04/18/07 – Mike McNulty – The Scott Horton Show

For Antiwar.com and Chaos Radio 95.9 FM in Austin, Texas, I'm Scott Horton, and this is Antiwar Radio.
Welcome to the show, Mike.
Thank you for having me.
It's very good to talk to you, and I think when Waco, the rules of engagement came out, I was shocked.
I saw it at the Dobie Mall here in Austin, and I guess I'd already known quite a bit of the story from pieces here and there.
But you really take the entire narrative that the government gave us after what happened at Waco and turn it completely upside down and inside out, don't you?
Well, we didn't actually do that.
The evidence that we discovered did that.
Steve, there's been a change.
The tactical people have changed the situation, and for security reasons and for safety reasons, no one is now authorized to come out of there for any reason.
And what they're telling me is that if anybody does, they are going to be dealt with in such a fashion that the people will have to retreat back to the compound.
That's what people have a hard time understanding.
If they're not familiar with the subset story of how the film was made, I've even had people accuse me of just making up things out of whole cloth.
But the truth was that we went where the evidence led us, and the secret, if we had any success with those films, the secret of it was having access, gaining access to places like the evidence locker held by the Texas Rangers in Austin, Texas.
And being able to find film footage made by the Texas Rangers in the early stages and the aftermath of April 19th.
I'm reminded of a story that comes out of an old Groucho Marx film where he was playing the role of a lecherous old man, and he was in bed with this gorgeous platinum blonde.
And in walks his fish-faced wife, just a horrible looking woman, and starts screaming and yelling at him.
And he starts explaining to her what was going on, and in the final analysis he says, who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?
And the facts are the facts, the evidence is the evidence.
And that's what we used to base the storytelling on, was what did the evidence show us?
What does it mean?
And it's amazing how the government lied even in the face of these facts, and they continue to lie.
And then eventually it was a bit too much for Ms. Reno to take, so she called on the U.S. Marshals to go and raid the FBI Hostage Rescue Team offices in Quantico, Virginia.
And for example, the long missing infrared videotape that they claimed didn't exist except for the middle tape of three, the number two tape, they found the number one and number three tapes.
And gee whiz, a few other things like, oh I don't know, the lies about not using pyrotechnic devices.
Right, well, let's back up a little bit and I guess we can get to Janet Reno and whether she was mad or just covering for herself at that point.
But let's rewind a little bit and maybe you can just give us kind of a brief thumbnail sketch of who these people were.
I guess the common conception is that David Koresh was one of these Charles Manson, Jim Jones types who had this crazy cult and led them all to suicide.
Those children are dead because David Koresh had them killed.
There's no question about that.
He had those fires started.
He chose those children to die.
We didn't have anything to do with their deaths.
We never went in.
We did not introduce fire to this compound.
It was not our intention that this compound be burned down.
I can't tell you the shock and the horror that all of us felt when we saw those flames coming out there.
It was, oh my God, they're killing themselves.
Well, that is a pop cultural concept developed by the media.
Well, and also, you know, that was what it said in my college history textbook.
Oh, really?
Well, it is what's more acceptable.
It's a lot more acceptable to think that Koresh and his followers were a bunch of crazy individuals who deserved what they got.
And that's the image that's been portrayed.
But when you stop and think about it for a minute, I thought we stopped burning heretics, social or religious, at the stake with their children back in the 12th century.
But apparently we hadn't.
And that is the truth.
The Branch Davidians as a group of people are pretty passive and unremarkable in terms of, you know, are they wide-eyed, radical, crazy religionists?
No, didn't find them to be so.
Was David Koresh a wonderful, sweet young man?
No, not the kind of fellow I would bring home to dinner with mom and the kids.
But on the other hand, what he was doing, I'll give you an example.
The evidence that the ATF had was rather skimpy, but they claimed that he had weapons that were made illegally.
And of course, you know, in light of recent news, like the shooting at the Virginia Tech, you know, that sounds horrendous.
Oh, that's terrible.
But the fact was that after all that had happened there, I had the opportunity to ask the U.S. attorney, Bill Johnston, who was the prosecutor in the case, Bill, if Koresh had been taken in quietly and prosecuted and he was found guilty, what would he have expected to be sentenced for all of this horrendous crime?
And he says, oh, well, he probably would have gotten about five years probation.
You mean for the charges on the original warrant?
Right.
And now when you talk about the burning people at the stake, it's, you know, that sounds kind of hyperbolic.
But, you know, I do remember back, I was, I guess, probably 15 or something at the time.
But I remember that basically the whole society was behind killing those people.
The ladies at the grocery store wanted them to be killed.
The callers to talk radio wanted them to be killed.
The common refrain was, well, I'm just sick and tired.
I wish to go in this thing.
And that meant no matter what has to happen to him, what he says is Jesus will nail him to a tree then.
Well, as to who Koresh thought he was and who the FBI thought he was, neither one of them were right.
It was like watching two cults battle it out on the plains of Texas.
One cult was the Branch Davidians.
The other cult was the FBI Hostage Rescue Team with their associates in the combat applications group at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, otherwise known as Delta Force.
So it's sort of strange.
I mean, that's not really my observation.
That was the observation of a very highly well thought of professor of psychology, and he's also a law professor at Harvard University.
And that was his conclusion.
This was a collision of two cults on the Texas plains.
As he put it in the first film, the more he learned about what was going on inside, the more he understood what was going on outside, and that the folks outside were the real problem, the folks inside really weren't.
Well, that was the government's own expert who had to go in and make some determinations.
So I don't know what can be said about it.
I think people need to ask the question today, well, why is Waco important today, April 18, 2007?
Well, the answer to that question is found in the second film, Waco, A New Revelation.
And I think the question is raised about two-thirds of the way through when we discover that people in the White House were actually calling the shots that day.
And we discover that Mrs. Clinton and Vince Foster were the ones that were making these decisions and calls on the final resolution at Waco, April 19.
And interestingly enough, it impacted Mr. Foster so much that it probably had a major play or role in his ultimate demise on July 20, 1993.
He is alleged to have shot himself in Fort Marcy Park.
There are those that believe that the evidence says that he wasn't killed there.
He was killed somewhere else.
Nevertheless, what's strange is immediately after Mr. Foster's death, a woman named Williams, who was the chief of staff of Mrs. Clinton, went into Mr. Foster's office along with Mr. Bernie Nesbaum, who was the chief legal counsel for the president.
And who had been Mrs. Clinton's former boss during the Watergate hearings when she worked as a young attorney on the Watergate prosecutions of Richard Nixon.
And Mr. Nesbaum and Ms. Williams recovered a number of documents from Mr. Foster's office.
One of those documents was described by his staff in testimony before the Senate Whitewater Committee hearings as a letter that he was working on to be released to the public, explaining to the public the White House's role in the endgame at Waco on April 19, 1993.
Mrs. Foster, his wife, said that there were a lot of things, and this was said in a sworn statement to the FBI, there were a lot of things that bothered Vince about Washington and the way Washington did things.
But the thing that bothered him the most was the death of all the children at Waco and how he felt personally responsible.
What evidence do you have that Hillary actually worked with him on calling those shots there?
This is information that's contained in the film presented by people like the FBI liaison who operated in the White House during this time and worked with Mr. Foster on many of the clearances that had to be done for the Clinton staff.
You have to remember this was early on in the Clinton administration, and he had a pretty close relationship with Mr. Foster and told us many things, many of which are in the film, the second film.
Exactly what Mrs. Clinton's role is is hard to say unless we could view that document, that letter that was confiscated from Mr. Foster's office.
It was packaged up with some other documents and, according to the testimony in the Senate Whitewater hearings, was hand-delivered by Mr. Foster's intern in the company of Ms. Williams to Mrs. Clinton in the private court.
And that she was the last one to have those documents in hand.
And so I guess the question would be, gee, Mrs. Clinton, where are the documents?
What do they say about the White House's role in the endgame at Waco?
And why have you taken them and hidden them all these years?
Very interesting.
And now, wasn't there a deposition that Bill Clinton gave to Judicial Watch or someone where he admitted that he had given some orders that day as well?
Actually, that has to do with his signing of an executive order at Hillary's insistence to allow the presence of Delta Force, which required a presidential executive order.
The only other time that has occurred that the President of the United States has used the Delta Force operators in a civilian-slash-domestic, in other words, presence on American soil.
Operation was in the mid-'80s when President Ronald Reagan sent Delta Force in to assist the FBI hostage rescue team at Talladega Prison during the Muriel boat people riots.
And they were brought in for a breaching operation, not dissimilar to what was the ultimate endgame at Waco.
Okay, now it's clear that if the combat applications group, that is Delta Force, was there, then they must have been ordered there by Bill Clinton.
Janet Reno surely can't dispatch the Delta Force.
But then again, you say, at Hillary Clinton's insistence.
That was the impression given to us by the FBI agent who was the liaison operative inside the White House.
I think, to say it conclusively, I think we need to see the documents under Mr. Foster's hand as to his explanation of what happened, what was the White House's role.
And by that, does that mean that Mrs. Clinton made those decisions or that she convinced her husband?
This was their pattern in the early years of the Clinton administration, that Mrs. Clinton would influence her husband, had great influence with him.
And it was expressed several times to us that Mrs. Clinton was very concerned about the impact of what was going on at Waco on the fledgling presidential administration, and that what was happening at that particular time, one of the things that was specifically mentioned in testimony before congressional hearings was the concern on the part of the administration about the increasing costs of this standoff.
You have to remember it went 51 days, and it was costing literally millions of dollars.
So there was plenty of rationales and reasons that went around.
I think the real issue here is, in order to know what the details of the truth were, who said what, how things were done, we would need to see those records that were illicitly removed from Mr. Foster's office.
Because you have to remember, that was a federal crime scene.
Mr. Foster was a federal government representative in the executive branch, and the law prescribed the FBI was to investigate his death, and the documents that were removed from his office were nothing less than evidence.
And so we have evidence tampering, we have issues of preventing justice from going forward, and it wouldn't surprise me if there were some charges possible based on that evidence about the relativity of Mrs. Clinton's involvement and Mr. Foster's involvement in the decision-making process.
As we understood it, the chain of command was essentially from Mrs. Clinton's mouth to Vince's ear to their counterpart at justice, who worked for Mrs. Reno, or Miss Reno, I should say, whose name is escaping me right now.
This is Webster Hubble?
Yes, Webster Hubble.
Webster Hubble essentially was giving the President's wishes and desires, framing that in that context, to the Deputy Director of the FBI.
Mr. Sessions was out of the picture at that time, but in the meantime, the Deputy Director was in essence in charge, and he then in turn was passing on his directives to the people in the field, Jeff Jamar and Dick Rogers and the company.
Now, we know that they lied, the ATF, in order to get National Guard helicopters for use against the Davidians during the initial raid, using the drug war as a loophole in the Posse Comitatus statutes, but is it a fact that Delta Force was there at Waco?
Yes, those facts were established during the course of the civil trial brought by the Davidians against the federal government for a wrongful death suit.
In mid-March 1993, I attended a senior executive staff meeting at CIA headquarters, and it involved senior agency management along with the liaison officers from the U.S. military, in particular from Delta Group.
The briefing centered on Delta's operations in Waco, Texas.
Originally, I was told that there was just going to be one or two Delta personnel there as observers, but during the briefing, it was mentioned that there was over 10 Delta operators at Waco, Texas, and they were not there merely as observers, but would be participating in any type of operational or tactical effort against the Branch Davidians.
And subsequently, in the Danforth investigation that our second film had been the cause of, in finding the evidence in the evidence lockers that indeed put a lie to the fact that the FBI said they had used no pyrotechnics, or that they did not possess the infrared footage from earlier in the morning and later in the afternoon, that set a number of things in motion, not the least of which was the appointment of Jack Danforth, former Senator Jack Danforth, as the special counsel to investigate the Waco affair.
Actually, I think he did an admirable job of covering up the facts, which apparently was his job, and we deal with that in the third film, the FLIR project.
Okay, now let me hold you right there.
When you talk about the incendiary rounds that you proved in your second film...
I don't use the words incendiary.
That's a different kind of device than a pyrotechnic device.
Okay, these pyrotechnic rounds.
The picture from TV and the newspaper is one of these rounds in a puddle of water, and the Danforth investigation conclusion was they shot two of these into puddles of water far from the house, hours and hours and hours before the fire broke out.
Is that correct or not?
Well, that's a misconception.
The two projectiles that...
First of all, they couldn't find the projectiles in the evidence chain.
They had been removed, and nobody had ever found them.
All we had was photographs.
The two projectiles were military CS gas rounds, M-528s, I believe they were, and they were fired not into puddles.
They were fired at the roof of the storm shelter to the north end of the building.
And they found their way.
They did not penetrate the roof, and they wound up skipping off into the dirt with water puddles.
And best as we can tell, they were fired.
Those two projectiles were fired earlier in the morning before the fire started.
However, it's interesting to note that Mr. Danforth's report totally ignored the fact that seven or eight of the DevTech 25 hand-placed flashbang grenades, which are known firestarters, were found inside the building in the burned rubble, some of them more intact than others, but they were found near or at the points of origin of the fire starting.
Branch Davidians didn't have any flashbangs.
They had possession of one that was noted by one of the attorneys.
They didn't have possession of six.
The other problem is the other types of projectiles, which were 40-millimeter penetrating stun munitions.
Interestingly enough, those devices were manufactured by one of the experts that we hired to go in and take a look at the evidence chain.
And he had sold them to the FBI agent in charge of those devices in the hostage rescue team.
And when he examined them in the aftermath, he noted that they had been tampered with and that apparently the charges that had been carried by them in order to cause a detonation and a flash and a bang had been increased substantially.
So they became even more dangerous than they already were because a penetrating stun munition is something you fire through a wall.
As it passes through the wall, it detonates.
You have no idea, unless your name is Superman, what's on the other side of that wall or window or door.
And, you know, they are definite fire starters.
And they too have been found to have gone through the building.
They penetrated a little too well.
And then there's no telling how many of these devices may have been actually used because the government's not fessing up.
And Mr. Danforth made sure that those devices were not dealt with at all.
They were totally ignored in the reviews of the reports that he wrote.
Now, there's other problems too.
For example, the government and Mr. Danforth's substantiation said, oh, well, the CS gas and methylene chloride carrier agent were non-flammable.
Matter of fact, according to Mr. Danforth, you could take a cup of methylene chloride and put a lit match out in it.
It would douse the flame.
Well, that's true.
I did that.
We did some experiments when we did the FLIR project with methylene chloride because we had the opportunity of having a number of different types of firearms available during this testing period.
And now, again, let me stop right there again.
The methylene chloride was the chemical that they mixed the tear gas, the CS gas, with in order to deploy it inside the house that morning.
Let me explain what methylene chloride is.
It's a paint stripper and it has very much the qualities of acetone.
And so you would take the dust particulate, which is what CS is.
It's not a gas.
It's a powder, a very fine powder.
And you would mix it with the methylene chloride.
The methylene chloride with the CS gas particulate suspended in it was in high pressure bottles mounted on the ends of the booms of the tanks.
And they were pressurized with, what was it, CO2.
I think that's CO2.
Carbon dioxide?
Yeah, perhaps.
And in order to force the materials out through the nozzle of the bottles under pressure.
Well, that would spray into a room.
For example, the last injection of CS gas, second story window on the southeast corner of the building.
We have that on video, infrared video taken from the FLIR video.
And you see the tanks emptying because as they do, they get cold like any CO2-contained bottle.
You release the stuff like in a fire extinguisher and the bottle gets cold.
Well, cold shows up on FLIR video as black.
So all of a sudden, you see these black objects appear on the end of the tank boom.
And that means the material has been injected into the room.
Well, at that particular point, we looked through a number of FBI 302 reports, which were reports from their various agents that were stationed around the corner of the building down there.
We saw the infrared video as to what they thought happened.
They claimed that the first fire was started by the Branch Davidians in the upstairs bedroom at the southeast corner.
I would agree with that, but slight variance.
The materials were sprayed into the room.
They were still very dense in the room when shots were heard fired.
And an individual was seen shooting in that room at the retreating tank.
It was seen by several different FBI agents.
Well, at that particular point, we were intrigued with the idea of, gee, could methylene chloride be ignited in the open atmosphere by a muzzle flash from an automatic weapon like an AK-47 or an M16?
So we tried it at our test facilities down in Tucson.
And lo and behold, we had spray bottles that we sprayed the methylene chloride mixture, just pure methylene chloride, into the atmosphere in front of the muzzle of the gun, about 14 inches in front of it, and fired the weapon.
And what we found was that the muzzle flash ignited the methylene chloride in the atmosphere in a brilliant ball of blue flame, very hot.
So there was a flash fire, and that in turn ignited wallpaper, window coverings, bedding, carpeting, anything else in the room that could burn was ignited in a flash fire from the gunfire that was shot through the cloud of methylene chloride at the retreating tank.
So you believe that that's how the first fire started, a Branch Davidian accidentally started it shooting at a tank that had just sprayed him with chemical weapons?
With the methylene chloride CS gas mixture, yeah.
And here's the deal.
You can take that cup of methylene chloride that I mentioned earlier that you could put a match out in, you take that same cup of methylene chloride and throw it on the floor in a small bedroom, you know, a 10x12 or 10x11 bedroom like the one I'm sitting in right now, and you toss it down on the floor and come back in a couple of minutes and throw a match in the room and there'll be a flash fire.
Because the vapors are produced from the process by which the methylene chloride evaporates, and the way it's designed to work is, and it works very efficiently, the methylene chloride evaporates, leaving the CS gas particles suspended in the air.
And that is the job that is supposed to do.
It then just irritates your nasal passages and your throat and your eyes and it's pretty nasty stuff.
Do you have proof that the FBI knew that this stuff was flammable?
Let's put it this way.
Their experts knew everything there was to know about methylene chloride and the CS gas.
When CS gas burns, of course, one of the primary byproducts is hydrogen cyanide.
Well, hydrogen cyanide is what's produced when materials are dropped under the chair in a gas chamber in San Quentin, California, for example, and that's how they execute criminals with hydrogen cyanide.
Do I have proof that the FBI knew what the consequences of the use of that material?
Not to the satisfaction of a judge and jury in a homicide case.
In terms of a wrongful death case, you betcha.
In terms of up to and including the preponderance of evidence, yes.
And now let's go back to this hydrogen cyanide for a moment.
You say once you burn this methylene chloride CS mixture, you get hydrogen cyanide, the stuff they use in the gas chamber.
Amongst other things, yeah.
In your video, I think probably in both of them, but I know in Waco, the rules of engagement, you show pictures of women and children whose bodies are bowed backwards.
There is a shot of a young child, a female, who is presenting the rigors of hydrogen cyanide poisoning.
The muscles contract and spasm, and to the extent that is the expert that we had from the, I believe, I can't remember, Federal Drug Administration, I believe it was, said, told us on camera that the reason that they strapped down prisoners in the gas chamber is not so they won't escape, but rather so that the people watching the execution won't see the contortions that the body goes through, even to the extent of breaking bones, that the muscle spasms are so violent that that's what occurs.
Well, this one young girl was found in the bunker where there was an overabundance of CS gas and methylene chloride, and when that stuff burned, if the youngster was in the bunker while she was still alive, she would have inhaled this material from the gas being burned, and her body would have spasmed and performed as it did in the indications of this photograph.
If she'd already been dead, she wouldn't have contorted that way.
She wouldn't have been able to inhale and have the materials affect her.
Well, her back appears broken in the footage.
I would have to go back and look at the medical examiner's report to determine if there had been broken bones.
It was a very difficult CSI autopsy experience for the folks that actually did the work because the bodies, first of all, the bodies recovered from that room had been subjected to the rigors of the CS gas.
We knew that protection was in there.
We believed we finally were able to make entry into that compound and were able to insert gas inside that protective area.
We put massive gas in there.
Their gas mass by that time had to be failing.
We thought that their instincts, their motherly instincts would take place and that they would want their children out of that environment.
It appears they don't care that much about their children, which is unfortunate.
Suffocation and the burning of the CS, which generated the hydrogen cyanide then.
The next effect, of course, would have begun to be the heat from the fire itself, but probably more to the point, there was a large explosive device, a high explosive, that was detonated on the roof of the bunker directly over the location where the women and the children were inside this concrete room.
Okay.
Now, hold it right there.
Let me stop you.
If people in the audience, if you'll imagine pictures of the Waco so-called compound from during that siege, you'll remember there's one part of it that was three stories high, a kind of...
It was four stories.
Was it four stories?
It was a square kind of tower.
A central tower.
And the ground floor of that tower was the old Seventh-day Adventist church records vault.
It had a very narrow opening about 20, 24, 26 inches.
That was the entry door into the church records vault.
It was constructed out of reinforced concrete, reinforced steel and concrete.
It was six to eight inches thick.
The walls were in the roof.
It was a pretty sturdy structure.
And it was in that structure that David Koresh and Steve Schneider had determined in mid-morning that the women and the children should go there because the CS gas was not reaching that location.
And the children were upstairs at that time and they were suffering considerably.
So Schneider and Koresh moved the children and the women downstairs into that so-called bunker or church vault.
And that's where they were when, during the course of the morning, we believe, a team of individuals probably made up of Delta Force individuals along with the HRT entered the structure.
We can pinpoint a time because we could see the tank that was apparently carrying these individuals go into the interior of the building just precisely at that location.
It stayed inside for 10 or 11 minutes, at which time we thought they would be offloading personnel into the interior of the building.
We couldn't see that happen because they were inside the structure.
And the geography of the structure was such to where it would have been perfect to exit the vehicle out through the turret hatch.
It would have been above the baseboards of the second story floor, first story ceiling, and the tank tore that up as it went inside.
And they could have gotten out and placed the device on the roof of the bunker.
Now, why would they want to do that?
Here's the reason why.
In other documents that we obtained through record searches, we found that the commander of Delta Force had written a report to his commanding officer telling him about a meeting that he had had with Janet Reno and the FBI.
And this was in Washington, D.C.
And he and General Schumacher, who, gee, up until recently was the chief of staff, the joint chief of staff of the United States military, talked about their experiences with the FBI.
And the FBI asked them, well, what would they do if this was their operation, that is Delta's operation?
And Delta very candidly said, well, we would cut the head off the snake, we would locate the leaders of this group, we would kill them or take them prisoner, and thus simply cutting the head off the snake, taking the leadership away from the rest of the group, they would come out peaceably.
Well, with that in mind, one has to wonder how they might accomplish that.
And so the evidence shows us that a group placed a device on the roof of the concrete bunker within the interior of the wood frame structure.
And we can show you precisely when and how by way of the movements, the videotape from the flare showing the tank's activities.
The tank went inside, was there for 11 minutes, backed out and sat outside that location.
The boom carrying the CS gas was rearward and not facing inwards, so they weren't doing a gassing operation.
And it also opens up the interior geography of the tank, the M728.
What was that called?
Well, the tank itself was a patent chassis, and when the turret is in that position, there's a lot more room in the interior of the vehicle up from the main hull area all the way up through the turret for a number of individuals to be.
And that would be the only configuration if you went in as the FBI had been going in with the boom facing forward off the rear of the turret to insert gas into the building, which was ostensibly the explanation given as to what they were doing.
There wouldn't be enough room because of the configuration of the turret and hull when it made it up.
But when you had the gun facing forward, there was plenty of room inside.
And we suspect that's when the individuals were placed in the interior of the building, and the device was placed on the roof of the bunker with an eye towards killing Koresh and his lieutenant, Steve Schneider, in the bunker, because that's where the FBI knew they were up until the time that Schneider and Koresh evacuated that location and brought the women and children down and put them inside.
Okay.
Now, Mike, anybody ought to be able to Google images and find pictures of the hole in the ceiling from that concrete room.
Do you have expert testimony and so forth saying that that's definitely from a bomb that was set off there?
When you watch the film, we'll have a number of explosives people testifying.
One of them is Dr. Fred Whitehurst.
He was the chief of explosives for the FBI crime lab for a number of years, including the time of the Waco incident and the time of the World Trade Center bombing in February of 93.
Fred has spent a lot of time and effort.
Actually, Fred was the narrator for the second film.
And then we have another expert.
He was the gentleman who manufactured the explosive devices for the FBI for their use for the penetrating stun munitions.
He has a lot of background in explosives.
And then we have a tactical explosives expert, Steve Berry, who actually was a member of Delta Force and knew some of the individuals that had been involved in this program at Waco.
And he also gave us testimony and descriptions.
Rather than risk your own people going in there and trying to shoot it out with them, it's a standard tactic in city fighting and military operations that built up terrain to use explosives in this manner to kill people in the targeted room that you're going to attack.
We also had an explosives expert from the CIA, Mr. Gene Cohen, who also examined the materials.
We didn't just examine the materials.
We went out and did excavations looking for the parts that were seen in the photographs made by the Texas Rangers of the concrete room.
And we found everything, all the parts of the concrete room had been broken up, but we found everything but that section of the roof that had the hole in it.
The hole was very symmetrical.
It was round with tapered-in edges, about 20, 21 inches across.
And interestingly enough, it showed the effects of a breaching charge, which was designed to blow a hole down through the concrete, but not necessarily strong enough to cut the steel reinforcing bars.
They were blown down and in, but had not been cut and separated.
And the room itself and the photographs of it, etc., that we were able to examine, basically showed that the overpressure from the explosion was designed to kill anything in the room.
And it indeed did that.
It blew a stainless steel refrigerator, which was just offset of the entry hole, the breach hole that was blown into it, had been melted.
And it takes over 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit to melt stainless steel.
But it had blast effect indicators showing that it had been crushed down and in, but it also had been melted, literally melted, which would indicate not only a high pressure explosive, but something that burned extremely hot.
The materials being blown down inside basically tore the Branch Davidian women and children apart.
The small children that were directly under the blast were severed into small pieces.
The damage to the stainless steel refrigerator, which appears to have been under the blast holes consistent with the shape charge, and the blast being directed downward into the room, in this enclosed concrete room, would very likely cause some seam rupture and create a huge overpressure inside the room that would pretty much kill everybody in there.
Anybody who was under this device when it was blown would have been horribly mangled, probably dismembered, pretty much like being thrown into a grain thrusher.
We recovered photographs made by the FBI of little teeny shoes with the feet and ankles still in it and nothing but a shinbone attached above that.
And things of that nature would be extremely gruesome.
One can only hope that it was quick.
But that a high explosive device that was not in the possession, as admitted to by the ATF and the FBI, the Branch Davidians had no high order explosives.
They had smokeless gunpowder and black powder, neither of which, in the forms that they had it in, such as packed into World War II grenade hulls, would have done any damage to the roof of the bunker, much less blown a concerted hole of 21 inches across completely through the top of that 6 to 8 inches thick steel reinforced concrete.
Okay, now I'm going to try to avoid technical terms, but you've said that some devices that burn hot in one way or another have been found at the origins of some of the fires, but also that you believe the first fire was accidentally started by a Branch Davidian shooting at a tank.
So please fill in the details, the rest of the fires, where they started and how you believe that they started that day.
Well, it appears that there were four points of origin.
The first one, in sequence, was at the southeast corner, second story bedroom, and we've described that as being an accidental ignition of the methylene chloride CS gas particulate in the room by a Branch Davidian firing at a tank as it exited the area.
The next location in order of sequencing would have been the dining room area at the back of the building, including the area at the base of the four-story tower from the back.
That particular area is indicated by both the physical evidence found at that location after the fire, and eyewitness accounts appears to have been pyrotechnic devices used by the U.S. government.
And the remains of those devices were found at that location, at that point of origin.
You have to keep in mind that throughout all this, the Branch Davidians were spreading fuel, Coleman fuel and kerosene, on hay bales inside the building at strategic locations, generally, at least in an upper-story room, in an attempt, a misguided attempt, to trap the tanks if they came into the building in a fiery hellstorm that they felt, from a religious perspective, that God would protect them, but God would allow their enemies to burn.
Totally misguided.
You believe that they were truly that sincere in their beliefs, that they could use fire against tanks, but God would protect them from the fire.
If the tanks came into their home, that by using fire to trap the tanks, tank traps, it would stop the tanks, but they would be protected.
That was their belief.
And there was some scriptural basis for that, although I think it indeed was misguided.
But nevertheless, there were some of these locations around the building that had been set up this way, with bales of hay that had kerosene or Coleman fuel soaked on them.
There were some in the chapel.
There were some in the upper-story, some of the upper-story bedrooms.
And there didn't appear to be any in the area of the dining room.
However, the second fire in the sequence appears to have started in the dining room area, at the back of the four-story tower.
And what's interesting is that when you watch the development of the fire at that location, it appears to be coming, originating at the base of the tower and the room next to it, which was the dining room area.
And it doesn't appear to be coming from inside the building, but rather outside of the building in terms of fire development in the video and materials that we've been able to watch.
At that particular point, the next fire that started appears to have started a little ways down the timeline, the third fire in the gymnasium area, which by now has been crushed, and about half of it dropped to the ground and ground into rubble and destroyed.
That appears, according to our FLIR expert, he sees what he believes to be a Mark 19 40mm automatic grenade launcher being fired beyond the back of the gymnasium area.
Into the gymnasium area, he's pointed out the impact of some of these explosive rounds, and the fire starts in the gymnasium.
That fire was witnessed by two individuals, David Thibodeau and, oh boy, you remembered last time, what was the British guy's name?
I'm sorry, I don't remember.
Your memory isn't as good as mine, then.
Gee whiz.
Well, David Thibodeau and...
It's the guy that they used the fire hoses on in jail, right?
The little, very soft-spoken, kind of dark-skinned guy?
No, that's Livingston Fagan.
Oh, that's who I was thinking of, was Livingston Fagan.
No, not Livingston Fagan.
This was, well, we'll try and remember the gentleman's name.
He's in the first film.
We interviewed him in England.
He saw a fireball coming from the back of the gymnasium, or the remains of the gymnasium, coming forward towards the chapel area.
And at that particular time, David Thibodeau was upstairs in the loft area above the chapel, and also saw this fireball coming in through the building.
And it made an east-west trajectory.
It moved in front of him across the rafters area above the chapel.
And so, you know, these fireballs are...
The best explanation we have is that it's basically the methylene chloride and CS gas had accumulated in certain parts of the building.
And once a pyrotechnic device had been employed at the rear of the gymnasium, that initiated the ignition of this material.
And it roared through the building, and the building itself was a fire trap, no doubt about it.
Well, the fourth and last location was the chapel, the southernly wall of the chapel.
And there is reason to believe that one or more Branch Davidians initiated a fire at that location.
The other fires had already been underway, and there was smoke in the building.
And that's not to say that all the Davidians were involved in setting fires.
They weren't.
There were a few people, and it appears most of them, if not all of them, died during the course of the blaze.
But nevertheless, yes, there was some Branch Davidian activity of starting a fire, one or more.
But at this point, I think I'm comfortable with acknowledging the first source as being accidental ignition of the CS methylene chloride mixture, a pyrotechnic device at the back of the dining room area, a pyrotechnic or more, one or more pyrotechnic devices at the back of the gymnasium area.
And those pyrotechnic devices in the gymnasium area may well have been high explosive devices, as well as pyrotechnic in nature.
And then the final effort appears to have taken place.
I don't know what the tool that was used to ignition or ignite the fire in the chapel area, but that one appears to have been handset by a Davidian, one or more.
And now even in that case, you say that this was to fight against the tanks.
They thought that God would protect them like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
Not that this was some sort of mass suicide like Jim Jones and the Kool-Aid.
No.
Actually, the vast majority of the Davidians were shocked and surprised that they had no idea there was going to be fire.
The only ones that appeared to have really known what was going on and helped prepare the use of fire in the building, they were all killed.
Koresh, Schneider, and some of the others, Scott Sanobbe, and so on and so forth.
Those were folks that were actively fighting against the FBI.
They had guns.
They were shooting both against the ATF in February and against the tanks in April.
But in the end, one could argue successfully, I think, that the Branch Davidians were simply trying to protect themselves on both occasions, February 28th and April 19th.
Unfortunately, the same can't be said for the ATF or the FBI and the Delta Force slash HRT operators.
But let's talk about that forward-looking infrared, otherwise known as FLIR, footage from the FBI's plane that was flying overhead and from any other sources you have.
And what's revealed in that footage, Mike?
Well, the FBI claimed all along that the Branch Davidians, the only gunfire that took place that day was fired by the Branch Davidians.
But when you look at the forward-looking infrared footage, it's not radar as some people say.
It's forward-looking infrared.
What it does is it measures temperatures.
And when an M-16 is fired using the kind of ammunition that the FBI was using that day, it will leave a muzzle flash imprint on the film that looks very much like what one would expect a muzzle flash to look like.
We've had dozens of experts of firearms and infrared look at the material that the FBI made that day.
And they said conclusively to a man that it was gunfire.
Now these images, you can see gunfire coming from the building going out.
But most importantly, you can also see images of individuals and gunfire being fired from positions around the outside of the building into the building.
What we have is we have men firing automatic weapons.
And they're firing into the burning building.
And like some sort of a cowboy movie, they're retreating down the building and firing as they're retreating.
I cannot remember something more sickening that I had to do to witness this.
I stopped counting after about 62 individual shots.
They open up with automatic gunfire.
We've measured the actual time of the individual flashes.
And they occur at a fraction of a second.
In some cases, a thirtieth of a second.
There is absolutely nothing in nature that can cause thermal flashes to occur in a thirtieth of a second.
Okay, now if I can just add my own little non-expert opinion on this myself here.
It seems to me that in your first movie, Waco, The Rules of Engagement, you can pretty much see at the back of the gymnasium two little black dots as though they've just been, say for example, inside an air-conditioned tank, get out of a tank, and then you see what, as you say, appear to be muzzle flashes coming.
They took shelter behind the tank and then fired into the building ahead of the tank.
And then you have, I believe, the very same clip in the second movie, Waco, A New Revelation, but in this case it's much better footage.
And you can definitely see these aren't just black ovals, these are men who get out of this tank and hide behind it.
Ask me why the footage is better.
Why is the footage better?
Mike McNulty who produced Waco, The Rules of Engagement, Waco, A New Revelation, and The Fleer Project.
Why is the footage better in the second movie?
The footage that we received in the making of the first film was a very poor VHS copy of the original that was produced for the criminal defense attorneys of the Branch Davidians.
It was deprecated and dummied down, if you will, in terms of the detail, by virtue of the, we had the original cassette of film, of videotape, that was given to the attorneys.
And we made digital copies of it, and that was the best we had at the time.
When we got to the point where I gained access to the evidence locker, one of the first things that happened was, here was a, what's the beer from Mexico that everybody likes?
Dos Equis?
No, not Dos Equis.
Corona?
Corona, you got it.
A Corona beer case full of videotape material that was super VHS and very high quality that the Texas Rangers had made.
And now this is at the DPS headquarters about two or three stone throws from where I sit right now, is that right?
There you go, in Austin, right.
And the first thing that happened was the lights weren't on and I started to go into the evidence locker area and tripped over this cut down Corona beer box full of videotapes, sitting on the floor right in the middle of the entryway.
Like, you know, like maybe I was supposed to find it.
Yeah, sounds like someone may have left it there for you to find it.
Maybe, but that led to, I mean, they were very embarrassed that that was the first thing that I found.
So I demanded, I demanded digital copies of all the material in that box.
And I also demanded digital copies of the, all of the infrared material that day.
Well, strangely enough, that particular request, we only got the central section that showed the gun battle and the burn down of the, of the building.
Time wise, it would have been about nine 30 in the morning until about two o'clock or so.
There was more tape before that and after that, and they would not give it up.
They denied that it existed, so on and so forth.
So finally, through the help of Janet Reno, sending the US Marshals to the Quantico, Virginia headquarters, the HRT, we dug up the other tapes.
So those tapes then were duplicated and we had clean digital copies of the infrared material for the first time, which you could see a whole lot more detail than you could with the material we used a couple of years earlier in the first film.
And that's why it does look better because it is better.
They're digital mastered copies off of the original pieces of material.
Which is why I can see that these are not just ovals.
These are men getting out of a tank, hiding behind it and firing automatic weapons towards that house.
Well, one of the things we did in the FLIR project was we hired a group of photo analysts from the CIA, formerly with the CIA.
One of the gentlemen happens to have been the fella that uncovered the Cuban missiles in Cuba during the Cuban missile crisis in the Kennedy administration.
They examined the material.
They looked at still photographs made by the FBI, regular color still photographs.
And based on what they saw happening with the infrared, they located pictures, photographs of the individuals in the rubble.
They're not as sharply focused as I would like them to be.
They're 35 millimeter stills taken from a small aircraft flying over the compound during the course of events.
But they're clear enough to where you can see them change shape in a sequence.
And their shapes are that of human beings.
And they are in the precise locations where the muzzle flashes come from.
Right.
And now the reason that you had to go back and make this movie, The FLIR Project, and assemble this whole entire extra group of experts than you had already had in your first two films looking at this is because of this Danforth investigation and the test that he did at Fort Hood.
Well, the alleged test.
You've accused him of staging a cover up there.
In what way did he manipulate those tests that they were below your satisfaction?
Well, you had to use the correct weapons of a certain barrel length and a certain firing rate and a specific kind of ammunition that the FBI used that day.
It was not military ball ammunition.
It was federal commercial grade ammunition that had a different burn rate.
And it would, regardless of what we did in terms of flash hiders or muzzle flash hiders on the guns or the barrel lengths to a large degree, when you use the type of guns that were specifically seen in the videography made by the Delta Force and HRT operators by the Texas Rangers in the immediate aftermath, it was very easy to identify the specific types of weapons.
And they were generally M4 carbines, early versions of M4 carbines with short barrels.
And they used the standard FBI issue ammunition, which was the federal commercial brand.
When you use those two components, the commercial ammunition and the short barrel automatic weapons, you would get a distinct muzzle flash image on the FLIR tape.
If you use the U.S. military ball ammunition, which is designed to reduce the muzzle flash, and you use the long barreled M16A1sA2s, the muzzle flash was reduced substantially, not completely, but substantially.
So they used the U.S. military full barrel length, at least 20 inch barrels versus a 12 or 14 inch barrel, M16A1sA2s or A1A2s, and they used the military ammunition.
Well, that produced their desired result, but it was grossly inaccurate in terms of what type of weapon and what type of ammunition was actually used that day.
Well, and if I remember right from the Dallas Morning News, didn't they spray the ground with water to make sure there was no unnecessary dust in the air?
No, actually you remember that from the film footage.
You see, Danforth was so confident in his cover-up that he allowed us to have a whole series of photographs of the whole scene being set up.
And one of the things they did, ostensibly to make the ground more contrasty, which was not true, it hid individuals.
In the infrared video material made by the FBI on April 19th, you could see individuals in the infrared material.
In the test material produced by Danforth's team, you couldn't see the individuals.
And we wondered why about that.
Well, for one thing, the individuals in Danforth's test material were using, you have to remember this is years later, were using specially treated uniforms, for one thing, that actually reduces the infrared signature of a human being.
Number two, they sprayed the ground heavily with water the night before, and they covered it with a tarp, which changed the background contrast substantially compared to what had happened and what the reality, the geographical and geological reality was at Waco on April 19th.
So those factors changed substantially the images that were seen.
The images that were seen fit the story the FBI had told.
However, when we did our test, that's what the FLIR project was about.
We had people in the proper uniforms, we had them, per what the FBI and HRT and Delta were actually wearing that day, the proper weapons, the proper ammunition, and surprise, surprise, we could see, we could duplicate the flash images from muzzle flashes and the images of individuals on the ground, just like was seen in the FBI footage of April 19th.
And now did you use 1993 cameras in your tests?
Our camera was, as far as we can determine, identical to the camera that was used by the FLIR aircraft that day.
What I'd like to do is offer the FLIR project being available on VHS by sending a cash check or money order to the following address, that'll be COPS Productions, 1334 6th Street SE, that SE is very important, 6th, number 6th Street SE SE, Loveland, CO 80537, the FLIR project is, let's see, $9.95 plus $4 shipping and handling.
And we'll send that back to you by priority mail, and that is available through COPS Productions.
And now do you have also for sale Waco the Rules of Engagement and Waco a New Revelation?
I do not sell Waco the Rules of Engagement, that's handled by the people who put the film up, and you can Google that and find it on the internet and order it that way.
However, for Waco a New Revelation, the only location that it's available at is through the production company MGA Films.
And people can order it by calling 800-277-9802, that's 800-277-9802.
Waco a New Revelation is available on DVD with a producer's narrative as an extra bit of goody on the DVD.
And I'll put the address and the phone number up on my blog at thestressblog.com on this entry for anybody who wants to look into these videos.
Okay, the DVD is available at $14.95 plus $5.95 shipping and handling from MGA Films at the 800 number given, that's 800-277-9802.
The VHS version is $9.95 plus $5.95 shipping and handling, so they're very reasonably priced.
And again, why is this important today?
Who gives a darn?
Because Hillary Clinton's running for office, that's why.
Hillary Clinton's running for office for President of the United States, and if this is what she did as the co-president, imagine what she's capable of as being the actual President of the United States.
Right, and even if she had retired, it's still not okay to use the army to murder American citizens, or even cops.
Well, the bottom line is that there is no statute of limitations on homicide, and whether it was accidental homicide or it was intended homicide, the results were still the same.
There is no statute of limitations, so that issue will remain open until someday it's dealt with effectively in a court of law, which I would hope that it would be.
I think the issue is, all right, there's the allegations of what Hillary did.
In order for those to be responded to adequately, she's going to have to produce the documents that her people stole from Vince Foster's office and gave to her, and she's the last one known to have them in her possession.
The other issues need to be dealt with by somebody, whether it's a U.S. attorney in Texas, the Texas Rangers, or the Congress of the United States, which I have my doubts about their capability, or the U.S. Attorney General's office.
And the issue is, did the Branch Davidians die at the hands of others and not by their own hands?
There were 27 people that were found shot to death inside the building, and what's interesting is no ballistics checks were ever done.
Could ballistics checks be done now by comparing weapons that were held by the FBI and Delta Force team?
I don't know.
Some of the people that were involved in the operation on April the 19th, in terms of combat applications group personnel, unfortunately were sent to a place called Somalia, Mogadishu, in October of 1993.
And a number of them were killed in action that you all will remember as the Black Hawk Down incident.
Those were the very same Delta operators?
They were the same folks.
Now, it's interesting that there was a dispute between the President of the United States and the Army, relative to the Army had requested that Delta Force and the other operators there, the Rangers, be given armor tanks.
Mr. Clinton refused to do that because he felt that tanks weren't necessary for a nation-building operation.
Obviously, the Black Hawk Down shooting incident was not exactly a nation-building incident, but the fact that they didn't have armor actually cost the lives of a number of those Delta Force operators.
Which, when you consider the history of the Clinton administration, was rather convenient that those people that would have witnessed what went on at Waco are now conveniently dead.
Yeah, well, there's a little bit of that in the Clinton Times, and it's also interesting about their mindset that tanks are perfectly acceptable for use against Texans, but not in a nation-building operation in Somalia.
Gee, never thought of it that way, but that's a very good observation.
Yeah, how do you like that?
Now, I remember you mentioned the Texas Rangers perhaps ought to do something about this.
They did.
They began a real investigation, and they were putting what I deemed to be as good as I could hope for in terms of government agencies investigating each other and such, putting the information up on their website where I could read it regularly.
And they were really getting to the bottom of things until the Danforth investigation began, and then Governor George W. Bush ordered the Texas Rangers to shut their investigation down and defer to Danforth and his cover-up.
And, let's see, that was sometime before George became president of the United States, so he was still governor of Texas, and the fact of the matter is that one has to wonder, you know, I was told by some people that are very knowledgeable about what goes on in Washington that if I wanted to understand how the investigation was going to go, early stages of the Danforth investigation, all I had to do was show up at the White House on a Saturday morning, mid-morning, and stand there at the gate and watch who goes in to pick up the president and go play golf with him.
And that person was Jack Danforth.
So the relationship between Danforth and the president and the interest of the president being served first and foremost in the outcome of the investigation leads one to believe that Mr. Danforth wasn't exactly on the up and up in terms of finding the truth, or at least a version of the truth that had some semblance of the truth.
Yeah, and it makes you also wonder who George Bush Jr., Governor Bush, was deferring to when he decided that, I mean, there's, I don't believe anything in the law that would say that just because the Justice Department has appointed a special investigator, you couldn't call him a prosecutor, but Danforth is special investigator, just because that's happened, there's no call to shut down the Texas Rangers when they're in the middle of doing such a fine job themselves.
Well, I suspect that the Reno Justice Department made that demand on the governor that state law enforcement stand down.
And would that be out of the ordinary for such a situation?
No.
But does it serve justice having the government investigate itself, as opposed to an independent body like the Texas Rangers, and the Texas Attorney General?
No, it doesn't serve justice at all.
And it didn't.
But the problem would be, the Texas Rangers, the two individuals that conducted those investigations are seen in the Waco, a new revelation film, we interviewed them.
At the time, one was still a Texas Ranger, the other one had just retired, and boy, both of them were really unhappy, and you really have to pay attention to what they say in the film, because they say they were flat out lied to by federal agents left and right.
And you know, this is something I was going to mention in terms of Stephen Berry and Gene Cullen, who are featured in Waco, a new revelation, that both of them provide hearsay that Delta Force agents had admitted to them that they had in fact been, I think the quote was, pulling triggers that day at Waco.
Well, I don't know how much of it could be construed as hearsay.
In a case, but in a courtroom, before a judge and jury, their testimony was qualified expert eyewitness testimony, and it was firsthand.
They talked to those that were there.
Oh, right.
So, as to being hearsay, I think it rises above that level.
Yeah, it's hearsay when I repeat it.
It's hearsay when I repeat it.
When they repeat it, they're saying, hey, this guy admitted to me he was guilty.
That's testimony.
Yeah, the Delta Force operator told me on such a date, such a place, such and such a time that this was what they did.
Right.
Yeah, that's perfectly admissible.
What am I talking about?
I don't know.
I did talk to some combat applications group guys, and they did confirm that, yes, portions of the B squadron were there pulling triggers.
Approximately a year after the Waco incident, I was deployed overseas in Europe, and I had the chance to meet some of the Delta operators that I had met on previous assignments.
They had told me on several different occasions during my meetings with them in Europe that not only were they forwardly deployed at Waco, Texas, but they were actually involved in a gunfight with the Branch Davidians.
How many Branch Davidians are still in prison?
At this point, they're all out now.
Oh, really, all of them finally are?
All of them, including Livingston Fagan.
They are now out, but it's been 14 years.
Was the last one just recently released?
Yes, Livingston Fagan.
And that was when, like last year?
No, just a few months ago, as far as I know.
Oh, goodness.
Yeah, so, yeah.
And then there was a bunch that were released around the first of the year as well, first of 2007.
All right, well, you know, if you still have a little bit of time, let's go ahead and go back to the first day and who shot first.
Is there a way to prove who shot first, whether the ATF was ambushed by this devil cult?
Well, it was pretty clearly established in testimony given by ATF agents during the civil trial that Agent Ballesteros, leading the entry team at the front door.
First of all, one of the team leaders was supposed to have the affidavit and the search warrant with him.
He was cowering on the floor of the second pickup truck, and the warrant was on the dashboard being shot full of holes.
But Agent Ballesteros was leading the entry team at the front door, and he had a bunch of female agents with him who had fire extinguishers that were supposed to deal with the Malamute dogs that were kept in a pin adjacent to the front porch.
And they had problems with the dogs.
They weren't taking no for an answer, and the CO2 bottle, fire bottle extinguishers weren't having the desired effect.
So in order to fend off the dogs, when Koresh stepped through the door at that particular moment, the dogs became more aggressive, as dogs do when the boss shows up.
And they were putting on a good show for the boss.
At that particular point in time, moment in time, according to Ballesteros, in his testimony during the civil trial, he drew his service sidearm and fired at the dogs.
Those ostensibly were the first shots fired, and then you have to imagine there's all these people standing around with guns in their hands, ATF agents and Branch Davidians, and they hear gunfire at the front door.
Koresh is at the front door.
When those shots were fired, he ducked back in, but as he did, he was hit in the wrist by gunfire from ATF agents.
At that point, the Branch Davidians jumped in as well, and everybody started firing from inside the building and from outside the building.
But as far as we can tell, the first shots were fired by the ATF when they shot the dogs.
You can hear it on the audio section of the tape, and that was it.
Alright, now this is a miscellaneous question here, and I'll actually go after this one, Mike, but I've always wondered about this.
There's footage from the day of the raid with three or four ATF agents on the roof.
The chapel roof.
The chapel roof, right, and it looks like...
They're trying to make entry into Koresh's bedroom.
Right, and then the film cuts, and then apparently they're all dead and one guy escapes down the ladder, but what happened there?
Well, a good book about this was written by my colleague Dave Hardy, who's an attorney out of Tucson, and I'm trying to remember the name of the darn thing.
I think it's still available on the internet.
I'm looking, I'm looking, I'm looking.
Well, just Google Dave Hardy and the name of his book will come up.
I think the name of the book is This Is Not An Assault.
Which is what they announced as they began the assault that morning.
Exactly, this is not an assault.
This is not an assault.
This is not an assault.
The fact is that Dave described some of that, the actual activities.
There may be an opportunity for people to have a more clear view of what actually happened.
I've been working with a gentleman in Los Angeles.
We have written a screenplay, and we're in the midst of going through all the steps of trying to produce it into a feature film that hopefully will be out sometime in 08.
And that film will tell the story, starting with the first day, all the way through the last day of April 19th.
It will focus on David Koresh and Steve Schneider and the FBI agent who was the lead negotiator.
And if we have our druthers and we get the actors we want, it will be well played.
And I believe that the screenplay is very well written.
And we get a lot of information and insight from both FBI 302 reports and in the interviews of ATF agents.
We get a lot of information from Branch Davidian survivors and put the pieces together.
And I think what you're going to find is that the folks that you see in that footage that you mentioned went through the window.
A man named Scott Zenobi met them in the interior and started shooting at them through the walls and the doors.
Many of them were wounded inside that room and managed to escape out the window and roll off the roof.
One of them that you do not see in that footage is he rolls off the roof, but he rolls down the roof on the other side of the building, down into the courtyard between the big four-story tower and the wall of the chapel.
And that's where ultimately he is rescued by the FBI.
They come and get him before he died.
He didn't actually die actually, he was just really seriously wounded.
But he was the team leader of that team that broke in the window and went inside.
He was wounded inside.
And then there were agents that one was killed on the roof when the Davidians started firing back at them up through the roof.
At any rate, I think what you're going to find is that there will be an accurate portrayal in that feature film that we hope to have out to the folks sometime maybe next year.
Well if the last three, Waco the Rules of Engagement, Waco a New Revelation, or The Fleer Project are any indication, I'm sure it will be great.
Well I hope it's a humdinger.
Frankly, people get more out of a popular culture representation, like a feature film, than they do out of the best documentaries.
A lot of people just won't watch a documentary.
Right, and like they did out of the made-for-TV movie During the Siege that portrayed these people as less than human and therefore okay to exterminate.
Well it's interesting, the man who wrote that film is a good friend of mine.
And Phil was much chagrined when he found out what the reality was, because he was fed all of his information by a former ATF agent who was on scene and supposedly telling him the truth.
And that was translated into the film that Phil produced, he wrote and produced, and he was so ashamed of that film that he went down and took the Davidian survivors out to lunch and apologized to them profusely.
He was a key speaker with myself and Dick DeGuerin and some of the others at one of the memorial services during that time period for the Branch Davidians.
And he was much chagrined that he had anything to do with that film.
Yeah, well that'll never stop Court TV from playing reruns of it every April.
Oh no.
And what's interesting is that Wake of the Rules of Engagement has been appearing on the documentary channel about once a week.
And while that is not the producer-director's cut that is appearing, it is what the executive producers have presented.
They added some material to it that neither the producer, neither myself nor the director of the film, Mr. Kizeki, neither one of us approved of that material or think that it should be in it.
So you have to be careful about what you see.
There's some really goofy stuff, I don't know where it came from, but some of the stuff about people making comments about, you know, let's go in and get them and all that kind of stuff, that was never in the original.
But nevertheless, I want to remind people once again that if they would like to have a copy of Waco, A New Revelation, which frankly is the better of all the films in my opinion, they can order it by calling 800-277-9802.
That's 800-277-9802.
The DVD is available at $14.95 plus $5.95 shipping and handling.
The VHS is available at $9.95 plus $5.95 shipping and handling.
For the FLIR project, they can order that from Kops Productions at 1334 Sixth Street, Southeast, Loveland, Colorado, 80537, that's $9.95 plus $4 shipping and handling, that's in VHS.
Alright, and I highly recommend that everybody do just that.
As I said at the beginning of this interview, when I took history in college or even, it may have even been in the psychology, intro to psychology class, here's the little section on cults and David Koresh and his mass suicide by fire followers are the textbook example of what happens when you follow somebody who's just like Charlie Manson.
And that lie is still being perpetuated throughout the society, which means that your job and my job is not done yet, my friend.
No, and I would simply say to folks that if you were the government and you were, you know, people in the FBI, which would be a better story for you, the one that's presented in those representations that you just referred to, or the one that we try and present in Waco, the Rules of Engagement and Waco, A New Revelation?
Yeah, well, the answer's pretty simple, I think.
Yep, it is.
Okay.
Alright, thank you very much for your time.
Thank you very much for having me on.
It was great to have you.
Mike McNulty, producer slash director, researcher, maker, Waco, the Rules of Engagement, Waco, A New Revelation and The Fleer Project.
Thanks again.
You could have arrested me any day as I jog up and down this road, you could have arrested me going to town or going to Walmart, all this stuff you guys may want to avoid and deny.
And I do not appreciate it, and never will I ever appreciate somebody coming here and pushing people around with guns.
Hey, I'll meet you at the doorstep any day, you know, and somebody will get hurt.
If you want to keep playing that game, I'm talking to you.
Somebody's going to get hurt.
Because this ain't America anymore when the ATF has that kind of power to come into anybody's home and kick doors down and things like that.