12/07/08 – Robert Dreyfuss – The Scott Horton Show

The Charles Goyette Show, KFNX News Talk Radio in Phoenix, Arizona.
And we're going to have to plow right through this interview as fast as we can.
So let's go ahead and bring on our guest, Robert Dreyfuss.
He's one of America's great investigative reporters.
He writes for The Nation, Rolling Stone, The American Prospect, Mother Jones, TomPain.com, Neiman Watchdog.
His website is RobertDreyfuss.com.
And his book is one of the most important books that you could possibly get your hands on concerning American Middle East policy.
It's called Devil's Game, How the United States Helped Unleash Fundamentalist Islam.
Robert, are you there?
I'm here.
Hi.
How are you doing?
I'm doing great.
How are you, sir?
I am great.
All right.
Now, let's get right to it here.
There are two – well, you tell me yes or no to this one.
There are two major factions in Iraq.
There's the Hakeem clan, which is the power behind the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq, SCIRI, and the Sadr clan, al-Muqtada al-Sadr, the power behind the Mahdi army, right?
Well, among the Shiites, yes.
Those are the two Shiite leaders who are really kind of facing off right now in Iraqi politics.
Okay.
Now, which side is backed by America, and which side is backed by Iran?
The funny thing is that the United States and Iran are backing the same side.
Oh, no.
We're both supporting the Iraqi government and its establishment faction under the Hakeem family, the Supreme Council.
The Supreme Council was actually created in Iran 25 years ago.
It was, for most of that time, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Iranian intelligence service and their Revolutionary Guard.
They were Iraqi middle-class Shiite exiles who fled to Iran and built an army with Iranian help.
And after the U.S. invasion, they came back and established themselves.
And not only was Iran supporting them all along, but now the United States brought them into the inner councils of the Iraqi government, and they're now the most important players in that Iraqi government.
So the paradox of all this is here you have the general and the ambassador, the two main players for the United States in Baghdad, pointing their fingers at Iran and saying that Iran is trying to undermine and destabilize the American presence in Iraq, when in fact the main Iranian allies are the ones in the Iraqi government.
So the Sadr forces, the people you mentioned earlier, this young 30-something rebel cleric named Muqtada al-Sadr, he's the one who operates the Mahdi army.
He's really more of a nationalist, and he's opposed to the American presence in Iraq.
So I guess it's not a surprise that we're not supporting him.
We are supporting the pro-Iranian group, which so far at least is happy to take American help in order to build up its own army and police against their rivals, especially the Sunnis.
Of course they're also building up that army against Sadr and his Shiite forces as well.
Now Robert Dreyfuss, you've also written about this attempt by Muqtada al-Sadr, to create what he calls the government of national salvation.
What's that?
Well, this is something that's been talked about for probably a year now in Iraq.
There's an effort by various people, both Sunni and Shia, to come up with a nationalist solution to create an alliance of opposition parties between the Iraqi parliament and the government and the public at large there.
And this would include almost all of the Sunni parties.
It would include the secular parties, that is the non-religious ones like Iyad Allawi's party.
He was a former prime minister.
And it would include, and that's the plan, to bring Sadr into it.
And what unites these groups is three things.
They're opposed to Al-Qaeda, they're opposed to Iran, to excessive influence by Iran in Iraq, and they're also opposed to the US occupation.
Now, they have a lot of differences, but those three things that unite them make it, I think, very possible for them to reach some sort of stable agreement if they were left alone.
Well, now, isn't that interesting?
Because, Robert Dreyfuss, all the talk is about wanting a multi-ethnic coalition government, trying to end the civil war.
We can't leave yet, because we'll leave it in a state of civil war.
And yet, we're blocking a multi-ethnic coalition government in favor of the Iran faction.
And basically what you're telling me is this multi-ethnic coalition government they're trying to put together wants to fight Al-Qaeda, wants to fight the influence of Iran, but they get a big X where they want to fight the occupation of the United States.
And so we would rather, American policymakers would rather back the Iran faction, rather than letting these people end the civil war, but then having to give up our own occupation of Mesopotamia.
Is that about it?
Well, that's exactly right.
And the problem for the United States is anybody we support loses credibility among Iraqis, because the Iraqis have become increasingly anti-American, and they blame the United States for the mess that Iraq is in.
So any Iraqi politician we support tends to be the kiss of death for their popularity.
So we end up propping up these unpopular parties simply because they're willing to cooperate with us.
Because they need us.
Yeah, the vast majority of Iraqis want us to leave, and they want to support politicians who want us to leave.
So those are precisely, you know, that's what I call the catch-22 of Iraqi politics, is any Iraqi politician we support isn't going to have much support any longer from the people.
And, you know, we keep hearing on TV that we just can't leave because the situation will get so much worse.
But worse for who?
Worse for the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution that was created by the Ayatollah Khomeini?
Why do I care if the situation gets worse for them?
Well, it's, you know, you have to be a little bit careful, because with each passing day you're having a hardening of sentiments.
You're having a hardening of people's attitudes, and sectarian hatreds are growing.
So it's possible that when we leave there will be a fair amount of killing.
The problem is the longer we stay, the worse that's likely to get, because we're reinforcing these sectarian divisions.
And now, isn't it just a shame, too, that apparently no one who has a job talking about news on TV can understand any of this?
They just can't.
Well, you know, most Americans have thrown up their hands, and they've given up trying to understand Iraqi politics.
And so now you have a lot of politicians, Democrats and Republicans, saying, oh, well, it's all the Iraqis' fault, and yeah, we should get out because the Iraqis can't get their act together.
And I think, you know, there's an impatience to try to even begin to understand what makes Iraq work from the inside.
Right.
Absolutely.
Well, ladies and gentlemen, if you want to know how Iraq works from the inside, you could do a lot worse than to read the writings of Robert Dreyfuss, American investigative reporter.
You can find all that he writes at robertdreyfuss.com.
Thanks very much for your time today.
Thank you, Scott.
All right, folks, this is the Charles Koyet Show on KFNX News Talk Radio, 1100 a.m. in Phoenix, Arizona.
I'm Scott Horton from antiwar.com filling in.
And so there you have it.
America's allies in Iraq are Iran's allies in Iraq.
Coming up, are Iranian bombs responsible for lost lives of American soldiers in Iraq?
We'll talk with Gareth Porter from the American Prospect and IPS News.
And your phone calls right after this.