Jeremy Sapienza, Senior Editor at Antiwar.com, discusses the temptations of liberal interventionism following the Uganda bombings , the wrongheaded conventional wisdom that Somalia’s problems are due to the West’s inattention, terrorism charges leveled at Minnesotan Somali-Americans who allied with Al Shabab to fight the Ethiopian army and why the Uganda bombings are a textbook case of blowback.
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All right, y'all, welcome back to the show.
It's Anti-War Radio on the Liberty Radio Network, LRN.
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I kind of went over time with that Kelly Blahos interview and ran up against time limits and hard breaks and hard unbreaks and so forth.
But here we are.
Jeremy Sapienza, he's one of our two editors at AntiWar.com.
Welcome to the show, Jeremy.
How are you doing, man?
Pretty good.
Thanks for joining us.
Appreciate it.
No problem.
All right, now, you've got all this nonsense going on in East Africa.
Much of it involves the United States of America.
And I know that, let's see, I guess it must be a few months back, I read a really great piece that you wrote on the AntiWar.com blog about Somalia, which means that there's you and there's Chris Floyd in exile over there in the UK.
And I think that's it.
Two American writers who know, oh, Jesse Walker, three American writers who know, care at all about Somalia.
So I thought, hey, great, I'll have, you know, one third of America's expertise on America's intervention in Somalia on the show to talk about it.
That'd be awesome.
Yeah.
Well, well, so there are two big bombings in Uganda and they say Al-Shabaab did it.
What's Al-Shabaab?
Did they do it?
What's going on here?
Well, Al-Shabaab is sort of a youth movement of the Islamic courts union that the power in Somalia, and when I say take power, it's sort of a loose way of saying that they ran the warlords off.
Warlords, of course, were financed by the United States so that they could fight Al-Qaeda.
But it created a state of just complete violent chaos in Somalia after it had enjoyed a relative period of stability, you know, African standards here.
And so the courts union took over, ran the warlords off, and established, you know, what Somalis considered order.
Not liberal democracy, but, you know, they liked it enough.
Al-Shabaab, oh, they were, and these people, the courts union was considered a, you know, a terrorist group and allied with Al-Qaeda, even though they were actually pretty, they were pretty moderate.
Al-Shabaab, though, is sort of a youth splinter group, craziest kids can be, and they were a little more, well, you could say Al-Qaeda-like.
So they basically, once the Ethiopians invaded and drove the Islamic courts union out, that's sort of what created Al-Shabaab, sort of like, you know, Israel and Lebanon created Hezbollah.
Right, well, they became, just like in Iraq and Afghanistan, they became an insurgency.
And, you know, began bombing Ethiopian troops, attacking them, you know, as kids do.
Well, and they won, too, right, and drove the Ethiopians out.
Yeah, well, in a way, yeah, yeah, the Ethiopians were, I guess, saw the futility of it.
The Israelis were not going to be happy with their traditional enemy, occupying their traditional Christian enemy, there to occupy their Muslim country.
It really makes sense from the beginning, the U.S. had basically contracted the Ethiopians to go in, so that they could say, look, oh, no, it's not another country we're intervening in, even though really they were.
All right, now, here's the thing where, well, I think I have this right, because when I said this to Leslie Lefkow from Human Rights Watch, she said that I was right, even though it just sounds crazy, but I think the way the deal is, Jeremy, is that the Islamic courts union and Al-Shabaab working together after forcing the Ethiopians out, this was in, what I guess, 2007 or 2008, 2007, then Connalisa Rice made a deal with the Islamic courts union that, you know, basically she cried uncle and said, okay, you can be the government of Somalia, Islamic courts union, but on the one condition that you have to be the government of Somalia within the shell of this transitional federal government that we've created for you.
So, the original warlord-type puppets were thrown out, and the Islamic courts union came and took over the transitional federal government, but then that left Al-Shabaab, and like you said, they're much more radical, and now they are, this group that grew up to help the Islamic courts union fight off the Ethiopians is now the insurgency against the Islamic courts union that they see as sellouts to the Americans for making that compromise.
Is that right?
Do I have that right?
Yeah, more or less, yeah, as far as I understand it.
I wish I knew the names of all these guys, right, like who were the guys in the Islamic courts union that became the transitional federal government, made that deal with Rice.
I really need to learn more about it.
Yeah, I unfortunately don't know all the names either, and I don't think it matters so much, but yeah, Al-Shabaab is not, they're against this transitional federal government.
It's a complete fabrication that was cobbled together by, you know, the so-called international community in the United States, run out of Nairobi for, I don't know, years, although this is the 14th, one of these little bubble governments that they've set up.
14th since 1993, I guess, and all of, you know, former Baret regime apparatchiks mixed with various warlords that were deemed acceptable by the West, and yeah, Al-Shabaab isn't happy about, you know, again, very radical element, not happy about mixing with those types.
Well, you know, the problem is, is the West has just turned our back on Somalia.
If we need to go in there and help those people, maybe create a federal government for them, right?
Because history began yesterday, right?
Right, right.
Well, and the European-style nation-state is the only way that human beings could possibly organize themselves.
Yeah, and this idea of the West having ignored Somalia is just the most insane thing that they're saying right now.
I mean, of the many crazy things they're saying, but to say that they're being ignored just yesterday, the Independent ran a so-called news article where they say that, you know, there's the consequences of ignoring the world's most failed state.
Ignoring?
Somalia's been anything but ignored.
The foreign intervention in Somalia has been going on since colonial rule, which itself is really intervention, but the U.S.
-Soviet Union were courting the Somali government back in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, and then the Beret regime fell, and then it was all kind of, like I said, there were these 14 attempts to slam a government on them.
They didn't want it.
They've been anything but ignored.
Is that really right?
Fourteen?
Fourteen, yes.
This is the 14th government that they have attempted to install in Mogadishu.
Yes.
One of four.
Insane.
Yes.
All right.
Now, you know, it's interesting recounting kind of the early 2000s, before the Islamic Courts Union really, you know, consolidated their power, there really was kind of an anarchy going on there, and it was more or less working, as you were saying there, you know, by African standards, they were doing pretty well, and it was really, the only reason they got the Islamic Courts Union in the first place was American support for these warlords, and they were the response to that.
That's exactly right.
God, what a shame.
Poor Somalia.
And by the way, you know, 105, 1.5 million people on the brink of starvation, tens of thousands killed, refugees everywhere, dead bodies everywhere.
All right.
Hang tight, y'all.
We'll be right back with Jeremy Sapiens after this.
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Waco, Texas, Heaven's Gate to Oklahoma, Bob.
The Desert Storm Syndrome experiments that went wrong.
Inject a home, because they probably won't come home anyway.
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It's Antiwar Radio.
I'm Scott Horton, talking to Jeremy Sapiens.
He's an editor at antiwar.com.
And we're talking about the American-caused catastrophe in Somalia and the rebellion there, the insurgency.
Now, one of things that I guess this gets headlines every once in a while, Jeremy, but I don't ever hear much discussion about, you know, any kind of larger context or whether it means anything or anything, and that is American Somalis leaving Minnesota primarily, I guess, is where there's a big Somali community, and going to Somalia to fight.
And I think at least one of them even became a suicide bomber in this war.
Oh, yeah.
It was last year, about November.
Yeah, these kids are, you know, there's a lot of Somalis in Minnesota, and these kids hear about the terrible things that are going on there, and they're pissed.
The problem is, I mean, they go over there and, you know, get killed fighting, joining al-Shabaab.
The problem is that the media was classifying them as terrorists when, as far as I know, there aren't really any American civilians in Somalia, and when they're fighting against Ugandan troops, say, that's not terrorism, that's called war, generally, and just because they don't have some nation's uniform on doesn't mean that they're terrorists.
Right.
Well, apparently it does, because like you say, the Western European nation-state is the only way to go, and uniforms for everybody.
Al-Shabaab, they need to make, you know, getting uniforms their first priority after, I guess, the next tanker they seize or something.
Well, they wouldn't want to be accused of technical war crimes by not wearing a uniform.
Become unprivileged enemy belligerents, and you know, that's the thing, too, is back when this started, at least, pretty much anybody who showed up at the Kenyan border, hey, why are you fleeing the war we just started, unless you're guilty?
And so that got rounded up and renditioned to Ethiopia, including some American citizens, right?
Right.
American citizens renditioned to Ethiopia.
Did anybody, are they still there?
Do you know?
I can't say.
I'm not sure.
That's what's funny, no one ever paid attention again.
Some people, like what, one-tenth of one percent of us heard that some Americans had been renditioned to Ethiopia, and that was the last any of us heard about it.
Yeah, I mean, I gotta say that this is, I mean, I have an interest, you know, personal interest in Somalia for several years, and I mean, I'm not, I wouldn't really call myself an expert, but even somebody like me who's interested in it, I can't possibly keep up with all the angles, and so they can do whatever they want, because the media is definitely not keeping tabs.
Yeah, definitely not.
Well, you know, I actually, I usually leave the TV on mute with the closed captioning on at the bottom during the show in case something really big happens, but the only thing they're talking about today is some baseball guy died, and still no coverage on what any of this going on in Somalia means.
If anything, they'd be covering what a Republican said about it, and what a Democrat said about the Republican who said something about it, or something like that, maybe.
Yeah, well, what is there to say?
People, Islamic terrorists, flew some nice Christians up in Uganda, for no political reasons whatsoever, they're just anti-soccer, I guess, and that's all there is to say about it.
Well, so tell us what you have to say about it, for real, then.
We've still got a few minutes here.
What's the role of Uganda here?
What does this have to do with it?
Well, Uganda has 5,000 troops in Somalia, and shockingly, Somalis don't like the idea of that, especially al-Shabaab, and al-Shabaab has said for years that they're going to attack Uganda and Burundi, who also has a small contingent there, but Uganda has, by far, the largest contingent, and al-Shabaab finally followed through on their threat, and it's sad that Ugandans had to pay for the crimes of their government, but that's what's happened.
They're the innocent victims in what their government has done, which is occupy Somalia.
It's a pretty simple, clear-cut case of blowback, it's almost the clearest case that's happened in recent history.
I mean, 9-11 is a bit convoluted, because it wasn't direct, this is direct.
Ugandan troops in Somalia, killing Somalis.
Somalis are angry.
Kill Ugandans.
Simple.
Yep.
Sounds like arithmetic to me.
Everybody, I'm talking with Jeremy Sapienza, he's an editor at Antiwar.com, he's the author of this new piece just published in the Christian Science Monitor, called Uganda Bombings.
Obama mustn't meddle in Somalia.
And this gets right to my thing here too, Jeremy, and that is that this can be just a new pretext for brand new intervention, because again, the whole thing about there is no history.
We all, our whole society, just fell off the turnip truck late last night, and so if they want to say that this soccer bombing is an excuse to now put a bunch of Special Forces guys into Somalia or whatever, here's their pretext, huh?
That's right.
That's exactly right.
Well, you know, I guess this is sort of a silly question, but do you think the American people will ever kind of understand the whole cause and effect in the terror war thing?
I mean, hell, even if, you know, September 11th, the big excuse did happen out of the clear blue sky with no motivation other than Islam and freedom hatred and whatever, what about even just all these attacks since then?
Do you think the American people will ever kind of get it, that killing people makes their surviving loved ones angry?
It's difficult to see from their point of view, because it's really just so simple, the idea that you would kill someone and their family would be angry with you or with your country and would seek to punish you.
I mean, it's almost like they can't imagine what it would be like for them.
And they've got a lot working against them as far as politicians and media spinning it.
And they spin it in a way that they're used to hearing, very believable for them.
So I'm not, I can't say, I'm really not sure if they'll ever really understand that.
Yeah.
Well, you know, I wonder if, you know, think about like if the Times Square bombing attack had been successful and actually some powerful explosives and it killed some people, would the right lesson, the consequences of intervention have kicked in then?
Or would we be even blinder?
You know?
How are we going to be after the next red alert?
You know?
Yeah, no, each one just serves to sort of cement the idea that we're under attack for no reason.
Yeah.
And any attempt by any of the rest of us to connect the dots is America hatred.
All right, everybody, again, Jeremy Sapienza's article is brand new out in the Christian Science Monitor, Uganda bombings, Obama mustn't meddle in Somalia.
You think this is really all about, you know, keeping Somalia for a big Navy base or something, strategy and all that?
God, I don't know.
It would be really, this is a really long time coming.
The intervention has been going on for 20 years, it's hard to imagine that it's just because they want a base.
It seems like they could slam a base in there and Somalians couldn't really do anything about it anyhow.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, you know, when I talked with Leslie Lefkow, I asked her, what's this about?
And she said, no, really, they're chasing al-Qaeda, they think.
You know, it's just like the Washington Post said at Christmas in 06, when the Ethiopians under Dick Cheney invaded, they actually said in the Post that they're after three al-Qaeda linked terrorists, suspected terrorists wanted by the FBI for questioning in the 1998 embassy attacks.
And if they have to level Somalia to get them, they will.
Yeah.
And they still, they haven't got them, but they have killed a lot of women and children.
And they turned, you know, this society, which as you said, was just getting its act together after decades of conflict and just turned it right back upside down again.
You know, the Times a few weeks back, I'm sure you saw, was saying that the UN had to suspend their food aid.
The security situation is so bad, they can't even get food aid to the starving refugees.
Yeah, it's terrible.
I mean, sure, al-Shabaab is for radicalism and attacks, but, you know, they're responding to something and they may be wrong in the way that they do it, but there's certainly a reason.
Yeah.
And here, you know, we'll do hands across America for Ethiopia, but we'll commit famine against Somalia.
Same difference, I guess, you know?
All right.
All right.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that they, going back to your earlier point, I think that they really do think that they're just honestly fighting a war on terror.
I don't think they're evil.
They're just...
They're as dumb as their propaganda.
All right.
Well, thanks very much for your time on the show today, Jeremy, and congratulations on this great piece in the Christian Science Monitor today.
Thank you.
All right, everybody.
We'll be back.
We've got more anti-war radio coming up.
