All right y'all welcome back to the show It's anti-war radio.
Our next guest is phil geraldi former cia and dia counterterrorism officer And uh contributing editor at the american conservative magazine contributing uh writer Regular contributor or something anti-war.com, of course original.anti-war.com/geraldi And he's the executive editor of the council for the national interest foundation.
Uh, welcome back to the show phil.
Hey scott Uh appreciate you joining us today.
So, uh foreign policy magazine, uh online came out with this article um about uh, john dala the Well, i'll let you go ahead and describe him.
I guess this uh terrorist group operating inside iran and the story is that Perhaps we're wrong.
We thought the cia was backing these guys all this time But really it was massad pretending to be cia and we all had bad information or something.
What what's going on here?
Well, I think it's it's kind of like peeling an onion, you know There are layers to this that uh, it depends i've i've been looking very carefully at some of the comments coming out from the government Uh on what what has been going on?
They haven't really been uh, very forthcoming.
I must admit but uh, hillary keeps uh declaring uh Generically speaking.
We haven't been involved with Assassinating iranian scientists.
We haven't been involved with this that and the other thing.
Well, the fact is, you know, we are involved but the question is uh, who's pulling the trigger in some of these cases in in this case the jundala, which um There has been a lot of evidence has been supported both by the pakistanis and the u.s Um, it now appears that they were um in some cases at least being directed by israeli case officers using u.s passports and pretending to be cia Uh, nobody's denied the report and apparently it's it's quite true.
I had a a piece in um, the american conservative magazine back in september 2010 which reported that israeli intelligence officers in the u.s Were approaching u.s citizens arab americans and were obtaining their cooperation by pretending to be Fbr pretending to be cia.
So, you know, these these accounts have been out there for a while well, but uh, that's still uh Running jundala inside iran in the name of the u.s or nato, I guess as they claim but now seymour hirsch I guess, uh, you know gareth was on the show yesterday gareth porter, uh for my ps news and and he said that yeah You know, this all sounded plausible to him um, and uh But I guess he seemed to think that the origin of the story that it was the cia that was backing jundala and not the israelis uh was simply the lies of the israelis and that jundala went bragging that they were sponsored by the cia and that was the word that Got back to seymour hirsch and andrew coburn and to you because you've been reporting that america's cia has been backing them For a couple of years anyway, right or not?
Well, I don't know I mean, I you know, my sources basically were that jundala was carrying out these operations And they were being supported by the united states government now, uh, I think even at the time as I think back um, a lot of the Assumption was that they were really being run by somebody else like the pakistanis or you know Uh mossad really didn't come up because it would it would seem have seemed to be fairly far-fetched For mossad officers to be able to operate in that part of the world So, uh, you know, but I think that I think the consensus has to be here that yeah jundala has been supported By somebody and uh, basically they've been carrying out terror operations inside inside iran Um, obviously there are a number of possible players who have an interest in doing that So, is it the consensus then that jindala are the guys, uh driving up on motorcycles and bombing iranian scientists No, I don't think so.
I think that's another story.
That's uh, I think that's either I think that's people that have been recruited by either cia or uh mossad and uh been trained And uh been trained, uh and sent back into iran, I believe they're iranians or persians, otherwise, they would have trouble operating inside iran and um, uh, I suspect they were recruited out of mech Which is why we're seeing so much Stuff in support of mech coming out of various politicians and other interest groups because mech is kind of their uh, Their boys they're cutting edge in terms of getting inside iran and carrying out these kind of operations I you know, it it's funny, but you know, I have having been an experienced cia case officer I understand how this stuff works a lot better than somebody in a newspaper and and the fact is that a guy like me or a mossad officer Doesn't have the ability to go inside iran and carry out an operation So you've got to acquire somebody else who can do it for you And in this case, there are some obvious candidates mech would be I think the most prominent It's probably slightly less possible that it could be some kurdish groups Uh, but the same kind of dynamic people who speak the local language who more or less can fit in I guess they're uh, according to this article Bush was really mad about this.
He went absolutely ballistic that the israelis were posing as americans and recruiting these As bush would have called them al-qaeda tied terrorists against iran under his nose without his authority Yeah, that's what the article that's what the article says and mark perry is the author of the article and and he is uh He's a meticulous researcher and and a checker of facts.
So I have to believe that that's correct and uh, That means that the the the story about um israel being involved with jindala using the fake documents Has been around for a while.
It just hasn't surfaced uh and then So would you agree with garrett that the purpose of this is just to marginalize the moderates and make any type of reasonable negotiation impossible?
I don't know.
I think it's more complicated than that.
I think the idea of uh, I did a piece for for any war Uh on secret wars back about three or four weeks ago, I think right about the two new findings Yeah, and the findings and I think the idea is in the case of iran in the case of syria They want to overthrow the regime in in the case of iran, they know they're not going to overthrow the regime and I think it's just a question of of setting up a bunch of relationships and employing various covert actions to um To destabilize to make uh to make the iranian government waste a lot of resources on dealing with these problems I think that's probably more so what it is Yeah, well, uh, john glazer pointed out in one of his pieces that yeah Look how completely ineffectual the iranian fbi is whatever it is their Uh counterintelligence agency is getting pantsed over and over again over there right now Well, I don't know how it's blowing up and scientists dying.
I don't know how true that is.
I mean, it's uh My what I hear when I talk to iranians is that the uh, the police state there is pretty effective uh So I you know the fact that these operations are being pulled off there It it implies that there's a certain level of sophistication They have they claim to have caught some people earlier this week but the the report never followed up with any names or identities as far as I can tell but uh, yeah, you could you can argue on one level that they they seem to be somewhat ineffective, but uh, nevertheless, I mean to carry out an operation like this and one include One has to you know consider that there's a certain level of sophistication to it It means that these people were pretty well prepared on the outside and probably Sent in and they had uh infrastructure with them, but they had to be people that that mixed in locally and that were were Indistinguishable from the local population.
Otherwise, it wouldn't work Now they say in here I I believe mark perry writes that Uh, the iranians were mad because the pakistanis Uh government didn't crack down on jindal like they promised they would is that just they want to deflect these guys Across their western border if they got to deal with them at all or what's going on there Well, i'm not sure what that means But you know, I I have been hearing for years that the packs were kind of in bed with us in terms of using jindala so I I think that you know, this is kind of a Maybe on the part of the iranians a diplomatic way of saying that you know, we know you're involved with this Um, i'm not sure what that means to be honest well, and now these guys, um I guess it shouldn't go without saying or anything that apparently they uh do suicide bombings And uh, they like to kidnap cops and soldiers and kill them Uh, shoot them in the back of the head or cut their heads off these kinds of things.
Uh These are you know what we'd have called the worst enemies in the worst days of the iraq war, of course Just like them Types yeah All right now, uh, hold it right there.
We'll be right back everybody with phil geraldi after this original.antiwar.com All right y'all welcome back to the show it's anti-war radio i'm scott horton i'm talking with phil geraldi From the american conservative and antiwar.com and the council for the national interest foundation um His latest piece is creating american terrorists, which I hope we'll have a minute to talk about that in a minute Uh, but the one before that is what war with iran?might look like and uh My segue to that is this wall street journal piece about how uh president obama himself and uh, the secretary of defense have uh personally called benjamin netanyahu and uh Other uh political military leaders in israel and told them to not get us into a war Is it uh really like that they're begging please don't give our sanctions more time to work at whatever it is They're supposed to do.
I don't know Well, yeah, I think it is.
I think that the issue here is that as I think i've said every time we've discussed this On your show the uh, I don't think obama wants a war with iran.
I think that's the last thing he wants But uh, you know, he's under pressure to to make it look as if he's willing to do so And it was interesting just before christmas.
I think uh, or maybe just after when leon panetta the secretary of defense um said that the red line for the united states with iran meaning The point at which we would have to feel compelled to take military action was if iran actually possessed a nuclear weapon Now that's that's kind of you know walk the dog back a bit because It used to be that was just a capability was the thing that and this was the israeli line pretty much that we were aping But now I it's clear that to me.
Anyway, that that the administration is trying very hard to avoid this and avoid a war Well, that's good.
But how worried are they that netanyahu will really drag them kicking and screaming into a war phil?
You think they must be seriously worried?
Otherwise, they wouldn't be doing these kinds of things and and you're quite right.
They have only limited ability to pressure um, uh israel into into doing anything and So I think they are are genuinely worried.
Um, i've i'm doing a piece right now for the american conservative Which will be out early next week about how the um National security agency has been monitoring israeli military transmissions And has seen a surge in these transmissions which normally indicates that some kind of military action is impending um, but um, but the analysts in washington are all divided as to who the target is Is it is it lebanon?
Is it gaza or is it iran?
Nobody knows.
Yeah, and uh more frank admissions echoing really what netanyahu and and ahub rock told jeffrey goldberg Back, I guess a year and a half ago um That they didn't really fear an iranian first strike They just were worried that their ability to act in lebanon and palestine would be limited And uh, the israeli army chief has echoed that same thing as reported by the associated press uh this week and uh So it seems like there really is a little bit of a pushback.
Uh, the washington post chose to reprint this one and highlight it Uh, I guess maybe wishful thinking that there's a little bit of pushback from the american establishment about this like hey, we said no Okay, something like that.
Maybe yeah, I think there's considerable pushback coming from the pentagon or from the intelligence agencies And and you know, of course that they the pentagon canceled a joint exercise with israel Uh scheduled for april I think and um, it's so there's considerable pushback and and people are waking up to the fact that uh, War with iran would first of all not be easy And and secondly could have very serious negative consequences for the united states.
I think people are starting to figure that one out Yeah, well, um, yeah, it's funny because On tv the way it works the consensus is well Something's got to be done about it and it just sort of goes without saying that this one will be great Everybody will love this war.
It'll be just fine Don't worry about any negative consequences of it because they just never come up at all But then when ron paul says we don't need another war the way he says if you go, hey, yeah, I think maybe that guy's right maybe It didn't work out so well the last time man.
Maybe he's getting through to some Yeah, I think that's the that's the point.
I think that as as uh, somnolent as the american public is on most issues I think that the evidence is there that uh, What happened in iraq was not really a good thing for us and and what's happening in afghanistan is not a good thing and so the thought of you know tripling down on On a war just uh in hopes that it'll turn out better against a country That's much bigger more populous and much better armed and prepared Than than either of the previous adversaries is uh is kind of kind of getting through I think Well, you know the already, uh kind of pre-coronated Uh Republican front-runner Mitt romney has made iran his number one issue that barack obama has been so weak on this when You know, you would think that weakness could have been translated into a willingness to negotiate But nah, he just does everything wrong with all the sanctions and all the threats and still is you know Criticized this week.
That's like romney's leading issue as mj.
Rosenberger's writing this week That's more important than the economy to mitt romney's campaign right now Yeah, and and the scary thing of course is that a lot of romney's advisors are neocons So, uh, we're going to get the same kind of logic Telling us that that this is what we should do because we have to do it uh in there in terms of our national interest and uh, Certainly nobody in romney's campaign is going to be challenging that All right.
Now in this piece at anti-war.com Uh phil you write what war with iran might look like And this one gets all the way to uh a pretty big, uh, you know uranium fission thing going on there uh by the end Uh, it doesn't necessarily have to be quite that bad To be pretty bad the way you describe not just uh, you know likely, but extremely probable immediate consequences within weeks of a real American and or israeli war with iran Can you take us through some of that?
Well, basically I hypothesized that uh a small incident because the the atmosphere is so charged A small incident could easily escalate into something much bigger.
That's the the premise of the piece and and it uh, it essentially says that you know, the situation could develop and and uh, suddenly things get out of control the uh, Uh, I was actually fairly generous in the piece As it turns out we had some people commenting on it who pointed out that in fact, um, the the iranians have major capabilities In terms of of swarming small boats as they describe it and and also in terms of some missile technologies to sink u.s warships uh, not to mention tankers and so this whole threat of closing the Straits of hormuz is a very serious one if there were a war And would probably come about and but then the issue becomes for me, which I tried to lay out in the article Is once you start a war like this, how do you stop it?
And the only option that I can see that the u.s has if it started a war with iran And and felt it had gone far enough would be to say.
Hey, if you don't stop right now We're going to nuke you and at that point the iranian response would almost certainly be The hell with you And uh, and then what we do and of course once you start that game the war becomes a lot bigger Thing and you have nuclear on pakistan and india right on the border there You have have numerous other issues and and basically, you know I I could see how something like this could turn out into something like world war three and uh, it's scary as hell and and uh, It as you probably noted the piece when it appeared in anti-war went went kind of crazy I think we got about a hundred comments On it, which is very unusual and uh, it's it played all over the the internet so This is something people should be thinking about it.
Oh, you know this whole idea of a surgical strike A contained war is a lot of nonsense Yeah, it's just um Really the perfect kind of irony.
I mean even really unlike iraq.
I don't think you could quite say this about iraq is a Situation where they Are not the threat they're being portrayed as that we have to preempt by a million miles and yet They are just powerful enough to fight back like hell in an asymmetric kind of fashion.
They can't really come here I guess I will ask you to comment on whether you know hamas, uh cigarette uh salesman can uh, you know wage attacks here in the united states, but Mostly what they can do is screw up the american empire over there And and as you're saying perhaps even worse Uh, but they could cost all of america's everything in the gulf, for example as you describe it in this article Yeah, they they clearly could I mean, let's face it.
I mean they do have resources and as you say, they're asymmetrical Uh, but they like for example hezbollah could inflict serious damage on israel Uh before being bombed into the stone age, but I mean they could inflict serious damage And uh, and there would certainly be terrorist attacks inside the united states Uh, there would certainly be terrorist attacks throughout the middle east region and probably all over europe.
So it's um, you know, this is serious stuff All right, y'all you heard it phil geraldi original dot anti-war.com/geraldi check him out at the council for the national interest foundation where he's the executive director and Also the american conservative magazine dot com.
Thanks phil
