Scott interviews Cato’s John Mueller about why it’s time to leave Afghanistan. Fundamentally, the Taliban cannot be defeated at any remotely acceptable cost of American lives and U.S. dollars, says Mueller, and at the same time military interventions has only made the Al-Qaeda problem—America’s original enemies—even worse. Fortunately, it seems like President Trump might see ending the war in Afghanistan as a possible path to reelection.

Discussed on the show:

John Mueller is a senior fellow at the Cato Institute and a senior research scientist with the Mershon Center for International Security Studies at Ohio State University. He is the author of Overblown: How Politicians and the Terrorism Industry Inflate National Security Threats, and Why We Believe Them Atomic Obsession: Nuclear Alarmism from Hiroshima to Al-Qaeda, and many others. Follow his work at the Cato Institute.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty ClassroomExpandDesigns.com/ScottWashinton BabylonLiberty Under Attack PublicationsListen and Think AudioTheBumperSticker.com; and LibertyStickers.com.

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Following is an auto-generated transcript of the episode.

sorry I’m late. I had to stop by the wax museum again and give the finger that f d r. We know Al Qaeda. Zawahiri is supporting the opposition in Syria. Are we supporting Al Qaeda in Syria? It’s a proud day for America. I got kicked Knut Gnehm syndrome once and for all. Thank you very much, I say. And I see it again. Bin are trying to simply deny things just about everybody else except as fact Saud died way Kila, Bayh, Armey Khaleeq Illing Maale way Bol Beito like, say, I’m a Bin Say it say it three times the meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world. Then that’s going to be an invasion Id Dohuk. All right, you guys introducing John E. Mueller from Kato. And, uh, he’s one of the greats in their foreign policy department there he’s the author of Overblown and Atomic Obsession. Terror, Security and money. Capitalism and democracy. That’s interesting. Um, policy, An opinion in the Gulf War. Boy, I wish I could take a summer off and catch up on all this stuff. Ah, How are you doing? Welcome back To show, John. Thanks. Nice to be here. Happy to have you here. And especially on the occasion of you and John Glaser, my good friend writing this wonderful thing about. Well, if I could quote from your subtitle here Time to end the war in Afghanistan. Boy, that sure sounds familiar. Uh, we found a book called Fools Hrant, which is very helpful in various places. Oh, that’s good. You looked at that, huh? All right, well, so you guys sure have a ah Minni book length sort of treaties here. Policy analysis, overcoming inertia. It’s called, and we’re running it at antiwar dot com, I think today. Great. Um and, ah, course. John Glaser, former editor in antiwar dot com. Good friend of self. Um, and you guys start out with Barack Obama saying, Hey, it’s pretty easy to imagine a situation where I leave it on auto pilot for the next guy here. You’re saying that in 2010 time is up. Yeah. Um, all right, you know what? So let me try to do this since, uh, you read my book and I read this thing. I didn’t read the whole thing, but, ah, the the HTML version you have here not the pdf, but, um, let me start with, uh, Andrew McCarthy over at the National Review saying that you know what? I don’t care how tired out you are from Awal Bushian Obama’s Ms Takes elsewhere in the Middle East. We still just can not give up this fight or else Al Qaeda will come back. The Taliban will laugh in our face and will allow them to come back. And the next thing you know they’ll be knocking our towers down again. Yeah, it is that is that Is that recently? Yeah. I was, uh, just a couple weeks ago are actually last week, I think. Yeah, well, the same old thing about the safe, even nonsense. Uh, Alaa Kahuta never got along with they’ll do with, uh the rather than Televen never really got along with Haleq Id even there there. And then it brings their destruction with the thing they said they would not do. They promised the Al Qaeda Wone Ki Moumin Binladin game. He promised he wouldn’t do either speeches or acts of terrorism. That was that was you know the agreement Lynndie Ledgett got there in 96. And of course that Kode Aug Robow was 9 11 which is a spectacular violation about even though it violate Id many other ways. And the idea these guys want these clowns back is crazy. It seems Sony or for that matter where they wanna go back there. I mean, if you’re Nakhai Ayt of Central, you’re in Pakistan, Lisieux, Knut the turf to pick up and go to one of the world’s most impoverished countries. It’s hostile all over the place in which the United States knows the turf of really well, because it’s been there for God knows how long Now, 20 years. Um, you probably are better off back in Pakistan. Yeah, all right, now. So your point Wone here? Well, no, actually stick with the Alll Kadir thing. I’m sorry. Jum Foner Um there are reports from time to time out of their where they say we killed a couple of Taliban and a couple of Al Qaeda guys were with him. Do you think there’s anything to that at all? Well, there are few in there. Yeah, the estimate, even of Ah, forget Huda Jos, Defense Secretary of United States a few years ago was there might be 100 or something. Ind Enel Kievian in the tide mixed in with the Taliban and the Taliban is tens of thousands. I mean, it’s just just just Mickey Mouse. They don’t run anything. Um, and the degree to which they’re connected is very, very tenuous, To say the least, the Taliban. Sony doesn’t need these clowns. Um, they’re Int Dera Nai. Did you know the Alll Kadir central in Pakistan is really not done very much since 9 11 Everything got spectacularly lucky, horribly lucky on 9 11 and Bin Idi Taliban is running their own show overwhelmingly. Yeah, um And now So here’s another point that Andrew McCarthy made, which goes straight to your point number one here that the U. S. A. Can’t defeat the Taliban exclamation point question marker Dawei Raan Well, and so, uh, that’s just not right. We gotta figure out a way. We should be able to figure out a way to send enough Infantry too, I guess not. Do it like the Democrats do it. Um, not Duaa Ah Petraeus surge. But some other kind of surge and hit these guys hard enough that they lose and you know, if we ca Gn defeat the Japanese empire. We can sure as hell defeat the Taliban. But you say no, we can’t. Not at a remotely acceptable cost. So why not then? If you want to nuke the whole country, maybe you could get it somewhere close to it. And they couldn’t defeat the Vietcong either. Don’t forget lost ignominiously after 55,000 American lives were there. And also, if you’re gonna say that Jatte Eoan put up front How many American lives do you think it’s worth to keep Eldad Atto Taliban from from Jidda Defeat to tell about. It’s like, very hard. It’s basically impossible If you look at Steve calls Book, for example on, uh uh uh on, uh, Pakistan just came out a couple of years ago. They basically can get out of the country anytime they want to go into Pakistan. Hayb resting, recuperating, come back. And there’s a border there between Pakistan and Afghanistan, which would take hundreds of thousands of troops. In fact, maybe they even that’s not enough to to basically clothes off. So they’ve got it. They’ve got a Safed, even themselves, in Pakistan. If, of course you won’t go to war in Pakistan, is Well, um, that, you know, send in troops there. You’re willing to commit World War Two type, uh, arsenals for this ridiculously unnecessary venture. You might you might have a case, but I doubt you. Even at that, you’d have lots of problems. I mean, the Nai Seselj lost consistently. The American military is not defeated. Anybody, uh, since World War two, uh, except said is that, uh, opponents were which you’re basically pathetic. I mean, gangs of thugs Inpex in Panama and in Grenada and to a degree in Kosovo. And then the pathetic Armey of Saddam Hussein in into Goa Foer, Saddamists Ain Ds Armey had it was a perfect Lizza. Nas Wone Gheit put it at the time of the perfect enemy, it had no leadership, morale, Chac strategy or defenses. Otherwise it was really terrific. So they’re good at walking over. They basically have not won against any real opponent since nine. This instance in 1945 on Des So the idea that we can’t take we couldn’t do anything they want us is demented, It seems to me Yeah, well, especially for the Armey, because even in 1945 that was mostly the Reds and the Navy that did that. So you don’t even get credit for that one, right? All right now. Ah, well, they sure did help expand the British empire. 1,000,000 square miles of World War? No. So you got to give him that. Hey, guys, I know you’re going to love Will Greg’s new book We just published at the Libertarian Institute. No quarter. The Ravings of William Norman. Greg. It’s wonderful. It’s terrible. It’s devastating. You’ll laugh. You’ll get angry. Yul Ms Him. You’ll be inspired to Fight for Freedom with Perfect Cover Art by Scott Alberts and a brilliant introduction by Will’s great friend and protege, Thomas are bedlam. It is a fitting legacy for a brilliant man and nearly tireless defender of liberty. Get no quarter The ravings of William Norman Greg in paperback or kindle Awene Amazon dot com. I guess so Here is Bill, Rodeo was quoted in this CNN piece, which claims, by the way, this is the greatest news ever is. The headline is here Ah Trump to meet security officials on Afghanistan, and they have a lot of quotes from Petraeus and other hawks saying we have to stay, but at the end here, they say. Sources say this could happen. August 19th. Afghanistan’s Independence Day is when Khalil Zahd is planning to put the ink on the final deal with the Taliban. Itsu we’ll draw Goa Well, Yeah, Gidi Kabbi Faina. Not the final deal Final deal, but to be the next big step. Which American Drawdown Ind forces? Yes. And numbers were like September 1st. Yes, certainly not. Ah, deal between the Taliban and ah, the Afghan national government there in Kabul. Awal, though, is there. You’re saying that there was still be another few steps to the negotiations between the US and the Taliban after this deal? Yeah, well, the the regime in the Khalq, Albar was already put together a negotiating team and the next Id Emet Dem Ain thing Televen months of the Americans out after that. Then you know, he started dealing with the Globo government and I said, Yeah, so there’s a lot of steps. I mean, basically, we argue in this case for the immediate thing is essentially what they seem to be coming close to, which is a cease fire in place, which was which would keep the Taliban where they are Nic Laval government where it is. And the biggest hope would be that there’s this incredible exhaustion with this war among the Afghan people. There was a cease fire last year 92,018 in which there was basically period a few days and there’s no fighting and population was going all over the place talking to both sides saying Stop this stupid thing. Stop it! Stop it! Stop it! I mean, they just you know, you didn’t matter what side you’re talking about. They just want to get out of this war and let the Afghans settle it, preferably and hopefully peacefully. But it’s it’s obviously not an easy thing to do. Yeah, now I mean, of course, the Hawks air saying that Come on, Awal, we’re going to get here At best is a quote decent interval like in Vietnam, where the South Vietnamese will lose. But after we’ve left and nobody cares anymore and the same kind of thing here, and that the Taliban can’t be trusted. Of course they’re gonna you know, this amounts as Bill Rodeo was saying in this CNN piece from the Foundation for Defense of Democracies and I give him some credit cause as a hawk. At least he does know what he’s talking about. It is a real expert in the war, unlike a lot of these no nothing hawks. But he’s saying essentially correctly. I guess that America’s hanging her friends out to dry here, that if our army is not there to protect them, then the Afghan national government that we’ve built that is the people that we’ve backed in power are at risk. And how can we do such a thing? Well, we did in Vietnam. Now, have you noticed now that we’re bosom buddies with the communists in Vietnam against our Peroy Grotius pseudo enemies with the Chinese Um uh so did you enter the United States? Pulled out of Lebanon under Reagan in 1983 and pulled out of Somalia in 1993 92 93 under Clinton. Um, so it’s done that a lot and Ind Awal Alaa cases, including the one in Vietnam. The American people really accepted it. Oo are in some cases, actually demanded it. Um so the United States is pull out the rug, among other people, is the thing about when you’re in over your head But you know you should try to do is cut your losses and get out. And that’s what’s happened would be happening here that the Taliban take over the world will not come to an end. They will not invite Al Qaeda back. In fact, that’s gonna be part of the deal. Apparently, they’re gonna get a promise that I don’t think we even need to because they don’t want this disaster. Those bastards back, Um and, uh then the hope is that the Afghans will be able to work it out. There may be a decent interval. Decter, use that analogy. The Vietnam thing. It may just collapse in a couple of years and Taliban take over there. They’re not probably really strong enough to do that. Um, it depends on the Afghan army. Just totally collapses. Then maybe they could, in which case you’d have a Taliban there and that having the Taliban there and Rabeh Rove Lille Stable situation is better than this endless war that the people are protesting. Monde. In general, the Taliban have done a better job of governing Ind Aires. They’ve been in then in the extremely well funded and unbelievably corrupt government we’ve got Steve Hawl. That’s when anything just sort of be a pity me. Unbelievable epitome of corruption. Ah, there there are Afghan prisoners, Afghan soldiers who are starving to death in hospitals in Kabul because the money, too it was there to provide food for them has been stolen by the administrators. That’s the wonderful administration were fighting and dying for. Um, you know, there was this study. I’m not sure if you guys noticed this. It came out. I’m pretty sure one year ago by a lady named Ashley Jackson Huu had been traveling all around the Taliban dominated areas of the country and she talked about ever since. How ever since the I don’t know if it was the CIA or the military killed the previous Taliban leader in a drone strike that the new guy Ah forget how to say his name. Aq Ons otta, Hakan Ds Odiz something that that he’s really changed their strategy to very much a counterinsurgency doctrine type of a way of doing things only Natta Pathetic joke like when McChrystal Petraeus try it. But instead, for example, he said, instead of attacking the schools or the police chiefs or the mayor’s or whatever we will just take over. All of these institutions will just have Taliban teachers in the schools that the Americans built on. We’ll just make sure that Awene Lee a Taliban Ge I can get the job as police chief or someone who’s loyal to them. Cannes get the job as police chief in this town or the other. So, in other words, they’re just usurping the entire structure of the government, such as America has been able to build in those parts of the country rather than fighting against them, that this has been a huge advantage for them, and this is a big part of what’s responsible for them going toe controlling 40 to 60% of the country in about a year. They’re right Non Ihsan population. But out of the country, yeah, the there’s been several reports coming out indicating that they were running the place. What were they run it. There’s a competition Int. They’re running it much less corruptly and much, Much more effectively, then is the government in couple if you can’t get its act together, is that really something we want to support? And trace himself? Admitted that that that was true that the people prefer their own traditional court systems and chiefs and whatever to the way we were doing it for right. Hang on just one second for me. Hey, guys, you know you probably need a new website. A lot of people do. What you need to do then, is Goa to expand designs dot com, the great Harley Abbott and his team over at expand designs dot com. They’ll hook you up with a great new website for 2019 and in fact, what you really should do his type Ind expand designs dot com slash scott, and you’ll save $500 now. I guess so. This really is kind of a problem politically, And I guess I’m really grateful that so far Trump is seems to be sticking to his guns, at least in terms of telling Khalil zahd to really see this through. I mean, if Khalis Izzat didn’t think that he had 100% support of the president this far, he would not have pushed things as faras. He had it all. I have to assume that it’s sort of speculation, but seems like they’ve really agreed that they really want to do this, but like we talked about, there’s a lot of problems, you know, capable of cropping up after we leave there. No one really knows how bad the war might get or whether a ceasefire might hold or might not have these kinds of things. And so it’s a really big risk. As James Mattis told him back when he announced the surge two years ago, Um, that, Hey, if anything bad happens after you leave, I’m gonna blame it on you. It’s gonna be your fault. And so we have to stay forever, essentially, and that worked two years ago. But that’s really what he’s up against. This is a big part of the problem back in Vietnam, right? Was you just politically speaking? No individual politician is willing to risk being weak on terrorism. So if that means killing Pas Pashtoon Ds from now on, then they’ll do that well. It was a lot of support among the American people for getting out. Of course, not only its trump seemed to be on that line, but so are virtually all the Democratic candidates for president. So and there’s no stomach in the United States air conditioning in this thing if it costs American lives further, Uh, the the Afghan thing I mean, the Vietnam Enel Ge really fits magnificently in this case. What happened, Wasat? That there was a decent interval. What you mentioned the United States got on 1973 and in 1975 2 years later, the Vietcong took over on the South Vietnamese. Fatah was not. It all ended in 55 days. So that was under Gerald Ford. That did. They agreed to Baku over in American political history before Ind. Policy history took place. The next year, he is up for reelection. 1919 76. Um, and I sat through that very carefully waiting for them to bring up Vietnam. And the only time in the whole campaign De Cannes did Vietnam even came up in the presidential debates was when Ford brought it up, He said, When I came into office in 1974 were still involved in the war in Southeast Asia. Now, where no Americans were fighting anywhere. Oumar Aymara not associate with any wars anywhere. In other words, he’s taking is a point of pride that he stood over this disaster in Vietnam, and instead of being Fitr thrown out for that, he was taking credit for it. And it was a big thing to it wasn’t just sort of a passing thing. It was in his prepared remarks, you know, either the beginning or the end of another one of the debates. Jimmy Carter’s opponent said, Well, let’s talk about farm price supports, you know? And I didn’t didn’t didn’t didn’t do anything about, uh, criticizing nor again, with the United States has gotten out of Lebanon. Azami mentioned and got out of Somalia, and there was no retribution to anybody. Uh, you know, either either Reagan First case or Clinton in a second. Yeah, well, and especially since he’s a Republican. And I think, you know, to some degree this whole argument that he somehow loyal toe Russia or some other you know, things in his own self in his own job is wearing off that maybe he really could. If he could wrap up Afghanistan, maybe you could get us out of Somalia again. We’ve been back there since 2000 Wone. Yeah, well, they’re they’re De Evo over the amount over there. It’s not with full troops and, you know, it’s It’s basically special forces and advising and drone strikes and things some of the United States is involved in a whole bunch of little dinky wars around. Harry did not their small Knut that they’re small words, but they’re developed involved in a Brearly small, um, profile in a number of them. Menagh Karsi Bolsa withdrawn Bilmes from Iraq and, ah, substantially from Afghanistan. There for a few Americans being killed anymore. Yes. Well, and you know, what do you like you say about Gerald Ford there? I mean, it goes to show that Nixon he got elected on a secret plan and the war anyway, so he probably could have pulled that same stunt right away instead of putting it off. But, um, in this case, it seems so obvious that if Trump wants to be reelected, that at least on the foreign policy Fronta Well, never mind his trade stuff, but well, yeah, what he does have to brag about, he has a lot to not brag about. But what he does have to brag about is, for example, trying to make peace with North Korea, whether it gets any further by election day, I don’t care. That’s still the best thing about him so far. And then if he really could pull troops all the way out of Afghanistan and America’s involvement in that war to a real degree like that and wants to run Awene I ended the Afghan Maura that kind of thing. And especially if he wants to go ahead and add Syria, Iraq and Somalia to the list, which he could do if he insisted he is the president, that’s the best way for him to get re elected. He probably back off Hiran a bit too. Baby, you’re not directly at war with Iran. But yes, that’s right. Well, maybe isn’t some sounds Yeah, I think that I think the remember gonna be another were no ensconced deeply in the end what I called a long time ago the Iraqs syndrome and ah, like it the Vietnam Sinjar. Aigars, Let’s not do that again. Ah, and that was the syndrome continued after the Knut Hamamis utter defeat debacle in 1975. And I think the syndrome of continued, no matter what happens in Afghanistan, um, if if Americans are being killed, the real nightmare from my sample Ibn not be a Taliban takeover and we talk about that in this paper which is available online free from from Hato Um and, uh in other words, like after the Soviets left, they raided The country fell apart into this colossal disaster civil war which has finally put down by the Taliban in 1996. However, the these Soviet forces left, but they continue to support financially the government in Kabul and it stood on its feet for a few years until these the Soviets pulled out their financial support. So the suggestion on that is, if the United States Guen is continues to financially support the Afghan government, it’ll probably be able to hang in there for a while. Ah, and work out some sort of deal potentially with the Taliban way Guen find out. But it’s less likely than it seems to me that there’s gonna be this total disaster of Nutzis the Taliban. But everybody fighting everybody, warlords and so forth all over the country. But that that would be the time, Ersin Roshan. That would be the night Meretz community. It is possible the board of even worse than it is against that. You have to give You have to put up against, you know, Do you want to really want to continue this war every year after year after year after year after year? Um, and there is Azami saying Peace. There is a risk. Uh, that that would happen, but we think it’s manageable and pretty small. Yeah, well, you know, Azzam mentioned they took over much of the country, including the capital, in 1996. But at the time of the American intervention on the Northern Alliance aside, in 2000 and one at the end of 2000 won, the Taliban still had not consolidated control over the whole country after five years after taking the capital. So they presumably have Cem institutional memory of how much it takes to try to dominate in those areas. And they’ve been able to see just how hard it’s been for the Tajiks Andew specs and the Hazaras to dominate them in their own land this whole time. And you know Matthew Ho, the State Department whistleblower, former Marine Corps captain and all that from the Afghan work. Uh, he talked about how, you know, in the nineties it was the U s Saudi and Pakistan were supporting the Taliban and encouraging them. The bill Clinton’s State Department’s even on the record, saying they didn’t want a peace deal. They wanted the Taliban to completely defeat the Northern Alliance and consolidate control over the entire country. And they were backing Pakistan’s policy in helping to make that happen. But in this case, presumably we would not have that. And the Pakistanis at America’s request, Ah, would be, ah telling the Taliban, Listen, we’ll support you up to here, but no further, hopefully kind of thing, right? So maybe that really it’s optimistic. Take. But maybe that really could make the difference in drawing a line of autonomy with the Taliban. Get to rule Pashtunistan. But the other factions get to rule where their populations, you know, have grassroots support for them. Yeah, there’s a consider a lot of evidence that television has become more pragmatic and less ideological. Lior religiously severe. Um and, uh, they, including some of the people that have pointed to the negotiating table. Wone Ge I basically was arrested 10 years ago, one of the one of the Taliban people’s risk by the Pakistanis 10 years ago, because he was working to get a peace deal in Afghanistan. Now, under the pressure of the Americans, Um, the Pakistanis have a released him, and he’s not the lead negotiator Neads general regard as being very you know, he was very much a crony of, uh, of, uh of Omar at the beginning. Um, but, uh, he’s, you know, he’s in other words, he’s a true believer in many respects, but he’s also very pragmatic and sensible. So then they seem to be other people negotiating team experts point out, that have similar points of view. There has also been some indications that the Taliban is willing to even compromise Atiya degree on women’s rights and things like that. So, um, you know, if they can get out of this war cleanly and have a complicated governmental structure in other words, no out of regionalism, which has always been the case in Afghanistan anyway, there might be a solution that Afghans can work out an American’s AirProd Lee, incapable of putting together anyway and also they had just plain that the biggest recruiting device for the Taliban has been we’ve been invaded by the Westerners and they want to destroy us if the Americans they’re not they’re in the military form that that recruitment, um uh, slogan will have far less effect. And it does now. Well, you know, you also have ah, 0.4 in your piece here. Defeat in Afghanistan would not necessarily destabilize the region. And I think, um, you know, as we’re talking about, even if the Taliban took over the whole country, indications lately are that the Russians and the Iranians, who historically have, of course, hated the Taliban and their side in this whole thing are now looking at them as the moderate rebels compared to the Islamic state there. And so it looks like there’s a possibility not just for the U. S, but really for the regional allies. Even if the U. S was gone to have their own little awakening movement there will support the local Sunni based insurgency as long as you get rid of the foreign fighters for us. And that was the smartest thing anybody did in this war. Ah, this whole 20 years was when Petraeus accepted the Sunnis offer of ceasefire there in 2007. Maybe something like that could be replaced. Yeah, they’re the hostility toward the Isis group is intense and it effects both Russia and China. Huu have Islamist extremists concerns within their own countries, um and as well as potentially the countries like Pakistan. And so in many respects, a stable Afghan and also the China wants to use Afghanistan for part of its Silk Road initiatives in a great built Beltsville Odiz initiative. So it basically and Iran doesn’t need that kind of chaos on its border either. And in Pakistan also is a down and out earlier had seems to be on board as well. So you got pretty much everybody all the countries in the area I would really like to see this thing ended and some sort of stable if, ah type of government and and ah, arrangement to be worked out there. So the idea I mean this this idea that the Taliban is going to collapse is take over and then bring back Al Qaeda and then I’ll join Enel attack, you know, Pakistan and take over the nuclear weapons and so forth. Eni just unbelievable way Worse case scenario fantasies being thrown around, including by Petraeus and some respects and certainly Bayh also by Max Boot Sattar Sidon. I just think it’s just doesn’t make any sense to me. Yeah. Um well, you got my vote. Uh, sounds pretty good here. Ah, and it Very well put together piece as always, by you guys over there. Atto Deeq Ayt of foreign policy department. Not sure what’s going on and some of those other departments, but ah Anyway, um Mises Great work here. Overcoming inertia. Why, it’s time to end the war in Afghanistan. Very convincing. Very well put together piece here. So thank you again for coming on the show to talk about. Okay, thanks very much. Thank you much, don’t you guys? That’s John Mueller. He’s at cato dot or Ge. He wrote this with the great John Glaser. It’s called Overcoming Inertia. Why, it’s time to end the war in Afghanistan. All right, Shell. Thanks. Find me at Libertarian Institute dot or Ge at scott Kortan dot or Ge antiwar dot com and reddit dot com slash scott Horton Show. Oh, yeah, And read my book Fool’s Errand Timed and the War in Afghanistan at Fool’s errand dot us

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