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Sorry, I'm late.
I had to stop by the wax museum again and get the finger that FDR.
We know Al Qaeda, Zawahiri is supporting the opposition in Syria.
Are we supporting Al Qaeda in Syria?
It's a proud day for America.
And by God, we've kicked Vietnam syndrome once and for all.
Thank you very, very much.
I say it, I say it again.
You've been had.
You've been took.
You've been hoodwinked.
These witnesses are trying to simply deny things that just about everybody else accepts as fact.
He came, he saw us, he died.
We ain't killing they army, but we killing them.
We'd be on CNN like say our name and say it, say it three times.
The meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world.
Then there's going to be an invasion.
Okay, guys, introducing Max Blumenthal and Dan Cohen.
First of all, Dan is a journalist with RT America, and he is the cinematographer and editor of this new documentary they've made, Killing Gaza.
Max is producer on the documentary, as well as the narrator of it.
He of course runs the Grayzone Project at grayzoneproject.com.
And he's the author of the books, Goliath and the 51 Day War.
And that's what this documentary, Killing Gaza, is about the 51 Day War, the attack on Gaza in 2014.
Welcome both of you to the show.
Good to be on.
Good to talk to you.
And what a great job you guys did putting this documentary together, really just showing what it's like from the Palestinian point of view, what happened there.
But let's start out with a little bit of politics, if we could.
And you guys can answer this however you want with whatever details you want or however, but it's, I guess, probably the obvious question and you're both used to it.
What are a couple of nice Jewish boys like you doing taking the side of the Palestinians in a war with Israel?
Oh, who should answer that?
Oh, you guys figure it out.
Go ahead.
Yeah, go for it, Max.
Well, I've been on your show before, Scott, and I'm sure your listeners know me pretty well.
And they know my politics.
They know I'm an anti-Zionist.
And, you know, it was part of a process that I think a lot of progressive-minded Jews in my generation have gone through after watching the second intifada and watched the West Bank and the Gaza Strip start to, you know, come under assault from tanks and combat aircraft.
Just a new level of violence that wasn't seen in the first intifada and just the horrific destruction of the Jenin refugee camp then the Iraq war after 9-11, the 2006 war in Lebanon, and then the first real massive assault on the Gaza Strip after the Gaza Strip was put under siege, Operation Cast Lead in 2008-2009.
It was a really searing experience.
You know, if you're already kind of questioning why this ideology of Jewish nationalism has been imposed on you through mills of indoctrination, indoctrination mills, you really are watching that and just with extreme horror.
And there's just no way you can be a part of it.
In early 2009, I embarked on a kind of long-term project that I guess is still ongoing of exposing Israel to Americans.
And Goliath is really about the real Israel Americans don't know, which is going so far off the rails to the right that, you know, to the extreme nationalist and religious nationalists far right that, you know, it's unrecognizable to any progressive-minded Jew.
And most American Jews are, you know, progressive or liberal.
I think that debate that I kind of, that I threw myself into, I think we won that debate.
Although, you know, the actual conflict on the ground is pretty lopsided in Israel's favor.
And I think Dan has a similar story.
Go ahead, Dan.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, for myself, you know, I was raised in a typical Reform Jewish American household.
So mostly secular, you know, not very religious.
And a lot of that Jewish identity was kind of, you know, being in a secular world, growing up around as, you know, a minority in that way, and mostly around people from other backgrounds.
A lot of that identity is replaced with Israel.
So, you know, being a good Jew means supporting Israel.
You kind of are taught to take that for granted growing up.
And at the same time, of course, you are taught a lot about the Holocaust and, you know, what happened to generations before us.
And so once I got, you know, into my late teens and early 20s and started to be critical of U.S. foreign policy and understanding the world around me a little bit better, I figured I had to take that same approach to Israel.
And so in college, I took a history class, and it was really eye-opening for me.
And I started to realize that I had been lied to, basically, about what Israel is.
You know, I understood that there was a massive ethnic cleansing that took place in order to create the state of Israel, in order to, you know, create an artificial demographic majority.
And so all of, I think, the moral force that I had put into, you know, being a descendant of victims of the Holocaust, you know, that kind of turned into a rage about being lied to about what Israel is.
And, you know, I began to identify with the people who are oppressed in this situation, who are, you know, the Palestinians.
And so I just continued to read more and more.
And after, you know, the economy crashed in 2008, and I couldn't really find good work for a long time.
My, you know, my degree was pretty useless.
I just decided to dive first into journalism.
And I ended up going to Palestine.
I lived in IDA camp, IDA refugee camp in Bethlehem for a few months.
You know, this is the most heavily tear-gassed place in the world.
So I just got kind of a, you know, the daily barrage of, you know, experience in terms of what, you know, Palestinians live through on a daily basis.
And then a few months later, Max and I got an opportunity to go into the Gaza Strip, and that's where this documentary picked up.
All right.
Now, so it seems like, at least in my experience, and I project this onto the rest of the population, but I'm pretty sure I'm right about this, that the real difference being made, it sounds almost like this is what you guys are saying too, is that once somebody actually shows you a map and explains, you know, that Palestine isn't the country next door that's constantly invading and attacking Israel.
They don't have independence at all.
They were conquered back in 1967.
They're under occupation in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, and they live under the totalitarian rule of a foreign military power.
Then, oh, well, no wonder there's all the controversy, right?
But this is the thing that they never say on TV.
In fact, they said it on TV once on MSNBC when Obama was abstaining on his way out as lame duck president on that UN vote.
On MSNBC, one time they explained, here's the West Bank, and here's how it's sort of like apartheid and whatever.
But that was the one time ever, which just goes to show, I think, that- And they apologized.
Yeah.
Oh, did they take that back?
Sorry.
Yeah.
So was that basically the deal with you guys too?
Once they show you the West Bank and the Gaza Strip and a map, and you realize that it's not Israel that's besieged.
It's the Palestinians who are besieged by Israel.
That's what makes the difference, right?
Pretty simple.
It's a little bit more complex for a politically-minded liberal Jewish home.
Growing up in the 1990s in the Clinton era, which was the Rabin-Perez era, Ehud Barak era in Israel, you learn that there is an occupation, that the occupation is an abomination.
It happened maybe partly by accident because Israel just had this war in 67 to defend itself from destruction by all these Arab armies, and it doesn't want to be occupying.
And so it started this peace process, and that there eventually will be peace if the Arabs and Yasser Arafat would just come to the table and stop being rejectionists.
But unfortunately, they want it all, and the Arab states are exploiting the Palestinians for domestic consumption, yada, yada, yada.
And then you watch the peace process and you learn about, for me, it was really about learning what the peace process was and how it was basically a scam that would buy Israel time so it could continue to put new facts on the ground and move hundreds of thousands of settlers into the West Bank and fence off Gaza.
Then the separation wall takes place and they tell you, oh, well, this is good.
It's laying the basis for a two-state solution.
And then you see what the wall really is, and you see that it isn't actually on 67 borders.
It's just there to keep East Jerusalem in Israeli hands permanently and surround the mega settlements.
And you really start getting into it, and you see the way it's discussed in U.S. media.
That's the ultimate, really, that's the end of Zionism in the mind of a young American Jew who grew up in a liberal home.
And you just see the Democratic Party do nothing to push back against the Israeli propaganda machine and Israeli disproportionate violence.
And there just is no way, once you start questioning that part of the equation, it just all falls apart in your hands.
Well, yeah, that was a real important part of it, right, especially the year 2000, where, you know, they tried to give Arafat a Palestinian state and he refused to accept it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They offered him 97 percent.
But then you learn that it wasn't actually 97 percent, because he was only offered Area A, which are the major cities in the West Bank.
There was no control over Area C, which is 40 percent of the West Bank.
So you take like 40 percent out of 97 percent and you have 57 percent.
And then you learn that it's only 57 percent of the 22 percent that the West Bank and the Gaza Strip represent.
So 57 percent of 22 percent.
And then they say, you know, we couldn't agree on East Jerusalem.
Jerusalem was a sticking point because they offer the Palestinians every time they offer them Abu Dis, which is basically this tiny little town on the outskirts of East Jerusalem that is home to a giant garbage dump.
So they're like, your capital will be a garbage dump outside Jerusalem and, you know, accept this, or we will say you rejected Jerusalem.
And that's what they proceeded to do.
And, you know, the liberal commentariat of Thomas Friedman and, you know, Roger Cohen and these characters, they they they swallowed this line whole and then projected it outwards.
And it's repeated like gospel at these kind of talks that are hosted at the 92nd Street Y in New York, where you have like, you know, Peter Beinart debating some right wing psychopath like Brett Stevens or Shmueli Botea.
And all the all the debates within the Jewish communal debates are Zionist versus Zionist.
It's like what it's it's, you know, should we have a jumbo size cage for Palestinians or a little cage?
That's the debate.
And so once you decide that you're not a Zionist, that you're an anti Zionist, your goal becomes kind of, you know, state, you know, standing outside the building and throwing rocks at the entire mainstream media and at the entire Jewish communal discussion.
Now, I think, you know, I'm not I'm not in the tent.
You know, I'm not inside the inside the tent at all because of other positions I've taken.
But, you know, the anti Zionist position is entering the Jewish tent now.
Yeah, well, I mean, and this is real progress, even having Peter Beinart allowed to have his critical take when, you know, in that movie Defamation, they show that I forgot exactly which group, but an Israel lobby group meeting in D.C.
And one guy says, hey, listen, I just think we should acknowledge that there are Palestinians that we have to talk about.
Like, what are we going to do or something?
And they just boo him right out of the room for even bringing it up at all.
So, yeah, it's pretty bad.
All right.
So now to.
Well, geez, I guess I ought to figure out how to include Dan here.
I was going to ask you, Max, about 2010.
Well, I'll stick with Max for a minute.
We got time.
Max, I interviewed you back in 2010 when you were riding Goliath, when you were over there in Israel.
It was during the attack on the Mavi Mamara was one of them.
Right.
When and this is the funny thing, right, when the five year old that you interviewed really distilled the narrative better than anyone else.
And because he didn't know any better, he didn't have the dissonance to to, you know, try to figure out a better way to couch it.
So he just repeats basically verbatim without any context what was going on.
And that was that the evil terrorists were invading Israel with sticks and they were going to kill us all until the IDF heroes swooped out of the sky and saved us from them.
And that was actually the narrative.
And the five year old was just saying it.
And it just happened to be about a five year old level narrative of the Mavi Mamara invasion of Israel that day or whatever.
And but that was what you were saying is what you were saying a few minutes ago, that this whole political, the entire political spectrum in Israel is to the right of the American Republicans by far.
And as you put it, then too far gone and never coming back.
Well, it's closer to Christian Zionists and the kind of millinery and apocalypticists of, you know, Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas, than it is to, you know, American Jews at a synagogue in northwest D.C.
And it's never coming back.
Dan has actually done some really important work on the temple movement, which is really something that's so terrifying when you learn about it.
You realize Israel's going beyond anywhere that, you know, even the depiction of it that came across in the pages of Goliath, where right wing religious nationalist settlers are taking control of the key institutions of Israeli society.
And you have a movement that actually aims to replace Jewish prayer at the Western Wall with mass continuous animal sacrifice and which believes in hastening the apocalypse.
This is, you know, a movement that's actually gaining strength in mainstream Israeli discourse and, you know, is also entering popular culture.
Roseanne Barr was extremely interested in this movement.
I mean, Dan can talk a little bit more about it.
Yeah, please do, Dan, because in fact, this actually came up in my conversation with Phil Weiss last Friday.
And I think, you know, his take was, well, they're there, but they're not really, you know, that's not coming too soon.
They're not in a position to really pull it off, but, you know, destroy the Al-Aqsa Mosque and rebuild the Third Temple, whatever, this, that.
But so tell us, what is the truth?
How much power do these kooks have?
Well, it's not that, you know, I'm not saying that there's gonna, you know, the Israeli army is going to go up to the, you know, Al-Aqsa compound and bulldoze the Dome of the Rock tomorrow.
But I mean, there have been attempts in past years to, you know, by vigilantes to do it, and they've come exceedingly close.
And, you know, these kinds of vigilantes are very, you know, well-connected into the mainstream Israeli society and the Israeli security services.
And there's actually been a major kind of cultural takeover from the settler movement into mainstream Israeli society, into kind of all levels of government and institution.
So, you know, what was considered extreme in the 70s and 80s is now completely dominant.
And so what you have is this movement that, well, you know, first, I think it's important to point out that behind the facade of a two-state solution, you know, while everyone in Western media is talking about a two-state solution, this is what's really happening, is you have settler movement since the 70s has taken control of the country.
The Likud, the ruling party, has been taken over from within by fanatical settlers, what's called the Jewish leadership movement.
And these are people who seek nothing less than the destruction of Al-Aqsa and to replace it with, you know, a so-called third Jewish temple.
And the question is, why are they so intent on doing this?
You know, what is a sensibly secular, you know, Jewish state?
Why is this movement popularizing?
And it's because the destruction of Al-Aqsa would trigger, at least, you know, in their ideology, would trigger a great enough war that they could complete the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, that they could finish the job that was started in 1948, and they got more done in 1967.
But, you know, they've basically started and are halfway through it and still stuck with these Palestinians.
And so destroying Al-Aqsa would give them the opportunity to do it.
And so there's a major lobby that is on, kind of, that was the fringe of the settler movement, but in reaction to the peace process, actually, the settlers are totally opposed to the idea of compromise, of withdrawal of Jewish sovereignty from any piece of, you know, Eretz Yisrael, the biblical land of Israel, so Palestine and beyond.
And so when the Israeli government did that, you know, from Sinai after the 1967 war, from Gaza too, you know, in the early 2000s, that was a major theological blow to the settler movement.
And so they became radicalized by the peace process.
And so that's really, you know, what we see is the peace process bearing fruit into the, you know, with the most fanatical elements of Israeli society that were once just a handful on the margins, on the fringes, are now firmly established in the halls of power, in the Knesset.
And so they seek a genocidal war.
And we really see that playing out with this kind of violence in Gaza, you know.
I mean, I think, you know, we have to trace the rise of fanaticism in Israel with, along with the extreme violence that the military kind of meets out on people who are, you know, besieged.
It's, you know, even if they're not able to carry out a full-on genocide right now, the intent is clearly there.
The joy that these, you know, the videos of the soldiers gunning down Palestinian protesters, that's very, it's very clear what their intent is.
And so that's what's been going on in Israeli society.
And whether it ends up with the actual destruction of the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa Mosque is one thing that may or may not happen.
But I think that actually kind of misses the point.
The bigger point is that there is regular violence.
Like last summer, there were major confrontations.
There was, at the Al-Aqsa compound that, you know, was the, that it dominated the news cycle.
I mean, it was a huge thing that was all over the country, and it was all based in Jerusalem.
And it was, and it was a result of Israeli encroachment on Al-Aqsa.
And that is driven by this fanatical settler movement.
And so while we were, so no one really knows much about these guys.
The only ones who follow them are, you know, a handful of like Israeli academics and the security services, and that's about it.
But they are very central.
They play a central role in what's happening.
And, you know, they're freakish aesthetically in terms of, you know, they want to build this temple and have animals sacrifice as a way to worship God, like they did in like pagan times and smear blood all over the walls and all this horrible stuff.
But, you know, more importantly, they're extremely dangerous for those living in the region.
So I'm sure neither of you were surprised to see John Hagee of the Cornerstone Church actually giving a speech at the dedication of the American embassy in East Jerusalem there.
Max, I know you've met with John Hagee before.
We had some pretty good soundbites from that.
Who's John Hagee and what difference does it make that he's in on this?
Well, yeah, I think I was one of the first journalists in a kind of national forum at the Washington Israel Summit to confront Pastor John Hagee about the anti-Semitism and the kind of anti-Jewish themes in his pulp, his kind of pulp prophecy books, like Jerusalem Countdown, where he talks about Hitler as a figure who is kind of foretold in the book of Revelations and some, you know, a figure who is hastening the apocalypse and was going to bring about the rapture that everyone seeks, that the Holocaust was part of, you know, the road to the rapture because it gathered the Jews into the promised land, which is something that needs to happen.
It's an important dispensation.
I questioned him at a press conference at his Washington Israel Summit of Christians United for Israel, which is the main Christian Zionist lobby.
It was actually set up in part by AIPAC, the main arm of the pro-Israel, mainstream Israel lobby.
And Hagee's wife threw me out.
Soon after, actually it was two years later, John McCain accepted Hagee's endorsement.
You know, McCain is a figure that the Christian right had hated, but Hagee liked him because, you know, McCain wanted to bomb Iran.
Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran.
And that was another dispensation.
I mean, basically what Hagee does is he takes good old fashioned American militarism and repackages it as biblical prophecy.
And that attracts a lot of people who already believe those things.
And so he supported McCain.
McCain found out later, the mainstream press, you know, in pushing, you know, Obama against McCain, figured out that there were these anti-Semitic passages and McCain was forced to rescind the endorsement.
But Hagee hung around.
He stayed really close with Mike Huckabee, who was always a player in the Republican Party.
And Sarah Huckabee Sanders comes into the Trump administration.
And so John Hagee winds up escorting Trump to Jerusalem as they, you know, coronated the American embassy in Jerusalem.
Pastor Hagee gave the opening benediction.
I'm sorry, he gave the closing benediction.
The opening benediction was by another figure, Robert Jeffers, who's from Texas.
He's another, you know, Christian Zionist who is also obsessively anti-gay.
He kind of made his name with this bizarre campaign he ran at his first church in Oklahoma, where he took all of the books out of the library with gay themes and then paid the library for them so that they would never be returned.
And he has said that Jews cannot be saved.
Jews are going to hell.
Muslims are going to hell.
Mormons are going to hell.
Hagee has said that the Antichrist will be half Jewish and homosexual with fierce features.
He said that in a speech to his church.
And so these are the freaks that Donald Trump brought along to bless the embassy.
While there, Jared Kushner, the Orthodox Jewish presidential son-in-law, and his wife Ivanka were given a blessing by Yitzhak Yosef, who is a Sephardic chief rabbi of Israel.
And this is a figure who has compared black people to monkeys.
So, you know, they basically, Donald Trump and the Christian right and the Jewish right of Israel were bonding over the moving of the embassy, all for various reasons relating to Israeli settler colonialism, prophecy in Israel, the temple movement that Dan described was definitely celebrating.
And domestic politics for Trump, obviously, Sheldon Adelson offered to pay for the embassy.
He flew the Guatemalan delegation out, the right wing Guatemalan delegation.
Guatemala was like the only country that supported the embassy move, along with a few other U.S. vassal states in Latin America.
And Adelson basically paid for this whole thing to happen.
So here we are at another stage, I think, in the crisis of Israel-Palestine.
And on the, I think, you know, if you listen to this discussion, you can kind of conclude that the debate is opening up in the U.S., not only in the Jewish community, but in general.
And the situation on the ground has never been worse.
And so there's this symbiosis between the catastrophe on the ground and the open, and the kind of liberalization or opening up of discourse in the West.
Well, and, you know, I've been asked about this quite a bit in TV, as we talked about, they just won't ever make this clear.
And I've been asked, what business is it of yours or of America's where a country puts its capital?
And so I had to explain this isn't like America on a couple of interviews.
This isn't like America deciding whether to have our capital in Philadelphia or in Washington, D.C.
This is like the Canadians deciding that they're putting their capital in Philadelphia, and then the EU and the Chinese and the Russians recognize it, or something like that, and say that this territory belongs to them now.
This is somebody else's city that they're claiming is their capital, and that America, the superpower, is recognizing.
Or it is like the United States, and it's like putting Denver in the middle of the home of the Arapaho Sioux.
Okay, yeah.
Fair enough.
You know, Jerusalem was supposed to be an international city, and, you know, even JFK laid out plans for it to be an international city.
And the old city was supposed to be international even after 67.
So, you know, Jerusalem is the heart of the issue, and it's not just for religious reasons, and people need to recognize that 300,000 Palestinians are living there as non-citizens who are totally stateless, and they have to sign on to a policy in order to live there.
It's called the center of life policy.
They have to consistently prove that they live in their house, and if they leave for too long or they marry someone in the West Bank, which is like just a few kilometers away, it's like going to a different neighborhood, they can lose their house, and it can be immediately seized by settlers, and this happens all the time.
Yeah, I mean, you know, you mentioned Peter Beinart there, and I'm a little cynical about the guy too, but he did write this thing in The Forward recently about the lies that American Jews tell themselves and each other about what's going on in Gaza, where he has this paragraph where he outlies.
One of the things, I guess this is a part I remember because I quoted it on Twitter, was about how if a child in the Gaza Strip, if their mother lives with them in the Gaza Strip, and their father lives in the West Bank, and their mother dies, and the Israelis can claim that there's someone else who could take care of them in the Gaza Strip, then they have to stay in Gaza.
They're not allowed to go and live with their father on the West Bank.
This is the level of totalitarian control over these people's lives.
It's exercised by the Israeli military.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it happens to a lot of college students in the West Bank who are studying in Bethlehem or at Birzeit in Ramallah, and they get deported to the Gaza Strip all of a sudden because they can't prove their residency.
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Okay.
Now, you know what?
Let's talk about y'all's movie and about Gaza, because we've been talking about all this politics, which is all very interesting.
But y'all's movie...
I guess the war broke out, so y'all headed right over there?
Is that what happened?
Well, Max and I were on the ground.
We were in Tel Aviv covering anti-war demos, Israeli anti-war demos that were being attacked by highly organized and connected basically fascist mobs under the protection of the police.
And so then we got credentials from the Israeli government to enter Gaza.
You need permission.
It's very tightly controlled.
Who's allowed to go into Gaza as journalists for obvious reasons, because mainstream media outlets are going to report much more favorably to the Israelis.
But we managed to get in, we got our credentials, and we headed for Gaza.
We got in and we went directly to the Shujaia neighborhood, which was one of the most hard-hit neighborhoods, areas in Gaza, where basically it's close to the border.
It's on the east side of Gaza.
It's a very densely populated area.
And I'm sorry, what was the time frame here in relation to the actual so-called war itself?
This would be August 14th or so, 14th, which is the beginning of a five-day ceasefire.
So when we entered Shujaia, this area that had just been blanketed with Israeli artillery and missiles, people were just coming back from the shelters to their homes because it was the first time in weeks that there'd been a ceasefire.
And so we were able to actually do what a lot of journalists hadn't been able to do, which is interview people.
And then the other issue is that many of the journalists had already left because the main kind of most dramatic stage of the war had ended in their minds.
And so in other words, this ceasefire was a lull in the fighting.
You guys got in, and then the war continued after that, or the attack continued after that.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Okay.
I'm sorry.
So go ahead, Dan, where you were.
Yeah.
So we got in in this five-day ceasefire.
We didn't have any plan to make a documentary.
We were just planning to do written journalism.
And I had a camera with me for photos.
And we went to Shujaieh, and we were just seeing these unbelievable hellscapes of rubble, destroyed homes, just street after street after street, where it's just like if a home isn't completely collapsed, then it's half collapsed and all the walls are blown out.
And then there's some families sitting in there, just kind of like digging through the rubble, wondering if their loved ones are in there, trying to find any possessions.
And they're all just really in shock.
And so we just started going to these houses and talking to different people and collecting their testimonies.
And it became really clear to us that the testimony that we were gathering should form the basis of a documentary.
And so we stayed until the final ceasefire and went to these different areas, went to Hosea, which is another kind of farming village further south.
There were just, frankly, massacres there.
We documented people being used as human shields, multiple cases of that, one of which we put in the documentary.
By Israeli soldiers, not by Palestinians.
Right, right.
You constantly hear this narrative.
You hear this narrative again and again.
And you heard it on the day that Israelis shot 62 protesters, that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields.
We found that it was actually the other way around.
And that when Israelis had entered neighborhoods and towns, they would take young men and use them as human shields so that they can stand them in front of windows.
And then we interviewed one guy, they would just shoot over his shoulders and snipe his neighbors to death.
And we pretty much were able to document the entire scenario of the horror that this young man endured.
And this happened multiple times.
It was not an isolated incident.
You know, there's a clear policy that of Israelis using Palestinians as human shields.
And actually, I think even, you know, I can't remember which year, but there was a proposal in the Knesset that didn't pass, but to actually formalize, you know, to legalize using Palestinians as human shields.
I remember there were at least a few different pictures of that from the almost certain the 2014 war, where the Israelis are hiding behind Palestinian civilians as they're firing, holding them hostage, basically.
Yeah, I mean, there's, there's, it's well documented.
It's not really any secret.
It's just that, you know, like Western media plays dumb, and, you know, is kind of obtuse about it.
Um, so but I mean, it's well documented.
And, and, you know, we, we documented it ourselves in multiple occasions and horrifying detail of, you know, I mean, a soldier standing behind a young person resting their rifle on the person, this Palestinian shoulder and just shooting their neighbors dead.
Yeah.
Well, I'll tell you, I mean, I watched the thing last night.
And when the guy tells the story of Yeah, this is what they did to me.
And sure looks like a honest take to me.
I mean, doesn't seem to be any question of whether, you know, somebody's putting them up to it or whatever some apologist might try to say if you watch it.
It's pretty clear.
But now so Max, the other side of the story here, of course, is Hamas, Hamas terrorists.
So what's Israel supposed to do?
They got Hamas terrorists, they got to fight them.
Well, I mean, so what's the deal?
Well, there was, you know, there was indeed a war.
I mean, it wasn't simply some sort of one sided conflict.
And basically, the war didn't begin in the Gaza Strip.
You know, we don't go into the whole chronicle of the war in this documentary.
This documentary is very atmospheric, and it brings you into the atmosphere of siege.
And it's not just about the war.
What we were able to do is show what life was like after this after the war, as the siege tightened and reconstruction failed to take place, conditions worsened.
We just told the story of everyday life in the Gaza Strip in the through the voices of people who Dan was able to meet because his credential he was credentialed for a year.
And so he was able to go in and out freely for a year and just follow different characters.
And you see these different characters.
And what draws them into some of them, what draws them into painting or music or academia, or suicide, deprivation, or what draws them into armed resistance.
And this is the way to understand not just Hamas, which, you know, people are divided on in the Gaza Strip, and which has probably less support than it's had since in than it had in 2006, when it won legislative elections, but the Al Qassam brigades, which is universally respected in the Gaza Strip, and that is the armed wing of Hamas that dealt Israel a bloody nose at the first stage of the 2014 war.
And one of the people we met when we entered was Wasim Shamali, who was the brother of Salim Shamali.
You probably remember him as the young man who was executed on camera, on video, when he was looking for his cousin.
He was walking through the rubble of Shajia with some international solidarity movement volunteers who are Western volunteers.
They were wearing, you know, their uniforms showing that they're, you know, rescue workers.
And he was just shot by a sniper, not once, but three times on camera.
This video was conveyed internationally by mainstream outlets.
And we met with his family just a few weeks after that took place, and they were destroyed.
And his younger brother was crying openly and talking about how much he missed his older brother.
This kid was 15 years old, and he was, you know, you could just see that he wasn't eating properly.
His eyes looked like kind of just hollow, and his face was gaunt.
And Dan met with him many months later as he was growing up.
They went to the cemetery where Salim was buried, and he sat on the grave of his brother and told Dan, you know, the only way I can get my dignity back, and this is the experience that all my friends have, because they've all lost their brothers and their fathers and mothers, or their friends have been killed, the only way I can get my dignity back is to be a fighter.
And that's one of, and the only structure in the Gaza Strip, because Israel destroys every institution, and it's so difficult to do anything else.
One of the only, you know, places where young people can find structure is within the summer camps that Hamas runs, which are a funnel into the Al-Qassam Brigade.
So this young guy who, I mean, Dan can talk more about the different, you know, people he met who shared this view, he wasn't motivated by religion.
He didn't want to go and slaughter all the Jews.
He just wanted to get revenge because he watched his brother be executed on TV.
Yeah, well, and you know, so, I mean, this is kind of a theme throughout the entire thing, all the different interviews, and, you know, I don't know what all made the cut and what didn't, Dan, but I didn't hear anyone sound like a bin Ladenite.
You know, people obviously, you know, reference God a lot, but it was all very, you know, earthly and political grievances that they had, as Max is saying about this interview with the brother of the rescuer executed on film, as he said, as we all saw back in 2014, which is just devastating, the interview of the surviving brother there.
But they all kind of talk like that, right?
The one guy digs down in the dirt and says, you see this dirt?
This is my land, right?
He sounds just like exactly what a Texan would say.
Someone's trying to take his land from him.
Yeah, exactly.
That's exactly it.
That's a, you know, way that Americans should be able to relate that it's, you know, this foreign invasion coming to kick me off my land, and I got to take up arms and, you know, so nobody can jump my claim.
But, yeah, I mean, that's, you know, it's simply just a case of people defending themselves, and there's, you know, and what we show is the myriad of ways that people suffer and the hell that they, you know, survived, or in some cases didn't survive throughout this 51-day war.
And then in the aftermath, when, you know, the foreign journalists had left and, you know, the deaths are not necessarily the result of a direct missile strike, so they don't make the news, you know, whether it's an infant freezing to death in the cold in the winter because the family's home was bombed out and they're not allowed to rebuild.
Israel prevents building materials from coming back in.
So the hundred thousand family homes that were destroyed, only a small handful of those were ever rebuilt to this day.
And so, you know, you have people living in rubble, you have entire neighborhoods that were wiped out, and their inhabitants forced to live in shipping containers, which is, like, you know, a popular thing for, like, hipsters, I think, to do is live in a shipping container now and kit it out.
Yeah, which is fine if you have a rich dad and it's your choice, but not the same thing as being a refugee, is it?
Yeah, exactly.
So when you're, like, forced to live in a metal box on the Mediterranean shores in the summer, where this box is just, like, it's like living in an oven, or in the winter, where it's just, like, it's like being in a freezer, and you have your entire family and, you know, your ailing mother in there.
It's just absolute hell and suffering.
And there were so many people like that.
I mean, one of the things I think to keep in mind when you watch the film is, we're just providing a tiny peek into this entire, you know, reality of what people went through.
So every story that you see represents, like, I don't know, a thousand more that are at least as horrible as, you know, the one you're seeing.
Yeah.
Yeah, you know, it's, it really is eye opening.
And, you know, so talk about the guy that lives in the refugee camp by the sea there who talked about, you know, how he already had tried to poison himself to death, just due to just being completely broken by the responsibility of trying to care for his people and being unable to.
Dan filmed that, and I'll let him go in.
But just if you're listening to this, the film is Killing Gaza, killinggaza.com.
And you can just watch it for three bucks.
Right after this discussion.
I just wanted to chime in with that.
I was gonna say it again at the end, too.
But yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, so that was during the winter of 2015-2016.
And it was during, you know, there was this brutal spell of wind and rain and basically freezing temperatures, which, you know, you wouldn't expect that the Mediterranean shores get, but it got excruciatingly cold.
And especially if you don't have, you know, heating or anything in your house.
And so for the people who are living in the rubble, I mean, it's just, it's every day is a battle to just survive in those kinds of conditions.
And so I went out to document this.
And I went to the Shati Refugee Camp, which is, Shati is beach, it's the beach refugee camp where descendants of Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed primarily from Jaffa, which is a historic Palestinian city that Israel continues actually to colonize and is connected to Tel Aviv.
So you know, so you can go there and see the like, hipster, Israeli artist colony.
Well, the original descendants are, yeah, in this refugee camp, or the original inhabitants are in this refugee camp in Gaza.
And I'm standing there, and there's almost no one on the streets, I was just going to film the weather conditions.
And there's this man looking at me.
And he came to my friend and he asks, he sees that I'm a white guy.
And he's like, Can that guy help me?
And I told him, Well, I can't help you.
All I can do is, you know, share your story.
So he's like, okay.
And so he sits down and just proceeds to tell us how he has been unable to pay, pay his rent for years.
He's been kicked out of his home dozens of times.
He has a family to feed his wife is asking him for a divorce.
It's almost it was like a it's like a Rodney Dangerfield, like bit where, you know, it's just like one thing is worse.
Like it's just like one after the other.
It's so bad, so bad, so bad.
But it's, it's not funny.
It's just horrifying.
And finally, I went to meet him in his house, and he tells me all this stuff.
And he confesses to me that he tried to poison himself.
But the only thing that kept him from actually doing it, you know, he wasn't successful in killing himself the first time.
And the only thing that kept him from actually, you know, doing it again, was the thought of his children fatherless.
And, you know, that's, that's all that was keeping him from, from going over the edge.
And, you know, this is the story of crushing poverty that so many people experience in Gaza.
And, you know, what, what is considered a decent income for, you know, you and me in the US is like, you know, King's riches for someone like that.
You know, where a couple dollars makes, you know, the difference between, you know, living for a week or two or, or just being hungry, and maybe, you know, giving any, any, essentially pennies you come across to your children to be able to eat.
And so that's the reality for, for, you know, frankly, hundreds of thousands, millions of people in Gaza.
Yeah, you know, I forgot, it was one of these former Israeli prime ministers who had said that, well, you know, given time, they'll forget.
And, you know, I guess, in other words, the Palestinian refugees, they'll become Syrian, they'll become Jordanian, and, and things will move on.
And the thing is, maybe that would have been possible if they had let the Palestinians have independence and peace and prosperity in the West Bank and Gaza, and have, if people can't have the right to return to their homes, their parents and grandparents were expelled from in so-called Israel proper, at least they could have a decent what's left of that 22% of Palestine there, but then they can't have that either.
So, as Phil Wise put it great the other day, they haven't figured out how to do this.
Like, what do they, they don't know what to do with their Palestinian population.
You know, we talked about Hamas rules, the Gaza Strip, and that's the excuse for so much of this violence on Israel side.
And as Max said, Hamas plays their part, for sure in that.
And, and, you know, sometimes it gets mentioned about the Gaza bombshell article by David Rose there about the aftermath of the elections and the failed coup, which really led to Hamas's takeover of Gaza.
But, you know, we always forget to mention, is this not part of the narrative that they killed Yasser Arafat too, right?
And that was why there was even the possibility that Hamas would take over the Gaza Strip in the first place as they had their partner for peace.
And so they poisoned him to death.
Yeah.
I mean, they wanted, they wanted to get to Abbas and now Abbas isn't good enough.
Well, yeah, it was Ben-Gurion who said that the old will die and the young will forget.
And that really hasn't happened for pretty obvious reason in the Gaza Strip, which is that it's impossible to forget that you're under siege and that you're dispossessed.
And what we tried to accomplish with Killing Gaza, which you can see at killinggaza.com, is to really make it, bring you into the atmosphere of siege, make it as intimate as possible, make you feel what it's like to be in Gaza where there's just no space to escape from the siege.
I mean, there's really nowhere where you can just completely ignore it unless you stay maybe close to the beach and you're extremely wealthy, except now the beach is just flowing with sewage because sewage is being openly pumped into the water because there's no, because the sanitation system has been destroyed by Israel.
We visited the Bisan Amusement Center and Zoo, which I think no longer exists.
And it was the only zoo in the Gaza Strip.
And when we got there, the zoo had been bombed and there were dead monkeys everywhere.
There were animals walking around in their cages, like, you know, we filmed a group of gray foxes running around in circles in their cage.
And it was the perfect metaphor for the Gaza Strip, just looking at these foxes run around in circles, seeing insane ostriches and, you know, lions that had been driven mad by bombing.
And, you know, so and there were children trying to play on what was left of the amusement park.
And it's just like, what life will these children have?
There's no diversion.
And, you know, what Israel would have done, I don't know if it would have been possible, because you can't just easily dispossess people and ethnically cleanse them without resistance, is sort of the model that the U.S. has employed to depoliticize and demobilize its own population.
It's bread and circuses.
Just give them amusement.
And that's something that's sort of impossible, particularly in the Gaza Strip.
There just isn't any physical space.
And that's why the Great March of Return happened.
I mean, I think if you watch Killing Gaza, you'll understand why so many young men were willing to run into a hail of Israeli bullets and charge at this fence that's holding them in from having a future.
And what you're seeing now, actually, which is just so remarkable, is that a lot of these young men have had their legs blown off, either in this wave of protest against the siege or during wars, and they keep coming back to the protest in their wheelchairs and crutches.
They just keep coming back because it's impossible to forget.
Well, I mean, we got an article today by Jonathan Cook, we're running on antiwar.com, about Fathi Harb, this man who, like the Buddhist monk in South Vietnam, or I'm sorry, I always forget the guy's name in Tunisia, that kicked off the Arab Spring Riot in 2011, set himself on fire, burned himself to death.
I'm sorry?
I think his name was Bouazizi.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
From the Tunisian.
I mean, this is, you know, the iconic image, of course, there's the famous picture of the Buddhist monk in South Vietnam protesting the Catholic sock puppet government there.
I mean, this is, and Cook's article is called The Flames That Killed Fathi Harb Should Shame Us All.
I mean, boy, got that right.
I mean, that's the whole thing about it, right?
Someone was asking me, hey, don't I have the right to just not care about this?
And I, you know, I would say, yeah, except that the U.S. government is behind all of this.
This is our business.
It's not just y'all's business, because y'all were Jewish and raised Zionist.
It's all of our business, because we're Americans, and they're picking our pocket to fund all this.
Well, yeah, I mean, it's the whole experience that I think both Dan and I had of reporting from Israel-Palestine has taken us, I think, beyond the mentality that many people who get into the issue as anti-Zionists hold.
I think you have to see the U.S. behind the whole thing.
You have to see it as part of the imperial project, even if Israel doesn't represent American interests and is actually, in many cases, a liability to empire.
It's an extension of it.
It was constructed as an extension of it, particularly after 67.
And so, you know, it is every American's business.
And we have to see the U.S. as the greatest barrier, not only to peace in the region, but to the ability of Palestinians to have any semblance of dignity or basic political rights.
And that's just from administration to administration.
It's the same.
I mean, this isn't a Trump problem.
This is an American problem.
Absolutely.
All right.
Now, Dan, before we go, would you pick one more, tell us one more story about some of the Palestinians you met here and put in your movie.
It's such a great film.
I hope everyone will watch it again, Killing Gaza.
Definitely.
Well, you know, I think one of the one of the aims we had for the film was not only showing Gaza's population as hapless victims, which, you know, certainly they are victims, but also as people who resist in a myriad of ways, whether that's through unarmed resistance with, you know, young people, especially people like Malak Matar, who is a painter.
She was, during the 2014 war, she was sitting in her bedroom while the bombs were dropping around her.
And she was deeply depressed and, you know, terrified.
And she was given a paintbrush at school and some paints.
And she began painting and discovered this incredible talent she had.
And so that's what she would do while the bombs were dropping.
And after is just sit in her room and paint.
And soon her her walls and basically everywhere were covered with these beautiful portraits of Palestinian life.
And she has since become kind of one of Gaza's, you know, brightest talents.
And now she's she's she managed to get out after a long struggle.
She's studying in Istanbul.
We also show Gaza's first b-boy crew, their break dancers called the Camp Breakers.
And this was started by a couple of guys from Nusayrat Refugee Camp, which basically in order to escape the incredibly tense and severe political life.
And they they just they learned to break dance, but they were really unable to hone their craft because it requires the ability to travel.
They have to be able to compete with other b-boys internationally to learn their moves and this sort of thing.
And they were stuck in Gaza, so they couldn't really do that.
And it goes to show the importance of being able to move and travel freely and what that actually means for people.
And and they and they also ran a dance center in the refugee camp that, you know, when I went to visit them there and they they were teaching, you know, five year old kids, five year old boys and girls how to dance.
And it really became this incredible coping mechanism for these kids who had just survived this horrid war.
But we you know, while there was many people found outlets in unarmed resistance, we also profiled fighters in one of the popular resistance brigades, the Al-Nasr Salahuddin Brigade, which is a combination of Fatah and Hamas fighters.
So it's not you know, they're not ideologically they're not all ideologically aligned one way or the other.
And that, you know, well, if you watch Western media, anyone who picks up arms or even doesn't, but in Gaza is portrayed as just some bloodthirsty, psychotic terrorist.
But when I sat down with these guys, I actually went out with them in an olive field where they were training.
And actually, the first day I went out, a drone was hovering over us, which was a pretty terrifying moment.
And so we all had to kind of scatter.
And then we came back a few days later and met again.
And I filmed with these guys as they were training for, you know, close combat.
And also, they you know, they showed me some of the rockets and how they move those around.
And you see that in the film.
And I sat down with these guys and they told me what motivates them to fight.
And it's, you know, anything that it's something that you and I would be able to relate to.
It's occupation.
It's siege.
It's having your your, you know, land stolen and you're forced into exile and living under these inhumane conditions.
And so it's very understandable why people resist.
And then, you know, in combination with showing Wasim Shamali's story where, you know, a young boy whose brother was murdered in front of him, why, you know, you can see exactly why someone like that would end up joining an armed resistance movement.
And then you see who these people are.
And so, you know, we kind of try to show Palestinians as fully rounded human beings, not just, you know, not as bloodthirsty terrorists or as, you know, one dimensional victims.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, that is really important.
That's Ramsey Baroud's new thing, too.
He has a whole new book all about the Palestinians that is not about their lives in the context of Israel and its policies, but just who they are and what they're about because they're just human beings.
And that's what I like about this stuff.
It's just like they never show pictures of downtown Tehran on TV.
They never show what Gaza is like.
If they ever show Gaza at all, it'd be just a matte bird's eye view, but not even then, usually.
But so, yeah, here they are.
They're just humans, just like everybody else.
And what an amazing, you know, kind of shocking portrayal, not just the rubble in the background, but just, you know, like you're saying, these guys dancing, they're exactly like b-boys in every town in America, you know, only the background is what's different, the siege that they live under there.
And so just for the news this morning, there were some wounded Gazans trying to get out of Gaza.
I don't know if they were trying to sail around to Alexandria or something.
Right.
And to Cyprus, they're going to Cyprus.
Oh, to Cyprus and stopped by the Israeli Navy.
Yep.
And, you know, I guess that's the thing, right?
People don't know that.
I mean, these people really are prisoners.
They're not allowed to travel unless the Israelis say so, the same Israelis that blew their legs off in the first place.
Yeah, I think one of the let me make this point, I think it's important to understand that, you know, especially as the Syrian refugee crisis was at its height in 2015, 2016, and even during 2014, that Palestinians in Gaza would have been fleeing into the sea as well.
And we would have been seeing horrifying videos of them drowning at sea, just like we saw with African migrants and refugees.
But we didn't because they are held in Gaza at gunpoint.
But you can be sure that many of them would flee.
But Israel's just holding them in at gunpoint.
And any Palestinian who attempts to escape by sea, they're usually shot at.
The flotilla that went out yesterday, the Israelis fired what they call warning shots, meaning, if you don't turn back now, we're going to shoot and kill you.
And it's actually very frequent that the Israelis will shoot fishermen, unarmed fishermen who are simply just, you know, going out to try to catch some guppies to feed their families.
And they get shot and they get their boats confiscated.
Well, we actually went on one of those boats.
We weren't able to include it in the film just because of time.
And, you know, after the boat goes out and this is the real deadliest catch, the boat goes out and can't get to the deeper waters where the big fish are.
And they get, you know, as Dan said, a bunch of guppies.
And then we ran into the teeth of the Israeli Navy.
And this cruiser boat just basically warned us off and said, if you keep going, we'll shoot you.
And often the fishermen who try to get bigger fish so they can feed their families or sell it in the market to feed their families, they wind up getting shot.
Many of the guys in the crew that we spent the night with had been arrested and spent years in Israeli prisons or had been shot.
And, you know, they're on the verge, they're living on the brink.
So this is, you know, it's also the Egyptian military and the whole Camp David, you know, the Camp David agreement between Israel and Egypt became a recipe for siege.
It really set the stage for siege because Palestinians are held in by the Egyptians as well at the behest of the Americans and the Israelis.
The southernmost city in Gaza is called Rafah.
And there is an Egyptian side to the city of Rafah.
And as soon as Sisi came into power after the coup against the elected Muslim Brotherhood government, his military set out to detonating tens of thousands of homes on the Egyptian side that were used for the tunnel economy that had kept Gaza afloat.
And there was just massive brutality that was kind of completely ignored in American media against the Egyptian residents of Rafah.
And, you know, this is all to hold Gaza in and tighten the siege, because Egypt also has an interest in breaking the political structure of the Gaza Strip.
And it has that interest in part because the U.S. props up the Egyptian military with so much aid to do just that.
Yeah.
Well, about four billion a year to Israel, about a billion and a half to Egypt to make nice with Israel all this time.
Yeah.
And that's the Egyptian military owns one third of the Egyptian economy and makes it impossible for Egyptians to have a civil society.
Hmm.
Dan, you were going to say.
Oh, no, I didn't have anything.
Oh, sorry.
All right.
Well, listen, guys, we should wrap up.
We're at about an hour here.
I'll let either of you have a last word or both, if you like.
Well, I just I would just say that, you know, there's not going to be a Netflix documentary about Gaza, about rescue workers in Gaza or any other people in Gaza that wins an Oscar.
This film is not going to be mass distributed.
It's not going to get reviewed.
There's no public relations firm pushing the Palestinian narrative in this film into the mainstream media.
And so we just decided to release it after three years.
We crowdfunded the whole thing.
We don't have any big backers.
Our viewers are the backers.
But we think we put something together that's extremely powerful and watchable that lifts the curtain on what the U.S. and Israel and Egypt are doing in Gaza, told in the voices of the people who are living through it.
We really don't inject ourselves into it, except to briefly explain and provide some context about the situation that viewers are witnessing.
So, you know, if you if you want to really see what it's like, just a kind of just a snippet of life in the Gaza Strip, KillingGaza.com, you can rent the film for three bucks or you can buy it for five bucks.
And I think coffee costs more than five bucks in most coffee shops in Brooklyn.
So it's a pretty good buy.
Yeah, definitely.
And hey, look, everybody, take it from me, your host.
It's great.
I watched it last night.
It's about what you'd expect.
It's horrifying and excellent.
So, Dan, anything?
No, just, you know, really appreciate you having us on and everybody, you know, check out the film.
Like Max said, this is not something you're going to see in your local AMC or Harkins.
And George Clooney is not going to not going to promote it.
And and this is, you know, what what mainstream media, what the kind of elites in this country don't want you to see that, you know, what's what's really happening in our name and and what's, you know, behind the curtain.
Yeah, absolutely.
All right.
Well, thanks again, both you guys.
That's Dan Cohen and Max Blumenthal.
The film is called Killing Gaza.
It's a killing Gaza dot com.
You can find a link to it also at Mondo Weiss dot net where they have a write up of it and a link at the bottom there.
It's on Vimeo.
A couple of bucks there.
Three bucks.
Right.
So thanks again to both of you.
Appreciate it.
Thank you.
I really appreciate it.
All right.
You guys know the deal.
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