is why essentially the Hiro Shima myth has survived 75 years after being birthed in a magazine article in February of 1947. We we are willing participants in all this, Um, and it’s really quite quite quite shameful. I had a really, uh, kind of branching off of this and interesting ah, experience being in Germany. Um, and having lived many years in Japan, you know, when you go to Khera Sonoma, the museum there, everything starts on that August 6th morning. There’s no sense in Hiro Shima that Japanese imperialism started 30 years earlier and inexorably led to justified or not what happened in here. Oshima the Germans for for to give them some credit, have a much, much deeper sense of this and are willing to talk about it. Ind Dakhil, for example, the museum’s starts with the events of World War I and what happened in Germany between the wars, the stuff that that made the rise of a strong man who happened to be Hitlers could have been Eni number of a bunch of other guys, but Hitler was was was the one who made the rise of a dictator. Assn. Khowst Oo inevitable is as history allows and you walk away with a much better sense of having Bin Bin educated of understanding things help pieces fit together. I guess that’s so. I mean Khera the Hiro Shima myth. I I would be remiss to say that has been strongly driven and supported by the Japanese themselves. They are thrilled to death to claim as much victims status as possible for for those two terrible days. But they work closely with us to make sure that those days stand in isolation from everything that happened before in their case and everything that happened afterwards in our case. And so in a way, the politics of the Cold War contributed to the victims themselves supporting ah, false narrative because it tended to work out for everybody. Yeah, well, and you know, it’s sort of like what you were talking about with slavery and war at the beginning here in America, where same kind of thing in Japan, there, where people don’t like looking back and being honest about what’s going on there, too. They identify themselves with the collective too strongly, and so it’s an attack on their own psyche. I mean, that’s what this is all comes down to, right in social psychology. And whose side are you on? And what would your dad think of you if he knew that you changed your mind? And you agree with Jane Fonda about something now or whatever it is? And so therefore, kill them all before you think that you are like Michael Moore, which makes sense to me to write. No, Who wants to be like Michael Moore? But that’s the way everything is framed. So you’re here pro America or you’re not. And so if you’re willing to say, Look, slavery was absolutely this bad, and the genocide of the Indians and the end of the Filipinos and everybody else, for that matter, was this bad. Uh, if you’re willing to do that, essentially, it almost always comes packaged with a full scale anti Americanism. From the point of view of the right, it’s hard to find people who are American patriots but who also are perfectly happy to explore all this toe. Find out exactly what Awal it means for us then and now and in the future and this same kind of thing, and so it’s pretty easy to reject that. That was if I’ve really wanted to do this interview, right, Peter, what I should have done at the beginning if we want to really persuade people the first thing I should have done was lead with. Let’s talk about all the conservative Republicans and generals and admirals who opposed the war, because that’s the thing that gets through to people the most. And I’ve had people freak out about and heard a lot of stories to people freak out. If you’re against new Cannes, Japan, you must be the most anti American Communist piece of garbage in the world. And then you show him that, Oh, yeah, well, that’s what MacArthur thought, too. And that’s what Eisenhower and Nimitz thought. That’s what Leahy, the admiral chief of staff to the president, said, Don’t do this. I was not talk to make war against women and children, what in the world and so and then they go, 00 my God! A bunch of admirals and conservatives and Republicans and MacArthur, of all people, was against new Cannes, Japan, and it becomes very difficult. Mean the term cognitive dissidence is is to admit you’re wrong, too. Admit that you made sacrifices for the wrong cause is is humanly very, very, very difficult. And it’s perhaps even unfair to expect people who made those sacrifices themselves or sent their sons and daughters to make those sacrifices. It’s perhaps even unfair to try to ask them to to see this, true as it truly is, but we’re not them. And our job as historians auras, thinking people auras, folks who are a step or two removed is to try to look at these things. Maura objectively honest to God, if if I lost a Gn arm in the Vietnam jungles to try to tell me that that was all a complete waste of time, that’s a hard thing for me to get my self around right? I agree with that thesis. I see these thes the parkland kids on TV in the Park, Lindh dads on TV, and I just feel for them because to try to get someone who’s suffering the loss of a child, too. Objectively talk about these issues. It’s impossible. It’s not even fair to expect them. Unfortunately, there’s plenty of folks who will exploit that for their own political goals. But when you pull back a step or two steps or three steps were supposed to be smart enough to do that. And that’s why in talking about these issues and and in the book I wrote, I said it in a fictional portion of World War Two in hopes of giving the reader and myself, um, that distance, Yeah. Um, the book Evo Lt revolves around, ah, fictional struggle, and it’s all true, but it didn’t happen. And that means that hopefully we can look at these events as objectively as human beings are capable. Well, you know, you were in Iraq War, too. Not as a soldier is a State Department official. Ah, but doing work. I read the book. Finally we talked about it. I don’t know a year ago or something. Ah, the great book we meant well, And you’ve been able to, I guess, even while you were there Ah, you’re getting over it and and, you know, started blowing the whistle and about what was going on to the American people even during that time. But you know what? You’re not alone. There are a lot of people who served in, as they call it in Iraq War two and in Afghanistan and in other wars over there. Um, you know, in this century who have changed their mind about this, who are now remember Sentir Caesars Ons. I don’t claim Eni Eni Eni virtue because I happened to see through it while it was happening to me. What I’m saying is, is that it’s unfair to expect everyone to be able to do that. Agree? Yeah, No, I agree with that. I’m just saying Yeah, I mean, I don’t I do antiwar radio here, but the point is not to, like, seek out the fathers of dead veterans and tryto argue with them or anything like that. Or even the guys Huu who were in the war to confront them with it necessarily because, well, as you’re saying, you know, these were people who suffered losses. I don’t know some guy who was in Iraq war to I don’t know how many of his friends died in front of him. I’m not trying to pick a fight with a guy like that. He’s the implementer of the foreign policy. My fight is with the guys at the E e I and the Defense Department who got us into the war, of course, you know, and just his individuals there. I mean, just as an individual myself, there parts of my life I’ve been able to be introspective about in their parts of my life that I haven’t been able to reach that Ind. That I stumbled into it with Iraq. Good for me that I didn’t do it with something else. Ah, bad for me and I don’t expect that of other people, and it’s unfair to ask it of other people. What is fair is to ask folks who do already have that distance to be a lot more thoughtful about it, and then that either have that distance because they’re personally removed from a modern event or because we’re looking back at history at events that that none of us have more than 2nd 3rd generation Alaa contact with. And at that point, our excuses for not being introspective start to get a whole lot fuzzier. The idea of historically looking back, for example, I mean, we we’ve We’ve Peled around The question throughout this interview about where the atomic bombs actually necessary is intellectually a Gn interesting question. And it it’s It’s something that is worth talking about two to a certain extent because it informs the future. That’s where the value always is. I mean, you can go back and look at it. And the key is always is there some way that in the present that you can pull in some of the perspective, that of the future? In other words, you, you, you make it. You’re making decisions in your life right now. But, you know, I should I should I buy a new car? Should I? Who should I vote for? Should I do this? That or the other thing I mean, you know, we’re constantly doing that. And of course, in retrospect, when you look back at decisions, you have Maurine formacion and more distant. You know all that good stuff. So I mean, the key is always is there any way that to let what that bring that perspective in? So when you zoom into the Oval Office in June of 1945 and say, you know, Ms President we’re nearing the point where we need a decision on the atomic bomb. If you simply confine yourself to that window of time and say that Harry Truman, you know, had a had a birth defect that require refute, that didn’t allow him to think ahead. Whatever you know, then the decision to drop the bomb becomes Azzam obvious as it seemed to be Atto Harry Truman in 1945. The thing is, is that you hope that our leaders ah, are figure men and women than that. And that’s what didn’t happen in 1945. I’m gonna leave aside the question about that. This whole thing was a demo for the for the Russians. I don’t think that was a driving force in the decision to drop the bomb. I think it was in Harry Truman’s mind, you know, He was that he was a diarist. He kept I know how he had time to do anything else. He kept incredible diaries. Stimpson kept diaries as well. His diaries Air, actually, uh, available in the Yale Yeah, Yale Library and actually read through some of them. He has this incredibly neat handwriting. It’s really very easy to work with So both of these. We knew a lot about what these guys were thinking. Um, we’re not trying to put words in their head. We knew we knew what they were thinking. And Truman, for his part, was not really thinking very far ahead. And so I don’t I think, while the Russian thing was certainly probably Maura on the mind of some of his generals, Um, in Truman’s mind, he was a simple man, and he was told that we got a bigger bomb that’s going to make a bigger mess. And that’s the kind of we feel that the Japanese air Neads just Wone. They need a big push to get them to take the next step, which is to surrender, and this bomb is going to do that. And we’ve been working on it all these years, and it’s ready to go sign here, sir, and I don’t know from my own reading that it was it was a lot more complex that then that we had been blowing up people for a long, long time. In World War. Two civilians had been Awene had been targeted from from the opening days of the war long before America was even involved. And I think, without fully understanding what how evolutionary nuclear weapons were. I think in July of 1945 this was just seen as the obvious next step. Um, that said, Like I said, we hope that our leaders are bigger people than that. And think further ahead than that. Truman didn’t thing about bombing Kyoto and bombing Cem other places. You know, Stimpson was the one who argued against Kyoto. There was a target list drawn up, and it was essentially a series of cities that had not been heavily bombed. Otherwise, for whatever reasons, um, the military definitely wanted to blow up something that hadn’t been blown up before. They really were interested to see how this weapon worked. Keep in mind, they only they only had a lot of theory and, ah, handful of small scale tests that out in the desert in the United States, they didn’t really fully I know exactly what was going to happen. And they wanted to know exactly what was gonna happen. Because this this was gonna be the weapon. They were gonna be going forward with post World War Two. So there was clearly Hatin Kyoto was on that list because it hadn’t been bombed during World War Two. And, ah, Stimpson said, You know, Hey, I took my honeymoon there. It’s a World Heritage site A couple of the other people in the State Department said, Hey, if we blow up Kyoto, it’s gonna piss everybody off because it’s a World Heritage site And Truman said, Fine, I don’t care what we blow up. What’s next on the list? There wasn’t really an argument per se. It was more of a fine. You don’t want to blow up Kyoto Cannes. We blow up number two. What’s that? And that was kind of it. It’s like you and I are walking down the street and there’s three or four restaurants and I say, Hey, Scott, how about this one? And you say, Now let’s go that one, okay? I mean, it’s really that kind of casualness. So ticking over an ant pile. Yeah, and it was fine. I mean, the idea was Nagasaki itself was the secondary target right there. Would they was supposed to be ah city in Fukuoka. I’m not sure now, but that’s the idea. It doesn’t matter. It didn’t matter as long as it was more or less a virgin target. It didn’t matter which one it was. So in 1945 the decision was, I think, seen as not that big a deal. I think the big deal came afterwards when we truly understood the power of these weapons, and particularly as we moved into the Cold War, where the way that nuclear war was envisioned was not, as a Capt. Stone, 245 years of conventional conflict like World War Two, was kind of building up to this, but that nuclear weapons and the destruction of whole cities was going to be the opening of the new war that, you know, that’s where you get into the vengeance kind of thing. It’s like, Well, if the Japs hadn’t bombed Pearl Harbor and here’s a list of Japanese atrocities throughout the war, and you know, we lost all those guys in Guadalcanal and so they were really spoiling for this. Yeah, it fits, and it’s a very nice narrative that you know that Etit Atto, America’s Anger Rose and finally our righteous smiting occurred. But it got trickier when you’re talking about what was supposed what was believed to be headed in the future. Where Awene Monday morning. Moscow was a happy little city, and by lunch time it was a smoking ruin. And that was the opening shot and possibly the closing shot of a war. And so the destruction at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I think, caused people to start to think about this in ways that, honestly, I don’t think Truman was considering in July of 1945 mothers were but not Truman. Hang on just one second. Hey, guys, I got to tell you about Wall Street window dot com. It’s the great Mike’s Wansa Gn ah, he made a killing on Wall Street back in the day, and now he sells advice for reasonable prices. Do you need to know what to do to protect your assets? Wall Street Window, Dakar Hey, guys, I know you’re going to love Will Greg’s new book We just published at the Libertarian Institute. No quarter. The ravings of William Norman. Greg, It’s wonderful. It’s terrible. It’s devastating. Yul laugh. You’ll get angry. Yul Ms Him. You’ll be inspired to fight for freedom with Perfect Cover Art by Scott Alberts and a brilliant introduction by Will’s great friend and protege Thomas are bedlam. It is a fitting legacy for a brilliant man and nearly tireless defender of liberty. Get no quarter the ravings of William Norman Greg in paperback or kindle Awene Amazon dot com. Hey, tell me something. What year did you start working for the State Department? I joined the State Department in 1988. Ronald Reagan was president. I left in 2012 when Obama was present. So you joined. I was going to say you remember the core you joined right when the Cold War was ending and the Soviet Union was falling apart? Yeah, we were. We were We were there for it. It was It was, Ah, a heady time, as they like to say. I was actually in London working at that. I worked two years in London, Um, 1991 to 1993 which was a fascinating time because that’s things. You know, the wall went down in 89 but they took a while for things to really happen. And so we were being flooded with the Russian stuff, Uh, during those years in London because of London, as we all know, was always one of those magical crossover points, like Vienna or Prague, where the good guys and the bad guys saw Cem neutral territory. And so it was an amazing time. Um, we saw, for example, this great exodus of Russian scientists who poured through London, guys who worked on a lot of all sorts of nasty weapons programs and stuff who wanted to go to the United States or we’re moving to the United States, and we saw them pour through places like places like London. So no, it was a very exciting time. All right, so because what I want to ask you about is the threat of nuclear war now, because I have read things by people who seemed to be really responsible types. Um, for example of William Perry, who was Bill Clinton’s secretary of defense, saying that now is Azdi and he’s not alone. There are other people saying this to that. Now. The threat of nuclear war between the United States and Russia is as great or even greater than any time during the Cold War, the original Cold War. And that’s because I guess of NATO expansion so that the the buffer zone is now essentially non existent, but also the advent of hypersonic missiles and the shortening of warning times and all these things. What do you think? I can’t subscribe to that theory. Um, one of the things that was so pretty prominent during those years was how the threat of nuclear war had diminished because one of the great benefits was backing down all of the hair trigger stuff. Um, the hair trigger stuff, the idea that you might launch against me. So I better be ready to launch against you. And while you’re ready to launch against me because I’m Radia, lunch gets you. So I better be extra ready, don’t you know? And this kind of built up to the point where everybody had their their their finger on the trigger and was starting to apply it just enough pressure to get Goa the ball rolling. That all kind of tuned down. And in the aftermath of the Cold War, during those years when I was in the State Department, the stuff I was seeing and reading and being told was all built around accidents. Um, the great fear was that the Russians would lose control of nuclear weapons that they would end up in the hands of third parties, that the fact that people stop kind of caring the Russian military stop doing all the maintenance that they needed to do on the weapons meant that there was danger of accidents and things like that. Um, you know, you have to ask you way. I think we have a firm enough understanding that the use of a nuclear weapon between the United States and any other nuclear armed country means we’re racing thio Armageddon. We’re not that there’s not a stop point easily found in this game, and this was always what restrained during the Cold War, right was the idea that there was no halfway on this stuff, and I don’t know. I can’t think of a justification to explain why anyone would think there’s a halfway in it now and at the point where there were both sides acknowledge there’s no halfway. Once we start, we’re both going to be more or less obliterated. Um, that was an extremely powerful disincentive Tito war during the Cold War period, and I can’t imagine it doesn’t exist now. I also can’t imagine why anyone would I mean there’s plenty of reasons to keep the Ki building weapons. I mean, you know, that’s the industrial military complex. But to use them, it’s a different story. This is t just enlarge. And this is the whole idea about why there will never be a nuclear weapon holding Iran. The day that Iran has a first nuclear weapon will be the day that the United States and Israel obliterated, because the idea that they would that we could reach a Gn Armageddon situation in the Middle East is simply not acceptable. The there’s only 11 and 1/2 nuclear powers in the Middle East, that’s the United States and Israel, and that’s it. It will not be allowed to change. And I think the Iranians also know that, by the way. But that’s neither here nor there. There, there, there can’t be a nuclear standoff in the Middle East. It simply will not happen, and the United States and Israel will. Sure it won’t happen if you’re not sure if I’m right. Police guy, go back and look at what the Israelis did to the Ah Osirak reactor when Iraq was getting even vaguely close to ah developing something what they did to the Syrian reactor that supposedly the North Koreans help them build et cetera, et cetera. You know you’re not going to get there. The mistakes of the Cold War and that sense or learned, um, the Americans who wanted to destroy Russia’s nuclear capability. And whenever it was 1940 seven, Ayt whenever that was, you know, that argument has resonated with the United States and Israel in the Middle East. Yeah, well, in other words, that an LBJ should have preemptively attacked China before Maor was able to get his hands on Wone to Then you don’t know the problem with China is Israa was Russia. I mean, it wasn’t a Wone Awene Wone deal. You couldn’t have attacked China without bringing Awene nuclear war with Russia. The thing is, is that you can you could have I’m not advocating. But you could have attacked Russia at its nascent nuclear stage, and nobody else would have done a damn thing about it. Now, as far as the standoff between the US and China, the U. S. And Russia that hey, nobody wants to lose their capital city, they’d be crazy to use these nukes because then they’d be dead. I’m not so sure that precludes the possibility of war. I don’t know what the chances are of this kind of thing, but when you look especially at, sort of like we’ve been talking about this whole time, the level of just total nonsense and just lies and false premises and ridiculous points of view and regurgitated propaganda talking points about what is even going on here from the American side about containing and defending the world from Russian aggression and all his crap. That’s just not really what’s going on here. It all that America is attempting to force our world empire even Awene Russia and China who are powerful enough to be independent from us and so we can’t stand it. But if you tell anyone in Washington D. C. Come on, you guys know the Clintons and Bushies picked this fight caused this problem. They would deny it. No, it’s Awal Putin Ds fault. Harvard Boyz. What’s that? That’s ancient history. You know the warring for against Serbia? No, I don’t know what you’re talking about. The color coded revolutions. I’ve never heard of those. But what I do know is Russia, Russia Russia, Russia, Russia. And so that’s the kind of thing that makes me think that we can get into a war is that these people are like in a in a sense, insane, right? Like they’re thinking is so off base that I could expect anything to happen. Well, let me reassure you. And that is in a way that I think will resonate. And that is, war is not as profitable as preparing for war. Oh, I understand that. So if you look at it from the people who run Huu really run the United States, there is way more money to be made in making and maintaining nuclear weapons than in risking the use of them. And in that sense, if there’s if you needed nothing else to reassure you, maybe maybe hang on to that one that Ind. No, I just mean like, well, for example, I am. And I understand that, but say there’s a naval confrontation in the Baltic Sea or in the Black Sea, and then people start making ultimatums to each other. And then there’s another coup. Ind Belarus this time, or whatever it is, I mean, she can get out of hand No, but it happened constantly during the Cold War. The Russians in, you know, poke their their their, um, Armey into into countries all over the Middle East are all over Eastern Europe. The United States had its own little ah, forward front Awal through Central America that we were constantly bumping into each other with with submarines and surface ships and airplanes in all the coastal areas. There were little flare ups on the Korean board inter Caree, Ind board or whatever. It happened constantly during the Cold War, but it was in nobody’s interest, financial or otherwise, for it to get too far out of hand. End. You know, the military Zerg good at following orders. And the idea was that in each and every case, somebody back was told to back off and somebody backed off. And in that historical record is is should not be dismissed lightly. Yeah, I understand. Hey, who wants hydrogen fusion over their head? Nobody. Nadi Oo Grotius Tair Clinton’s but you know Okay, So here’s my last best point about this then. Which is what Pat Buchanan says about how we used to draw the line at the Elbe River and So when the Soviets crackdown in Hungary and Czechoslovakia and in Poland during Eisenhower, LBJ and Reagan, the American said Bayh, not my problem. Sorry, Charlie. You know, Karsi, I might have encouraged you to do it, but we’re not doing anything for you now, sucker. Um, but don’t you Soviets come in tow Western Germany? But that was seeding a hell of a lot to them, of course. Is the right kicked and screamed ever since Yalta. But point being that now we’ve drawn the line at Russia’s western border, and we have a military alliance with the Baltic states. And we keep working on overthrow Nas. Many governments we have to in Ukraine until the situation is is ah, you know, right for bringing them into NATO as well. And that this is the kind of thing where maybe the Russians would do something that we would severely disapprove of, but that I, Ge Eisenhower, would have let slide, but that now we can’t. Because now you’re turning your back on Article five of the NATO alliance and all of these things. Yes, yes, maybe. But I think you know this. Two conflicting arguments Atto. Ansar that But I think one or one of them will be the one that that that happens. And that is either that the Russians were smart enough to realize that the rules are a little different end. I understand that they have to participate within different rules or that that the U. S side will Nz recognize that the rules are made to be flexible. And you know, this little sliver of lot via that the Russians have always wanted their hands on or something is absolutely not worth nuclear war. Um, I don’t pretend to know enough about Ukraine to get into the nuts and bolts, but I can say that both sides have done an awful lot of weird, violent, nasty shit in Ukraine. And we’ve not gone to war over it, right? And and going back to the Cold War two when the CIA supported the Nazi right back then, too Well, I mean, that’s that’s a long tradition for us, But I mean, my point is is that the Russians let us do what we’re all the Dashty stuff we’ve been doing in the Ukraine. We’ve made a lot of noise about what the Russians have done in the Ukraine. But you know the troops we haven’t We haven’t dropped the paratroopers Ind to push them back or anything. The point is, is that I think both sides recognize the value of flexibility. Um, saber rattling and fist shaking serves everybody’s Neads, but actual war serves. Nobody’s Neads. And I think in the end of the day, as during the cold War of that will be what keeps the peace, possibly for all the wrong reasons or whatever, but I don’t think we’re going to war with Russia. Well, there you go, everybody. Humanity is going to survive after all the optimistic take from Pieter Van Buren today. And I’m sorry. You know what? I think you did respond, but I was still talking over here about when I mentioned Ellsberg Ds book the Doomsday Machine. Have you read that? Oh, yeah, of course. Of course. I have read everything Daniel Ellsberg has written. He’s a hero of mine. And one of the highlights of my whistle blowing career was when Dan reached out and introduced himself. And I got a chance to sit down and have dinner with him. Very cool. I had dinner with Dan Ellsberg, Hubble that that is very cool. I’ve got to interview him a few times and he blurred my book. So Yeah, that’s that’s not quite dinner, though. That’s great. But yes. Oh, that book will give you the heebie jeebies. And I guess he you know, for people who haven’t read it, he comes into power as the deputy assistant. Whatever in the White House overlooking nuclear stuff in the Jack Kennedy years. And he comes to find out that the plan is that if anybody shoots, anybody in Berlin were gonna nuke every city in Russia and China, and there is no other plan. And by the way, the war could start accidentally. About 150 different ways. And it was his job to go. Whoa, whoa, whoa. And try to rewrite all of this stuff and try to get the military to even admit what their plans were and all this Int Ind to try to make it Ah, nuclear doomsday machine a little bit safer to operate. Um, but then, you know, he kind of ends it with I am Bin there in a long time. I don’t know how they do it now and sea. I’m a subscriber to what? I’m I think I’m gonna start calling the George W. Bush Theory of History, where all of our presidents are nothing but George W. Bush. Winston Churchill. Nothing but George W. Bush. All of these guys are nothing but a bunch. I mean, look at the you would think Eisenhower would have been wise, but every bit of our mess in the Middle East is because of him and and his predecessors and successors. But you know what I mean? With that 53 coup in Iran and the aftermath and all of these things And so, um, I could see him screwing up. I could see him getting us all killed accidentally. Honestly, you know, possibility of accidents happening remains. This has been my theory on the Koreas, by the way. I’m just to throw this in. So everybody ca Gn tell me I’m right as as we as we watch the last sunset it is. Never mind that we’re gonna have a nuclear war with North Korea. I’m deathly afraid. Ofra. Chernobyl, like level accident in North Korea. That triggers the next thing. Um, that’s a good point. Yanover Yongbyong reactor. I’m sure you do know was built by the Soviets and is run off of pretty highly and rich stuff or certainly can be. It used to be run off. Even weapons grade uranium was fueling it back then. It’s harder than it is now. Exactly what Bhd is a big thing in North Korea. And so, no, my my great fear there is, isn’t Aksa Menagh Chernobyl level accident that causes the next thing whether that next thing would be, for example, the Chinese to intercede or a massive refugee flow into the South or some kind of military coup. Ibn pick. Pick your favorite nightmare. But those kind of things are far more concern to me because they lack logic. Atto The end of the day Whatever you want to say about Putin, whoever is the next Russian leader. These air still people that are trying to think these things through, albeit in a childish, ridiculously stupid way. But there’s still a thinking process that means there’s still a chance to retain her seat. But when you’re talking about accidents that trigger spontaneous reactions, there is no logic there. It’s just people running, and that’s the most dangerous situation of Awal of all time, right? Yeah. You know, there was that time they the airforce accidentally dropped a thermonuclear Gn North Carolina and eight out of nine safeties failed. I think they say right, you gotta wonder if that h bomb had gone off. Would they have been able to admit that it was an accident? Or they would have had to say it was an attack and respond as though it was an attack, you know? Yeah. So the accidents I think are right now would would worry me far more than Eni Williamsport Aires thoughts that the Russians are gonna launch a nuclear war or whatever. Yeah, well, Sanju I know it sounds like you got to go. But now we’re talking about Korea. So I want to know what’s your take on the latest coming out of those negotiations there. The latest mike by taking is the same take that. I’ve been offering Foer for two years now. There is room to negotiate. Always, and the United States may or may not have the skill and we may or may not give our diplomats the time in space they need. North Korea is an ultimately in an untenable position. They are going to have to engage with the world at some level, some point in order to to to survive and and to thrive. I think Kim Jong un understands that. I think he wants to find a way to engage with the world. He will not do that without the umbrella of nuclear weapons. He has seen far too many examples across the Middle East of what the United States is capable of doing to a country it doesn’t like that can’t defend itself. And the United States will I face the choice of engaging with a nuclear armed North Korea as a starting point, or we will continue to just kind of noodle along as we have for the past 75. Some years, Um, I am in favor of engaging with the nuclear North Korea of accepting that they will maintain a nuclear deterrent at in the initial stages of their re entry into the world, and I am adamant that their re entry in the world will ultimately result in their backing off of that nuclear deterrent. But we’re talking about decades of careful diplomacy here, Um, American Media, which is insistent that everything Trump does is wrong is not going to to move the needle on this in any way. And my hope is that some resolution or some positive steps Cannes continue to occur before Ah, an accident occurs. Kim Jong Un is a young man, but life spans in North Korea. Cannes could be cut short fairly quickly, and I I don’t know that there’ll be another up opportunity following him. I don’t know who would possibly succeed him could be a military coup, at which point there’s no more negotiations. Kim, I think ca Gn be diplomatically I don’t want to say manipulated, positioned into seeing himself as his store as a historical figure, the dung Shaoping of his nation, the man who preserved North Koreas sovereignty and what they want to call their culture while at the same time moving it into the modern world. If you had skillful diplomacy that gave him that opportunity to make himself that historical figure, I think there would be room to negotiate. I don’t know that the United States has ever been capable of that subtlety. I think in the current circumstances, between Trump’s sort of need for short term things and the American Popular population Ind Media’s desire to see him fail at every step. Um, I don’t think this trump is is capable. Ah, second term Trump. I’m not sure about that either. Eni of the Democrats currently, that would win in 2020 Natta chance at all. I think they would instantly back burner North Korea and we’d go back to just nothing. I think there is a window. Um, I’m seeing it closing now. And it’s a shame, I think, a year ago, year and 1/2 ago we history will say that way blew it. We missed a real chance to, ah, break down some of these barriers that could have led in the future to, ah, Non nuclear North Korea Doocy. Yeah, well, you know the one little piece of good news from this week is that Stephen be Guen? However you say it. The State Department negotiator on this who had previously said what you said that Hey, we’ve got to recognize that denuclearization would be nice, but it’s not first on the list we got to get, you know it’s okay. Thio, go ahead and make peace first and work out. Denuclearization later. Come on the only realistic approach here. And then he was overwritten on that Lider. Anyway, My point was that he was offered. Or at least they were talking about moving him to the Russia job, ambassador to Russia to replace Huntsman. And he declined it, even though apparently speaks Russian and is a great Russia expert. And he decided, No. I want to stay working on the North Korea case. Or maybe he had a a conversation with Pompeii like that or something, and he’s staying, so you know, it’s not. It’s not unthinkable, even in the current State Department. You know, he said that at a speech, and then was obviously overridden. But, like you’re saying is, it’s so obvious. It’s the only thing. And, you know, I don’t know if if Trump fails to do this, if only for political reasons. So he has something to claim as a victory. Um, then he’s worse than I thought, because he could do it himself. He didn’t need the Congress to ratify anything. He could just start lifting sanctions and normalizing relations in ways that you know can mean real progress toward normalization of relations. Sign a peace treaty to end the war from 1950 through 53 there. Yeah, you know it runs head on into the Siri’s or problems. Trump seems to want a big splash that he ca Gn use for the kelp Id Minh 2020. The rest of America seems to be rooting for failure so that in addition to the recession that they can’t wait to happen. They ca Nz a. Something else went wrong. Um, and the clock is running in North Korea. You know, we we like to think of Kim Ah and other dictators as thes Ghad kings that make decrees. And but Kim functions like every every so called dictator Kim functions inside of a system. Now he doesn’t have Nancy Pelosi and Deo see, but he has power centers in his country, economic power centers, military power centers, other political power centers that he has to juggle. And he has to keep on board and those internal windows open and close, the same as they do in the United States. They’re not as obvious to us, and they’re not is extreme. But Kim, on his own can’t just do this and he can do certain things but he can’t do everything. And skillful diplomacy takes that all into account. I’m sorry to say that. I just don’t see Pompeii. Oh, I wish there was somebody there that was a little bit Maura of a diplomat. I think Pompeii Neo Cees himself. As you know, Trump’s emissary to the State Department and Hmmmmm or keeping it all under control than than actually driving these issues. It would be nice in a second trump term or ah, maybe if Pompeii Oo quits sooner than that, Atto have someone there who is willing to play Amore active role and be a secretary of state. Maybe take this issue Awene Nas as their signature issue with Trump’s backing, Um, I mean, the president could only do so many things. He’s only one person, and there’s so much head water on this issue that it would be nice to get somebody. Huu isn’t named Trump kind out in front of it in hopes that the media and Democrats would would leave him alone long enough to try to get something done. Yeah, it’s too bad that he just, you know, uh, he has a few good instincts. A lot of them are really bad, but some of them are not so bad. Like, let’s get along with Russia and let’s make peace with Korea and maybe pull our troops out of Syria and a couple of things. But he appointed Awal Hawks to serve him in all the most powerful positions, so he can’t permit any of that stuff. All they do is argue with him all day long, and he gives in over and over again because he didn’t have anyone to stand by his side and say, No, you guys, he’s right. You know, Mr President makes a great point here. It’s it’s, you know, and his his instincts, they’re just that right there, hardly informed at all. So he he can’t win in an actual discussion or argument with anybody about stuff, you know, They tell him, Boy, if we leave Syria, Iran will take over and he goes, Oh, no, really, boy, I better not do that. Then and then that’s it. And we get kind of goofy partial solutions where we pull most of the troops out of Syria. But we don’t pull all of the troops out of Syria. Um, and she’s like, Okay, all right? Yeah. All right, well, but there’s not gonna be a nuclear war, so that’s good. Yep, we’re we’re safe on that. So, uh, yeah. Pay your credit card bills, folks, Student loans. You’re still gonna be on the hook for that story. But still, don’t whitewash the Hiroshima bombing. That’s the piece at the American Conservative magazine, the American conservative dot com. Thanks. Thank you. Peter. Graeme Beirt Neo Oo. Also check out we meant well, is his great website. All right, y’all. Thanks. Find me at Libertarian Institute dot or Ge at scott Kortan dot or Ge antiwar dot com and reddit dot com slash scott Horton Show. Oh, yeah. And read my book Fool’s Errand Timed and the War in Afghanistan at Fool’s errand dot us.

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The Intercept’s Trevor Aaronson joins the show to talk about the travesty of justice in the trial of Hamid Hayat, who has finally been released after nearly 15 years in prison. Hayat was an alleged terrorist, convicted based on a coerced confession he gave to FBI agents under duress, as well as recordings from his conversations with an FBI informant who had pretended to befriend Hayat’s family. Hayat is just one of many such cases of U.S. government entrapment, which make up the majority of supposed terrorism prosecutions.

Discussed on the show:

• “Reporters Questioned His Terror Prosecution. Now He’s Free.” (The Intercept)
• “The Confession Tapes” (Netflix)
• “Lodi Man Describes Terrorist Training” (LA Times)
• “US-led coalition ‘killed 1,600 civilians’ in Syria’s Raqqa” (Al Jazeera)

Trevor Aaronson is a contributing writer for The Intercept and executive director of the nonprofit Florida Center for Investigative Reporting. He is the author of The Terror Factory: Inside the FBI’s Manufactured War on Terrorism. Find him on Twitter @trevoraaronson.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; Washinton Babylon; Liberty Under Attack Publications; Listen and Think Audio; TheBumperSticker.com; and LibertyStickers.com.

Donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal, or Bitcoin: 1KGye7S3pk7XXJT6TzrbFephGDbdhYznTa.Audio Player

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Following is an auto-generated transcript of the episode.

sorry I’m late. I had to stop by the wax museum again and give the finger that FDR We know Al Qaeda Zawahiri is supporting the opposition in Syria. Are we supporting Al Qaeda in Syria? It’s a proud day for America. Ghad, We’ve kicked Vietnam syndrome once and for all. Thank you Very. I say it. I see it again. Bin These women are trying to simply deny things that just about everybody else except as fact Saud died way Kila, Naor Minh Khaleeq Illing Maale way Bol Cnet like, say, I’m Ain Bin Say it. Say it three times the meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world. Then that’s going to be an invasion Arak hard. You guys on the line. I’ve got Trevor Aronson from the intercept and author of the great book The Terror Factory, which, of course, is a reference to the FBI. Welcome back to the show. How you doing, Trevor? Good God. Thanks for having me. Eso happy to talk to you again and on such an important and positive occasion. Hama Id Hyatt from the big fake Lodi, California terrorism case of I think 2005 has finally been freed from prison. Do tell. Yeah, after after nearly nearly 15 years in prison, my Hama high it was released after US magistrate judge held an evidentiary hearing, realized that the case was highly problematic and recommended Itsu returning, which, ultimately the presiding judge seven months later agreed to and high. It was released earlier this month. Um, it’s a huge thing in the sense that you know, we’ve had more than 800 defendants convicted Awene international terrorism related charges since 9 11 lot of these cases were quite problematic and high. It is really the first that we’ve seen, where we have a full overturning and ultimately released on De no. I think it’s worth noting as I did in the story that, you know, much of this probably wouldn’t have happened were it not for the fact that you know media organizations, you know, I spent 15 years questioning and finding more and more about this case that that was problematic. And in the end, the evidence that the magistrate judge used in recommending Itsu returning, you know, would have been possible in Alexei Kode were it not for this kind of media scrutiny you know. So it’s certainly a travesty of justice that this guy’s Bin nearly 15 years in prison. But, you know, at least you know, the the small comfort is that justice was served even if it took a very long time. Yeah, well, let that be a lesson to young people in the audience to that. If people don’t do the work, the work doesn’t get done. A simple is that people like Trevor and people at the A, C. O. U. And writers for the L A. Times and other people who have been interested in this and decided for their own reasons to make this their issue. As you say, they’re the ones who made this happen. Natta matter of sharing the credit for boasting purposes or whatever, but in, you know, to show that it actually takes people getting up in the morning and making sure that they’re gonna do their part to free this guy or else it just doesn’t happen. He’s still sitting in this cell. Yeah, you know, I mean, I think so many of these terrorism prosecutions after 9 11 in the kind of hell to find, you know, the so called sleeper cells after 9 11 You know, we’re hugely problematic and quite Abusada, you know, Ind highest cage. You know, they found this informant who was working at a fast food restaurant, you know, making $7 an hour. And over the next couple of years, they Haithem nearly $300,000. And he’s the one that always told the FBI that high it was involved in terrorism. They had no had no evidence to support that. And then ultimately, what the FBI did was they interrogated him until a three o’clock in the morning, and he’s complaining that his head hurts. And they kept telling them, Hey, we know you went to the training camp. We know you went to the training camp and he finally just told them what whatever he needed to tell them to get out of that room, you know, not realizing that he was kind of built, you know, digging his own grave. And, you know, ultimately, he was convicted on that really problematic and coerced confession. And you know what came out of the evidentiary hearing and what came out ultimately through the reporting on this case was you know, witnesses were found in Pakistan. Huu Huu basically said, Yeah, he was in Pakistan. But, you know, you know, he just played video games that soccer the whole time we saw him every day. There’s no way he went to a training camp. And, you know, when even in the confession he gave the FBI, you couldn’t even really say where the Camp Wasat. At one point, he said it was Afghanistan. Another time, he said it was Pakistan. During the trial, the government, you know, went so far show satellite images that said, Hey, here’s the camp he went thio. But then it turned out there was an internal memo inside the government where they were talking about how the intelligence analyst couldn’t agree on which can’t be went to. So, you know, the prosecutors knew there was no consensus about what Kampeas went to, and yet they still presented to the jury as if there were a zit Wasat. And, you know, ultimately that’s you know how he was convicted Itsu. It’s really shameful. It’s a 14 years in prison for himto finally finally get free. And now I guess someone mentioned in the Reddit Room that his case is highlighted in Anu Netflix documentary Siri’s all right It is. I wasn’t I wasn’t familiar with it. That would be Neads Mea Gidi t hear more about that? There was something called the confession tapes. It’s a whole series about bad confessions, and apparently his is one of them. Oh, I have heard of this show. I didn’t realise Hijaz case within that. That’s really interesting. Yeah, yeah, even seen it. But I guess in that being too You know what? They might also talk about his father’s confession, too, because they’re really two confessions Hama High. It gave Wone and at the same time Hi. Hi. It was giving Wone. They took his father into an interrogation room and basically were like, you know, hey, your son, he confessed attending this training camp. You know, you you know, you probably visited him, and at first he was saying, No, I didn’t get any training camp. And then they said, Well, you know, if you went to visit this camp, it wouldn’t really be much different than like a You know, a parent in the United States doing a college campus visit further child. And at that point, Boomer, his father, you know, told them the stands. People story where, you know, there were, like, Wone 1000 terrorists or jihad. He’s dressed in a mask like ninja turtles with his term and that they were attacking with swords. These dummies that were made to look like George W. Bush and Colin Powell and Rumsfeld. And, um, you know, of course, immediately after he recanted and, you know, said, kind of rather tellingly that, you know, he based his descriptions on the movie the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which he bought three Sahili. It was clear from his confession that he was basing it on this ridiculous movie Ons. So both of those confessions were ultimately kind of coerced by the government, you know, in large part because Hama did and his father weren’t particularly savvy. Uh, you know, we’re Caucasus Kvit sophisticated about the criminal process and the FBI agents. We’re really going into these Cees interrogation firmly believing that these guys were involved in terrorism when in fact, they wanted Awal Well, okay, so I don’t wantto overstate this or whatever, but it’s really Wone continuum kind of a thing here, I think. And it’s the proof that with so many of these false confessions that torture does work and this is very light. No touch torture. Don’t get me wrong, but a couple of big fat, stinky cops in a small room with a bright hot light for hours and hours and hours demanding that you just admit this or just admit that and then with a bunch of promises that then we’ll let you go. Then you can go home. Then you can see your mom. Then you can have a drink of water. Then everything will be okay again. It’s really just out of 1984 where O’Brien is Winston Smith’s torturer. But he also administers the dose of morphine and says, See, I’m your big brother. I love you. I’m taking care of you. I’m good cop and bad cop at the same time, and what they do is they just shorten people’s time preference down, too. Never mind what happens in court later, and whether I’m facing 35 years or whatever it is. I want out of this room right now, and I’m willing to say whatever they want me to say to get out of this room right now, they promise me as a cold sprite. Yeah, absolutely. And that’s what happened in Hamoud case. That’s what happens in a lot of cases. I mean, you know, that’s what I always tell my friends. And, you know, I tell my wife and my daughter like, you know, even if you get pulled over by the cops, you know, for a traffic violation, you know, don’t volunteer anything you know, just, you know, tell them what they need to know, you know? And I think, like, you know, even if you didn’t get involved in a crime, there’s no upside allowing the Copt to kind of grill you and interrogate you and asking these questions. I mean, you know, the first thing Hama Id should have said and it probably would have prevented his prosecution was, you know, find Mea lawyer, Please. I’m not talking, right. And, you know, they could have him wait there all he wants, but they’re not gonna grill him and, you know, keep him up till 3 a.m. With the questions the way they did on Ge. I think that that is kind of the abusive side of law enforcement. We see that in a lot of cases, especially among people who just black the sophistication about how the process works, where the cops get him in there and they say things to him and they get you know, as you said, they’ll like, you know, you know, Are you thirsty? Like, Well, you, could you just tell us what we want? We’ll get you a drink You know, there’s also it’s also important to realize that you know, it’s a lie. It is a felony offense to lie to an FBI agent. You know, if he asked you, Have you ever been to Pakistan? And you say no and you really have potentially You could be process at the same time. It’s not a felony offense there. It’s not a defence at all for an FBI agent, Alija De you. So the FBI agent could say, Hey, your partner over there in the other room, he said, You did it. Time for you to confess, right? Uh, Eni. That may have not happened, but often that was used in in interrogation. And so the FBI and most law enforcement has this obscene advantage in these kind of settings where, you know, I think people who are unsophisticated ultimately end up saying things that that bury them. And that was definitely case Ind Hama Hyatt prosecution where, you know, the, you know, the single piece of evidence they really had was his confession. And, you know, I think in a lot of cases Juries are willing to believe confessions. I think they’re really they’re not skeptical. I think they should be. And I think there’s a feeling among Juries that you know, Hey, these FBI guys like they’re they’re they’re the white house. There’s a good guys, you know? They’re working on our side and for, you know, for the side of justice. You know, that isn’t always the case. And it certainly wasn’t the case in Hi, it’s prosecution. Hey, guys. Scott here, I got some books you should read. The War State by Mike Swanson A great history of early Cold War. No, Dev, No ops, No. I t by Hussein Badi Aq Chessani How to run your computer business like a good libertarian. Oh, yeah, And don’t forget fool’s errand. Time to end the war in Afghanistan by me. Hey, y’all, Here’s the thing. Donate $100 to the Scott Kortan show and you can get a Q R Kode Commodity disc as my gift to you. It’s a one ounce silver disc with a Q R code on the back. You take a picture of with your phone, and it gives you the instant spot price and lets you know what that silver that ounce of silver is worth on the market in Federal Reserve notes in real time. It’s the future of currency in the past, too. Commodity discs dot com or just go to scott horton dot or Ge slash Donate. Hey, guys, you know you probably need a new website a lot of people do. What you need to do then, is Goa to expand designs dot com, the great Harley Abbott and his team over at expand designs dot com. They’ll hook you up with a great new website for 2019 and in fact, what you really should do. His type Ind expand designs dot com slash scott, and you’ll save $500 Well, and so this is the thing about it, too, and this is one that’s always really stood out among all of the bogus prosecutions, and there’s been so many of them. Uh, and there’s a lot that I can’t just think of off the top of my head. But there’s a solid dozen or more than I can. But in this one, he actually was never really entrapped into doing anything. He didn’t accidentally put his fingerprints. Awene. Cem guns. He didn’t saw off Eni barrels. He didn’t attempt to detonate Eni fake explosives. He never really did anything other than the way I remember. There was a phone call. We’re the informant, and I want to talk more about the foreman in a minute or asking more about the informative Minh. But the informant, Sicily, just browbeat him on the phone that like, Come on, say you love Osamas. You love me, don’t you? You promise we’re friends, and you have to say, Just say you love Osamas. And then this confession, essentially that said that he had been to a camp. But other than that, that was it, right? Material support based on that 25 years or what am I missing? Yeah, that’s pretty much the case, you know? I mean, you know well, a lot of these terrorism thing operations ultimately bring people to the point where they have access to a fake bomb. That, of course, the FBI provided. And the case ends when they try to detonate that bomb. So the FBI has a very clear, you know, this is what he did. And this is why we’re prosecuting him in Hama Gn highest case. Uh, you know, the FBI really didn’t have any proof that he attended a terrorist training camp, other than the conversation he had with the informant where he was basically saying he was going to do that and the conversations that issued the interrogation and confession that he gave to the FBI and in the informant. You know what, this guy who was making tons of money from the FBI and and really had questions about, you know, there were clear questions about his credibility. You know, the reason the FBI came toe enroll him as an informant was that they had gotten a tip that, you know, post 9 11 he was living in Oregon and there were questions about, like, whether he was involved in, you know, some sort of terrorism, and they looked in that claim and it turned out he wasn’t the guy They were looking for. But then when the FBI was there, he was like, Hey, you know, I have some information about Ayn Minh else. Watery. The Al Qaeda number two are Hama Bin Ladens deputy. And so the FBI became very interested. He gave them what information he had, and it turned out it was bogus. You know, the the prosecutors later claimed it was just a case of mistaken identity. You know, a more skeptical version of that might be that he was just feeding them information in the hopes of getting some money. But it works because then the FBI, in this post 9 11 rushed Atto, Sino informants bring him on board. He ends up going to Lodi and getting involved in a relationship or friendship with Hama Id and his father. And over the course of months, you know, like common In these cases, the target of the investigation ends up kind of having this kind of little brother relationship with the informant and the informants in Hama Ds. Case got him on the phone when he was in Pakistan. It was like you’re going right, like, you know, you support a Hama Gilad, and will you you’re going to the training camp and on the phone. You know Hamadeh like, Yeah, yeah, I’m going, I’m going. And it turns out he was just saying that, you know, just kind of satisfy what the informant was wanting him to say with no real intention of going. And so then ultimately, when he returns to the United States, the FBI is working from this information that he had given the informant that he planned to go, and then they interrogate him and get this confession. Well, it turns out we could say definitively nearly 15 years later that you know what he was telling the informant was just crap. He was just telling the informant what he thought the informant wanted to hear. And then ultimately, the confession he mixes his bogus that he was just willing to tell the fbi anything to get out of that room. And you know that that’s what the case was based on. And so, you know, in the spectrum of post 9 11 terrorism cases, you know, this was on the very far side of egregious because, you know, at least in these entrapment cases, you can point to the fact that the guy did do this, right? He did have this fake bomb and he tried to detonate Ind Hamadeh Ioffe case. You know, the government really couldn’t even prove that that he attended this camp and then, you know, when they tried to present to the jury, you know, they ultimately presented pictures of this camp that internally, it turns out, you know, there was even questions of whether that was the real camp, but that’s not something they disclosed the jury at the time. Now refresh my memory. His grandfather’s house in Pakistan that was in Karachi, remember? I believe it was just outside Karaki because it was a very populated area. I have to look up the city, unfortunately, but they will have in front of me. But one of the issues that came up in one of the questions of the case, But it was really urban area. And you know, when he was after that described where one of the terrorist training camps Wasat he described it as being in this, like Fourest Id encampment in the city. Which is ridiculous because there is no way this kind of urban jungle with it would accommodate something like that. And so, you know, there were clear signs that the FBI should have been like, What is this guy talking about? Like, how can there be a camp in this in the city, this air in this more urban area? Andrei, you know, yet, like, there was this kind of suspension of disbelief among the FBI, You know, whether it’s, you know, they want to prosecute this guy and put him in jail, or they just really were kind of true believers that they just thought like, Yeah, this guy’s definitely involved in terrorism. Yeah, well, you know, it’s been a few years now. I’m pretty sure you linked to this L a Times story in your peace. Maybe I just Googled it up. But there’s a l A Times story all about this a few years back, um, that, I guess centered around a former FBI agent who himself saw the confession video and said, This is just a travesty and join the fight on the side of the lawyers here. Um, but nowadays you can’t see the video anymore. But when the L. A Times first published that story, they had the video from the confession. I don’t know the whole thing, but clips of it anyway. And so I didn’t get a chance to check the Netflix thing to see whether they, um, included this stuff or not. And so I am just going essentially by memory. But I had kind of retold the story a couple of times. So I remember it pretty well that you’re part of it Was the FBI agent essentially just leading the kid to say Goa grandfather’s house. It’s in Karachi, Khatt, which is essentially, like the most innocent place you could be in Pakistan, right. Are you sure it wasn’t Int Islamabad? Oh, uh, yeah, sure. Ihsan Islamabad. I don’t know. Yeah, my grandfather’s house. Ihsan Islamabad. And then all of a sudden, a couple of clicks later. And now it’s in Kandahar, right? It’s outside of Kandahar city in the Kandahar province, in Afghanistan, right with Taliban country, you know? Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah, it’s in. It’s in Kandahar, if you say so. That’s why I was training without Kadir Ind Cannes. Jowhar? Yeah, and then And this is support where people are gonna think I’m lying. But the point is that that this is the FBI who came up with this stuff. They say they He says that the training camp is in the basement. That’s how they hide. It is they have an Al Qaeda training camp in his grandfather’s basement. And then So the cop says to him, and what do they do down there? And he holds his hands like he’s pantomime ing holding a stick, right? Like if you were gonna finish his sentence for him, you might suggest Trevor that Oo they like practise stick fighting or something like that. But the the FBI agent says, Pull vaulting. They’re practicing pole vaulting, and the kid says, Yeah, that’s right. Al Qaeda terrorists are practicing pull vaulting in my grandfather’s basement in Kandahar. Take me away sexually, and the FBI Injun is like, Oh, yeah, where you’re going to the penitentiary now, buddy. And you know, I don’t know what to think. That I’m supposed to believe that the f b I agent believed that that this is I thought you had to have ah ah, Non floor Id Ayt Id I Q of at least 100 and something to be an FBI agent. No, I mean this is complete nonsense. And it was so transparent and ridiculous to sit there and watch that. Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, I think the that you’re talking about is a former FBI agent named James Wedeck on Ge. He was He was brought in fairly early, I think, by the defense lawyers after the conviction that Atto look at the confession tape. And, you know, he had been a supervisory agent. He works for the FBI for more than 20 years, and his first instinct was, Well, yeah, that this this confession is is bogus that you clearly Bin Goward clearly Bin off leading questions on Goa. It was highly probable, problematic. And and you’re right. I mean, you know what logical FBI agent would really think that a bunch of Al Qaeda terrorists are training underground, you know, put using and in the tax, they do mention pole vaulting in the text of that l a Times article so people can find that even if you can’t see video of that, Yeah, I mean, and that’s part of what’s interesting. Last confession isn’t it really is all over the place because, you know, as the FBI is giving him cues of what they’re interested in. He’s just kind of like following along, right? I mean, I included a part of the interrogation in the story with her. You know, they asked him, like, you know, three Emmy thing is head is hurting, and they’re like, they’re like, Well, we we really wanted you to know, like we need to know what? What? They told you to target what you’re gonna attack, right? Like so he obviously being told, like, yet provide them something. So he’s like, they Elmi Goa Khattak building. Like, what kind of building? And it’s his response is like a big building and other things like that. Like what else? Like what he says, like store. And like, what kind of stores? Like food stores, right? It’s just, like kind of going with whatever they’re saying. Just adding the most simple adjective, every everything that they want on Goa It it did seem pretty clear that this guy was just telling them, you know, whatever they wanted, but scary enough like, you know, it resulted in a conviction, right? A jury convicted this guy and he got sentenced 24 years in prison. Originally, Manan something else all right, So let’s go back to the dad’s confession a little bit. This is I know much less about this part of the story here, but you you mentioned before and it’s in the article about how they had told him. Listen, if you did go and see your son at this camp, that’s essentially like if you were just visiting him at college. In other words, they were leading him to believe that if you agreed to this narrative that this doesn’t implicate you in any crimes. We would consider this to be innocent behavior, but we’re just trying to get confirmation from you of what we know of this story. But I wonder whether there was a carrot or stick kind of thing There were they threatening his son with a worst charge Or or maybe promising Cem leniency for the sun. If the father would just go along with this part of the narrative or do you know so how they let rumor was that they basically they claim they told Huu Mirwais, Look, your son, you know, is in the other room, and he confessed attending this training camp, and, you know, we don’t think this is a big deal because I’m summarizing their words. You know, in Pakistan it’s part of your culture. Yugo to these training camps. And, you know, I’m sure the parents go and visit the kids at the training camps, and, you know, really not a big deal would be like, you know, if you went to visit him, it would be like, you know, someone here visiting there, their kid at college to check out the campus. And they really just minimized humor, the significance of what had happened. And, you know, we’re basically framed that, like, you know, we think maybe something happened here, But if you can explain it, we could make this all go away. And so at first, Aamer, you know that he didn’t attend the camp, He didn’t know anything about the camp. Um, and then finally, he ends up telling them what they want, and you know what he did. What he said to them is that you know, he you know, there was this large camp and there were these, like, 1000 fighters. And he used the term like warm ass like ninja turtles and and really describe it, like over the top setting Foer this camp and, um, you know, a few days later he recanted and says, Like I said, I didn’t. You know, I made all of this up because that’s what the FBI wanted me to say. And, you know, ironically, the FBI ultimately, um, you know, acknowledged through the Department of Justice that they realized they agreed he made it all up because they charged him with making false statements to the FBI, and he ended up pleading guilty. And I think he served a year or two in prison as a result on Goa and those with false statements. Was him agreeing to their narrative? Exactly. Exactly. And again, this is like another good cautionary tale. Foer like dealing with the FBI, right? Like again, You can lie to you. But if you lie to them, you know, you’re facing a possible felony charge. And so they browse Bayh, browbeat him into saying I pay. You attended this training camp. There you are. You visited this training camp and then when he finally like Okay, Okay, I visited it. And here’s this like description of it. I’m just gonna make up for you. They charge him with a felony of lying to the FBI. Because, in fact, he did lie to the FBI. I mean, under the law, he was guilty. He did lie, but, you know, in in a way that the f b I kind of like Oo worst from him and again, like I mentioned earlier, Like, you know, it really doesn’t benefit Eni defendant whether you’re innocent or guilty to talk to the FBI for this exact reason. You know, Atty humor just said I have nothing to say to you guys call me a lawyer. They would have had any case against, right? I mean, it was entirely prosecutable because he lied during interrogations, charging him with the false confession that they forced him into. I mean, that’s like Sandra Bland pulls over for the cop, and then he pulls her over for not using her turn signal when she pulled over for him. What the hell? Yeah, you know, But that’s that’s what the FBI does mean. Lying to the FBI is among the more commonly filed charges. You saw this kind of commonly in the in the Moler. Prosecution’s right. Like almost everybody charged with charged with, you know, charges, including lines of the FBI. And it’s a way of just kind of either, you know, kind of like throwing one more charge at someone or, you know, in a case like Huu Aamer someone else. But if they’re not able to charge her with anything else, so they’ll charge based on that, perhaps with the hope that you know they’ll cut a deal and say, OK, I don’t want to go to jail, but I’ll give you information on on such and such and other cases, it’s just pure, in my view, like retribution. You know, the FBI pissed this guy, you know, don’t pull their chain with this kind of ridiculous description of a terrorism training site and kind of embarrassed them. And so they’re like, Screw you, man. We’re gonna file, you know, filing lines. The FBI charges. I don’t think, you know, it might be unfair to kind of say it so bluntly, but that’s how I kind of you some of these prosecutions sometimes, Yeah, absolutely. Of course. Uh, that’s exactly how they are. And this is the problem, right? Is like you’re talking about. Hey, man, you just shouldn’t talk to the cops get a lawyer and let your lawyer handle it. That’s his job kind of thing. Um, it’s because you have this weird cross between them being human beings, like literally standing there in clothes and everything, but at the same time, they’re not really humans. They’re agents of the state. And so that means that your interactions with them are an entirely different set of rules for anyone else. So I saw a defense attorney one time say that. Look, for example, whenever you’re talking with anyone else, you try to always give us much credence to what they’re saying is you can just being polite. That’s straight out of Dale. Carnegie howto win friends and influence people, you know. So Seri says to you, Well, did you ever think about doing this or doing that? Well, I don’t know. I might have. You know that. You know, you go ahead, you try to be agreeable, but that’s a really that’s a reason why you should not talk to cops because you’re gonna fall into the habit of being a decent and kind person. But in fact, what you’re doing is you’re giving them rope to hang yourself with whether you again, whether you actually did anything or not. And it turns out they don’t really care if you did anything or not. They have their own incentives for putting you in prison. I have nothing to do with justice whatsoever. This isn’t the Perry Mason show. Yeah. LA Force, in many ways, is a hammer looking for a nail, right? And so, you know, if you kind of are interviewed by the FBI are other law enforcement agents for any reason. And, you know, if you got in trouble, you know, whether it was drugs or you’ve got, like, mental illness issues, Or maybe you weren’t in trouble at all. You haven’t done anything. You know, the FBI is not looking there to help you right there. Not like if you’ve got drug problems, they’re not looking to help you get, you know, get straight. If you’ve got, you know, kind of domestic violence issues the problems at home. They’re not there to sort that out right there, there to figure out if you committed a crime. And if you did, they’re gonna arrest you, right? There is not a social service agency. And so the idea that, like you should provide them with any information. You know, it is incredibly risky because the only purpose for that information is to use it against you on. So there’s absolutely no upside whatever to talk to the law enforcement Awal. And I think you know, I think that’s something Americans really don’t know enough about Andar familiar with with, You know, it’s kind of like, you know, we talked a long Forsa you say you don’t want, you know, they talk like Oo Badi hiding. It’s like, Well, you have every right not to incriminate yourself provide information needed, you know, And I don’t I don’t do drugs, for example, and I’ll drive around with drugs in my car. But if a law enforcement agent stopped me for a traffic issue and was like, Hey, can we search your car? I have nothing to hide, but I’m not gonna let him do it right. You need probable cause like you get just like search my car and, um, you know, and I think that’s you know, I think that, like, you know, if anything, Huu Hama highest cases is a really kind of extreme example of how this could go bad for you, you know, you know, end up volunteering information to federal law enforcer in any law enforcement agency, because Ultima they built the case, You know, almost entirely on what he told them. Yeah, and, hey, you know what? Hypothetical example. There’s some very serious crime or innocent lives at risk, and you have information that they really do need to know. It’s so bad that it’s better to be a rat that not even and I don’t mean turning in your friends on a drug charge or something. But I mean, something really bad is gonna happen. Call a lawyer and have the lawyer call them. You still don’t need to talk to them. That’s what lawyers are. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, if you do want to report a crime like you say, like, hey, I just saw three guys run into a bank with a bunch of guns, you know, call 911 and just leave it at that, you know? You know, examples where, like if the cops come to you and ask you questions about things you’ve done, I mean, generally, that’s not a good place for for anyone. Atto. Bobi, you know. And that highest cases Cravatts great example of how wrong that Bin Goa, you know? I mean, it’s one thing to be cooperative with law enforcement and reporting criminal activity that may be happening. Your neighborhood. It’s another to be cooperative with them when they’re clearly investigating you. And if they’re asking you questions about what you did and where you’ve been, I mean, they’re, you know, make no mistake there. They’re investigating you. Yeah. All right. Now, um, back to the specifics of this case again here real quick. Ah, a couple of important points here, I think. First of all, um, the informant here just infiltrated this family. This father and son. There was no group, right. There was no politics. He just found a father and son and made himself kind of. And this happens. People are familiar with this, like Fonzie or whatever, right? Like the adopted son he calls the dad dad. And then he treats the sun like it’s, you know, like he’s big brothers and Big Sisters of America or whatever, and kind of insinuates himself into coming. Some group of father and son. That’s it. He makes himself part of their family just to put words in this child’s Oo. I guess he wanted Charlie was, like 21 at the time, right to put words Hewitts the young man’s mouth, right, right. Yeah, he was young. He was a fairly sheltered guy. They lived in Lodi, which is the agricultural community that has a very large Pakistani population. And you know, the informant, Aamer Hakan, you know, basically became part of that family over, Of course, of course, of Munther. And that’s not unusual in a lot of the stairs and prosecutions where the informant will will kind of establish this really close and intimate relationship with the target of the investigation. And you know, the reason for that in kind of the the most cynical sense is that the FBI’s paying this guy a lot of money to find terrorists. So, you know, by getting to know these people, he’s able to kind of manipulate them into saying things that he needs them to say in order to kind of bring it to the FBI. And that’s what happened in this case. And so, you know, as Hama Hyatt goes toe to Pakistan, and I believe the initial purpose of the trip was to try to find a potential bride through an arranged marriage situation in Pakistan. Ind. Thean Foer Minh dates back to the United States with his father, you know, and even that he’s talking to his father and he’s talking to Hama Hyatt on the phone and and really trying to get him to say, you know, uh, they want to attend this camp and you know, he’s interested in Al Qaeda. All of these ideas are ultimately coming from the informant, which in turn is ultimately coming from the FBI. And as you said, the kid is on the phone. He’s essentially just b s ing the informant just to get him to leave him alone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I promise I’ll go to the camp when he had no intention of doing so. And as you say, they’re sworn testimony. He was instead playing video games, right? Right. And I think, you know, I mean, really what? This is something that simple. It’s like, you know, Com Id was a fairly immature guy. You know, if if you think back to your school yard days and you wanted to fit into a group and, you know, you may be mimicked the things that those kids in the other group did and said no, that was really what was happening with Hama Id and the informant, like Com Id was just like, you know, saying the things that the informant, you know, initially brought up and you know, either to kind of fit in because he didn’t have a lot of friends. He wasn’t particularly social or, you know, just to kind of make it go away like Hemat. And I’m sick of you bothering me about this issue like, Yeah, yeah, I’ll go, I’ll go. And that’s ultimately how it came off. But, you know, if you’re being generous to the FBI, the generous view would be that they really expected this guy was involved in something pretty dangerous. And so when he says that, it confirms that, believe, you know, if you’re being more cynical about what the FBI was doing, that they were kind of skeptical. But, hey, they’ve got a prosecutor beautiful case because the guy said this, Um and it really wasn’t a case of like, you know, is this really, you know, involved in terrorism because he just, you know, the evidence shows he clearly wasn’t. And again, I mean, it would be one thing. It would be bad enough, Assn. Case that stand on stands on its own. But keep in mind that Hama High it is One of more than 800 people have been caught up in these post 9 11 terrorism investigations. And indeed, there have been some that have been dangerous and some that may have posed a threat, but a vast majority We’re not involved in terrorism did not have connections. Terrorists. It was really made possible through the actions of undercover informants, undercover agents. And, you know, so you know, what we’ve done is we’ve, you know, really busted a lot of people that really shouldn’t have been busted. And I think what this is also done, you know, kind of bring it forward into the moment we are now. You know, we had all of these largely Muslims convicted and in cases that are very well publicized nationally in these terrorism cases, and, you know, I think we’ve begun to kind of view this as, like, you know, culturally, it became like Awal terrorism is a Muslim thing because ultimately all of these cases inflated the perception in the United States that you know terrorism from Islamicism is incredibly dangerous and prevalent, even though the vast majority of these cases were largely manufactured by the government. And so the time we get to 2016 and Donald Trump is running for Peress United States, you know, he can say things like, You know, we should shut down immigration from Muslim countries until we can figure out what the hell is going on, right? Well, like what he’s referring to are all these, like terrorism prosecutions, that I’ve kind of been in the ether for 15 years? And I think, you know, if you’re if you’re really kind of looking at the long narrative of this, I mean, you could point to the FBI in these cases that kind of setting the mood for the current kind of Islamophobe were now in agree? Absolutely. And you know, I mean, the thing of it, too, is I remember, probably even in our earlier interviews, you know, probably going back to the Bush years where we talked about how, certainly, on my show we talked about this in different contexts. that. You know, they have to fake all the terrorists because Al Qaeda was only 4 500 guys. So they have to come up with all these bogus cases. But then they use the September 11th attack to launch all these other wars, and so is easy to predict it. There will be real blowback, real backdraft, even or in a you know, it’s short term consequences blown up right in your face. Um, like, ah, when you have veterans of America’s jihad in Syria blowing up targets in Europe or you have, you know, um, the Orlando attack and er zat ze and a couple of the others have been I guess what? See, in my book I list about, I guess, 1/2 dozen eight or 10 um, riel terrorists not entrapped by the FBI, but really bad guys. But they all started. When did they start? In the Obama years, right? It was. Fort Hood was the first major Wone. It took years for Bush to really provoke Eni real ones. And in the meantime, Bob Mueller was happy to entrap hundreds of people, As you say here. And these fake ones. Um, now they do both, but, you know, like in the case. Oh, that was you that taught me this. In the case of the Boston attack, when the Russians had said, you need to look out for these brothers, they said, Yeah, yeah, yeah. We’re busy in trapping some stupid kid on the other side of town. Pay attention to the rial Wone going on right there, which is another one we warned about. I know that you and I weren’t about back in history. That as these cops are Awal chasing their tails on these bogus entrapment cases, you’re gonna have real guys slipping through the cracks. Which is then exactly what happens. Yeah. I mean, the FBI is very good at finding these. Like you knuckleheads, too don’t have connections, Atto International terrorists don’t have any weapons and getting them wrapped up in cases and busting them. But the people like Omar, Mateen and the Orlando Attacker and others, you know, these were people that really fell through the fbi’s dragnet, and they weren’t as good at finding these people. And I think you’re right as well. I mean, in addition to these Bayh cases, kind of setting the stage for Foer. You know, Islamophobia we have now. There’s also this really strange kind of narrative in question that we have in this country about terrorism, for Islamist terrorism, which is always just kind of like, Well, I don’t understand why they’re attacking this. Why are they doing this, right? How do we stop it? And if you look, I mean, they actually tell you, right? Like there as an example that there was a guy affiliated with Isis claiming allegiance. Isis, who tried to bomb the bus terminal in New York City. Fortunately, his bomb suicide bomb did not go off. And, you know, he told police that you know the reason he did this. He saw his neighbors wedding in Pakistan, you know, get blown up from a drone, right? And then he’s like, I’m gonna, like, avenged. And so I think one of the things that we don’t really think about is that there is now I’m sorry. You’re referring there to the Times Square attack of 2010. This was This was a couple of years ago, I think in 20 16 17 there was a failed bombing attempt at the at the Port Authority bus terminal in New York, a guy claiming affiliation with Isis dropped the bomb to himself and tried to blow it up. But it didn’t blow up. I think it sparked a little bitty costs. I’m burning to his chest. But ultimately he survived. And he had had told the police that, you know, the reason he did this was, you know, because of this thing drone attack of this wedding Monde. You know, it’s instructive in this sense that, like, you know, part of, you know, we are inspiring terrorism, right? And, you know, after the Iraq war, you know, in our kind of general policies in the Middle East, you know, there’s some of what we’re seeing is a reaction, right? And there was a story recently about how you know, when Tony Blair was being pushed to support the Iraq war, you know, is national security advisers had written a memo that basically said, You know, if you do this, if we’re going to Iraq, we’re gonna destabilized that reason. And what we’re going to ultimately see is attacks in Europe, you know, from, you know, people coming out of that war. And that’s exactly what we’ve seen, right? And so I think you know, this is also kind of part of the narrative on terrorism to it. I think it’s really silly to be having this conversation of like, Well, why do they do this? And, you know, you know, there are certainly people who attack for, you know, you know, just over the ideological or homicidal reasons. But, you know, in some of these cases they are attacking in response to our own policies. Whether that’s whether that air strikes in the Middle East Foer drone attacks. And you know this is their way of of settling that score exactly. And that’s the thing right is you know you can accuse him of war crimes if they’re attacking civilian targets. That doesn’t make their actions legitimate in any way. It just any more than when our side attacks civilian targets or helps the Saudis attack civilian targets or whatever the case is. But it’s just to recognize the reality that the reason that they’re doing this is because they’re in a war. They’re on the other side of Wone, Um, but, ah, as you say, the same thing with virtually all of these guys Moti Gn or the czar, Negev brothers or any of these people going back to the first World Trade Center bombing. They always say exactly what their motive is, and the motive is always Americanflag Gn policy. Yeah, we’re gonna have a conversation about what causes terrorism. You know, I think part of that conversation that we’ve never had it like, What is our role in that right with how how have our unjust wars and how have our our bombing’s? You know, there’s this perception. I think, in the culture that the way the U. S bombs is like, we have these precision bombs and we only kill the targets, right? And like, that’s not that’s not the case at all, right? I mean, air wars more recently documented How, you know, in the in the kind of in the attempt, you know, destroy Isis in Syria, you know, we were carpet bombing lots of eastern Syria. We were killing civilians, right? And so this is you know, we may You know, the irony in all of this, of course, is that maybe we finally brought Isis Isis to its knees in Syria. But you know what other extremism and terrorism are we going to inspire in the future by those sorts of action, like carpet bombing towns and cities. And, you know, I think these are the kind of harder conversations Atto have about the roots of terrorism and back to the entrapments. You know, there’s I don’t think a single case of these entrapments where the rat didn’t say to the mark. Don’t you hate American foreign policy? Get what they’re doing, right? So this isn’t lost on the FBI. The FBI doesn’t have their informants tell these people. Don’t you hate freedom? Don’t you hate it? That blonde girls in miniskirts, Cannes vote in primary elections and blah, blah, blah? No. Don’t you hate rated R movies? No, that’s not it. It’s killing people. That’s what the FBI informants use to manipulate their marks in these fake cases over and over again. No exceptions. I don’t think you told me if you know of any, and you wrote the book on it. No, no, you’re actually right. You know, I mean plenty. Often here, like terrorists are terrorists. Politicians will say about terrorists, like, you know, they hate our freedom, right? That’s why they do this. That’s not why I do this and and and you’re right, even in the even in these terror something cases where the FBI is planting the idea, you know the inspiration that they work with this idea of American foreign policy in the Middle East, whether it’s, um, Armey bases in Saudi Arabia, near Mecca and Medina, or whether it’s bomb strikes in, you know, in Iraq, in other places in the Middle East there drone attacks. And that’s really what they’re working with is this idea that, you know in the United States is killing with impunity in the Muslim world. And you know, they’re what they want to do is offer a way of striking back on that. And, you know, obviously you know, I don’t think, you know it’s right. It all that you know, these terrorists trying to do the things they’re doing. But I do think it’s wrong that we’re not having a more honest conversation about America’s role in inspiring those types of, uh, that type of violence. Absolutely Right now, one more subject Foer let Yugo here, and that is, you know, you mentioned about the FBI agents. If you want to be charitable, you can say, Look, they were scared and then they had all this confirmation bias, pull vaulting. I knew it, whatever you know. Or maybe they really were just being that cynical and they don’t care. Hey, let the jury decide. And what have you, this and that? But here’s the unforgivable port is they told the local news. And, of course, the national news, too. But they told the people of Lodi, California, that we found a terrorist, okayed a sleeper cell embedded in the Pakistani community in your sleepy little town. And this was a community that had lived there for a guest since the 19 eighties, something like that for a while, and had had no problems and got along were well integrated into the society and everything. And all of a sudden, in the most apocalyptic terms are supposed security force. Here are public servants to protect us in all this stuff came and drove this giant wedge between the Pakistani dash American population of that town and everybody else. And you know, who knows what kind of collateral damage came from that. But I bet it’s far worse than we know for sure. So I mean, there’s a couple of things don’t pack there. I mean, one is that, you know, what we’ve seen since 9 11 is the FBI and the Justice Department generally really overplay these cases. And you know, the reason I argue that they do is that, you know, post 9 11 the FBI is an organization that is not only a law enforcement agency, but also in intelligence and counter terrorism agency. But they measure their success. They justify their budget through the old school metric of law enforcement, which is arrest made great. And so it becomes part of their culture to take in large budgets for counterterrorism and counterintelligence and then announce with great fanfare, these cases. And in many cases, that means over stating or blowing the case and at the same time what that ultimately does by making a big deal about these cases as being terrorism cases. When the links for terrorism are at times, 10 us or even not existence is it creates, you know, a lot of suspicion between the targeted communities, mostly Muslim and the other communities where they think well, like, you know, are there terrorists among us. And I think when the average American, you know, beat the news or watches the news. They hear about a terrorism bust in their community involving Muslims. You know their first suspicion. You know, you know, they’re not staying up on the news as you and I are and researching this I mean, there’s, like, you know, Americans trying to get through their day, right? You can’t blame him. And I think, you know, as a result, their their immediate reaction is like home. There must be danger among this, the Muslim community. And I think we’ve seen that drive wedges in communities around the country. And again, I think it’s what feeds into a lot of the Trump policies now and fed into his own election campaign, which is this idea that you know, this this group is very dangerous. Rond we need toe, do something about it, whether it’s to re immigration or even more draconian policies. And, you know, I think that’s the kind of terrible situation we’re in now, where you know, pre 9 11 Muslim communities in the United States were very well integrated into communities. They were among the most affluent of immigrant communities in the United States and So it’s ironic that post 9 11 we then kind of portrayed them largely as a bookie man. And you know, that isn’t to say that Islamist terrorism isn’t really right. Like it obviously is. We talked about the Orlando shooting and others you know, there have been attacks, but, you know, there have not been those on the level that, you know, we see portrayed by the FBI and Lodi is an example of that, right? You have this very well integrated Pakistani American community in Northern California. There was no record of any substantial problems with that community. And suddenly, post 9 11 you’ve got this really traveling that problematic case and the FBI is pouting like, Hey, we found the sleeper cell and you know, ultimately, what does that do for the reputation of that community in California? It largely Impey use it. And I think that’s something that you know Muslim communities around the country are struggling with. Now is like, you know, how do we kind of get past the reputational damage that these kind of cases and policies have have reached on us in our own communities? And I think that’s why more and more. You see, organizations like Khair and others, like trying to hold, you know, kind of meet and greets and, you know, dialogue to kind of show that, like, Look, this is we’re just like you. Here we are. You know, we’ve been rather vilified and we’re trying to figure out, you know, how we could go back to, you know, the time before we were vilified. And, you know, I think you know, I think now we’re also seeing the vilification of other groups now in different ways, right? Look, Hispanic immigrants, you know, Assn. Being sources of economic problems or crime as the current administration is portraying them. And so, you know, it’s troubling to see, you know, kind of the expansion of the policies in different ways toward different groups. Awene. That, of course, is a lot of blowback from America’s drug wars in Mexico and Kode Ayt Ons and support for all sorts of right wing hunters and policies in Latin America and all that, uh, otherwise people of ah Awene Door’s probably Wana live in their hometown where they’re from like everybody else. They’re fully in something and it’s the policies of the last government of course, Bayh Louay. One last thing here, which is simply that it goes without saying always. But I think it’s worth saying We all know there’s no chance that there will be accountability for any of the cops, the prosecutors, the judges, the jurors, the prison officials and all the people involved in conspiring to deprive this innocent man of his liberty for the last 15 years here. Hey, we got qualified immunity. Mistakes happened. Ah, who cares? It’s not at our expense. It never will be. Is this Logan of the federal prosecutor and it? Everybody knows it to such a degree that it’s essentially unthinkable for me to bring up the idea of accountability for these people who did the wrong thing, whether deliberately or not, is preposterous. It makes me the kook for even saying that it’s something that we ought to consider is a thing that should be so. I’m happy to play that role. Yeah, no, I mean, I think you’re absolutely right. I mean, even if you look at Debra Barnes, the magistrate judges a recommendation to have Hama Gheit case overturned, she went out of her way not to directly criticise the government’s behavior right? She pointed out the problems with the case but did not take on the government. And that’s fairly common. Amman. The judiciary Unfortunately, where I don’t think you see the courage. Atto. You know you don’t bring the government, you know, task on some of these issues or take the governor’s task on some of these issues. And, you know, so the prosecutor prosecuted cases. Career won’t be affected. The FBI agents, of course, those confessions, their career won’t be affected. And I think that’s part of the problem that these abuses continue is that there is no accountability. Andrei, separate from the judiciary of the other area where the FBI could be held accountable is Congress, and we all know how that’s going right. Like the Congress isn’t, you know, willing toe really question the FBI about much of anything unless it involves the Moler investigation. And so there’s all sorts of problems that you see in the FBI and unwillingness Atto really address them either Ind Idi, Nashiri or in the Congress. Yeah, well, Greg used to joke about there was ah, Tom Clancy movie with Harrison Ford. You know, one of those from the 19 nineties, where the movie ends with Harrison Ford, takes a stack of documents and marches up Capitol Hill. And then, like the sun sets in the credits roll. And you know that that’s the point when accountability kicked in, right? Just how alien that is to our way of life. That’s not at all how things are around here, but it makes for a fun kind of ah, closer to a movie Hour and 1/2 is up, you know. Anyway, yeah, I worked in Hollywood, but not unrelated. Alright, listen, I can’t tell you how much I appreciate all your great work. You’re great. Book the Terror Factory which started out life as an article Foer Ah, Mother Jones magazine Naway Back before David Corn invented Russia Ge Ayt There was something interesting published in that Monde Gn uh there’s the terror factory, the great book and all of your great writing at the intercept dot com, including this one. Reporters questioned his terror prosecution. Now he’s free. Thank you again, Trevor. Great. Thanks so much. Every Bibi Non. All right, y’all. Thanks. Find me at Libertarian Institute dot or Ge at scott Kortan dot or Ge Antiwar dot com and reddit dot com slash scott Horton Show. Oh yeah, and read my book Fool’s Errand Timed and the War in Afghanistan at Fool’s errand dot us.

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Gareth Porter explains why the claim that the Russian government “hacked all 50 U.S. states” is false—namely, the states themselves know that their systems were intact! The narrative has nonetheless been pushed continuously, as democrats try to justify Hillary Clinton’s 2016 loss by any means necessary.

Discussed on the show:

• “U.S. States: We Weren’t Hacked by Russians in 2016” (The American Conservative)
• “Russia Targeted Election Systems in All 50 States, Report Finds” (The New York Times)

Gareth Porter is an investigative historian and journalist on the national security state, and author of Manufactured Crisis: The Untold Story of the Iran Nuclear Scare. Follow him on Twitter @GarethPorter and listen to Gareth’s previous appearances on the Scott Horton Show.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; Washinton Babylon; Liberty Under Attack Publications; Listen and Think Audio; TheBumperSticker.com; and LibertyStickers.com.

Donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal, or Bitcoin: 1KGye7S3pk7XXJT6TzrbFephGDbdhYznTa.

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sorry I’m late. I had to stop by the wax museum again. Give the finger that FDR. We know Al Qaeda Zawahiri is supporting the opposition in Syria. Are we supporting Al Qaeda in Syria? Hrant, It’s a proud day for America. And by God we kicked Vietnam syndrome once and for all. Thank you. Very. I say it. I see it again. Bin These are trying to simply deny things just about everybody else except as fact Saud died way Kila Bayh, Armey Mutawakil Ind Maale we Bol Beito like say I’m a Bin Say it, say it three times the meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world. Then that’s going to be an invasion. Dohuk All right, you guys. Well, the thing that’s not true was set. And so Gareth Porter wrote an article about it. And so now it’s time for Meteo interview him about his article. He wrote about the thing. That’s not true. Welcome back to the show. Gareth, are you? Hello, Scott, But glad to be back. I’m fine. You’re good at your job. Thanks. I needed that. Uh, I could use all the encouragement I can get. I got plenty here, man. Uh, interview number 300 20 or so U S states we weren’t hacked by Russians in 2016. That’s the headline at the American Conservative magazine. Essentially, what happened here was the Senate came out with this report based on this old De HSE report that you already debunked a solid year ago. Is that about it? That that’s the That’s the background. Exactly. Yes. Okay, so the Russians, I guess that means the Communist KGB trying to kill us and disrupt our society by making black people think that they’re the subject of racism and stuff like that. I read at nbc dot com. So, um, you know, go ahead and tell us what it was. I guess First of all, don’t let me just make fun of the whole thing. The Senate Intelligence Committee came out with this report saying that the Russians hacked essentially all 50 states air tried to Yeah, this is this is the most astonishing thing about this report that they actually, you know, made the argument that that Russia probably hacked all 50 states, and it was based on nothing Maura than the say so of Ah, the opinion of the Obama administration’s hype. Security. A cyber security specialist in the NSC, uh, who didn’t know anything Mauricia than that. He just felt that that was the case because there was no pattern to the apparent or alleged hacking or targeting shall we say that he could find. So the lack of a pattern was used to suggest that that it’s probable that Russia simply hacked all 50 states or tried to hack all 50 states, which is perhaps the most absurd claim that I’ve ever seen in an official document issued by a major congressional committee that’s supposed to be doing serious, serious investigation. Well, I don’t know. I’ve read Cem Kufa stuff in some of the reports before Lif corrected on that. But anyway, that’s an impression. Yeah, no, it’s absolutely, uh, otherworldly. The amount Well, the level of stupidity. I guess that they presume we must have to buy into this stuff. That’s certainly true. And, you know, I mean the point. The point, additionally, that one has to make about the claim that Russia probably or simply the claim that they did try to hack 50 states into their electoral websites is that you know that the Intelligence Committee report doesn’t even substantiate. It’s more fundamental claim the one that it’s more serious about that. The Russians tried toe hack or targeted, as they say, UH, 21 states, at least 21 states is the way they put it. And and, as you say, I did debunk that one. Um, I forgot Gn when it was more than a year ago, I guess. Um and I have written about it twice, in fact, but ah, this this time around, it’s even Maurizio Ge GIs for them to make that claim. Because, in fact, I mean the rial headline in this story. The headline should have been something like, Ah, you know the states themselves refute the claim Maidan The intelligence Committee’s report that you know about the attempt to target 21 states because the states themselves, although not all of them, uh, clearly articulated a position in the or are clearly shown to articulate a position in the report those that did, which I believe is roughly 17. If I haven’t understood, remember correctly, Um, no, None of them actually support the contention of the report of the De hs of the committee that that they were hacked by the Russians or that they were targeted by the Russians. Uh, and and most of them, clearly their report clearly refutes it, suggesting that either there was no sign of Eni attempt to hack into their ah websites or certainly not by anybody that could be identified as Russian or if there were attempts to break in or two to scan. Ah, scanning was the most common term used. It was simply that that there was a ah, basically was using a tool to try to scan the website that was identifed that had been identified by the FBI as a um as a tool associate Id with the Illinois break in the break in. That actually stole some 200,000 personal files of registered voters. Uh, and and so, of course, the Intelligence Committee and the De HS have always claimed that the, uh that that tool using that tool is somehow evidence of Russian hacking Oo are hacking attempt. But in fact, you know the tools that they identified Wone was ah, Akkad genetics. Um, and the other one sq l ah at the SQL Tool. Uh, they’re comin. The tools used by Awal hackers or attempted hackers on the Internet. I mean, these air just absolutely the most common tools available, uh, to to anybody who wants to try to, ah, scan or or to probe a website on the Internet S O. So it’s absolutely not evidence off of any Russian attribution Oo or justification for ah, Russian attribution of these probes and scans. And so you know this is this is really a perfect case of just how ah, the the system, including the Senate Intelligence Committee, the D. H S and the FBI have promoted this this phony idea about Russian hacking into the election systems of the United States. Hold on just one second, be right back. So you’re constantly buying things from amazon dot com Maor. That makes sense. They bring it right to your house. So what you do, though, is click through from the link in the right hand margin at Scott Kortan dot or Ge, and I’ll get a little bit of a kickback from Amazon’s into the sale. Won’t cost your thing nice Louay To help support this show again. That’s right there in the margin at scott horton dot or Ge. Hey, guys, check it out. Investigative reporter Ken Silverstein is launching a fund raising campaign to support his writing of a new book about Marco Rubio, an effort to overthrow the government of Venezuela. This will be no defense of the Maduro regime, which Silverstein opposes. But it’s certainly be devastating to its American enemies, who are operating far outside of their constitutional purview. Helps support Kenzo effort to get to the bottom of the interest behind America’s plot to overthrow the government of Venezuela at patriot dot com slash d. C. Babylon. Hey, guys, you got to check out the bumper sticker dot com. You play in a band, you need stickers. Yugo the bumper sticker dot com Maybe you have a business and you need stickers. Yugo to the bumper sticker dot com They’ll take care of all this stuff. I created the company back. I don’t know Generation Goa. I sold it to Rick McGinnis, and he’s done a great job with the company ever since they got what you needed over there at the bumper sticker dot com. All right, Now, are you sure this is really you mentioned? The SQL map and the this other. Ah, Aq. You have every cue Knittig ce over these Andrei, these air very common. Is that it, though? I mean, there’s not ah ah more specific accusation. Tying this to the g r u. Somehow it all just you know, they the pattern of activity, the thing. The thing that happens in this report is that that the Senate Intelligence Committee quotes the VHS in every case of ah state, which they cover, um, as saying that the g r u attempted to hack into this state’s ah election ah, or or into the States websites, public facing websites. And so that’s sort of the formula that’s repeated over and over again. But there’s nothing Maura my way of serious evidence that’s offered for this. Um, I mean, they sight Ah ah, the site. The the I P addresses. I didn’t mention the I P addresses. That’s the other thing. There are a few cases where the I p address that was used Foer The Illinois heist, if you want to call it that were found in scans efforts to scan a public facing website in the States. I would my recollections that would possibly was five or six? Uh, maybe four. Possibly four or five. Um, that that did, in fact, mention the i p address in the state reports. But that’s it. Basically, it’s the I P address and the tools the hacking tools that were used in the Illinois case which the FBI then set out to the states to all the states, Uh, release the 21 states. I’m not sure they sent it to all the states, but they sent it to these 21 states. Uh, and ah asked them to report back to them on any evidence that they could find in checking their files that either the tools or the I P address. Ah, one of the I P addresses that was used in Illinois. I was, um, was found in their in their own case. And so, you know, that’s, you know, some of the some of the states reported back that yes, they found one of the I P addresses or the hacking tool that have been used against a public facing website. But, um, and and in a couple in a very few cases, it was both Ah, it was a, uh, website that was related to the election as well as other websites. Um, so you know, that was the That was the state of their ah, of their the sum total of their evidence. Basescu. Um and then the i P address was tied directly to G r U headquarters Awene Spy Street in Moscow. Right? Uh, I’m not sure that that’s the case. I’m not sure that that’s the case at all. They didn’t say that. There’s nothing that said that in this report I’ve not seen anywhere else. I think he said it of the Wone are a few of them were traced to this server in Siberia. That was apparently Dr Alaa Ehren case. Yes, of course. Different question. Uh, you’re right. Of course. Uh, there, there is this, uh, this argument that well, after all, he’s I p addresses were traced to a server in Siberia. Ah, and that somehow that could be a suggestion that somehow the Russians were involved. But of course, in fact, that’s not evidence of that at all, because a server located in a particular location has many I p addresses. Um, that are not connected with that with that country. Of course, some of them. Maybe, but some of them are not. And, um, uh, you know, it’s this with this point has been made by cyber security specialists Awene more than one occasion. And, uh, the the fact is that the Intelligence Committee and the FBI are perfectly aware that this is not a, uh, riel ironclad indicator of Russian involvement, Russian government involvement at all. In fact, there’s a quote that I have in my story in the report that, uh, actually indicates that the De hs and and the Senate Intelligence Committee are perfectly well aware of this. That it said that I don’t have exact words in my head. But it said something to the effect that, um, the I p address, um er could be an indicator of a possible Russian involvement I have here provided some indications the activity might be attributable to the Russian government. That’s extremely weak. Extreme week and and to my mind, it’s the most damning thing in the entire report. All right, well, so who cares about house cards is built on quicksand can look good. In a snapshot on CNN for a minute, Senate report reveals that the Russians attacked every voting system in all 50 states. We’re at their mercy. Whatever we’re gonna do to defend ourselves from this aggression. Yeah, well, of course, this is Ah, that this is one of the worst cases ever of abuses by the mass media. I mean, the New York Times story is absolutely the worst. David Sanger was the author or co author of that story. Um, in which the headline Leat blared out You know, Hiran s Excuse me? Russia got around in my mind. Russia Ah, hacked Awal of 50 states. Uh, and of course, uh, this was not was not even clarified in the story itself. Ah, Sanju Norwin ahead on the premise that that the that the intelligence report actually showed that Iran had had hacked into 50 states. Sir Akkad, 50 states. You know what Cem artists should do A comic book about David Singar. You could have so much fun with something like somebody if they’re crazy enough to, uh, want to do that and make a real star out of him, you know? Yeah, well that he deserves, he deserves special treatment. He’s been doing this for more than two decades. If I remember correctly or at least almost two decades, in any case, all right, Well, now so take us back to a year ago, because again, it’s the new Senate report essentially recycling this old VHS report from a year ago that you already debunked then, right? Yeah. It’s essentially the same story line, but But with this new twist of the 50 states claim Plus, you know, sort of having a state by state round up, Not not all the 21 because there’s, ah, a couple of states that, uh, are not, um, you know, not clearly. There’s not a clear report on them, but but basically, it’s ah, report on the 21 states and ah, the the claim of the De hs. In each case, the g r u was behind it. Ah, but that’s ah, that’s the only riel new element. And it plus, you know, I think they went so far as to you know, they have ah, long quote, most of which is redacted. Um, from the, um ah. From from the report that, um had to do with the I P addresses and the, um I guess it was. It was about the i P addresses as evidence. And as I say, I think they went too far. And they actually included this quote, which is quite damning. The rest of it, we don’t know what it was, but it appears that some of the redacted material what were arguments that have been made against using the I. P address? Yes, it’s about Russian attribution and And what was What were those? Well, we don’t know because they were redacted. We don’t know what the arguments were, but the sentence ah, that we’re talking about here begins with, however So that suggested that, ah, that this sentence was following some arguments that were against the idea that could be used to just two would attribute this to to Russia. That’s funny. Um, all right. And now So now, back a year ago, you went and actually talk to some of these officials at the state level and then some of them, and talk to some other media sources. And you have a pretty good run down here of I guess they made the biggest deal about Illinois. Sahih have Cem quotes. Orbi else have Oregon and California and Arizona, I think, Can you take us through some of that. Well, yeah. Um, Arizona is the most interesting one because it was highlighted in the report, uh, as a case where the FBI thought they really had him here. Ah, they thought there were two cases where the Russians were involved in efforts to hack. Ah, the electoral system. One of them was, ah, a local official who had gotten his credentials. Internet credential stolen, um, Awene by a spear phishing operation. And the other one was, uh, what was claimed to be a hack of a Gn election of a public facing election site. Well, it turns out that the, uh, the case of the Ms of the stolen credentials was not attributed. Could not be attributed the Russians, after all that the FBI backed down on that, but they continued to argue that the other one, the public facing Internet site, was a Russian operation. The only problem was that it turned out when the when the Arizona officials confronted the De hs with their denial that any of their election sites have been hacked into or there was any serious effort to do so. Ah, the De hs admitted that the site they were talking about was the Phoenix Public Library. And so this this is the one that the FBI has not yet given up as a supposed Russian operation. That’s so far though, the Arizona cases the most amusing Wone and the other the other cases have to do with the state election officials again confronting the D. H s. For example, if I remember correctly, Minnesota did this confronted De HS officials and got them to back down on their claim that that that their electoral website had been have been scanned or somehow serious effort had been made to penetrate Cem. Um and same thing happened with, um with California. Um And what was what came out of these various cases where the state’s actually stood up to the D. H s was that the De hs publicly admitted that they considered that Eni Eni time Eni public facing website um on the Internet. Foer within a state had been scanned that this was this could be considered evidence of a Russian effort to penetrate the electoral system because it was a case of trying to enter a website or get into a Beppe website that might have similar characteristics that was the wording they used. And so I mean, this was the kind of argument that the D. H s resorted to in order to include more states in their list. In fact, most of the states would come under that under that rubric of of the fact that they that some website was scanned that could have the same characteristics as a state electoral, election related website head. It’s a very sneaky kind of approach, which I written about before and I think deserves public. Ah, condemnation. Yeah, well, you know, it’s funny because when it comes to Russia Ge Ayt mostly we think of the Mueller investigation and you know, Carter Page didn’t do it, and Papadopoulos didn’t do it, and Flynn didn’t do it, and Sessions didn’t do it. And the whole collusion narrative was bake. And then there’s focus on Huu really hacked the DNC or leaked thumb drive worth or whatever exactly happened with that and this kind of thing. But there’s so many of these extra side stories, um, of Russian interference that sort of made up for the I don’t know, which called the background noise, essentially Oo they attacked our electric infrastructure. Awal. They attacked Awal. The voter rolls Oo they, you know, tried to disrupt this. That and every other thing. They had a secret server communicating with Trump Monde. And there’s just such a long laundry list on. It’s sort of like the way that they claimed Iran was making nuclear bombs 100,000 times only This is just 100,000 separate fake claims, but it really is a lot, and you really have whatever percent. It may be a narrow percent, but boy, were they deeply committed to this narrative of the Russian attack on America that gave us Donald Trump’s government and all of this. Yeah, I just want to make the point, though, that this narrative about the effort to hack into the alleged effort to hack into state election Web Sepp uh, it has been extremely significant politically in this country because the public absolutely believes that the Russians did, in fact, hack into election systems. And a friend of mine who lives in California, who I spoke with on the phone, he and his wife on the phone, uh, she piped up and said, I told her what I was working on what I’d written about. And she said, But the Russians did hack into our election system, didn’t they? And and so I mean, they absolutely believe this on. And this has been extremely damaging in a fundamental sense to the stability of this political system. And by the way, I mean, you know, and the whole show, I mean your anecdotes. Great. But Jeremy Hammond wrote a piece debunking this the other day as well that we Raan Awene antiwar dot com. And he quotes the poles of where among Democrats, I’m not sure, overall, but certainly among Democrats, it’s super majorities believe this and could never be convinced otherwise, either. Yeah, I know it’s true. Of course, the Democrat is the Democrats. Huu fundamentally believe that I understand that. I mean, a lot of Republican. I just mean and it’s in high high numbers to absolutely Yeah, yeah, it’s And so it is. You know, we saw with Iraq war to where the Republicans were so committed to Iraq or two, and then they never really came clean on. It just took, you know, through by the end of the Obama years, they were able to admit that Okay, Yeah, well, maybe shouldn’t have done that. Not that I was wrong about it or anything, but it took that long for them to sort of climb down from that and really for Donald Trump to finish it off by attacking Jeb the way he did. Really helped with that, I guess. But it took that long for the pro Iraq War, right to sort of forget all that are, you know, Cees identifying with that pro war pro wreck or sentiment that they had previously held. So is it going to take that long for these Democrats to get over this nonsense? Ghafoor, You know, two term administration Post Trump before they’re willing to admit that. Okay, that really was just the c A. B s in us. Yeah, it’s very, very interesting question. I don’t know what the answer is, and I think in fact, it’s It’s ah, it’s very possible that if there were sufficient questioning by Cem Ki people political of figures in this country about this narrative that it could very quickly collapse. I think that’s that’s a possibility. I think it collapse. The collapse of this could be much quicker than the one on Iraq potentially, Cem. I should have. When? When the Mulla report was wrapped up. And that was the end of that. Anyway, I’m sorry. I just realized how late I am for my next interview. But thank you so much for coming on the show to talk about this again with scared Bin. A pleasure. Thanks Guen. Aren’t you guys? That’s ah great Gareth Porter. He’s at the American conservative dot com U S states. We weren’t hacked by Russians. 2016 Stupid liars. All right, Yul. Thanks. Find me at Libertarian Institute dot or Ge at scott Kortan dot or Ge antiwar dot com and reddit dot com slash scott Horton Show. Oh, yeah, And read my book Fool’s Errand Timed and the War in Afghanistan at Fool’s errand dot us.

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Scott interviews Cato’s John Mueller about why it’s time to leave Afghanistan. Fundamentally, the Taliban cannot be defeated at any remotely acceptable cost of American lives and U.S. dollars, says Mueller, and at the same time military interventions has only made the Al-Qaeda problem—America’s original enemies—even worse. Fortunately, it seems like President Trump might see ending the war in Afghanistan as a possible path to reelection.

Discussed on the show:

• “Overcoming Inertia: Why It’s Time to End the War in Afghanistan” (Cato Institute)
• “Life under the Taliban shadow government” (Overseas Development Institute)

John Mueller is a senior fellow at the Cato Institute and a senior research scientist with the Mershon Center for International Security Studies at Ohio State University. He is the author of Overblown: How Politicians and the Terrorism Industry Inflate National Security Threats, and Why We Believe Them , Atomic Obsession: Nuclear Alarmism from Hiroshima to Al-Qaeda, and many others. Follow his work at the Cato Institute.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; Washinton Babylon; Liberty Under Attack Publications; Listen and Think Audio; TheBumperSticker.com; and LibertyStickers.com.

Donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal, or Bitcoin: 1KGye7S3pk7XXJT6TzrbFephGDbdhYznTa.

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Following is an auto-generated transcript of the episode.

sorry I’m late. I had to stop by the wax museum again and give the finger that f d r. We know Al Qaeda. Zawahiri is supporting the opposition in Syria. Are we supporting Al Qaeda in Syria? It’s a proud day for America. I got kicked Knut Gnehm syndrome once and for all. Thank you very much, I say. And I see it again. Bin are trying to simply deny things just about everybody else except as fact Saud died way Kila, Bayh, Armey Khaleeq Illing Maale way Bol Beito like, say, I’m a Bin Say it say it three times the meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world. Then that’s going to be an invasion Id Dohuk. All right, you guys introducing John E. Mueller from Kato. And, uh, he’s one of the greats in their foreign policy department there he’s the author of Overblown and Atomic Obsession. Terror, Security and money. Capitalism and democracy. That’s interesting. Um, policy, An opinion in the Gulf War. Boy, I wish I could take a summer off and catch up on all this stuff. Ah, How are you doing? Welcome back To show, John. Thanks. Nice to be here. Happy to have you here. And especially on the occasion of you and John Glaser, my good friend writing this wonderful thing about. Well, if I could quote from your subtitle here Time to end the war in Afghanistan. Boy, that sure sounds familiar. Uh, we found a book called Fools Hrant, which is very helpful in various places. Oh, that’s good. You looked at that, huh? All right, well, so you guys sure have a ah Minni book length sort of treaties here. Policy analysis, overcoming inertia. It’s called, and we’re running it at antiwar dot com, I think today. Great. Um and, ah, course. John Glaser, former editor in antiwar dot com. Good friend of self. Um, and you guys start out with Barack Obama saying, Hey, it’s pretty easy to imagine a situation where I leave it on auto pilot for the next guy here. You’re saying that in 2010 time is up. Yeah. Um, all right, you know what? So let me try to do this since, uh, you read my book and I read this thing. I didn’t read the whole thing, but, ah, the the HTML version you have here not the pdf, but, um, let me start with, uh, Andrew McCarthy over at the National Review saying that you know what? I don’t care how tired out you are from Awal Bushian Obama’s Ms Takes elsewhere in the Middle East. We still just can not give up this fight or else Al Qaeda will come back. The Taliban will laugh in our face and will allow them to come back. And the next thing you know they’ll be knocking our towers down again. Yeah, it is that is that Is that recently? Yeah. I was, uh, just a couple weeks ago are actually last week, I think. Yeah, well, the same old thing about the safe, even nonsense. Uh, Alaa Kahuta never got along with they’ll do with, uh the rather than Televen never really got along with Haleq Id even there there. And then it brings their destruction with the thing they said they would not do. They promised the Al Qaeda Wone Ki Moumin Binladin game. He promised he wouldn’t do either speeches or acts of terrorism. That was that was you know the agreement Lynndie Ledgett got there in 96. And of course that Kode Aug Robow was 9 11 which is a spectacular violation about even though it violate Id many other ways. And the idea these guys want these clowns back is crazy. It seems Sony or for that matter where they wanna go back there. I mean, if you’re Nakhai Ayt of Central, you’re in Pakistan, Lisieux, Knut the turf to pick up and go to one of the world’s most impoverished countries. It’s hostile all over the place in which the United States knows the turf of really well, because it’s been there for God knows how long Now, 20 years. Um, you probably are better off back in Pakistan. Yeah, all right, now. So your point Wone here? Well, no, actually stick with the Alll Kadir thing. I’m sorry. Jum Foner Um there are reports from time to time out of their where they say we killed a couple of Taliban and a couple of Al Qaeda guys were with him. Do you think there’s anything to that at all? Well, there are few in there. Yeah, the estimate, even of Ah, forget Huda Jos, Defense Secretary of United States a few years ago was there might be 100 or something. Ind Enel Kievian in the tide mixed in with the Taliban and the Taliban is tens of thousands. I mean, it’s just just just Mickey Mouse. They don’t run anything. Um, and the degree to which they’re connected is very, very tenuous, To say the least, the Taliban. Sony doesn’t need these clowns. Um, they’re Int Dera Nai. Did you know the Alll Kadir central in Pakistan is really not done very much since 9 11 Everything got spectacularly lucky, horribly lucky on 9 11 and Bin Idi Taliban is running their own show overwhelmingly. Yeah, um And now So here’s another point that Andrew McCarthy made, which goes straight to your point number one here that the U. S. A. Can’t defeat the Taliban exclamation point question marker Dawei Raan Well, and so, uh, that’s just not right. We gotta figure out a way. We should be able to figure out a way to send enough Infantry too, I guess not. Do it like the Democrats do it. Um, not Duaa Ah Petraeus surge. But some other kind of surge and hit these guys hard enough that they lose and you know, if we ca Gn defeat the Japanese empire. We can sure as hell defeat the Taliban. But you say no, we can’t. Not at a remotely acceptable cost. So why not then? If you want to nuke the whole country, maybe you could get it somewhere close to it. And they couldn’t defeat the Vietcong either. Don’t forget lost ignominiously after 55,000 American lives were there. And also, if you’re gonna say that Jatte Eoan put up front How many American lives do you think it’s worth to keep Eldad Atto Taliban from from Jidda Defeat to tell about. It’s like, very hard. It’s basically impossible If you look at Steve calls Book, for example on, uh uh uh on, uh, Pakistan just came out a couple of years ago. They basically can get out of the country anytime they want to go into Pakistan. Hayb resting, recuperating, come back. And there’s a border there between Pakistan and Afghanistan, which would take hundreds of thousands of troops. In fact, maybe they even that’s not enough to to basically clothes off. So they’ve got it. They’ve got a Safed, even themselves, in Pakistan. If, of course you won’t go to war in Pakistan, is Well, um, that, you know, send in troops there. You’re willing to commit World War Two type, uh, arsenals for this ridiculously unnecessary venture. You might you might have a case, but I doubt you. Even at that, you’d have lots of problems. I mean, the Nai Seselj lost consistently. The American military is not defeated. Anybody, uh, since World War two, uh, except said is that, uh, opponents were which you’re basically pathetic. I mean, gangs of thugs Inpex in Panama and in Grenada and to a degree in Kosovo. And then the pathetic Armey of Saddam Hussein in into Goa Foer, Saddamists Ain Ds Armey had it was a perfect Lizza. Nas Wone Gheit put it at the time of the perfect enemy, it had no leadership, morale, Chac strategy or defenses. Otherwise it was really terrific. So they’re good at walking over. They basically have not won against any real opponent since nine. This instance in 1945 on Des So the idea that we can’t take we couldn’t do anything they want us is demented, It seems to me Yeah, well, especially for the Armey, because even in 1945 that was mostly the Reds and the Navy that did that. So you don’t even get credit for that one, right? All right now. Ah, well, they sure did help expand the British empire. 1,000,000 square miles of World War? No. So you got to give him that. Hey, guys, I know you’re going to love Will Greg’s new book We just published at the Libertarian Institute. No quarter. The Ravings of William Norman. Greg. It’s wonderful. It’s terrible. It’s devastating. You’ll laugh. You’ll get angry. Yul Ms Him. You’ll be inspired to Fight for Freedom with Perfect Cover Art by Scott Alberts and a brilliant introduction by Will’s great friend and protege, Thomas are bedlam. It is a fitting legacy for a brilliant man and nearly tireless defender of liberty. Get no quarter The ravings of William Norman Greg in paperback or kindle Awene Amazon dot com. I guess so Here is Bill, Rodeo was quoted in this CNN piece, which claims, by the way, this is the greatest news ever is. The headline is here Ah Trump to meet security officials on Afghanistan, and they have a lot of quotes from Petraeus and other hawks saying we have to stay, but at the end here, they say. Sources say this could happen. August 19th. Afghanistan’s Independence Day is when Khalil Zahd is planning to put the ink on the final deal with the Taliban. Itsu we’ll draw Goa Well, Yeah, Gidi Kabbi Faina. Not the final deal Final deal, but to be the next big step. Which American Drawdown Ind forces? Yes. And numbers were like September 1st. Yes, certainly not. Ah, deal between the Taliban and ah, the Afghan national government there in Kabul. Awal, though, is there. You’re saying that there was still be another few steps to the negotiations between the US and the Taliban after this deal? Yeah, well, the the regime in the Khalq, Albar was already put together a negotiating team and the next Id Emet Dem Ain thing Televen months of the Americans out after that. Then you know, he started dealing with the Globo government and I said, Yeah, so there’s a lot of steps. I mean, basically, we argue in this case for the immediate thing is essentially what they seem to be coming close to, which is a cease fire in place, which was which would keep the Taliban where they are Nic Laval government where it is. And the biggest hope would be that there’s this incredible exhaustion with this war among the Afghan people. There was a cease fire last year 92,018 in which there was basically period a few days and there’s no fighting and population was going all over the place talking to both sides saying Stop this stupid thing. Stop it! Stop it! Stop it! I mean, they just you know, you didn’t matter what side you’re talking about. They just want to get out of this war and let the Afghans settle it, preferably and hopefully peacefully. But it’s it’s obviously not an easy thing to do. Yeah, now I mean, of course, the Hawks air saying that Come on, Awal, we’re going to get here At best is a quote decent interval like in Vietnam, where the South Vietnamese will lose. But after we’ve left and nobody cares anymore and the same kind of thing here, and that the Taliban can’t be trusted. Of course they’re gonna you know, this amounts as Bill Rodeo was saying in this CNN piece from the Foundation for Defense of Democracies and I give him some credit cause as a hawk. At least he does know what he’s talking about. It is a real expert in the war, unlike a lot of these no nothing hawks. But he’s saying essentially correctly. I guess that America’s hanging her friends out to dry here, that if our army is not there to protect them, then the Afghan national government that we’ve built that is the people that we’ve backed in power are at risk. And how can we do such a thing? Well, we did in Vietnam. Now, have you noticed now that we’re bosom buddies with the communists in Vietnam against our Peroy Grotius pseudo enemies with the Chinese Um uh so did you enter the United States? Pulled out of Lebanon under Reagan in 1983 and pulled out of Somalia in 1993 92 93 under Clinton. Um, so it’s done that a lot and Ind Awal Alaa cases, including the one in Vietnam. The American people really accepted it. Oo are in some cases, actually demanded it. Um so the United States is pull out the rug, among other people, is the thing about when you’re in over your head But you know you should try to do is cut your losses and get out. And that’s what’s happened would be happening here that the Taliban take over the world will not come to an end. They will not invite Al Qaeda back. In fact, that’s gonna be part of the deal. Apparently, they’re gonna get a promise that I don’t think we even need to because they don’t want this disaster. Those bastards back, Um and, uh then the hope is that the Afghans will be able to work it out. There may be a decent interval. Decter, use that analogy. The Vietnam thing. It may just collapse in a couple of years and Taliban take over there. They’re not probably really strong enough to do that. Um, it depends on the Afghan army. Just totally collapses. Then maybe they could, in which case you’d have a Taliban there and that having the Taliban there and Rabeh Rove Lille Stable situation is better than this endless war that the people are protesting. Monde. In general, the Taliban have done a better job of governing Ind Aires. They’ve been in then in the extremely well funded and unbelievably corrupt government we’ve got Steve Hawl. That’s when anything just sort of be a pity me. Unbelievable epitome of corruption. Ah, there there are Afghan prisoners, Afghan soldiers who are starving to death in hospitals in Kabul because the money, too it was there to provide food for them has been stolen by the administrators. That’s the wonderful administration were fighting and dying for. Um, you know, there was this study. I’m not sure if you guys noticed this. It came out. I’m pretty sure one year ago by a lady named Ashley Jackson Huu had been traveling all around the Taliban dominated areas of the country and she talked about ever since. How ever since the I don’t know if it was the CIA or the military killed the previous Taliban leader in a drone strike that the new guy Ah forget how to say his name. Aq Ons otta, Hakan Ds Odiz something that that he’s really changed their strategy to very much a counterinsurgency doctrine type of a way of doing things only Natta Pathetic joke like when McChrystal Petraeus try it. But instead, for example, he said, instead of attacking the schools or the police chiefs or the mayor’s or whatever we will just take over. All of these institutions will just have Taliban teachers in the schools that the Americans built on. We’ll just make sure that Awene Lee a Taliban Ge I can get the job as police chief or someone who’s loyal to them. Cannes get the job as police chief in this town or the other. So, in other words, they’re just usurping the entire structure of the government, such as America has been able to build in those parts of the country rather than fighting against them, that this has been a huge advantage for them, and this is a big part of what’s responsible for them going toe controlling 40 to 60% of the country in about a year. They’re right Non Ihsan population. But out of the country, yeah, the there’s been several reports coming out indicating that they were running the place. What were they run it. There’s a competition Int. They’re running it much less corruptly and much, Much more effectively, then is the government in couple if you can’t get its act together, is that really something we want to support? And trace himself? Admitted that that that was true that the people prefer their own traditional court systems and chiefs and whatever to the way we were doing it for right. Hang on just one second for me. Hey, guys, you know you probably need a new website. A lot of people do. What you need to do then, is Goa to expand designs dot com, the great Harley Abbott and his team over at expand designs dot com. They’ll hook you up with a great new website for 2019 and in fact, what you really should do his type Ind expand designs dot com slash scott, and you’ll save $500 now. I guess so. This really is kind of a problem politically, And I guess I’m really grateful that so far Trump is seems to be sticking to his guns, at least in terms of telling Khalil zahd to really see this through. I mean, if Khalis Izzat didn’t think that he had 100% support of the president this far, he would not have pushed things as faras. He had it all. I have to assume that it’s sort of speculation, but seems like they’ve really agreed that they really want to do this, but like we talked about, there’s a lot of problems, you know, capable of cropping up after we leave there. No one really knows how bad the war might get or whether a ceasefire might hold or might not have these kinds of things. And so it’s a really big risk. As James Mattis told him back when he announced the surge two years ago, Um, that, Hey, if anything bad happens after you leave, I’m gonna blame it on you. It’s gonna be your fault. And so we have to stay forever, essentially, and that worked two years ago. But that’s really what he’s up against. This is a big part of the problem back in Vietnam, right? Was you just politically speaking? No individual politician is willing to risk being weak on terrorism. So if that means killing Pas Pashtoon Ds from now on, then they’ll do that well. It was a lot of support among the American people for getting out. Of course, not only its trump seemed to be on that line, but so are virtually all the Democratic candidates for president. So and there’s no stomach in the United States air conditioning in this thing if it costs American lives further, Uh, the the Afghan thing I mean, the Vietnam Enel Ge really fits magnificently in this case. What happened, Wasat? That there was a decent interval. What you mentioned the United States got on 1973 and in 1975 2 years later, the Vietcong took over on the South Vietnamese. Fatah was not. It all ended in 55 days. So that was under Gerald Ford. That did. They agreed to Baku over in American political history before Ind. Policy history took place. The next year, he is up for reelection. 1919 76. Um, and I sat through that very carefully waiting for them to bring up Vietnam. And the only time in the whole campaign De Cannes did Vietnam even came up in the presidential debates was when Ford brought it up, He said, When I came into office in 1974 were still involved in the war in Southeast Asia. Now, where no Americans were fighting anywhere. Oumar Aymara not associate with any wars anywhere. In other words, he’s taking is a point of pride that he stood over this disaster in Vietnam, and instead of being Fitr thrown out for that, he was taking credit for it. And it was a big thing to it wasn’t just sort of a passing thing. It was in his prepared remarks, you know, either the beginning or the end of another one of the debates. Jimmy Carter’s opponent said, Well, let’s talk about farm price supports, you know? And I didn’t didn’t didn’t didn’t do anything about, uh, criticizing nor again, with the United States has gotten out of Lebanon. Azami mentioned and got out of Somalia, and there was no retribution to anybody. Uh, you know, either either Reagan First case or Clinton in a second. Yeah, well, and especially since he’s a Republican. And I think, you know, to some degree this whole argument that he somehow loyal toe Russia or some other you know, things in his own self in his own job is wearing off that maybe he really could. If he could wrap up Afghanistan, maybe you could get us out of Somalia again. We’ve been back there since 2000 Wone. Yeah, well, they’re they’re De Evo over the amount over there. It’s not with full troops and, you know, it’s It’s basically special forces and advising and drone strikes and things some of the United States is involved in a whole bunch of little dinky wars around. Harry did not their small Knut that they’re small words, but they’re developed involved in a Brearly small, um, profile in a number of them. Menagh Karsi Bolsa withdrawn Bilmes from Iraq and, ah, substantially from Afghanistan. There for a few Americans being killed anymore. Yes. Well, and you know, what do you like you say about Gerald Ford there? I mean, it goes to show that Nixon he got elected on a secret plan and the war anyway, so he probably could have pulled that same stunt right away instead of putting it off. But, um, in this case, it seems so obvious that if Trump wants to be reelected, that at least on the foreign policy Fronta Well, never mind his trade stuff, but well, yeah, what he does have to brag about, he has a lot to not brag about. But what he does have to brag about is, for example, trying to make peace with North Korea, whether it gets any further by election day, I don’t care. That’s still the best thing about him so far. And then if he really could pull troops all the way out of Afghanistan and America’s involvement in that war to a real degree like that and wants to run Awene I ended the Afghan Maura that kind of thing. And especially if he wants to go ahead and add Syria, Iraq and Somalia to the list, which he could do if he insisted he is the president, that’s the best way for him to get re elected. He probably back off Hiran a bit too. Baby, you’re not directly at war with Iran. But yes, that’s right. Well, maybe isn’t some sounds Yeah, I think that I think the remember gonna be another were no ensconced deeply in the end what I called a long time ago the Iraqs syndrome and ah, like it the Vietnam Sinjar. Aigars, Let’s not do that again. Ah, and that was the syndrome continued after the Knut Hamamis utter defeat debacle in 1975. And I think the syndrome of continued, no matter what happens in Afghanistan, um, if if Americans are being killed, the real nightmare from my sample Ibn not be a Taliban takeover and we talk about that in this paper which is available online free from from Hato Um and, uh in other words, like after the Soviets left, they raided The country fell apart into this colossal disaster civil war which has finally put down by the Taliban in 1996. However, the these Soviet forces left, but they continue to support financially the government in Kabul and it stood on its feet for a few years until these the Soviets pulled out their financial support. So the suggestion on that is, if the United States Guen is continues to financially support the Afghan government, it’ll probably be able to hang in there for a while. Ah, and work out some sort of deal potentially with the Taliban way Guen find out. But it’s less likely than it seems to me that there’s gonna be this total disaster of Nutzis the Taliban. But everybody fighting everybody, warlords and so forth all over the country. But that that would be the time, Ersin Roshan. That would be the night Meretz community. It is possible the board of even worse than it is against that. You have to give You have to put up against, you know, Do you want to really want to continue this war every year after year after year after year after year? Um, and there is Azami saying Peace. There is a risk. Uh, that that would happen, but we think it’s manageable and pretty small. Yeah, well, you know, Azzam mentioned they took over much of the country, including the capital, in 1996. But at the time of the American intervention on the Northern Alliance aside, in 2000 and one at the end of 2000 won, the Taliban still had not consolidated control over the whole country after five years after taking the capital. So they presumably have Cem institutional memory of how much it takes to try to dominate in those areas. And they’ve been able to see just how hard it’s been for the Tajiks Andew specs and the Hazaras to dominate them in their own land this whole time. And you know Matthew Ho, the State Department whistleblower, former Marine Corps captain and all that from the Afghan work. Uh, he talked about how, you know, in the nineties it was the U s Saudi and Pakistan were supporting the Taliban and encouraging them. The bill Clinton’s State Department’s even on the record, saying they didn’t want a peace deal. They wanted the Taliban to completely defeat the Northern Alliance and consolidate control over the entire country. And they were backing Pakistan’s policy in helping to make that happen. But in this case, presumably we would not have that. And the Pakistanis at America’s request, Ah, would be, ah telling the Taliban, Listen, we’ll support you up to here, but no further, hopefully kind of thing, right? So maybe that really it’s optimistic. Take. But maybe that really could make the difference in drawing a line of autonomy with the Taliban. Get to rule Pashtunistan. But the other factions get to rule where their populations, you know, have grassroots support for them. Yeah, there’s a consider a lot of evidence that television has become more pragmatic and less ideological. Lior religiously severe. Um and, uh, they, including some of the people that have pointed to the negotiating table. Wone Ge I basically was arrested 10 years ago, one of the one of the Taliban people’s risk by the Pakistanis 10 years ago, because he was working to get a peace deal in Afghanistan. Now, under the pressure of the Americans, Um, the Pakistanis have a released him, and he’s not the lead negotiator Neads general regard as being very you know, he was very much a crony of, uh, of, uh of Omar at the beginning. Um, but, uh, he’s, you know, he’s in other words, he’s a true believer in many respects, but he’s also very pragmatic and sensible. So then they seem to be other people negotiating team experts point out, that have similar points of view. There has also been some indications that the Taliban is willing to even compromise Atiya degree on women’s rights and things like that. So, um, you know, if they can get out of this war cleanly and have a complicated governmental structure in other words, no out of regionalism, which has always been the case in Afghanistan anyway, there might be a solution that Afghans can work out an American’s AirProd Lee, incapable of putting together anyway and also they had just plain that the biggest recruiting device for the Taliban has been we’ve been invaded by the Westerners and they want to destroy us if the Americans they’re not they’re in the military form that that recruitment, um uh, slogan will have far less effect. And it does now. Well, you know, you also have ah, 0.4 in your piece here. Defeat in Afghanistan would not necessarily destabilize the region. And I think, um, you know, as we’re talking about, even if the Taliban took over the whole country, indications lately are that the Russians and the Iranians, who historically have, of course, hated the Taliban and their side in this whole thing are now looking at them as the moderate rebels compared to the Islamic state there. And so it looks like there’s a possibility not just for the U. S, but really for the regional allies. Even if the U. S was gone to have their own little awakening movement there will support the local Sunni based insurgency as long as you get rid of the foreign fighters for us. And that was the smartest thing anybody did in this war. Ah, this whole 20 years was when Petraeus accepted the Sunnis offer of ceasefire there in 2007. Maybe something like that could be replaced. Yeah, they’re the hostility toward the Isis group is intense and it effects both Russia and China. Huu have Islamist extremists concerns within their own countries, um and as well as potentially the countries like Pakistan. And so in many respects, a stable Afghan and also the China wants to use Afghanistan for part of its Silk Road initiatives in a great built Beltsville Odiz initiative. So it basically and Iran doesn’t need that kind of chaos on its border either. And in Pakistan also is a down and out earlier had seems to be on board as well. So you got pretty much everybody all the countries in the area I would really like to see this thing ended and some sort of stable if, ah type of government and and ah, arrangement to be worked out there. So the idea I mean this this idea that the Taliban is going to collapse is take over and then bring back Al Qaeda and then I’ll join Enel attack, you know, Pakistan and take over the nuclear weapons and so forth. Eni just unbelievable way Worse case scenario fantasies being thrown around, including by Petraeus and some respects and certainly Bayh also by Max Boot Sattar Sidon. I just think it’s just doesn’t make any sense to me. Yeah. Um well, you got my vote. Uh, sounds pretty good here. Ah, and it Very well put together piece as always, by you guys over there. Atto Deeq Ayt of foreign policy department. Not sure what’s going on and some of those other departments, but ah Anyway, um Mises Great work here. Overcoming inertia. Why, it’s time to end the war in Afghanistan. Very convincing. Very well put together piece here. So thank you again for coming on the show to talk about. Okay, thanks very much. Thank you much, don’t you guys? That’s John Mueller. He’s at cato dot or Ge. He wrote this with the great John Glaser. It’s called Overcoming Inertia. Why, it’s time to end the war in Afghanistan. All right, Shell. Thanks. Find me at Libertarian Institute dot or Ge at scott Kortan dot or Ge antiwar dot com and reddit dot com slash scott Horton Show. Oh, yeah, And read my book Fool’s Errand Timed and the War in Afghanistan at Fool’s errand dot us

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Alan Kuperman explains the true story of the 2011 civil war in Libya, which the United States famously and disastrously supported. Contrary to the narrative that this uprising was started by regular, educated citizens like doctors and lawyers, Kuperman and his research assistants discovered that the key actors fomenting revolution were actually Al-Qaeda veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan. Kuperman reflects on the dangers of reckless use of American military force throughout the years.

Discussed on the show:

• “America’s Little-Known Mission to Support Al Qaeda’s Role in Libya” (The National Interest)
• “False pretense for war in Libya?” (The Boston Globe)
• “Did the R2P Foster Violence in Libya?” (Genocide Studies and Prevention)
• “Hillary Clinton Libya war genocide narrative rejected by U.S. intelligence” (Washington Times)

Alan J. Kuperman is a professor of public affairs at UT Austin and the author of The Limits of Humanitarian Intervention: Genocide in Rwanda. He co-edited Gambling on Humanitarian Intervention: Moral Hazard, Rebellion and Civil War and has written for The National Interest, The Boston Globe, The Washington Post, and others.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; Washinton Babylon; Liberty Under Attack Publications; Listen and Think Audio; TheBumperSticker.com; and LibertyStickers.com.

Donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal, or Bitcoin: 1KGye7S3pk7XXJT6TzrbFephGDbdhYznTa.

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Max Blumenthal explains how the policies of the Obama administration, pushed by Joe Biden in particular, have fueled the migration crisis in Latin America we see today. Notably, America gave material support to the Colombian regime that massacred thousands of innocent civilians and dressed them as guerrilla revolutionaries in order to claim they were winning the war, and thereby get more aid from the U.S. Biden also supported brutal regimes in Honduras, El Salvador, and other countries, whose instability have caused millions of people to flee their homes for America’s southern border. The ultimate irony is that in this sense, Biden’s policies were directly responsible for the election of Donald Trump.

Discussed on the show:

• “Joe Biden Fueled the Latin American Migration Crisis” (Consortium News)
• Plan Colombia
• “False positives” scandal
• “Will Hunter Biden Jeopardize His Father’s Campaign? | The New Yorker” (The New Yorker)
• “Opinion | Joe Biden: A Plan for Central America” (The New York Times)
• “‘The coup turned Honduras into hell’: President Manuel Zelaya on 10th anniversary of overthrow by US” (YouTube)

Director and writer of “Killing Gaza,” Max Blumenthal is a senior editor of the Grayzone Project and the author Goliath, Republican Gomorrah, and The 51 Day War. Follow Max on Twitter @MaxBlumenthal.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Kesslyn Runs, by Charles Featherstone; NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; and LibertyStickers.com.

Donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal, or Bitcoin: 1KGye7S3pk7XXJT6TzrbFephGDbdhYznTa.

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Scott talks to Jim Bovard about Bill Clinton’s bombing campaign in Serbia twenty years ago, which at the time was widely heralded as a triumph of the “forces of good.” It was also, apparently, something that Bill Clinton did as a way to appease Hillary after the fallout from the Monica Lewinsky scandal. The entire narrative of “ethnic cleansing” that was put forth as justification for American intervention turned out later to have been overblown, with, in actual fact, casualties (and some atrocities) on both sides of the civil war but little evidence for the purported one-sided genocide.

Discussed on the show:

• “America’s Benevolent Bombing of Serbia” (Future of Freedom Foundation)
• Hillary’s Choice
• “Hillary Clinton-Style Social-Worker Liberalism Has Some Dark Areas” (LA Times)
• Rambouillet Agreement
• Feeling Your Pain: The Explosion and Abuse of Government Power in the Clinton-Gore Years
• Khobar Towers bombing
• 1998 United States embassy bombings
• Camp Bondsteel

Jim Bovard is a columnist for USA Today and the author of Public Policy Hooligan: Rollicking and Wrangling from Helltown to Washington. Find all of his books and read his work on his website and follow him on Twitter @JimBovard.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Kesslyn Runs, by Charles Featherstone; NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; and LibertyStickers.com.

Donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal, or Bitcoin: 1KGye7S3pk7XXJT6TzrbFephGDbdhYznTa.

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Nasser Arrabyee discusses the latest Saudi war crime against Yemeni civilians, the bombing of a family on the first day of Eid al-Adha. He also gives a summary of the last few months of the horrific war there, replete with complex political nuances that will not be resolved by a simple and total military victory. The war goes on only because the United States government continues to lend material support to the Saudis and will not openly condemn the conflict.

Discussed on the show:

• Nasser Arrabyee on Twitter

Nasser Arrabyee is a Yemeni journalist based in Sana’a, Yemen. He is the owner and director of yemen-now.com. You can follow him on Twitter @narrabyee.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Kesslyn Runs, by Charles Featherstone; NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; and LibertyStickers.com.

Donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal, or Bitcoin: 1KGye7S3pk7XXJT6TzrbFephGDbdhYznTa.

Podcast: Play in new window | Download