Welcome back to the show.
It is anti-war radio our first guest on the show today is Ron Kukal he was the chaplain or a chaplain at least on the USS Liberty a US Navy ship attacked by the Israelis by the Israeli Air Force back in 1967 during the 67 war welcome to show Ron.
How are you doing?
I'm doing fine It must be afternoon there, isn't it by now?
Almost I'm in Texas I'm in Texas.
The network is on the East Coast.
So it's afternoon there, but you're in Wyoming, right?
I'm in Wyoming.
So it's a good morning here.
Good afternoon to the rest of you.
Yeah What can I do for you Scott?
Well, I was just hoping I could give you a chance to tell your story of you know from From your own perspective of what happened.
It's the kind of thing where I think a lot of people can grow even a middle-aged or something without having ever even heard of the attack on the USS Liberty It's not like it's really a secret or anything, but it's also just hardly ever discussed You know except for people like me with a bone to pick and I don't know if you do or not being a chaplain and all but Certainly it's I think an underexposed but very important piece of American history And so I was just hoping the audience would have a chance to learn something about it from you today.
That's all Yeah, I'm glad to Most of the shows I go on to run about an hour So I'll try to condense it as best I possibly can.
I make one thing very clear.
I Was not a chaplain aboard USS Liberty.
I was the lay chaplain for the Liberty Veterans Association I like to make that abundantly clear.
I'm That Yeah, it's okay.
It's all right.
It seems like everybody kind of gets that impression and that's fine I was on a couple of interviews yesterday and the statements were exactly the same.
So it's no problem June 8th 1967 1300 what showed his military time would be one o'clock in the afternoon Maybe two or three minutes after 1300 I was going back down from the main deck to my working space, which is to let two decks down below the main deck As I sat down at my desk I heard a loud noise on the main deck up above the only way I've ever been able to describe that noise for people that haven't heard it that if they've ever been in a hailstorm and Maybe was under a tin roof.
That's about as close as I can come to it that's exactly what it sounded like what it was was the strafing the first strafing run of the Israeli jets that were strafing that were going to stray for the Liberty I think about the first run they killed four or five guys Then there was a null for a while while they made their circle around and scraped it for an aft once more twice more three more times and All of they killed ten men ten Navy men ten honorable Navy men aboard on the main deck of the ship My work in space was two decks down below the main deck as I think I already mentioned I was about 30 foot.
Maybe a little bit less from the torpedo when it exploded When that happened it was shortly after the the jet planes attacked us the captain come over the one in the sea which is the ship's intercom and Literally said that we were going to be attacked by torpedo boats and After he said that and after the attack was over I found out they fired a spread of five torpedoes at us missed us with four and hit us with one Lousy shot, right?
Thank goodness for that.
I Don't usually say it I usually wait for somebody else to say and it's never failed But anyway, the the torpedo is supposed to have went amid ships where it could have done the most damage but instead it Penetrated and hit an I-beam and only blew a 40 by 40 foot hole on the starboard side of the ship Which put us at about a 10 degree list after that happened.
So after the torpedo hit And I must tell everybody that really I never heard the explosion what I've what I noticed Immediately was that my compartment was filling with water and I knew I better head Out of there to the deck up above the only way I found my way Was a battle lantern it was so dark in there if you've ever been in a cave and they've turned the day the lights out That's dark where you can't even see your finger but that battle lantern did come on right after the hit and it showed me showed me to the patch into the passageway and to the ladder up above to the deck up above and There were several of us men that were still alive that were scrambling towards that ladder And I think we were crawling over each other try to get out Top top side there or on the deck above was a was a third class Ship fitter Second class I believe he was who had the the clearance of mind the clearness of mind To open the scuttle on the hatch, which is a tiny hole Not a tiny hole was big enough for a man to crawl out of To let each and every one of us out opening the main hatch could have caused us to sink and he was right on it and So we got out one at a time and as I headed towards the main deck Slipping and sliding in the water and the blood because it was everywhere Before I could get out on the main deck Lieutenant George Golden stopped me and ordered me back down below to make sure everybody got out Funny thing about the United States Navy they teach you to follow orders no matter what the situation and I got to tell you I wanted out on that main deck really bad, but I went back down and I checked and All I did is look down in there and I could hear the water sloshing around I Didn't really care to see what I knew was down there.
And so I went back up and told the lieutenant Goldman that That there was nobody left there.
I checked all the spaces and I couldn't find anybody As I entered as I went outside to the main deck I met a hail of gunfire 50-caliber machine gun This is Philip Turney a Story about this as he watched this guy's come out of there to the main deck.
He said literally that There were machine gun bullets flying everywhere and you guys were so happy to get out from down below You were hugging each other and just so happy to get out.
You were completely oblivious of the death that was flying all around you Yeah, well, I don't recall it looking back on it Ron Are you sure that you really were the last guy out from down there and that no one was left behind?
Yes, I'm absolutely sure I I checked as I came up.
I checked all the spaces Peering down into the hole down below was tough thing to do I had no plan or anything, but I did call I called several times before I left I did I admit it that or omitted that and I got no answer from anybody What was down there?was men that I had to Identify and recover and identify as the petty officer in charge After we got back into Malta, that was my duty ordered by one of the officers to be in charge of that and What was down there were men in pieces?
I mean literally in pieces.
I mean men that were were jammed into the steam pipes Had to be pulled out Luckily, I wasn't the person that had to do the wasn't down wasn't down clear down below I Had other men that was doing that for me.
What they did is they brought the men in pieces to me and to the deck up above and it was my duty to try to make a something that a semblance of a body that could be sitting back home and Possibly be viewed.
I don't see how any of them could have that could have happened with any of them There was arms legs They were just put in piles and we tried to me and one other fellow that was with me tried to put them together I Really?
Don't like to spend too much time with that.
All I can tell you is that I know that I did it Some extraordinary things happened around that that they're that they're kind of curious Phil Turney again Asked me how I was able to withstand the smell down there and I said, you know, I didn't smell a thing It's funny how the body reacts to something like that I guess shock.
I don't know what else you would call it after the attack Well when the attack was over we did start steaming towards Malta as I told you and that's where we went into dry dock and That's where the body identification and the rate recovery took place When we were done with the cleanup, we were actually Put aboard a c-130 cargo type plane and flew to Madrid Spain from there, we took a United Airlines flight out of there to New York City.
We did arrive in New York City I think about one o'clock in the morning when there's really not very many newsmen around to talk to you I don't know if that was deliberately planned or not, but I Think it was I may want to make one statement here right now First of all, I do a respect the office of any of the leaders of our country.
I respect it to the hill It doesn't mean I have to agree with them.
I I say these things with no respect.
It's just what I saw And I would like to also bring up Phil Turney's book what I saw that day.
It can be found on amazon.com Along with my review of the book which has got a whole slew of comments underneath it Phil's book is got my introduction the invocation There was an invocation that I wrote for the book and if you want that amazon.com is place to go now after we One other one other point.
I'd like to bring out It seems like it's awfully easy for our leaders sometimes to send us off to war when they've never been there themselves How easy that must be?
After we Got into New York I was Had decided that I'd had enough of The United States Navy for a while and I was fairly I was injured to the point where it wasn't visible I had a back injury and a neck injury and Probably about every one of us who had to recover bodies ended up with with the VA terms post-traumatic stress disorder I Discharged in August of 1967.
I went home an absolute mess I've been married twice I'm on my third marriage and I finally made it for over 20 years on this one But I was a very difficult person to live with Only for only for one reason one reason only and that was if anybody tried to deter me from trying to tell the truth about This it may be changed the direction of this country someday.
It just wasn't going to happen And they and they would try and that was why you were so cranky.
They were trying to get you to not tell your story So we're saying Yeah, actually a couple of our reunions.
We were threatened.
I don't know by who I was told that Someone had came into our midst and told us what we were doing was hazardous to our health I guess you could call that a pretty good threat Some of the guys Phil Turney has had things happen to him lug bolts on his truck loosened twice and He was threatened in San Diego at another gathering I can't remember what it was right now, but If you happen to get Phil Turney on he can fill you in a lot better than I I assume you might have his phone number.
I'm sure you do I'm trying to remember if I've interviewed him before or not.
I you're I think probably the third Third or fourth survivor that I've talked with over the years Okay, Phil Turner the name certainly is familiar I'm not certain if he's one of the ones I've talked to before but let me ask you this Ron I'm done with Ron Kukal.
He's a survivor of the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty in the Mediterranean Sea back in 1967 do you have a favorite theory for why they attacked the boat because I think it's pretty much clear I don't think we need to entertain the argument about whether it was an accident or not It was not an accident.
But why was it on purpose?
Do you think?
Well, I'll have to just go along with what several of the leaders back then who really disagreed with the Israeli excuse one up and literally said that They were afraid we were going to interrupt their Efforts to take the Golan Heights and the Gaza Strip They were afraid that we may have intercepted some Messages and by the way, we were in international waters when this happened that may have May have caused them some alarm and I guess they felt that we needed to go to the bottom with all hands aboard and As God is my witness as a former chaplain for the LVA I think they could have thrown the kitchen sink at us and it still wouldn't went to the bottom Because it wasn't going to go it wasn't meant to go And if I were one of the people who was on the Israeli Defense Force, I would have literally said to myself How is it possible?
But that ship is still afloat After taking up one torpedo and ended up with a 40 by 40 foot hole over 888 holes put in the ship rocket holes 50-gallon machine gun holes napalm The whole ball of wax was thrown at the Liberty and it never went to the bottom and for all the God-fearing believing people in this country Let hear this story.
You want to know where God was that day?
I can tell you exactly where he was Holding that boat up, huh?well now so You know you talk about You know, they were worried that America might interrupt their policy this out of the other thing Boy, is that I mean, I don't know what if anybody could ever come up with a Reason not that it would ever be an excuse but a reason that sounds like it makes sense For them to do something so drastic I mean as you're pointing out they certainly meant for that boat to go to the bottom They meant for all y'all to drown they as we know they strafed the lifeboats They meant for there to be no survivors and then they were going to be able to You know write the story of it in the media themselves about what happened there maybe blame Egypt or or you know Presumably blame Egypt, I guess Ray McGovern says he thinks maybe it was they were worried that you guys were eavesdropping on them committing war crimes in the Sinai Peninsula massacring prisoners rather than holding them as POWs that kind of thing, but It just seems like such hoots, but why why would you attack why would you try to sink an American ship?
I mean, I guess if they knew they could really count on LBJ But that seems to me a huge gamble for them to do that for any reason I just never have been able to quite get my head around Well, I can't get around I get around on either.
Of course, you're talking a lot talking a lot about politics of the thing and Actually, I try to stick with the facts of what I saw the politics about this Make me want to puke if you want to know the truth Yeah, because there's people that well if they talk to you about this The first thing they'll come up to about is well, this was just friendly fire as all this was I don't buy it I never will buy it We knew what friendly fire was and they knew who we were from their reconnaissance that morning Do I hate these people I absolutely do not I do not there's good and bad in all races So there's no hatred here on my part.
Just the facts and the truth of what I saw.
That's all I'm putting out here Yeah, sure.
It's perfectly okay to hate lies.
You don't even have to hate the liar to hate lies Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And the same thing goes for the any leaders office in this country.
I was taught to respect it I still respect it.
It doesn't mean I have to agree with what they're doing and I Want to thank if you have time to thank the crew of the USS America the Massey the Davis I Know I'm going for the Little Rock I'm gonna forget all them ships that came to our rescue finally I'm not putting that very politely I guess but the Davis was the first on the scene and I speak on a regular basis with mr.
Larry Broyles who was one of the men that went down below and shored up our bulkheads because there was no doubt in The people's minds that were the experts there.
It wasn't we're going to sink or we may sink.
There's no doubt we were going to sink if these men didn't risk their lives and and Go down there and show up those Compartments so that we could stay afloat God help them and God.
Thank them Admiral Tobin If you can hear me, I thank you because you were probably a lieutenant back then and now you're an admiral But I still thank you, sir.
I wouldn't be here without you men going down and risking your lives One other thing about the USS America when they pulled alongside of this they came as close as they could The whole way along on the aircraft carrier was lined with men that weren't on duty and you could have heard I Kind of come to tears on this.
I choked up a little bit, but you could have heard the shouts of these men on the USS America Could have been around the world it was loud and Coming across the water If anything will bolster your spirits, it would be these other men who?
Actually cheered us and they never stopped hearing Yeah That's really something else.
Yeah, that's the thing.
It's always in the worst kind of catastrophes is when Well, at least of the people who live the very best comes out, you know See the best in people and that kind of thing but That's really one hell of a story it sounds like You know, like you said you're on your third wife now and this one is lasted and and it's been a long time now And you sound like you've kind of gotten past the worst trauma of it.
And now you're just kind of You know doing your part to tell the truth as much as you can But you're you sound like you've gotten your own act together at least by now, right?
Well, I don't know if you'd call it an act together.
Let's just call this say it's spitwad and chewing gum and a little bit of Glue here and there because they wouldn't take much to make it crumble I've lost one.
I lost three out of four my kids because their mother Decided that they didn't need to be around me.
And you know, I don't blame her.
I understand that they don't understand Three of his kids are my daughter Melissa hasn't spoke to me in over 16 years My oldest son for about that long and the middle son is now Tries to speak to me, but I don't know what he's being told But I have a fourth son the youngest of all who said nobody's going to tell me who I can and cannot talk to So it's been the aftermath has been almost as bad as the as the attack itself and the aftermath of the attack But the aftermath of the aftermath Has not been the easy way to go There's times I don't even like to wake up in the mornings because I know I'm going to meet the same thing day after day After day, I give credit to God himself for keeping me Standing up keeping me alive keeping me as healthy as one can be considering what happened That's just the way it is with me When we did the dedication of the USS Liberty Memorial Library in Grafton, Wisconsin I did the invocation and I got to tell you Scott that we had to do that invocation With a SWAT team on the roof of the library and with a SWAT team down the street Because the mayor of Grafton thought something was going to happen to us Wow Boy what a story I just I'm so sorry that this happened to you.
I'm so sorry that it's been so rough dealing with it.
It sounds like Like a real nightmare for you Actually in the long run, I think it's made a person out of me that I can't even describe May be more tolerant May be more aware of what really goes on in this world And actually some good things the United States.
Well, you made some really good friends, too Right, you're part of groups of the other survivors and these kinds of things, right?
Yeah, yeah we have and then there's a lot of camaraderie there that that is still a very apparent today and The United States Navy has been a lot of times so people will say well They just turned their back on you, but you know My uniform is on display in the official Naval Museum down in Norfolk, Virginia.
I'm Nauticus.
I believe the museum is called So, you know, how can I say anything bad about the United States Navy they have displayed it They've exhibited in their Cold War part of the museum Philip Armstrong our exec has his uniform as display on Michigan's own military and Space Museum Stan Bozich Who is the curator of that museum actually has a stone that one of the cities in?
Michigan would not accept it wouldn't have it anywhere in the city limits He took that stone and put it out in front of Michigan's own military and Space Museum in Frank and Ruth, Michigan So there's a lot of great Patriotic people out there and that keeps me going Scott that keeps me going.
I got to tell you
