All right, y'all, welcome back to the show.
It's anti-war radio.
I'm Scott Horton and our first guest on the show today is William J.
Astori.
He is a retired Lieutenant Colonel from the U.S.
Air Force and a Tom dispatch regular.
And, uh, I think this is you, right?
William, author of Hindenburg, icon of German militarism.
Yes, that is me.
A few years ago.
Oh, that's interesting.
Um, I had to read more history, you know, it's hard to keep up with all I got to read.
All right.
Well, uh, I hope everybody reads this one.
So Tom dispatch right now, it'll definitely be, well, 99% chance.
I guess it'll be on anti-war.com under Tom Englehart's name tomorrow.
Uh, fighting 1% wars while wars of choice may prove fatal.
Um, and it has a little introduction by, uh, Nick Turse here and, uh, you're talking about, uh, drones, but also just the nature of, uh, what you call wars of choice and the effect they have on the structure of the military and the way the wars are fought and what that means for the future of American society.
It's all very interesting.
So go right ahead.
Tell us what you're thinking here.
Well, yeah, thanks.
Thanks again for having me, Scott.
Yeah.
When you stop and think of our wars, as I started off the piece, uh, you know, I, I make a distinction between wars of necessity versus wars of choice.
And I think when we look at our wars over the last 30 or 40 years, we have to say that most, if not all of them have been wars that the United States have not been forced to fight, that they've been wars that we've, that we've, uh, selected.
We've, we've chosen the fight.
Uh, and as a result, part of the reason why we as a country do this is because the wars are so remote from us.
You know, Vietnam was obviously very remote from us geographically.
Although many more people were involved in Vietnam because of the draft.
I mean, nowadays wars are remote from us.
They're remote from us geographically.
They're remote from our populace because only our all volunteer military fights them.
I mean, they're just, in a way they are out of sight, out of mind.
We don't even think about whether or not they're right or wrong because we don't think about them at all.
Right.
Well, and that's, what's funny to me is, you know, cause foreign policy has been my issue for so long that it's hard for me to gauge when other people are paying attention when they're not.
And of course, you know, right after September 11th, and then at least through the first year or so of the Iraq war, people were really engaged and it was all the biggest story and the most important thing.
And it seems to me that if your government is killing people in large numbers, that's always the most important story.
And yet really it's just not out there in the real world.
People just don't even care at all.
Well, right.
I mean, what, what struck me and one of the, one of the experience, I teach, I teach history in Pennsylvania and I talk to my students and I'll ask them, you know, did you see on the news last night that, uh, you know, that such and such happened and how are you following, uh, events in Afghanistan?
And they'll basically tell me, well, well, no, we're not.
Uh, but as Nick Turse mentioned in his introduction to my piece, you know, they're spending a lot of time lining up to, you know, to play virtual war, you know, to, to, to get top call of duty or, you know, these other war games.
So, so they're involved in war in a sort of, uh, virtual way, uh, with their computers and on television and video games, but they're not following our real wars.
And, and that's partly because, you know, they can get away with that.
Uh, you know, there's, there's no draft, obviously.
Uh, a lot of them as, as a recent Pew study indicated only about one third of, of, of, uh, 18 to 29 year olds, you don't know anyone in the military have any kind of close friends or family in the military.
So it's very easy for our young people, uh, to divorce themselves from what their country is doing.
Uh, and that's a, that's a scary thought.
As you said, when we don't take them into account, uh, what our military is doing overseas and, and the cost we're paying here at home as well.
Well, now, as far as the video games go on one hand, I kind of like the idea of, well, let them just play war and get it out of their system.
You know, everybody's got to play the cop and the robber sometimes, uh, just to, you know, when they're little kids anyway, to get their heads around what those roles are and where the lines are and stuff.
On the other hand though, even though they're not going, it really is normalizing the permanent state of war in a way where it just kind of helps reinforce that consensus that this is just the way things are.
America's at war all the time, even if it is far away and out of sight, out of mind.
Right.
And of course, in a game, if you screw up, you always just reboot the game.
You know, if you, if you, if you, uh, you know, kill civilians instead of the bad guy, uh, you just start, start the game over in real life.
Of course, you can't do that.
It, what you see on these video games is, is an antiseptic version.
Uh, and it's, it's also sort of, as you said, it's, it's, it's normalizing.
It's making war into a game and you know, war should never be a game.
Well, now, um, part of this now, you mentioned the draft there a couple of times, and this is something that, you know, I grew up hearing that when they changed the rules of the draft, uh, during Vietnam, where now, you know, being white and in college and, uh, even married wasn't necessarily enough to get you out of the war, uh, that that's what finally brought people out into the streets and ended the war.
But by my count, that was seven years later.
It took, and really, as far as ends, justifying means and things like that.
I mean, we're talking about slavery and forcing people who obviously have not voluntarily chosen to participate in the war to do so, to kill people, to get killed or, you know, to help in those projects.
And so it, you know, it seems to me that the draft is unmitigated evil, uh, in spite of, you know, obviously I understand, uh, the point that when there is a draft and the military is much larger, then that means that the military reflects the society, you know, and back and forth more and that they're being, they're kind of a marginalized part of our society.
And in some way, uh, in that, uh, we all know fewer and fewer of them and have less and less in common with them as the war goes on, but I don't, you're not calling for a draft, right?
You're just kind of pointing out one of these, one of the effects of not having one, do I understand that right?
Yeah, you do, Scott.
I'm not calling for a draft.
What I'm calling for is an end of fighting these wars of choice.
Yeah, that's what I'm calling for.
Uh, but you know, there are many who say that that won't happen until there is a draft until rich white Republican lady has to give up her Johnny to go find this thing she's been screaming for all this time.
And then her tune will change.
Well, no, I don't think that's necessarily the case.
Uh, in fact, I think even, you know, even if we brought back a draft, I think our government would still be able to, uh, or, you know, our government and, and, and other powers that be would be able to spin it in such a way that it would be a patriotic duty.
What, what I, what I think is as a country, we just, we just need to be far more discerning about what, you know, about what, uh, what's worth fighting for.
Uh, and right now, I mean, one of the points I made in my article was that, you know, ask a person, why are, why are we in Afghanistan, for example?
Uh, you won't get a clear, concise answer.
Like in world war two, you know, you ask people in world war two, well, you know, we need to end fascist.
We needed to, we need to destroy Nazi Germany.
We need to, to, to, to get rid of Adolf Hitler.
Uh, we need to end Japanese militarism and the rape of Nanking and all the other crimes of, of, of Japanese militarism.
You don't get that today.
The narrative is so muddled people, you know, Americans would be like, well, I, I think we're nation building.
Nope.
Wait a minute.
It's a war against terror.
Oh, no.
Uh, I heard it something about the Taliban.
No, it's, you know, you come up with, Oh no, it's all about oil or other resources.
I think the very fact that the, the, the reason why we're fighting is so unclear in people's mind is an indicator.
I think that we're fighting a war of choice and if it is a war of choice, we can choose not to fight.
Right.
And you would think that, I mean, I don't know, maybe you wouldn't think.
I would think that that would be the default that, that you only choose war if you absolutely have to.
It's something that, uh, I don't hear, you know, reflected certainly by the political class at all, the idea that, you know, this 1% of the volunteer army that we wouldn't risk their lives unless we really needed to do what we're doing.
In fact, maybe a little bit of that, um, kind of a guilt is behind the policy of just ramping up the droid wars and the skies over these countries fought from, uh, you know, safe back home in Nevada.
Um, because they really can't say it's worth it with a straight face to actually put an American's life at risk.
But anyway, I'm sorry.
Uh, we'll have to pick that up on the other side of this break.
It's William J.
Astori.
Uh, he's writing for Tom dispatch.com.
We'll be right back.
All right, y'all.
Welcome back to the show.
It's anti-war radio.
I'm Scott Horton.
I'm talking with William J.
Astori, formerly of the U S air force.
Now of Tom dispatch.com.
And, uh, you talk about the, uh, the drone wars, uh, is part of your article here, the 1% wars, the 1% that is the U S military, um, in this country.
Um, that, uh, the rest of us are more and more, uh, separate from as you write, but, uh, the drone wars makes the soldiers even separate from the wars that they're fighting.
And now they even have commercials on TV where they show the, the, um, air force, uh, cadets or whatever, sitting in their comfortable, lazy boy chairs in their air conditioned trailer, playing video games.
And of course, heroically killing people.
Actually, of course, I guess the frame of the, of the, uh, commercial is they're helping keep soldiers on the ground out of harm's way or something heroic like that, of course, but they're, you know, basically pitching, uh, on TV here, you can, you too can sit in a lazy boy chair and fight America's wars, win yourself some stars.
Yes.
Yes.
I've, uh, I've seen that commercial.
It's, it's a little embarrassing.
Uh, well, but it, but it points to, as you say, there's a couple of ways, you know, as you know, I wanted to point out the remoteness of our wars.
One of those ways is exactly what you just said.
I mean, some, some Americans are, are basically, uh, deploying weapons hundreds, if not thousands of miles away from the front lines.
So there's definitely a remoteness there.
Uh, but there's also the remoteness I want to talk about is, is the way that the, you know, that, that the troops, our troops, uh, our active duty military is, is becoming more remote from our society.
And I'm glad I'm not the only one saying this because, uh, you know, retired admiral, uh, Mike Mullen, who just retired as chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, you know, he said in the time magazine piece last month, that, that, uh, the military is growing more estranged from wider society.
And if we allow that to happen, if we allow a break like that, a total break to happen, you know, then, then we have a very serious problem, uh, in our country.
Uh, and I, and I think that's probably the most, uh, worrying point.
You know, I wrote, I wrote for Tom dispatch almost three years ago.
I wrote a piece about how the American military was becoming a foreign region.
Uh, and maybe I talked to you about this, Scott, probably back then.
Yeah, I think so.
And, and I was, I was nervous about saying that because, you know, I, I feel connected to the military.
I was in the military for 20 years, but yet, you know, the way the military was being constantly deployed, uh, to remote locations on missions that seemed detached from, from the day-to-day concerns of Americans, that to me, it was, it was seemed like we're becoming like the French foreign legion.
Uh, and then I saw it, you know, Admiral Mullen, uh, say the same thing in time magazine, uh, last month where he said, we're becoming like a foreign legion, uh, and to have the chairman of the joint chief of staff, you know, former chairman say that is a warning.
Uh, and it's funny how these guys only start saying these things, though, after they retire, I wish they'd speak up more, you know, before they retired.
Yeah.
Well now what exactly is the danger that you're referring to that they will see themselves as so separate from the civilians and for example, perhaps the civilian government that they'll just cross the river and take over the country or what?
Well, probably not a seven days in May scenario, you know, where the military tries to take over, uh, but, but more of a case where, you know, that the, the Uh, but, but more of a case where, you know, that the, the, the military just feels, uh, detached from society.
And, and, and as a result, uh, you know, it, it leads to a dissension within society.
It leads to disruptions.
It leads to grievances and grudges and misunderstandings.
And I think more than anything, I'm worried about not so much the military being detached from society, although that's important, but, but the rest of us, you know, being separated from the military, you know, being ambivalent or, or not caring, uh, and when we don't care, well, then that allows the military to be used, uh, you know, for, for purposes contrary to our best national interests.
You know, if our military becomes more and more detached from society, we won't notice, uh, that's the danger.
I think we won't notice, uh, that it's being used in ways that are contrary to our ideals and even contrary to our national security.
Well, you know, one thing that I worry about is how, uh, more and more of these veterans come home to find, uh, recruitment, uh, literature in their mailbox from the local police department that says, you know, you've, you've, uh, practiced your clear whole build strategy on the Afghans now come and apply it in Travis County, that kind of thing.
And, um, you know, so first of all, you have going from one mission to what's supposed to be an entirely different mission.
But then as you're talking about, you sort of have this separation, this alienation from American society that makes, you know, suspects, uh, that easier to conceive of as enemies.
And, and, uh, makes it that much harder, you know, it makes it that much easier to see Americans as Iraqis while they're out on patrol.
You know, there was a case here in Austin where some guy supposedly burgled something and the cops went chasing him through the parking lot.
And the one cop just pulled out his gun and just started shooting in this parking lot.
And he said later, he sort of had a flashback to Iraq and all this, uh, one of his bullets went through the back of the minivan and into the child's car seat.
Luckily she was inside shopping with her mom.
And this is in, and, uh, you know, he just said, well, this is how we do it in Iraq.
You know, we, we fire wildly into crowds sometimes, you know?
And so he just kind of snapped back to his, uh, previous way of looking at things.
And, and the people of East Austin are basically the people of, uh, West Baghdad, you know?
Sure.
Yeah.
No, I, I hear what you're saying.
Hey, I'm, I'm concerned too.
I know I am concerned about the militarization of a police force because you know, our police force is supposed to be here to serve and protect the people and the police force, you know, he used to be, used to be, you know, police were, were maybe unarmed or, or carrying 38 revolvers.
You know, now, of course, you know, today they, they have flak vests, they've got automatic weapons, they've got riot gear, uh, and you know, maybe, you know, that kind of militarization is rarely necessary.
Uh, and, and it is, it is, I mean, the way to tackle that, uh, I mean, really military coming back, as you know, the military are having trouble, uh, finding jobs, you know, after they separate from the military.
So you can't, you certainly can't blame, you know, a, a soldier for being interested in the police department or the fire department or homeland security.
I mean, it might be one of the few jobs that, that is open, uh, and, uh, you know, where they can use some of their experience.
Right.
Cause all the money was taken out of the rest of the economy to pay for the war that they just went to fight and train in.
Exactly.
I mean, there's simply more opportunities and things like, you know, homeland security or maybe the local police force.
Exactly.
I guess that's why they call it the slippery slope or the dirty snowball rolling downhills.
Each problem creates more of itself, more of the same.
Right, right.
Um, now, you know, another thing about this is, uh, it seems like maybe to the political leaders, even to Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama and people like that up there, um, these wars are that distant and that remote.
And I'm thinking of this clip I saw of Noam Chomsky telling his shocked interviewer that Obama's worse than Bush.
For example, look at what he's doing to Pakistan.
He is, we are on the verge here of tearing this country apart.
This thing that the military barely holds together in the first place.
And for what?
And it's madness and it's madness.
It seems like part of it is based on the idea that, you know, like, um, the Doug Fyfe view of the world.
Hey, we have the US military.
We can do whatever we want.
We can, uh, create our own reality and whatever it is we do in Pakistan, the consequences will be just as we predict and just as we hope for and whatever they just, it be.
And perhaps cause they're looking through the lens of a, of a drone site to throw a soda straws as Robert Gates called it.
Right.
Well, it's hubris, you know, it's, it's, it's a classic case of, of, you know, way too much, uh, way too much confidence, way too much pride.
And this idea that, that war is something that can be controlled.
You know, I, I think that's really something, you know, we still haven't learned from history that, that war is the most chaotic event, uh, that, that maybe humans can, can practice.
It's extremely unpredictable.
Whenever you use violent force, uh, I mean, you know, Charles Johnson wrote all about blowback, uh, the unpredictability of what you unleash.
Uh, and that seems to be something that we're still not learning.
And we still have this idea of surgical strikes.
And that's something that is only being reinforced by all of the new technology of the drones and the, you know, precision GPS guided weaponry, uh, and all of this.
Uh, it's, it's an illusion and it's an illusion that, that is going to come back and, and, uh, you know, it's an illusion that's going to create a reality.
I think that we're not comfortable with.
Yeah.
Well, um, a New York, uh, Times Square bomber said that, uh, he went on vacation home to Pakistan, saw the effect of a drone strike, joined up the army on the other side.
And luckily his bomb fizzled, but it didn't have to.
Right.
So yeah, you're certainly right about that.
All right.
Well, we're all out of time, but I thank you very much for your time.
It's been good.
Thank you, Scott.
Everybody.
That's William J Astori.
He's a retired Lieutenant Colonel in the U S air force.
And he writes for Tom dispatch.com.
