Hey y'all, Scott here.
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All right, you guys, introducing Greg Lovett.
He is the producer of this new documentary.
It's premiering in November.
It's called Delay, Deny, Hope You Die, How America Poisoned Its Soldiers.
And check the show notes for this interview and you can find the link to the main page there for the movie as well as this preview at vimeo.com.
You can also find it on my Twitter at Scott Horton Show.
Welcome to the show, how are you doing?
I'm doing fine, thanks for having me.
Sure, happy to have you here.
Well, so first of all, I can say this for the trailer, it sure looks like a very well done piece of work here, filmmaking that you guys have put together.
So I want people to feel confident that this is not some amateurish job even though it's an independent job.
It's a very professional piece of work here and featuring two of my heroes, the great Kelly B. Vallejos, who has written extensively about the burn pits and the wars for the American Conservative Magazine and for antiwar.com.
And then of course, Joseph Hickman, who is the great whistleblower from the Guantanamo Bay murders of 2006.
And then also wrote a book called The Burn Pits all about this crisis, which is mentioned in my book actually Fool's Errand.
I talk a little bit about it.
But this is such an important story.
So I guess just tell me everything, start, can you tell us a little bit about you and how you got interested in producing this, whose idea it was and how y'all put it together?
Sure.
I just stumbled upon this by accident.
I just happened to find Joe's book.
I read a lot of nonfiction.
That's just, you know, what I'm into and somehow on amazon.com, I think I just stumbled upon his book and it just seemed interesting to me.
I'd never heard about The Burn Pits.
So I thought, okay, you know, let's read it.
And as I read it, I just was, I mean, stupefied that something like this could happen.
I know it sounds a little bit naive because people have been doing this to people since the dawn of time, but it's just amazing to find out that people in power can abuse that power and treat people the way these soldiers have been treated.
And as I got deeper and deeper into the book and I found out that there's a, you know, there's a political connection too with Halliburton and Dick Cheney and there's a coverup involved.
I just thought, you know, somebody's got to make a documentary about this because there's, you know, a whole group of people that don't read.
So maybe there'd be a new audience that would be interested in this story.
But I didn't really do anything.
This was about two years ago.
I didn't really do anything about it because I thought somebody would do it already.
But as time went by, I just never heard anything about it.
So I was able to track down Joe Hickman, who, as you mentioned, wrote the book, because I figured anybody who would make a documentary would contact him first.
And he didn't know anything about a documentary.
Nobody had interviewed him outside of, you know, little bits here and there for local news.
So I said, well, I'm going to do it.
Now to complicate matters more, even though I'm American, I actually live in Holland.
So, you know, it was a logistical process that we had to go through to interview soldiers.
And, well, we interviewed Joe in Wisconsin.
And as you mentioned, Kelly in Washington.
We got Senator Tom Udall, who's also in Washington, doctors in New York and Tennessee, a lawyer in Houston.
So we got all these interviews all over the country.
And I came back to Holland, got an editor.
I found a guy in Nashville, Tennessee, actually to write the music.
So we have original music.
And we just finished it about two months ago.
It's actually gonna be premiering in October, actually in three days.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Where did I get that from?
Well, you talked to Kelly probably, and she's probably talking about Washington.
We are coming to Washington in November.
Oh, I see.
But the documentary is actually premiering this coming Monday in Los Angeles.
Okay, I'm sorry.
I just have the Monday, November 13th link in front of me here.
That's the date that we want to bring it to Washington.
Okay, well, anyway, so I'm sorry.
So for our West Coast people, listen up.
Sorry, say again now.
Actually, this coming Monday, the 9th of October, is gonna be the premiere in Los Angeles.
And it's almost sold out.
We have probably about 20 tickets left.
So people can still purchase tickets if they want.
And then on Wednesday and Thursday, I'll be in Phoenix and Tucson.
Wait, wait, wait, stick with LA for a second.
How do they get tickets to go and see it in LA?
The easiest way to get tickets is just to go to our Facebook page, which is facebook.com, obviously, slash burnpitsdocumentary, just one long word, burnpitsdocumentary.
So facebook.com/burnpitsdocumentary.
And right there, there's a big banner that says Buy Tickets.
And when you click on it, you'll see a list of all the cities that we're coming to.
Los Angeles will be first in that list because it's the one that's coming up.
And you just click on that and it will take you to a link and you can order tickets.
Great.
All right, and then you say Phoenix and then go on.
Yeah, next week we're also doing Phoenix and we're doing Tucson.
And then as I said, if you click on that banner there, you'll see a whole host of cities.
The way we're doing this is on a crowdfunding basis.
So contrary to what people normally do when they buy a movie, you know, they wake up on a Sunday morning and it's raining and they say, let's go to a movie.
We need to sell tickets in advance in order to confirm the screening.
So if people go to my Facebook page and they click on Buy Tickets, they'll see a whole list of cities for which we have options.
We have dates and we have cinemas, but we need people to buy tickets in advance.
So hopefully people will go, they'll click on it, they'll order their tickets now and that will help us confirm the screening.
So we have some confirmed screenings.
That's obviously LA, Phoenix, Tucson.
Those have been confirmed.
Tampa, Florida was just confirmed today on October 19th, October 18th in Columbus, Ohio.
So we have a bunch of screenings that are actually confirmed.
Cincinnati, Ohio at the beginning of November.
But we still have 15 or 20 cities, including Washington, that we need people to buy tickets for so that we can confirm those screenings so that we can really get the word out and create awareness about this really sad crisis that's going on.
Yeah.
Hey, listen, so for what it's worth, everybody in this audience, why not make this a special project?
You know, I don't know.
I try to get y'all to read everything that I interview people about here and that kind of deal.
But what about helping to really make this thing viral and get this powerful documentary out there where people actually know about it?
Because, you know, there's a million documentaries.
Documentaries are a dime a dozen.
How do you get one to stand out?
You gotta just get those retweets, right?
It's all about those shares and about somehow getting the narrative out there like it's a primetime TV show or whatever, that this is a thing that we all Americans care about.
We all feel that way about the same thing at the same time, like when a hurricane hits Puerto Rico or something, that this is a thing that matters.
This is a thing that we all care about this month.
You know, the burn pits.
Did you hear about the burn pits?
The burn pits.
There's this new movie out about the burn pits.
Because if that doesn't happen, then it's just another thing, right?
So how do we make it not just another thing?
We all do the work at the same time and trying to make it really go viral.
And, you know, again, I know just, at least from the trailer, that absolutely this is gonna be worth our time and effort to do so without having seen the whole thing here.
Yeah, sorry, but I think when people see it, I think they'll be as shocked as I was because most people don't know anything about it.
Obviously, a lot of military people know about it because when they were overseas, I think there was something like 250 burn pits on military bases in Iraq and Afghanistan.
So if you served overseas, you're familiar with the burn pit.
But most, you know, I was gonna say normal people, but let's say, you know, normal citizens don't know anything about this.
And I think when they see the story, they're gonna be shocked that this was allowed to happen.
They're gonna be shocked that, well, estimates put 100,006 soldiers.
They're gonna be shocked that there was a coverup because the military knew as far back as 2006 that burning all this garbage was poisonous and they didn't do anything about it.
They're gonna be shocked to find out that Halliburton, who was responsible for managing some of these burn pits, got in a demonification from Dick Cheney, the former vice president, because he used to work at Halliburton.
So even if somehow Halliburton and their subsidiaries are found liable, they don't have to pay anything.
The taxpayers are gonna pay.
I mean, it's one of those typical stories where you just, you can't believe what's happening and it's happening again.
All right, hang on just one second.
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And now, listen, I'm sorry, because I sort of have assumed for the sake of this interview that everybody listening has already heard a hundred Kelly Vlahos interviews about this subject before and that kind of thing, but that's not necessarily true.
And I think, you know, it's pretty easy for anybody to just, once you hear the term burn pit, you go, oh, okay, I get it.
That makes sense.
They threw away everything in a careless manner sort of a thing.
But maybe I'll actually give you a chance to talk a little bit about what this means in practice.
Well, what happened was at the beginning of the Iraqi and Afghanistan invasion, the military didn't really think very well about what they were gonna do with garbage.
And I know that that sounds simple, but the fact is that estimates say that each soldier serving on the battlefield produces about 10 pounds of garbage per day.
Now that garbage has to go somewhere.
When you have bases with 20 or 30 or 40,000 people on it, that is an awful lot of garbage that's produced every day.
So they didn't know what to do with it.
So they came up with the idea to burn it.
You know, remember the olden days when you were, I remember going to the dump when I was a kid in America.
Well, those have been outlawed in the US, but apparently not on military bases.
So they literally took everything from plastic water bottles, rubber, old tires, old computers, metals, spent ammunition, medical waste, human waste even, amputated body parts, dead animals, old trucks.
I mean, you name it, literally everything that they had to get rid of was disposed of in these big pits.
Some of them were the size of multiple football fields.
And then they would set it on fire with jet fuel.
And they would burn sometimes 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
Now, jet fuel itself releases benzene, which is a carcinogen.
So if that wasn't bad enough, all the things that they're burning, the plastics and the rubbers and the metals, obviously also are releasing toxins into the air.
And soldiers in a documentary talk about how the ash would fall on them constantly.
You'd have to dust yourself off.
It was just a constant thing that happened.
In Iraq, people started to get sick, cough and nasal problems, and they came up with a new quote unquote disease.
They called it the Iraqi Krud.
You're gonna get sick when you go there.
That's the first thing soldiers were told when they went overseas, expect it.
And you're gonna suffer from the Iraqi Krud.
And everybody got sick.
And everybody was in sick hall for a while.
One soldier even talked about how it affected the airplanes.
They had to keep the airplanes clean.
We just fall on them like rain constantly.
Well, a lot of people were sick when they were there.
But what happens is that a lot of the diseases that these soldiers are getting, they don't manifest themselves in a week or a month or even a year.
So they come back home.
And over a period of time, they start to develop diseases.
If you have metal deposited in your lungs, you're gonna get disease over time.
And so doctors started noticing that soldiers were coming back and they were supposed to be healthy.
They went overseas healthy.
They were gone a year or two.
They would come back and they weren't healthy anymore.
A lot of them had breathing issues.
And through lung biopsies, they found out that they had some of them, many of them had these rare incurable lung diseases.
Then you had another group of people as years went by that started to develop rare forms of cancer.
And a lot of the military doctors, because they've been out of service for a year, they would say, well, your illness is not service related.
So then they have to get into another battle besides fighting their illness, another battle with the VA to get compensation, to get the healthcare that they need, to get the medicine.
They would go to a private doctor and the private doctor would say, I don't know what's going on with you, but you're suffering from toxic exposure of some kind.
But then the military would deny that it was from the service.
And so they get this huge run around and they have a separate battle that they're fighting at the same time.
And it's been going on now for 10 years.
And the thing, like I said, I have a memo that shows that they knew about this as far back as 2006.
One of their own people who was responsible for environmental safety wrote a memo and said this is the worst environmental site I've ever seen, and it's gonna cause health injuries to the soldiers.
And they just buried that memo.
And then you have, so those were on burn pits that the military was running.
And then you had burn pits that Halliburton was running through their subsidiary, KBR.
I've seen contracts that they were supposed to manage these according to EPA regulations.
They were supposed to treat these bases like it was a little piece of America.
Well, they obviously didn't because they were burning all kinds of things that were illegal.
And as I said, now there's a lawsuit pending that even if they lose, the taxpayer are gonna pay because KBR has an indemnification.
So it just, I mean, it just goes on and on.
Joe Biden would be the president right now.
Except for the fact that he didn't run because he was still in mourning for his son who died of brain cancer from his deployment in Iraq right adjacent to a burn pit was where he spent his days on that base.
That's right.
There's a lot of circumstantial evidence that points to the fact that his death may have been caused by the burn pits.
He suffered from the same kind of brain cancer that a lot of his colleagues are suffering from.
Um, listen, I think this is such important work.
And I really hope that you have great success with this film.
And I think, you know, it was mentioned in my, in our early email communication here that it's basically too judgmental and too hardcore to be embraced by the veterans groups at this point.
Is that right?
Can you tell me a bit about that?
Well, I thought that one way, you know, as I mentioned, we need to get people to go out and order tickets in advance so we could bring this to the cinema.
So I thought, well, there's a lot of veterans organizations out there who are supposed to have the interest of the veterans in mind, like the VFW.
So I thought, well, if I go to the VFW, you know, they don't have to sponsor it necessarily, but they could help me sort of reach their members.
You know, I think they have three or 4 million members or something like that.
So I sent it to them.
I took a, I asked them to take a look and they wrote back to me and said it was too political.
And then I wrote back and I said, I don't really understand what you mean because aren't you supposed to be looking out for the best interest of the veterans and not really get involved in politics.
And you're kind of, this is a kind of censorship.
If you're deciding what the veterans can and can't see, you're not letting them make a decision for themselves.
And I never got a response to that, but they decided that they didn't want to touch it.
And I've reached out to other veterans organizations too.
And so far, nobody has wanted to get involved, I guess, because they have to still play that political game.
They need funding, they need friends.
And so they have to still pick and choose the kinds of information they disseminate among the veterans.
Well, you got a pretty inflammatory title there and I know you must stand by it and you must have your reason.
Is that something that's really covered in the documentary, Hope You Die, where the bureaucrats are basically caught red handed, preferring the men just lay down dead rather than continue to be a pain in their neck?
That's right.
I got a quote from one of the soldiers who's in the documentary.
And he's talking about how basically everybody is getting the runaround from the VA and the military.
And that, as you mentioned, with some of these other diseases in the past, Agent Orange, for example, they're afraid that the government is just gonna delay and deny and wait for them to die and then they won't get the help that they need at all.
Because that's what's happening.
I mean, it's hard to even make an appointment at the VA.
It's hard to get the treatment at the VA.
It's hard to get the medicine that you need.
And a lot of people are just afraid that it's just gonna just blow away because at the end, the people that are suffering won't be helped.
And maybe the families in the future sometime, but nobody has really a lot of faith in that.
Yeah.
Now, see, to some people, that just sounds like some insane accusation.
Like, what are you saying?
That all the people that run the VA are pure evil and live only to F over our soldiers?
But that's not it, right?
It's a matter of their incentives at work.
What their actual job is as defined inside the bureaucracy of what they're supposed to do and what they're supposed to be careful to not do.
And it's not mean, that's the whole thing.
It's not personal at all, except to the victims.
But to the people, remember like they had this scandal where the very nice ladies that ran the place had a drawer where they put all the extra people that they didn't have time to schedule and they just put all them in this drawer and then they just died and they just never got care and they never got appointments, they never got nothing.
And it was like, you know, anyway, you get it.
That's the kind of thing they talk about.
They call and they try to make appointments.
And, you know, even if you give them the benefit of the doubt and you just say, well, they're just overworked.
Oh, okay.
But sometimes appointments are literally delayed months and months and months.
Meanwhile, you have cancer.
You can't wait months and months.
You have bills that need to be paid.
You go to a private doctor because you need to get help and you're not reimbursed.
One of the men in the documentary is $250,000 in debt.
He had to declare bankruptcy because he couldn't wait to be treated by the VA who was not acknowledging that his cancer, he has two types of cancer actually, were caused by the burn pits.
So he had to go to a private doctor.
Well, he can't afford a private doctor.
So now he's declared bankruptcy.
So, I mean, these are real world examples.
It's not just people complaining.
It's just people talking about their real experience.
And I do hear a lot that they're just overworked.
They're uninformed.
A lot of the VA doctors have never heard the burn pits apparently.
So when some of these soldiers go in and they say, look, my buddy got sick and served near the burn pits and I served there.
Could my illness be related to the burn pits?
They just get a blank stare.
What are the burn pits?
So there's ignorance involved.
There's just a lot of logistic issues involved.
But the bottom line is they're not getting the treatment that they need.
Man.
Yeah, you know what?
It's one of those stories that the implications are that somebody didn't do a good enough job.
So that's just that much more incentive baked into the cake to keep not doing a good job.
So you don't have to admit that you weren't doing a good job before kind of thing.
That's how it is with these government bureaucracies.
There's no, it's not like competition where you just go to the competing VA that gets to win the advantage in the marketplace by doing a good job on this.
They just, it just stays bad.
It's terrible.
And look, I mean, this 2017, we're still arguing about whether this thing exists or not.
Well, these guys are dropping dead.
Yeah.
And again, it's just Gulf War II illness.
Just like anybody who had paid attention in the 90s knew that there was a Gulf War illness.
I mean, doesn't that mean that there's 100% chance there's gonna be Gulf War II illness when they go back to war in the same place again?
Hey, you know, Kelly Vlahos has pointed out too, and I don't know if this made your documentary or not, but she said a lot of times on this show that part of this is just a generation of artillery pounding the soil over there.
That there's heavy metals that are deep down in the soil or even, okay, a couple inches down in the soil, but mostly they stay there until you have a generation of artillery just pounding and pounding and pounding on the ground out there in the desert and pushing all this stuff up into the air where the wind takes it and puts it right into human systems.
And of course, our troops come and go, but the Iraqis, they gotta still live there.
The Afghans gotta still live there.
And of course, they're suffering all these same cancers and all this everything, and it's their civilian population.
You know, at least technically speaking, our guys sign up to be combatants and take big risks to go fight in this thing.
But these are just the men, women, and children of Afghanistan and of Iraq who are suffering these exact same effects, of course.
Yeah, I didn't even get into that in the documentary, but sort of off the record or off camera, I talked to several people about it, and the cancer rate has skyrocketed among the Iraqi and Afghani population.
But one of the things that Joe Hickman talks about in the documentary is that most of these illnesses are coming from five bases.
There was about 250 bases, and soldiers are getting sick everywhere.
But the majority of the sicknesses are coming from five bases in Iraq, and those just happen to be ex-storage facilities for Saddam Hussein's chemical weapons.
And the military didn't do any kind of dirt samples.
They just built the burn pit, as you mentioned, on top of this ground that was already contaminated.
He says that he was told by KBR when they were putting in a burn pit, he was told by people that they knew the ground was hot.
They knew it was contaminated, but they put the burn pits in anyway.
So now you're just throwing up all the crap that's in the soil already into the air, and they're breathing it.
And as you said, our soldiers now are gone.
Okay, they're still ill, yes.
But there's a whole generation of children that are now being born in Iraq and Afghanistan with rare forms of cancer.
And I mean, who's taking care of them?
Nobody, of course.
They have no hope at all.
Yeah.
One guy says in the documentary, if they would just admit it, that's really all these soldiers want, is acknowledgement and recognition.
He said, if they just said to us, look, we screwed up, we made a mistake, we're gonna fix it.
Okay, great.
Right, and as you said, it's not their money anyway, right?
What do they care?
All they have to do is lose a little face to connect these people directly to the Treasury.
That ought to be fine.
By the way, I have to say, just technically speaking, for anybody whose ears had popped up there, and I hadn't seen your documentary yet, I don't know exactly how you treat this, but any chemical weapons that were there in Iraq in 2003 at the time of the invasion or after that were already declared and admitted to by the Iraqis and fessed up to the UN.
They had just decided, well, we'll just leave them buried out here in the desert.
Saddam's keeping watch on them and nobody's doing anything with them.
It'd be more dangerous to transport them.
This has been the New York Times, et cetera.
And people always invoke this and say, aha, see, chemical weapons.
But no, these are those that Ronald Reagan and NATO allies sold to Saddam Hussein in the 1980s and had absolutely nothing to do with ratifying or proving Bush's claims about any active programs of any kind in Iraq in 2003.
Saddam had closed down all of that stuff in 1991 after the end of the first Gulf War.
But anyway, just since you mentioned that, I wanted to mention that, yes, there were some chemical weapons there, but none of that proves that any claim, not a single claim of George W. Bush's from 02 or 03 ended up being true on that same question.
That's correct.
Anyway.
That's a whole other story.
It is another story, but I just wanted, since you brought up the chemical weapons there, I didn't want it to sound like, oh, it was a concession of these guys' lies, you know?
Oh, no.
I meant that they were old weapons facilities or long since disused, but were still in the ground.
Yeah, and had all been declared and none were being kept from the international so-called community whatsoever.
All right, anyway, listen, this is such great work that you're doing.
I appreciate your time on the show.
I hope everyone in L.A., tell me again about the times.
Wait, everybody first, just facebook.com/burnpitsdocumentary.
And then tell us again off the top of your head here, the times for L.A. and for Washington, D.C. again.
Yeah, L.A. is this coming Monday, the 9th.
Washington itself is on the 13th.
If we could sell tickets in advance, it's a really important issue that I need to make clear to people, is you can't wait and decide, oh, I think I'll go to the movie on the 13th, because then it won't be playing.
You have to, if you're interested at all, you have to go to the Facebook page, click on the banners as buy tickets, and then buy a ticket for the city that you're interested in because that's the only way we'll get the documentary to your city.
And I would also mention that you don't have to go and you can buy a ticket and you can give it away.
They're just email tickets.
So maybe you don't live in that city, but you wanna buy a ticket for somebody you know in a different city.
Just go and buy the ticket and then email it to them.
But it'd be great if we could sell out these 20 tickets.
That's the only way we're gonna get recognition and awareness for these soldiers.
Yeah, you know what, man?
You need to get yourself or somebody to make it a point to really call the producers of right-wing radio shows on AM radio and pitch it as a conservative issue, even at the expense of the left.
Screw them anyway.
Just go ahead and say, listen, those liberals don't care about what happens to the soldiers, but we need good patriotic American Rush Limbaugh clones like yourself to promote this issue because somebody's gotta care about these guys.
And you know what?
I don't mean to be that cynical about it.
Right-wing talk radio hosts do care about soldiers and do care about what happens to them.
And yet I think they probably fit right in that category of never heard of it before, as you said.
And so that's who you've gotta, you gotta attack the right from the right.
Who supports these wars?
It's not the left overall.
I mean, DC liberals do, but the left half of American politics overall is pretty much anti-war.
It's the right-wing patriots who support our troops and support the mission and support the wars.
They need to be shown that this is what our government thinks of our enlisted men, okay?
This is the reality of the situation.
The same Nixonians who betrayed them back then are betraying them now.
And so how could you trust, just like how could you trust Barack Obama to send your boys to war in Syria?
Hell no to that.
Well, same thing with all of them.
You know what?
The generals are all a bunch of Obamas, apparently.
So why would you trust these men with your sons?
And that's, to me, is the key to actually making the change, right?
Is undermining the support where it is.
You don't have to convince left-wing university students to be against the war.
Not that they care much about it, but at least they're not biased toward it.
You know what I mean?
It's those biased toward it that need to be shown this.
And those biased toward the wars are the ones most likely to care about this after all, because they do conflate supporting the troops with supporting the insane missions that the civilians send them on.
So, you know, that's my take.
But anyway, I wish you the best of luck with this.
I just think it's the most important thing.
Appreciate it.
All right, well, everybody, that is Greg Lovett.
And again, you can find him.
And thank you again for your time.
Appreciate it.
That's Greg Lovett, and check him out on Facebook.
It's facebook.com/burnpitsdocumentary.
Actually, Greg, are you still there?
I'm sorry.
Is it your wife or Leanne Lovett that's your partner on this?
That's actually my daughter.
She's helping me.
Oh, your daughter, okay.
Yeah, I was wondering.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to assume.
She's helping me with the promotion and marketing on some of these films.
Okay, great.
So yeah, I saw her name on one of these websites.
It's tug, T-U-G-G, tug.com/titles slash burnpits.
That's not too hard, right, guys?
Tug, two Gs, .com/titles slash burnpits.
And if you check out my Twitter feed or check out the show notes for this interview, you'll find the link for this seven minute long preview of Delay, Deny, Hope You Die, How America Poisoned Its Soldiers.
Thank you again.
Appreciate it, Greg.
Thank you.
All right, guys.
Hey, why not do your part to help pass with this one around, huh?
Thanks.
All right, guys, Scott Horton Show.
Check out the archives at scotthorton.org.
Now check out the book foolserend.us, Fool's Errand Time to End the War in Afghanistan.
That's my book.
And follow me on Twitter at Scott Horton Show.
Check out my institute at libertarianinstitute.org and all my readings for you there in the viewpoint section at antiwar.com.
Thanks, guys.
