Robert Greenwald, producer of the documentary Rethink Afghanistan, discusses the false premise used to justify the war in Afghanistan, the usefulness of breaking down war costs into broadly understandable terms, why war opponents need to speak out to their Congressional Representatives and the failure of the occupying forces in their mission (some would say) to liberate Afghan women.
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For Antiwar.com, I'm Scott Horton.
This is Antiwar Radio.
I'm happy to introduce Robert Greenwald.
He's a producer, director, and political activist.
He's the founder and president of Brave New Films.
And he made the Fox Attacks video, The Real McCain, McCain's Mansions.
And he's got a groundbreaking, while I'm reading straight off of the page here, but I agree, a great documentary, Rethink Afghanistan, which I hope, I'd like to believe, is available now, if you go and try to find it and buy it.
Welcome to the show, Robert.
How are you doing?
Very well, thank you.
Nice to be on.
And I'm sorry, did I get that right, that it's available now on Amazon and what have you?
Yes, and if you go to our website, preferably RethinkAfghanistan.com, you can order it there, since the funding there goes directly to allow us to keep doing these videos.
Okay, great.
And that's RethinkAfghanistan.com, you said?
Yes.
Okay, great.
And yeah, I really like this.
You did a great job putting this thing together.
You have all the people I want to hear from.
Andrew Bacevich, Stephen Kinzer, Robert A. Pape is in there, my favorite.
Thomas Barfield, Steve Cole, Linda Bilmes, Robert Baer, a lot of other famous names, expert testimony and descriptions of what's going on.
But I'll tell you what I think is the most important thing about your film, and I hope nobody thinks I'm sounding cynical when I say this, because it's not my point.
The dead people.
We just don't get to see what war actually looks like on American TV at all.
In fact, you don't even get the idea, watching TV, that Afghans are actually people.
They're like this kind of creature or something like that.
You don't get to see footage of them looking just like the guy that lives down the street from you, and he's just some poor guy, and now his kids are dead.
And yet, in this movie, there are pictures of dead civilians.
Lots of pictures of dead civilians, including a lot of little kids.
And this is the kind of thing that Brian Williams will not show the American people, because the American people aren't a bunch of child killers.
They only go along with this because they don't get to see that.
What do you say about all that ranting and raving I just started off with there?
Well, we've been working on the Rethink Afghanistan campaign and videos since January, and I can tell you it's really a profound experience to look at the footage, to go to Kabul, as I did, and to see the civilian casualties, the innocent people whose lives are being totally destroyed by bombing, by attacking their villages, by destroying their communities.
And on a humanitarian level, it's completely outrageous.
But even for the hardliners, the people who believe in this war, every time we bomb a village, every time we kill an innocent, every time we hurt someone, we are enlisting more support for the Taliban.
And that makes the argument that to go in and occupy this country is going to make us safer is a completely erroneous and wrong argument at its core.
We have all kinds of people in Rethink Afghanistan saying that.
We have military experts.
We have former CIA.
We have Afghanistan elected officials.
We have women in Afghanistan.
You name it, which is why it's so critically important that we all speak up very loud and very clearly right now and encourage the administration and force our elected officials to stop this madness.
Well, you know, and that's really the challenge, right?
There are the polls say that majorities and almost approaching super majorities of the American people are against this war, but I guess the polls also say that we're all basically resigned to it because we all know that I guess the best we could do was vote for Obama.
And so that's it.
We're done trying.
There's nothing we can do about it.
We're just the American people.
We don't control this government.
Well, I think that we do have a real, I mean, look, there's certain ideology that's bipartisan and the ideology that the military can solve all problems.
The problems in Afghanistan are profound ones.
It's the third poorest country in the world.
It has economic problems.
It has social problems.
It has health problems.
It has education problems.
But the notion that we'll send in troops to fix it is sadly and tragically an idea that goes across both parties.
However, I do think there's an opportunity we've never had before due to the fact that our country is in economic crisis, tremendous unemployment, people losing their homes.
And listen to this.
We have spent almost $250 billion since the war in Afghanistan began.
And for every time we send a soldier to Afghanistan for one year, it costs you, the taxpayer, $1 million to send a soldier to Afghanistan for one year.
Can you imagine how we can use that money?
And that's what we're going to try to do in the next phase of our Rethink Afghanistan campaign.
Really drive this home, state by state, district by district, how much it's costing you and, of course, how you could be using the money for so many other things.
Well, that's actually a very interesting part of the show where I forget the lady's name who explains, this is how much the war costs Alabama.
This is how much the war costs New York State.
This is how much your share of this is.
I think that that is a very powerful way to try to bring this home to people, because I guess everybody thinks that their share of it is just pennies, right?
We're all kind of chipping in on this thing.
And, you know, they don't really know.
They don't really understand just how much it's costing.
Right.
It was Jo Comerford who's done great work at the National Priorities Institute.
And she talks about it and she talks about it.
You know, she can take you state by state to lay out what it is.
And then you have people explaining it's not just the cost that we know about, but it's what the economists call the hidden cost.
Every time a soldier comes back, his or her family, somebody often has to quit a job to take care of them.
The fact that they are no longer able to go out and earn an income because of an injury, a post-traumatic stress syndrome, or something like that.
So we're only seeing a small sliver of the size and scope of the problem, and it's not being debated.
Now, one thing that we all have to take responsibility for, we're talking to congressmen, we're talking to senators, we're talking to their chiefs of staff.
And over and over again, they say, we're not hearing from our constituents on this issue.
So I would urge every single one of your listeners to take a look at the film or a clip, have a screening, invite the congressman, invite someone from his office to come, and call.
Call and talk to people in the congressperson's office.
They need to hear from us.
And it will affect them, because I can tell you there are a lot of people there in D.C. who are not happy about this war.
Well, you know, thanks for saying that, and I'm sorry for being so cynical.
I sort of feel like, you know, nobody can do anything about any of this, but I don't want to kind of be a self-fulfilling prophecy-making machine here and discourage people from doing that.
I guess I've thought of that, trying to make an appointment with my congressman and explain to them Iran's nuclear program, for example, or something like that.
I wish people would do stuff like that, but I guess most people figure that the congressmen don't really care and wouldn't understand anyway, and they don't even bother.
Well, I think that's true, and certainly we've been through eight years of an administration which was ideologically committed and very firm that it was not going to, in fact, listen to anybody other than somehow the connection that they had directly with the gods or the ghosts that they spoke to.
But I think it is a different administration.
I think it still is a problem, because, again, the people are against it, and yet the war keeps going forward.
It's a similar problem we have on some of the economic stuff, but, you know, there's that great line that I quote a lot, which is, democracy is not a spectator sport.
So if you sit on the sideline, then what you're going to get is the sideline view, period.
Now, I've got to tell you, I was kind of surprised, and maybe, you know, I was trying to read and watch at the same time and doing different things, and I didn't understand, but it seemed to me like you kind of went all code pink on me at the end of the movie, and instead of what seemed to me the natural conclusion of the hour, which is we've got to get the hell out of there yesterday, you kind of talk about how we need to be occupying it this way instead of that way or something like that.
Am I right?
No.
The idea is that, first of all, our job with any of the films, whether it's, we think, Afghanistan or Fox or Walmart, is to call attention to the problem.
We're not a think tank.
We're not elected officials.
We're not an organization that turns out voters, and our role is very specific.
Here's an issue.
Did you know about it?
Here's something about Fox.
Here's something about the insurance companies.
All of these are available on our website and free, by the way.
The end of the movie, what we talk about is a couple of examples of NGOs, local smaller groups, that are doing some just common sense work that's very simple and what they need there.
So certainly the argument is very strong in the film throughout that the military will not solve these problems.
Then the question you say, well, how do you solve them?
And what we say is we're not going to say how to solve them, but here's someone who's providing jobs.
Here's someone who's providing health care.
And we just arranged a delivery of food to one of the civilian refugee camps.
Now, that's social service versus social change, but people have such a profound, after seeing parts of the film, such a profound and strong sense of wanting to do something.
We felt it was very important to highlight some organizations that are working specifically in and with Afghan people.
I have a friend who is a relief pilot, I guess still is, but he's flown into Afghanistan, Iraq and the Congo and the Sudan and all the worst civil wars in the world, flying U.N. peacekeepers around and food aid and that kind of thing.
And he says that this is something that the NGOs really always have to grapple with is the possibility, and I guess it's always true to a degree, that they actually make the wars, they help make the wars possible by kind of cleaning up the aftermath or helping to cushion the pain of the people who are on the receiving end of all the violence, sort of makes it so that the actual war isn't so bad.
I mean, I don't want to, obviously it's a rock and a hard place kind of thing.
You have a refugee camp full of starving people, somebody's got to feed them.
But then again, oh, they're being fed.
So, you know, they're not that bad off as refugees.
At least they have plenty of food to eat.
That kind of thing.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Well, I don't think that having a humanitarian approach to some of the specific pains and agonies will diminish in any way the commitment and passion of people that the war has to end.
I think that, however, one wouldn't want to say to hell with them just to serve the overall, which is the critical issue, which is how do we end this war.
All right.
Now, another thing that I thought was really important that you spend a lot of time in in the movie, I know we just have about five minutes here, but you talk about you have a lot of women there.
And, of course, beginning with the clip of Laura Bush talking about how wonderful it is that all the women of Afghanistan have been freed.
And yet you have, I believe, three different quotes from three different women saying that for the average woman in Afghanistan, things now are much worse than when the Taliban ruled the country.
Is that really right?
Yeah, it was one of the shocking things that I discovered when I was over there.
One thing you have to remember is that Afghanistan is comprised of a series of tribes.
Now, for some tribes, things definitely are better for some women.
But the mythology that we went in to liberate the women of Afghanistan is 1000% false.
The Karzai government and its partners, the warlords and the drug dealers and the corrupt officials, are in fact treating women in horrific ways.
That recent Karzai law essentially legalizes rape.
It was done in order for Karzai to get the support of what they call the fundamentalists in the election.
Now, the important thing is to not...
Here's certainly an example of some of our good friends and progressive friends in the women's movement who said, oh, yeah, well, we have to be there because we are protecting and defending the women of Afghanistan.
Well, it's patently, objectively and factually not true.
And it's important we know that.
It's important that people look at that section of the film and come to terms with it.
We didn't send in the army to protect the feminist revolution.
Well, I think that's the saddest thing is that somehow the whole Laura Bush spin about protecting women and regime change against those horrible medieval Taliban and all that for the good of the people there.
That still seems to be the dominant narrative.
And in fact, I mentioned Code Pink earlier.
That's their kind of...
They are an advocacy group who used to say we want a timeline right now and it ought to be a short one.
And now they're saying, well, but what about the women?
Actually, Code Pink's not.
I mean, that was...
They were misinterpreted.
In fact, Jodi Evans, one of the co-founders, just met with the president.
She gave him a petition from thousands of Afghan women.
She gave him a copy of our film, We Think Afghanistan.
There are other women's groups who have taken that position.
But in fact...
Well, Medea Benjamin came on this show and explained that she wants basically a civilian occupation, not a military one.
And we have to build their justice system and build up their schools and build up their infrastructure.
And she wants all the nation building but without soldiers, she told me.
Right.
But I don't think she would...
I'm certain Medea would not want that if it's not what people from Afghanistan asked for.
You know, it's a very different...
Well, it depends who you ask.
If you ask Karzai's minister of women's rights or whatever, that's what she wants.
And that's who they asked.
I think that if you ask lots of Afghanistan people who don't want the troops, they would like some support.
They would like some help.
But ultimately, that's for the Afghan women and the Afghan people to figure out, right?
It's not our job to legislate that by any shape or form.
And I think that that's a, you know, that's very important.
Because these people back in these think tanks decide we think we should do this, that or the other thing for Afghanistan.
And it's an obscenity.
And now, I'm sorry, because there's so much to get to here.
We could talk all about Robert Pape for half an hour.
That would be great.
But you actually spend quite a bit of time showing clips of different experts talking about the real threat of a full-scale invasion and really spreading this war into Pakistan, that kind of thing.
Yeah, well, Pakistan, everyone seems to agree, is the significant challenge.
It's got, you know, many more people.
It's much bigger, and it has nuclear weapons.
And there's a very clear argument that our policies in Afghanistan have the potential to further destabilize Pakistan.
So it's, again, an example of go to the core fundamental issue.
Why are we in Afghanistan?
The argument is we're there to make the United States more secure.
And then we approach each one of the justifications.
And it's not only not justified, but you could make very strong arguments that we are less secure because we are bombing, hurting innocent people, which turns the populace against us.
We are less secure because we'll have this potential effect of destabilizing Pakistan.
And we are less secure because it's taking our economy and running it to hell.
Yep, sounds good to me.
And I really do appreciate the effort.
It's actually a really good movie, and I urge everybody to go out and get it.
Of course, we'll have a link to the website where everybody can buy it, where this podcast is posted later on the archive at antiwar.com slash radio.
And I really appreciate your time on the show today, and best of luck to you with this.
Thank you.
I appreciate all the help, and I encourage all your listeners to get involved.
Right on.
All right.
Thanks a lot.
And, you know, he's right.
You guys should go talk to your congressman.
Guarantee, you're listening to this show, you already know more than they do.
Go and learn them a thing or two.
And, in fact, why not watch Rethink Afghanistan as your footnotes and your crib sheet to get prepared.
