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I say it, I say it again.
You've been had.
You've been took.
You've been who's win?
These witnesses are trying to simply deny things that just about everybody else accepts as fact.
He came, he saw, he died.
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We be on CNN like Say Our Name, been saying it three times.
The meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world.
Then there's going to be an invasion.
All right, you guys introducing Stu Smallwood He is an expert in Korean issues and works as a Korean English translator In Montreal Canada.
He lived in South Korea for eight years and has a parentheses useless master's degree in Asian studies from Sejong University in Seoul and he's got this very important article at anti-war calm running today US maximalist stance on denuclearization Holds Korean peace process hostage.
Oh, man.
Welcome back to the show Stu.
How's it going?
Yeah, it's good to be back on Scott.
Very happy to have you here.
So Singapore summit went pretty good and you could tell because everyone in the media and the national security establishment hated it Things are going okay, but then they were but now you say not so much Mike Pompeo went over there the North Koreans said that he had delivered gangster like demands and it seems like momentum is Slowing down what's going on?
And what can be done?
Well like you said, I mean Singapore was a Really interesting event.
The summit was a really interesting event mainly because well you had two different things happening one.
You had a surprising Conciliatory position from Donald Trump Especially the willingness to postpone the military drills.
That was unexpected I think it was probably hoped for by the South Korean government contrary to what you might hear in the US media Reports that we were abandoning and abandoning our allies, which was completely false So it's Korea had it had it recommended the this move in the past, but I don't think it was expected But yeah, it was it was it was a great sign that The Trump administration had kind of come to understand that in order to push this thing forward the US needs to make some concessions at some point or another And so that was great.
It I think it led to a lot of hope in North Korea and in South Korea certainly among among South Koreans that I talked to and From what I've read a lot of people in South Korea.
We're really happy about this.
So When mom Mike I think a couple weeks later It was probably a bit a couple weeks later when Mike Pompeo went to to Pyongyang the capital of North Korea For what was expected to be a follow-up meeting and a lot of momentum there was an expectation that it would carry the momentum forth and Push things along, you know, and North Korea probably expected something a bit of a different stance from Mike Pompeo when he went there, but we learned from the Dispatch from North Korea afterwards that things did not go very well.
And like as you mentioned the gangster like Negotiation stance of Mike Pompeo was the one thing that was really focused on by the media in the US and elsewhere in the Western world, but if you actually read the Entire dispatch you learn basically you you don't see that much of it There is a bit of an aggressive tone here and there but the gangster like thing is probably the worst part the the gangster like quote itself was really just referring to the idea of Somebody holding a gun to your head and asking you to give up everything and then later in return Promising that after you do so they're not going to shoot you that was the that's the idea of the gangster like quote, but overall the the message from North Korea was that Mike Pompeo came here and contrary to actually Discussing the measures and steps that would be taken to get to the new denuclearization process the various Steps that were agreed upon in the Singapore summit.
He just went there with demands for how they're gonna reveal all of their their nuclear arsenal all of their uranium enrichment sites or plutonium enrichment sites and so on and so forth and How they're gonna get to denuclearization not what are we going to do to help you get there?
And that was actually confirmed by a South Korean official after Later on after this after the South Korean delegation went to Washington for the UN Security Council briefing on South Korea He later confirmed with young hap news that that's a South Korean news agency that actually that was the situation It wasn't just North Korea saying that Mike Pompeo was being gangster like he actually went there and had nothing to offer and simply Wanted to hear From North Korea what it was that they were going to do to denuclearize.
There was no discussion of peace in that situation All right So here's who sponsors this show Mike Swanson author of the war state the rise of the military industrial complex in America after World War Two it's just great.
And also he gives investment advice at Wall Street window comm subscribe there and When you do you'll want to follow his advice and buy some precious metals for your savings You go to Roberts and Roberts brokerage Inc Rrbi dot co and Tom Scott sent you read no dev no ops no IT by Hussain Barak Chani How to run your IT business like a libertarian Zen cash at Zen cash calm or Zen system dot IO and the bumper sticker calm Stickers for your band or your business or whatever you need the bumper sticker calm And if you want a new 2018 model website and you want to save some money go to expand designs calm Scott and you'll save 500 bucks Well, I mean this raises quite a few questions I mean first of all Pompeo started laying the groundwork for this when he was still the director of the CIA and Apparently, I mean it must have been Pompeo's word to Donald Trump that trust me boss.
We can really do this Let's do this before Trump ever decided to go to Singapore before he ever agreed to have a face-to-face meeting with Kim Jong-un and so it Seems strange that it would be Pompeo who would go in there and seemingly try to sabotage the thing What do you think's going on with that?
It is it's really interesting It did seem like mom Mike Pompeo was a kind of a friend of this peace process for lack of a better term because He he was the guy who was really leading it when he was the CIA director before Before he became the Secretary of State, right?he was the guy who went there for the secret preliminary meetings with with the North Korean officials before this was actually revealed to be a thing that was happening and afterwards, he really seemed like he was on board with this but So that's why it was a big surprise this is I think everybody was surprised by this and I mean Mike Pompeo himself after the trip to Pyongyang said that everything went well, and it was revealed that it didn't buy North Korea, but we've seen since then that maybe Mike Pompeo is not quite the friend of Peace that I mean nobody thinks that Mike Pompeo is like a good guy or anything, right?
But But he seemed like he was on board with this and so but we've seen it since then that maybe that's not the case especially At the UN Security Council meeting that I mentioned earlier at that time He came if he came out guns a-blazing just talking about all the different Sanctions that the you North Korea has violated UN sanctions that North Korea has violated over the entire year He mentioned 89 different instances in the first five months of 2018 where North Korea violated fuel sanctions fuel import sanctions and I Mean there's been a lot of rhetoric ever since about different sanctions violations You mentioned in the article that he made such a big deal about that and said well How can we move forward as long as they're violating the sanctions?
But if they've been violating them all year long, they were violating them before Singapore and it didn't stop right then So what's the problem man?
Well, yeah, that's that's what we're starting importing fuel.
Like that's what you're mad about.
I don't get it well, the reason why I think I think the reason for the impasse what I'm kind of working towards is that Mike Pompeo seems to have an ideology here, which is the it's the it's the ideology that is really dominant in Washington, which is sanctions work and the idea that sanctions Are the reason why North Korea came to the table in the first place now for the longest time there have been US and UN sanctions But China wasn't really willing to go along with them for a long time until around 2014 after some Nuclear tests by North Korea China set kind of had it had enough themselves I don't think they don't want North Korea to have nuclear weapons either It makes it harder to control North Korea on their end.
So they decided to go along and to really clamp down on the the kind of under the table transfers or you know But the behind the scenes transfers that were going on between the Northeast along the Chinese North Korean border Really clamped down on that kind of thing so in Washington, the belief is that this is why North Korea has become willing to negotiate and I I don't I did disagree with that completely as we discussed earlier and And some of my earlier articles have shown that it's really So the fact that South Korea now has a more of an independent actor and a negotiate a part Negotiating negotiating partner that North Korea can deal with and trust that's been the real catalyst of this process but in in Washington, you have this belief that it's max they call it maximum pressure and This is why they believe that North Korea has come to the table They they finally believe that after two decades of this same this exact same strategy somehow finally North Korea is on the verge of collapsing and so they need to be They need to come to the table to open up their economy and receive all the benefits and so on So Trump took the attitude that okay, I'll give you a security guarantee and I'll call off the provocative military exercises for now and Started letting up some of that pressure as long as we're dealing in good faith here, man I can do some things for you, which sounds perfectly legit.
And do you think it was just the media pressure and all the accusations of You know Trump giving away the whole store to the North Koreans here, which was obviously nonsense And and all the criticism for Trump being conciliatory at all behind this or It's really hard.
It's really hard to gauge because I mean it is a skit.
It's an absolute you're right It's an absolutely schizophrenic policy and it's it's very confusing what's happening right now because And you have reports that they they don't want to and we'll get to this We'll get to the importance of declaring a Korean at the end of the Korean War at some point in this discussion They don't want to do that because They want to maintain maximum or they want to maintain a military option which is at this point is is bizarre like the belief that the military option is something that is going to convince North Korea to Denuclearize.
In fact, it's the exact opposite.
They want their nuclear weapons to make sure that the nuclear option isn't a thing so it's it's it's hard.
It's hard to understand.
I know that Gareth Porter has written a lot about the The accusations the media the media actually accusations and The likelihood that there's somebody in the Trump administration that is leaking information about some pretty weak intelligence Reports that North Korea is hiding secret uranium facilities and all of this perhaps putting the pressure on the Trump administration to back off It's conciliatory conciliatory approach But it's hard to know because I mean the Trump administration doesn't really seem to care what people think and a lot of other issues although I guess we have seen them back off a little bit on the on the Detente with Russia after the criticism from Helsinki, but that's that's obviously another matter But it's it's really hard to gauge but what we definitely see We can only speculate on why this is happening But we definitely see that it is the US taking now for the most part Very much a hardline approach and and they're trying to clamp down on on the sanctions again And it's I mean just just today.
There's news that The u.s.
Has clamped down on some transfers of sports equipment to just North Korean athletes Who are trying to compete in some international events?
So it's bizarre you have my vice president president Mike Pence coming out yesterday decrying North Korea for their human rights records So there's there's a massive massive push from certain elements in the Trump administration now We should talk about the fact that North Korea just transferred 55 Sets of remains from Korea American soldiers from the Korean War That was yet another trust-building measure that North Korea has followed up on so there were a few verbal agreements in the Singapore summit I'm not certain what the White House said about that But they could make a lot of hay out of that that hey, look at what a great success You know, this has been so far.
Here's something that Obama and Bush and Clinton never did Yeah, well Trump is Trump has come out and he said Thank you very so much.
And you know, we have a great relationship and he keeps saying that so You get the Trump you get the Trump statements about how great things are going and how great of a right late relationship they have but then literally everybody else in the administration is Saying the opposite so Vice president's office like in the Cheney years or what?
What I'm here what it what it really looks like is that the only person who really I mean we're speculating We don't know but it looks like Trump is the only person who wants This to happen.
Yeah, and you know, I don't let me ask you about this There was this Bloomberg story that said that when Pompeo got there the North Koreans just started jerking him around And they didn't take him they wouldn't tell him where they're going and then they took him to the wrong hotel And then they dragged out dinner for four hours and they did all these things basically to prove that you know, you can't push us around or whatever, but in a way that was really pushing him around and humiliating him and So this is all their fault Wow, that sounds very I mean that's petty and I don't know I don't know if that is that a legitimate report I mean it might be I mean it was it was you know written by somebody who was in the press pool with Pompeo Is that right?
Yeah Details in the tone, but it's not nice that they did that but if that's enough to make Mike Pompeo Change what he's going there for in the first place and and I can tell you what a South Korean official said that he was interested only solely interested in discussing while he was there which was a Folding folding a full declaration of North Korea's nuclear arsenal a timeline for dismantling the nuclear program and an unfulfilled promise made by Kim at the summit Which is hard to know what that was it probably has something to do with the repatriation of American soldiers Which now has been fulfilled or it might have something to do with the dismantling of the ballistic missile test site Which has been fulfilled or is on in the process of happening and this work began after Pompeo left So it's proof that North Korea is still on board with this situation so, I mean those reports you get all of these reports about how petty North Korea is and their Negotiations negotiation stance and what their tactics and all of these things, but if you get down to the brass tacks What like actual legitimate issues are being discussed?
It does it does seem like there's one side That's being a little more hardline than the other side.
Yeah on this.
So I don't know I mean that that's just that stuff just seems really petty and it seems typical of US media and how they like to portray it portray North Korea is a naughty child the intransigent child that needs That well, if you give it a if you give it Lacks discipline if there's an opening for North Korea They'll they'll take it and they'll run with it and you know, they can't be trusted that that seems more on that vein Yeah, I'm more interested in what what's actually what's actually being discussed and well, and there was a new story You mentioned the repatriation.
There's a new story about them Destroying a missile testing site.
Yeah two days ago, too.
That's another huge step forward on their part at least symbolically Yeah, as I as I just alluded to they they have either completely dismantled or are in the process of dismantling a ballistic missile Test site.
So there were a few things that were verbally apparently verbally agreed upon in Singapore so on Trump's side he Agreed to Postpone the military aggressive military invasion drills that happen literally just off North Korea's border and on the other side, I mean imagine imagine somebody doing that to the US whatever but on the other side North Korea agreed to No more nuclear tests.
They haven't been do they haven't done that for like eight or nine months.
Anyway, no ballistic tests Dismantling Of a ballistic missile test site is also what they agreed to and of course you had the four main priorities that were declared number one Establishing better relationship a better relationship between the two countries number two establishing a peace regime of some kind Peace regime is a bit of a vague term, but it certainly means ending the Korean War number three the eventual denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula Not just North Korea, but the Korean Peninsula and number four was the repatriation of the thousands of American sets of American remains that exist in Korea, so It seems to me that if you check off all those boxes North Korea's They they're really doing well to work towards trying to build trust with with the u.s I guess negotiation tactics aside the overall strategy of North Korea does seem to be trying to Be conciliatory in their own right given a negotiation should involve give-and-take.
So The overall issue though now is what is the u.s.
Willing to give North Korea?
For it to denuclearized.
They're not going to do it for free.
They have been on the American hit list for decades They know it they see what the u.s.
Has done around the world The u.s.
Has a history of running rampant all around the globe changing regimes going back on agreements They cannot be trusted.
So they're not going to denuclearize before the u.s Gives them some form of security guarantee a guarantee at least at least ending the Korean War.
But what we see now and Officials have confirmed this that they are not willing to They're not willing to consider the possibility of establishing a peace treaty in place of the armistice agreement Until North Korea has completely denuclearized So we're at this is the source of the the major impasse and we are today on the 60 60 65th anniversary of the Armistice agreement.
So it's an historic day to be talking about this, but I saw on Twitter this morning to its anniversary of the biggest massacre during the Korean War to That's right.
So it makes sense that we're talking about it on this day.
That's right.
No good read No gunry is well re means village, so it's it's a It's a situation in the Korean War in 1950 where there were a lot of refugees from who are fleeing North Korea coming south Or they may some of them may have been from South Korea But they're they were coming south and they were actually forced to stop on a railway bridge by the u.s They were inspected by American soldiers they were told to stay there for the night the American soldiers who inspect inspected them fled and then In the morning the bombing the strafing began and it ended up turning into a three-day massacre It was a earthquake or a flood a few years ago that revealed the mass grave right and in that whole scan It may be any there.
There were all Apparently there were 200 such incidents in the Korean War and it has been really revealed that the u.s Troops were specifically ordered by generals or whoever to fire on these people Rumors that there were North Koreans infiltrating them So it was a three-day it was a three-day massacre there were actually bodies piled up at the the Koreans were using as Like barricades or little little defensive walls to try to protect themselves from the American soldiers So it's a it's a brutal history Yeah, it's really worth bringing up too because people think of just oh, yeah Those crazy old Koreans and what-have-you, but it's always left out the context of what USA did to them back in the 1950s I've said this a million times because it's true and it's important.
I think our best Conception as Americans of the Korean War is Hawkeye and hot-lips Houlihan radar O'Reilly and you know cracking jokes and working in a hospital But it's just a sitcom.
They never showed what was going on on the other side of those North Hollywood Hills there and and so we just the American people have no idea about millions and millions and millions of Civilians being burned to death with napalm for years there and and just imagine for a moment What it would be like in America how we would consider the North Koreans if that one time they came and burned Oregon and Washington State to the ground and murdered all the inhabitants thereof and How over that we would be by now and the way that we would perceive them in that situation So, you know put your shoe on the other foot for just a second and look at it from their eyes and then especially when The only reason that they left the non-proliferation treaty is because Bush put them in the nuclear posture of you said maybe we'll do a nuclear First strike against Korea if we don't like them and that was when they were still within the NPT and not making nuclear weapons Yeah, that is it's so important to To mention that as as many times as possible.
Why does North Korea have nuclear weapons in the first place?
I mean even going back as far as the late 80s North Korea was originally under the Soviet nuclear umbrella, but they took them off of it Near the end of the Soviet Union.
It was, you know part of Gorbachev's kind of plan to sort of draw down so at that point they began to look into it and Subsequent agreements made with the u.s.the agreed framework namely in 1994 which was eventually just torn up torn to shreds by George Bush the moment that he had the chance to do so and yeah, I mean just rhetoric and threats and history of massacres and 20% of their population destroyed in the Korean War their entire all houses infrastructure anything that could be bombed destroyed Biological chemical weapons most likely used it's an absolute mess and the American exceptionalism that you're describing is is really a sickness that I think it's unique to one country on the earth and it's it's really why we're in this mess in the first place and What people who wake up to that realize how it's once you wake up to that.
It's really easy to see See it from the North Korean perspective and why they're Demanding why things have broken down since Singapore, especially because When you demand that when you demand complete verifiable Irreversible denuclearization you're asking for that's a lot.
That is a lot to ask for Especially when you're talking about a country that has a history That it does with the United States.
So This is where the impasse comes from and this is why it's so disappointing since since the Pyongyang meeting with Mike Pompeo That that the United States has taken this New stance this hardline stance that really is fitting I mean some of the the people that you have in the in the Trump administration I mean as long as John Bolton is involved in this you got to think that that it's gonna be a really challenging process I mean, you know, it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's You got to think that that it's gonna be a really challenging process.
So What what needs to happen now really is I?mean somebody has to get to the people that are directly involved in this especially Pompeo or hopefully Trump and change their mind and in my opinion, it's really Has to be the president of South Korea.
Yeah.
Hey, I'll check it out.
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You're really gonna love it It's available now on Amazon in Kindle or paperback Keslan runs well, so let's talk a little bit more about that this guy president moon his Previous role in the previous government not the previous government, but a couple of governments ago He was in charge of the sunshine policy and warming up of relations This is really his political legacy his lifelong and he really is intent on seeing this thing through one way or the other, right?well, yeah, so he was so the the original sunshine sunshine policy began with Kim Daejoong who was a political prisoner and eventually escaped escaped South Korea during the dictatorial years and came back after things opened up and After the u.s.
Back dictatorship of South Korea fell at the hands of the South Korean people who have really who really fought tooth and nail for it So yes, so Kim Daejoong was originally the man who led the original sunshine policy So and then the next prime and or the next president who followed him up was also of the same What they call the Democratic Party It's not the same as the Democratic Party in the u.s.
Obviously, but so on the second leg the second administration during the second administration moon was the secretary of the president at the time so he was intimately involved with It and it's clearly his he's declared at his administration.
It it is the administration's goal so if it doesn't if it doesn't work, then it will be a massive failure for him and You can see at the time when he when he was at the height of the Negotiations with North Korea his especially in his second bit by his second visits to North Korea after Donald Trump had unilaterally canceled the Singapore summit That was when he was at the height of his popularity at almost like 75 percent 70 some polls were saying 79 percent popularity levels and it's gone down a little bit because there have been some economic issues in South Korea that really he's Not not related to you.
But this is this is his legacy for sure All right So but if the Americans are saying people want if the Americans are saying we refuse to end the Korean War until you do this That or the other thing might moon just say forget you and sign a treaty and end the war now or he wouldn't dare Well, it is.
I mean the armistice is between The United States South Korea and North Korea right and China too, right and China too.
Yeah, so So, I don't know how this would all work it's it this is where it gets really really messy I mean, there's a lot of bridges to cross before we get there, but Moon really needs to he needs to he needs to find a way to get to Trump and Cuz Stu I'm a terrible businessman and I'm no statesman at all I promise so my attitude is that the USA ought to drop all sanctions sign a peace deal Cease all threats pull all troops out and and then just kill the North Koreans with kindness We don't even care what you say.
We're sending all of our basketball players.
We're sending all of our metal bands We just want to be friends and that's it and please get rid of your nukes, too But we don't even care if you do but that's no way to negotiate.
So You know, what about that what about if they took a completely Magnanimous sort of point of view here that like hey, look we're friends now.
You don't need nukes I already gave you a security guarantee man Let's go ahead and do this thing and and and approach the thing from all carrots or at least You know many less sticks and and much more, you know, the same attitude is the Singapore summit Am I just a sucker for for thinking that that might work that really?
No We got to be tough and we got to play hardball and we got to make sure they do this before we do that and These things I mean maybe Pompeo is going too far, but maybe he's sort of right Well, I mean let's say you took a completely Just okay North Korea do whatever you want kind of position which you know, I think would be fantastic as well but I mean what would what would actually happen?
I mean, I have a I have a kind of a I have a I have a feeling that China does not want North Korea to have nuclear weapons either and there's there's a strong possibility there their economic cooperate cooperation with North Korea, which is beginning again as I've touched on in the article there.
They've already They've already committed.
I think it's I think it was 89 million dollars or so to Connecting finishing up the bridge that's connecting the northeast of China to to North Korea across the Alu River So they're already on the way to violating sanctions again And and so that that ship has sailed completely maximum pressure is not going to happen.
So So So I but I do I do think that China does not want North Korea to have nuclear weapons It's it's for them another factor that makes things a lot easier to control in terms of the security situation of Northeast Asia so it is highly possible that China is behind the scenes In agreement with or North Korea and China have come to some kind of commitment that North Korea will do denuclearize actually in the end But there was probably a caveat to that which would be that the u.s.
Has to give them a semblance of security Just just something that would make make North Korea believe that they could actually go ahead and do this Which I think would be the end of the Korean War and and some other small guarantees and just you know conciliatory gestures along the way, but let's say Let's say the u.s.
Completely Step back.
This is what this is.
Honestly, I don't think that It's in the interest of China and Russia and and South Korea in the long term for nuclear weapons to be there So if North Korea does actually want to open up its country, which I believe I personally believe that Kim Jong-un wants to do that But but I don't have any proof because I haven't spoken to them in however I if he does want to do that I think that that would actually be a condition that most of the countries would would more or less demand in the long run So it's possible that even with the u.s.
Even if the u.s.
Says, you know We're not doing this.
We demand complete Verifiable CV ID complete verifiable irreversible denuclearization before everything.
It's possible that more North Korea may more or less work towards that anyway Because it's actually in their best interest in terms of opening themselves up to the world.
Yeah now I mean In terms of the maximum pressure thing though, which is what the devil devil's advocate position So we need to We need to force them to get rid of the nukes before we give them anything because you can't trust North Korea They're they're always they're like weasels.
They they'd get around everything that they can do Basically this country Fundamentally can't be trusted.
This is this is the the history from the Washington consensus This is the history of negotiating with North Korea anytime you give them something They try to take more and then they try to trick you and so on and so forth So let's say that that is true It doesn't actually matter anymore because as I alluded to Maximum sanctions are that's not working.
It hasn't been according to Pompeo.
It hasn't been working the whole year.
There have been fuel violations all year so there's only so much that the u.s.
Can actually control and in terms of in terms of maximum military pressure, I mean This is another reason why I think that North Korea could in fact In the long run decide to just get rid of the nukes anyway Although I am kind of undermining my argument a little bit here But if if China and Russia are willing to guarantee the regime's security That's a pretty strong guarantee and and if it comes with economics incentives from China, right?
It doesn't really matter what the military what the US military what the US military pressure is because that's just a bridge too far for everybody to cross Although I guess if you have madmen like John Bolton in the White House, you never know But I think that the maximum pressure thing is really and this is why another reason why it is surprising that the u.s Has gone back reverted back to this Since since they've shown the understanding that the concessions do work is That it's it's not it's not a viable option anymore China clearly wants integration with North Korea and they've already taken that step and once that once that happens again There's no controlling There's no controlling the North Korean economy Like like they could before there was a brief window of time where North where China agreed to these sanctions exemptions And that's that's finished now.
So right even your devil's our advocate argument is it's a feeble it's a feeble one because It's just not it hasn't been working and it's not working and it won't work.
Yeah All right, you guys that's too small would find him at anti-war calm us maximalist stance on denuclearization Holds Korean peace process hostage.
Thanks very much to appreciate it.
All right.
Good to talk to you All right, y'all.
That's it for the show.
Check me out at Libertarian Institute org Scott Horton org anti-war comm twitter.com Scott Horton show appreciate it and buy my book fool's errand timed and the war in Afghanistan
