07/26/13 – Adam Morrow – The Scott Horton Show

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All right, thanks a lot.
Next up is our good friend Adam Morrow, reporter for InterPress Service.
That's ipsnews.net, living in Cairo, and today's Friday, Pray Outside Day.
Welcome back to the show.
How are you doing?
Good, Scott.
Good.
I appreciate you joining us.
Now, it really matters that everybody goes and prays outside on Friday, because that means that whenever prayers are done, everybody's already ready, all ready to have a fight or to have a peaceful kumbaya, drum circle, or whatever it is they're going to do.
It's pretty much on every Friday in Cairo these days, am I right?
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, this Friday, it's certainly no exception.
And in fact, it's kind of seen as a culmination to the last, you know, everything that's happened over the course of the last month since Morsi was ousted by the military in a military coup.
Yeah, we've had basically four weeks of sort of sustained sit-ins and demonstrations by Morsi supporters that have been in the hundreds of thousands, with two main protest venues in Cairo and a lot of other protest activity going on outside of Cairo in the governorates.
But unfortunately, it's extremely difficult to gauge the size of this pro-Morsi activity because the media is so complicit right now in what's going on.
There are only two or three satellite channels that are actually covering the pro-Morsi stuff, the most prominent of which is Al Jazeera, which I believe has been jammed for the last couple of weeks.
The Morsi military is jamming their signal, so it's difficult to get even that.
I know the Hamas channel, which is the Al-Quds channel, is covering it, so you can get an idea of its size from that.
But yeah, it's crazy.
It's really crazy.
And things have come to a head today where you've got two massive, you know, two rival protest calls.
Right now, I live just two or three blocks away from Tahrir, and I just walked through there just an hour ago, and I can tell you it was standing room only.
It was absolutely packed.
And these are people that are basically in support of the military coup and who are calling for Morsi and the Brotherhood to be prosecuted and all of this sort of stuff.
And you've got two simultaneous, two other protests going on as well that are being staged by Morsi supporters.
But like I said, those are getting much less press, and it's very difficult to gauge their size, although they're massive.
They're said to be unprecedented in size.
Well, now, so, you know, libertarian critics of democracy like to point out that the most basic definition is just majority rules, and that's not any way to run a society when whoever can cobble together 51 percent can lord it over everybody else.
So it's just a...
Look, this is a perfect example.
What we're seeing right now is a perfect example of this idea of democracy being, you know, being basically a sort of glorified mob rule.
That's exactly what we've got right now.
And the whole thing is perfectly, perfectly exemplified by two days ago, if you remember, I'm sure you saw this, General Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, who's the defense minister and basically the military commander-in-chief, the armed forces commander-in-chief right now, basically came out, and the de facto ruler of the country, basically came out two days ago and urged Egyptians to hit the streets again, to basically put the Islamists in their place, to do another June 30th, to have, like, a June 30th redux, and basically in order to...
The way he phrased it was to give him a mandate, was to basically provide him with a popular mandate to fight terror, to wage this war, to wage a war on terrorism, which is an incredibly remarkable language, in that the Islamist protests until now have been entirely peaceful.
Oh man, so, wait a minute, he's characterizing the whole movement to support the Muslim Brotherhood as terrorism against the Egyptian state at this point?
Yep, yep, yep, I mean, absolutely explicitly.
Yeah.
Absolutely explicitly.
And the Tamarid movement, which has gotten so much press, you know, this was the signature campaign that basically spearheaded the calls for the June 30th protests that led to Morsi's ouster.
Basically, this Tamarid campaign is coming out and saying, look, you know, we support the, we support El-Sisi's calls for protests, we urge Egyptians to go down on the street in order to show their support for the armed forces, for the police, and to show support for them in their coming war against terror.
So, the language that's coming out of these people, I mean, basically we have the installation of a, I mean, a perfect definition of a fascist dictatorship, where you've got this meeting between, you know, a big business and the military, and then you've got this media that's entirely owned by the former, that's played such a big role in everything that's going on.
And it's basically, what you're seeing now is basically the reversal of the January 25th revolution.
You basically have, Tahrir Square now has become a symbol of, you know, military sort of authoritarianism.
Two years after it was a symbol of, you know, it was a symbol of liberation and national unity and all of that stuff.
I mean, basically, from what I can tell, the Mubarak regime has basically recaptured Tahrir Square now, and is now actually riding what it sees as a popular mandate, probably because of the numbers that they managed to mobilize recently, in recent protests, including the ones today.
It's amazing.
Now, see, the thing is...
It's a dark day.
Now, liberal democracy is supposed to also include respect for individual and minority rights and a free press and an independent judiciary, right?
People throw the word democracy around.
It's supposed to include a lot of these things, including regular elections, where if you lose last time, better luck next time.
I'm not necessarily promoting this as the ultimate, you know, end of history system of how mankind should operate or anything, but it sure seems a lot better than a military dictatorship.
But what we have here is the mob is demanding military dictatorship to protect them from the people who won a bare majority in the elections.
Yeah, and it wasn't even just a bare majority in the...
It was a narrow, narrow, narrow margin in the presidential election.
It was 51, 52 percent.
But the parliamentary election, again, people forget about the parliamentary elections, and the parliament also was unilaterally dissolved by the military about a year ago.
But that was 75 percent Islamist.
So, you know, I mean, there definitely is an Islamist majority.
But that being said, you know, the damage they've managed to do with the media that got left in place when Morsi assumed control.
I mean, we talked about this last time.
He barely scratched the surface in terms of getting at the deep state.
I mean, he basically...
The Mubarak-era judiciary is all entirely intact.
The Mubarak-era police apparatus is entirely intact.
The military, obviously, is entirely intact.
The private media, which is owned almost exclusively by wealthy business people who are closely affiliated with Mubarak, was all left entirely intact to do with, to pump out its poison.
And now the state...
What's interesting is the state media has, overnight, reverted to its old ways.
Just, you know what I mean?
There was no resistance.
As soon as Morsi was taken out of the equation, it immediately reverted back and is now totally pro-CC, pro-military, pro-all of this authoritarianism that's going on right now.
Well, you know, Adam, that's exactly what Eric Margulies said, too, that for all the criticism against the Muslim Brotherhood for, you know, going for broke and trying to usurp all this power, you know, there was the outward appearance of cronyism because of putting a Muslim Brotherhood guy in this and that position.
But when it came to actually cleaning house and turning out the old regime, they were terrified, as he put it, of their own shadow, afraid to move at all.
And then, as you've been explaining, the state refused to follow their direction.
Right, right.
So, like, the police wouldn't even go out on the street for a year.
Exactly.
Exactly.
For which Morsi took the blame.
And everybody blamed Morsi for the big security vacuum.
But it's, yeah, it's definitely something to bear in mind, that all these Mubarak-era institutions remain fully intact.
And it's strange how he, this, I just wanted to say this idea of this, you know, Brotherhood authoritarianism or all of these power grabs that they were trying to, they were undemocratic or they were, you know, they were trying to monopolize power.
It was called, here it was called the Brotherhoodization of the state, was a big mantra that was repeated ad infinitum over the last year.
I think that was, I think that was vastly overblown.
I think there was a lot of exaggeration in that.
And I think basically any time when he tried to, any time Morsi tried to basically replace Mubarak-era people with new blood, I think that all of that got, was immediately accused of being Brotherhoodization.
Even if it wasn't necessarily a Brotherhood people, they'd say, oh, but yeah, but this new appointment is sympathetic to the Brotherhood.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Right.
It's like they just sort of used that.
They sort of, it was an operation, you know?
Well, now here's the thing too, Adam, is, and this is just my own personal bias where it may not have anything to do with anything, I guess, but to me, the Muslim Brotherhood, they're Islamists, but they're conservatives, right?
They're not like Ayman al-Zawahiri and his suicide bomber brigade of radical, basically Islamist-Leninists in a way, right?
Oh, yeah, no.
They're conservative.
So to me, I equate them basically to like Pat Robertson and the hardcore Republican, acceptable to the Republicans, but the religious conservative right here in America.
And I hate those guys.
And if America was taken over by Pat Robertson and the faction, you could point to, yeah, but a lot of people support them.
And my answer would be, oh, man, but those people should go to hell and they should take Pat Robertson with them.
And so in this case, and I'm sure my analogy is terrible, but in this case, man, I really do side with the people who wanted to see the Muslim Brotherhood gone.
I would hate to be ruled by the Muslim Brotherhood.
And I'm not saying that the current regime is better, but why is it that the liberals are willing to go back to the Mubarakists?
It's not like the liberals are winning out here.
The old regime is winning out here, as you say, but the liberals are out there in Tahir Square by the thousands, maybe more, chanting and cheering.
What's interesting is the CC's appeal two days ago for people to sort of hit the streets and support the army and the police in their coming war on terror and violence and all of this thing was definitely a watershed.
I think a lot of people sort of realized, thinking people, people whose ability to think critically is still intact, those people realized that something was deeply wrong.
I mean, why does this guy have to seek a public mandate in the form of mass protests?
I mean, they have a vice president, they have an interim president, they have a prime minister, they have a deputy prime minister.
Why would this?
It really showed that he is, in fact, remains the de facto ruler of the country and that this idea that there's a civilian government in place is entirely window dressing, is entirely superficial.
So what's interesting is you are starting to hear about certain people that would have cast themselves as leftists or revolutionaries who are now showing up at the Brotherhood, who are now showing up at the pro-Morsi demonstrations, who sort of realized they were happy to see Morsi go, but only now are they starting to realize, especially after CC's statements two days ago, that what happened was a counter-revolution.
I mean, there's no getting around this.
The old regime is back, and it's back with a vengeance, and it's back with what it perceives to be a popular mandate now, which has made it only all that more aggressive.
I mean, look at what they did from the very get-go, closing all of the Islamist stations in one fell swoop, and then jailing all of the leaders, or jailing all of these leading Islamists and high-ranking Brotherhood members.
I mean, Morsi, nobody knows where he is.
And in fact, I wanted to say this is an important point.
This is something that just came up today.
He's apparently been charged, he's now been detained for this 15-day period, a pending investigation into charges that he was spying for Hamas.
I mean, this is the latest accusation.
Well, listen, Al Jazeera's crawl right now says he's accused of contacting Hamas to help him escape from prison.
In 2011, during the 2011 revolution, exactly.
Ah, oh, okay.
Well, yeah, I got it on mute, because I'm listening to you instead.
But, yeah, well.
I mean, this is something that was celebrated, the fact that these political prisoners managed to escape from Mubarak's prisons in 2011.
That was something, until recently, was celebrated, and it was seen as something cool, you know?
Now they don't mind charging him with that as his criminal offense that they have against him.
That's interesting.
Exactly.
Now we're seeing a recriminalization.
Now we're seeing, after they briefly held a majority in Parliament and held the presidency, we're now seeing this group about to be recriminalized.
Yeah.
And I'll tell you the repercussions that that has.
You know, the people I feel most sorry for in all of this are actually the people of Gaza, who, after Morsi's election, were really looking forward to a new period of, they thought the siege was going to be lifted, they thought that they were going to finally be able to breathe, that there was finally going to be some let-up to this siege that's been going on, and it's now seven or eight years that they've been the world's largest open-air prison, and now they're looking at this and just thinking, my God.
And it's not just that Morsi's been taken out of the equation and the Brotherhood has been taken out of the equation, or is at risk of being taken out of the equation, but there's a real scary anti-Palestinian and specifically anti-resistance aspect to all the stuff that's going on in Egypt now, where you have people saying, oh, you know, one of the common lies of so many lies that's being pumped out by the media about Morsi is that, oh, one reason why we had these fuel crises was because Morsi was secretly sending all of our fuel to the Gaza Strip, you know, and it's created crazy stuff like this, or that Hamas was responsible for the death of 16 Egyptian soldiers, if you remember that, last August, August of last year.
Well, I'm more to a point on the fuel one, in other words, ridiculous, impossible accusations.
Oh, ridiculous, ridiculous.
I mean, the Hamas accusation about killing the soldiers is equally ridiculous, because that, I mean, they have nothing to, they would have nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing something like that.
I mean, they were just about to open the border when that attack occurred, and that attack basically resulted in the border to be reclosed, you know, or closed again.
So, yeah, so you've got this very scary, you also have a lot of, in this complicit media, you've got a lot of incitement against Palestinians now, especially Palestinians from Gaza, and you also have incitement against Syrians now as well, because they're saying that Syrian refugees in Egypt, you know, because you have the Muslim Brotherhood is fighting against, in Syria is fighting against, is a big component of the opposition to Assad.
You've got, now you have people here saying that you've got these Syrians, Syrian refugees in Egypt that are joining the pro-Morsi protests.
So, you're actually seeing, if you're hearing about attacks, just random attacks on Palestinians and Syrians now that are totally the result of this incitement that's coming out of the media.
So, it's just very, very scary.
It's just very, very scary times, and it very, very puts Hamas and the whole notion of sort of resistance to Israel in a very, very tenuous position now.
Well, and look, that's the key to this whole thing, is that this is, because this is what Israel wants, this is an American operation.
Remember, half a year ago, the beginning of this year, Adam, Philip Giraldi, former CIA officer, was saying that he was hearing from CIA that Saudi and Qatar were financing these mobs to go out there and cause trouble, not just protest, but, you know, make a mess out of it, break things, and fight people, and whatever, in their protest in order to try to bring down the weak in Morsi.
I don't know if it would be Qatar that would do it, because Qatar has a weird relationship, even though it is absolutely a client state of the U.S.
I think I mixed up the Qatar accusation there.
I think he was just saying Saudis, right, when we talked about this half a year ago?
Saudi and the Emirates, Saudi and the United Arab Emirates are the two that are basically, have made no secret of their antipathy towards the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood.
Yeah, well, and these are American sock puppet states, and it's not really, to me, if Obama didn't order them to do it, he at least didn't tell them to stop, which makes it, either way, kind of a, you know, de facto his responsibility, and as Eric Margulies put it on the show, the Egyptian military is just part of the American military.
You might as well just consider it a division of the American Pentagon, simple as that.
So, if they did this, it's because Obama told them to do it, because the U.S. military told them to do it, no doubt about it.
And did you notice just today, actually, I think they, I think Obama said decisively that it wasn't a coup.
I think he came out and finally said, we don't consider this, we don't consider this a coup.
I actually usually don't listen to the things he says.
I try to look at what he does.
Neither do I, neither do I, I just happen to see it in a headline somewhere.
But yeah, it could be, I mean, obviously, they're not calling up on the hotline and saying, how dare you cancel democracy?
You know what I mean?
It's sort of like Madeleine Albright in 98 going, oh yeah, we're very concerned about this coup in Pakistan.
Yeah, sure you are.
Right, right, right.
What's weird is you also have Qatar, which is no less of a sock puppet, I mean, that's, that's for sure.
But they do, they do support the brotherhood.
And I, you know, I have to say, Gazeta has done a really, really good job.
I mean, it's, it's, it's constantly accused of being biased here.
I mean, every, you get a lot of people here who hate Gazeta, because they say it's biased towards the Muslim Brotherhood.
When actually, I mean, all it's doing is covering, it's like the only channel that's actually covering any of the pro-Morsi stuff.
So has there been much of a change on Al Jazeera since the father got kicked upstairs and the son took power over there?
That's a very good question.
Now, I, I had kind of thought that we would see something like that, because when Morsi, when Morsi was first ousted, and that was, again, that was almost a month ago, that was on the third of this month.
When he was first ousted, Qatar sort of sold him down the river very quickly.
Qatar didn't really object and sort of sent congratulations to Egypt's new rulers, which I thought was very, very strange.
And I think that was only just a matter of days after the, after the, the transition of power there.
So that is a good question, if there has been, if there, I haven't noticed anything on Al Jazeera.
I've been focusing exclusively on the Egypt coverage, and that has been, has remained the same, and it's been, it's been very intensive, very intensive coverage of the, of what's, of events in Egypt.
But like I said, like I said, it's incredible that the, I, I'm assuming that it's the military.
I don't know who else would do it, but that all the Al Jazeera channels, including, including normal Arabic Al Jazeera, and then also English Al Jazeera, and then also Al Jazeera Mubasher, which is their live, they have a live channel that's devoted exclusively to Egypt coverage, and it's, they get, they get a lot of good live coverage.
All of these are being scrambled.
All of these are being scrambled, especially when, especially when you see, when pro-Morsi demonstrations and marches and this sort of thing are being, are being shown, they immediately scramble the images.
In fact, I saw an interesting, they had an interview, an interview with four people.
They had a pro-Morsi guy here, and an anti-Morsi guy here, and then they had a Hamas guy, and they had a fascist guy, all in one sort of roundtable interview.
And whenever the Hamas guy spoke, I noticed they would, the image would suddenly scramble.
I, I, I mean, I don't know, maybe that was just coincidence, but it's, but the, but the, but the efforts that the, again, the role that the media is playing in all of this is really, I mean, it's really in your face.
It's really, really shocking how obviously they're just, they're trying to isolate these people.
I mean, these people who, like you said, won a majority.
I mean, these are, what would the, what, what are these people's crime really is that they, that they won five elections since the, since the revolution.
Well, and you know, you told me, you know, right before the most recent bout of protest started back up again, that look, if they held, or maybe right when it was starting back up again, we're talking a month ago or something, that if they held snap elections, the Muslim Brotherhood would win again.
That's why everybody's so pissed off out in the square is because they can't win by voting.
Well, I mean, yeah.
And they got the right, by the way, because, you know, I'm a, I'm an individualist.
I don't think that, you know, a bare majority qualifies anybody to rule anybody, but at least, you know, that was, that's the point being they really do have support from great numbers of regular Egyptian people who, especially people who aren't necessarily tied to some special interest of the states or another.
Now that I think that was the case in the immediate wake of the revolution.
I think that, I think the media has managed to put a major dent though, in their, in their, in the support they have.
I think the last two years of non-stop propaganda and incitement against the Muslim Brotherhood in particular, and Islamists in general by the media, which has been 24-7.
And Scott, let me tell you, I've got interesting personal anecdotes where I've actually seen how the media will work on people.
I've got this barber that I go to once a week, right, just to get a shave with a straight razor, just, you know, just for kicks.
And every time I walk into this guy, he's the nicest guy, he's an old man, very, very, you know, very funny, very lovable old guy.
And yet every time I walk into his little barber shop, he's got these same channels, these rabidly anti-Islamist channels that are run by Naguib Sawiris and other big businessmen that are, that were all very closely connected with Mubarak.
In fact, Sawiris admitted that he had, he had financed the Tamarid, he had covertly financed the Tamarid movement.
But so, so whenever I go into this guy's barber shop, it's like, and he's always got it on peak volume.
I don't know if he's, if he's hard of hearing, but he's, he's always got this, this hardcore rabid anti-Islamist propaganda blasting at him all the time, like every waking hour.
And I, and I remember asking him kind of early on what he thought of Morsi and stuff.
And he just, just gave me, it just went into this long rant, this poisonous rant of, you know, how, how much he hated Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood.
And it's, you know, I can see it.
That's because these, that's because people are just being bombarded.
They're just being bombarded by these, by these television channels.
Morsi tried to, they tried to clean up, there were, there were, there were often cries.
One of the demands of protesters, Islamist protesters for a long time was purge of the, sorry, purge of the media because they knew the damage, the toll that it was taking in their standing, you know, in their, in their popular standing on the, on the street, because the, that the pow people really don't realize that if you've got the media at your, at your, you know, at your beck and call, you can, how easy it is, how incredibly easy it is to change public opinion.
And if you've got that going for one year, two years, I mean, you're going to see, you're going to lose like 30%, 40% of your base to that, to that sort of stuff.
And again, most of this stuff was lies.
You know, a lot of this stuff was, yeah, that Morsi made mistakes, but they capitalized on, but a lot of this stuff was crazy lies like, oh, the Muslim Brotherhood is going to sell the Suez Canal to Qatar.
You know, Morsi is going to rent the pyramids, you know, rent the pyramids to rich Saudis, you know, just like crazy talk.
Crazy talk.
And people, and then you talk to average Egyptians, you talk to Egyptian taxi drivers and stuff about this stuff, and they repeat the same stuff to you.
These same ludicrous, ludicrous accusations with absolutely no basis in fact, I've been utterly discredited.
And yet you'd be amazed at how many people will actually buy into this stuff.
Maybe like you said, you can make the same case for Fox News and the American public.
I don't know.
People cannot underestimate the power of the media.
Yeah.
No, well, you know, it's one big empire.
And I think Egypt, Egyptian and American society reflect each other in a lot of ways, probably more ways than either side would like to admit.
But one quick point, I just want to make one of the saddest things about all of this that we're seeing now is real quick.
Sure, the whole bullshit war on terrorism thing that we were introduced to under Bush, the whole crazy, you know, war on terrorism thing, which was very much a neoconservative invention, is now here in Egypt is now in a Muslim country, you now have the same Islamophobia, the same talk of war on terror coming out of Egyptians, and they're, they're supporting it, they're buying into it, even though the Islamist, what is now the opposition has been entirely peaceful up until now.
And there's still talk about this looming war on terror and the popular mandate for taking the taking the battle to, you know, to the terrorists, which is, it's really, really depressing.
It's amazing to in a way how good they've gotten at doing this.
All right.
Hey, thanks so much, Adam.
Great to talk to you again.
Sure, Scott.
Everybody, that's Adam Morrow, IPS news.net.
And Nathan Fuller is going to be on the KPFK show tonight.
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