All right, y'all welcome back Since I wore radio Our next guest is Franklin lamb.
He is a lawyer and a former board member of the Sabra Shatila foundation director of Americans concerned for Middle East peace and former professor of international law at Northwestern College of Law in Oregon he's got this great piece at counterpunch called the Lutfala to arms smuggling scandal Welcome to show Franklin.
How are you doing?
Fine.
Thank you.
And you're in Tripoli Lebanon right now.
No, no Beirut.
I'm in Beirut Okay.
Well then hi to the NSA guys on the line, too Good to talk to y'all again All right.
So the Lutfala to that's a boat that was full of guns.
Tell us everything Well, it got sailed on last Thursday after being loaded in Benghazi Trip Benghazi Libya, it's owned by Some Syrian businessmen who are based in Saudi Arabia What eyewitnesses have said including Hassan Anon who was in Benghazi and others the boat was loaded with two large containers containing totally 150,000 tons it was meant to Take two million tons.
It was the or the manifest shows that there were going to be 15 Containers and what what happened then is that it left Libya went to Egypt Went to Turkey and back and then headed for Tripoli Lebanon and it was there was someone tipped them off and the Lebanese army Marines Aborted it and found these weapons now, it's in Libya port have been 21 arrests today And people are trying to get to the bottom of who?
Was responsible for these weapons the government here and most of the eyewitnesses who have spoken indicate that that Craft was to leave that vessel was to leave Tripoli Libya and go over to Latakia in Syria It was headed to the rebels in Syria Well, that's certainly the presumption because now as you know, just a little background during the war in Libya the NATO war in Libya I was there for four and a half months and I'm part of a international team that's Wanting to bring and working on bringing a case before the International Criminal Court against NATO So we have done a lot of research as you know The New York Times did some and also the Human Rights Watch and some other groups showing the civilian damage and the violations of the laws of war and international humanitarian law conducted by NATO between March 18 of 2011 and October 31 of 2011, you know, they flew some 12,000 sorties of which close to 8,000 were bombing sorties and they enabled the regime of Qaddafi to be Toppled because without NATO, of course the people in the street in Benghazi You know probably would have been over the whole incident Maybe by by late March or or mid April, so it was very much NATO's war They called the shots and they you know bombed and paved the way for rebels to advance So it became for a lot of young men and and and not all Libyans a sort of a lark I mean there were plenty of guns there were money so now as you probably know the a big problem of the Transitional government is getting those arms out of the hands of all these militia who number almost 500 I mean you can imagine, you know an adolescent life The government provides almost everything free education free medical care You don't really have to work there to get by So in a sense Qaddafi spoiled the people but give them some guns and Anti-aircraft weapons on the back of a Toyota pickup racing around and it's very addictive and that's exactly what happened so the country in short was awash in weapons a weapons of stockpiles that Qaddafi forces had but could not access because of NATO some were You know not found and then quite Qatar shipped in large quantities of arms funded by the Saudi Arabias and and the Regime in Doha Qatar and this is not speculation.
I mean, this is a matter of fact They admit that during the war as you probably call recall They supported the NATO operation.
They got the Gulf crop of Cooperation Council to support it They got the Arab League to support it So their involvement is very clear real briefly the war ends October 31 all these weapons all over the country Well, actually hold it right there.
I wanted to ask you real quick it the way I remember it was the The Americans kind of twisted some arms Not probably not too hard because I guess the Saudis always hated Qaddafi anyway or whatever But the Saudis kind of played hardball and said well you have to help us or at least turn a blind eye to our crushing the Opposition in Bahrain in order for us to go along with your war in Libya And that was the handshake deal that they made and so in that sense Due to that deal the Saudis and the Qataris and whoever else were simply acting as NATO sock puppets in that war in Libya so one I want you to go ahead and agree or disagree with that say whatever you want about it and then to Make the parallel to Libya if there is one.
I mean to pardon me to Syria now if there is no Okay, um that could have been Of course Qaddafi insulted the royal family three years ago.
Remember he he called for his assassination and there was Evidence that that that plot had been set in motion So yeah, the thought the Saudi Arabia Arabians detested him and vice versa But you know the Americans decided under this rp2 Responsibility to protect with people like Lieberman in the Congress and John McCain and others that By God, this is an opportunity to to show what we're made of So there was domestic pressure in the u.s.
That was taken to the Security Council That the British jumped in with that Sarkozy did the Russians were Ambivalent but finally went along and that's an important fact as did China So they had this resolution 1701 and and they launched the they launched the the campaign Certainly they the Saudis once once the war started the fact that they would supply money because again The their their feeling that Qaddafi was a tyrant and the Qataris, I guess for a bunch of reasons When you know join join this campaign, I think a lot of it too was American pressure Americans didn't want to get in with foots on the ground But they wanted the Arabs to do the job and the the Qataris did send sports Special portions so did the Americans the Americans were training The rebels trying to whip him into shape the French also had special forces and the British but they were small in number They relied on on the rebels who would get guns and and and and money But they resigned they relied on those 8,000 bombing runs by NATO To pave the way and to destroy the heavy artillery the tanks and any Forces of Qaddafi that could be found, you know at bases and and information so that got it that Launched it in the and the reason I mean it was successful for a bunch of reasons one Qaddafi Qaddafi Darby had Had really weakened remember he did the deal in 2003 on the on the The nuclear party gave up the centrifuges Right date.
Well, and this is my whole theory about the Libya war And and I think it's partially confirmed at least by Michael Hastings and his piece on Libya that Hillary said we got this whole Arab Spring off on the wrong foot Meaning PR wise and America needed to take the little guy's side and one of these things because it was too obvious We backed every tortured dictatorship in the region less Syria and Iran because we don't control them anymore But anyway, I'm sorry, we have to leave it right there and go out to this break But we'll be right back with Franklin Lamb.
He's got this great piece in the counterpunch.
They're the Latfala to arm smuggling scandal All right, so welcome back to anti-war radio talking with Franklin Lamb former professor of international law at Northwestern College of Law in Oregon and Author of this great piece at counterpunch the Latfala to arm smuggling scandal We've gotten a little bit off topic here talking about the parallels with the war in Libya and well I mean obviously the boat starts in Libya so that has a lot to do with it but you were making the point that Qaddafi had only come in from the coal back in 2003 and then I was trying to right chime in I said it in the Long form but long story short.
He was expendable He was the most expendable of America saw the dictatorships in the region And so they went ahead and made an example out of them really for American televisions I think I think so too because remember going back to 2002.
He did the deal on Lockerbie through his son He started at least been training His his police in in in the u.s He got rid of his weapons most of them of the mass destructions and he was given the seal of approval In a sense and he started doing major business deals with American corporations French and Italians British and and you know in a sense, it's a little odd that they went after him and and you mentioned the Potential similarity with Syria we could we could list 12 reasons why Libya was not Similar to Syria the size of the population the fact that that Qaddafi Didn't really have an organized army a lot of them stood he stood him down to impress the Americans His equipment was all old a lot of it not well-maintained The Syria is much stronger has a you know 400 man army You know Really modern weapons that they've got from everywhere from you know Russia and and Iran the other thing Qaddafi didn't have friends because of his Image and and his unreliability Nobody was willing to go out on a limb the African Union sort of tried But he couldn't even get support really much in Africa where he had earlier, you know Somebody they declared that he was king of Africa, but in Syria, they've got Iran as you know they've got the support of his Bala Hamas and also Russia and China and Turkey typically but but but right now not right now Nobody wants a war or NATO does not want a war On the ground at all in the Americans certainly don't because also the strategic position of Syria that Qaddafi didn't have Qaddafi had one thing sweet crude and and you as you know We were getting that really a lot of sweetheart deals were done Sweetheart deals were done, but I agree with you.
They wanted to make an example Remember when Obama first announced it because the CIA had been over there a lot.
They knew he didn't have any army and Obama said look this is going to take days not weeks because the CIA Yeah, yeah, he also, you know, he claimed Yeah He claimed I love this parallel where Bill Clinton Pretended that a hundred thousand men women and children had been killed in Kosovo in order to start his phony war in 1999 like Bush's weapons of mass destruction in this case Obama just promised that a hundred thousand men women and children would be killed if he didn't start the war now Where there was no wholesale slaughter of innocents to even point at just that You know take it off these statements out of context and he just promised that he would yeah Qaddafi made a mistake that a lot of the Dictators have in this so-called Islamic awakening spring Arab spring period which some people say is over.
I I maintain it's just beginning It's going to continue until they liberate well and same thing for the counter-revolution and that's really the story I mean this thing I agree.
It's going to go on for a long long time It's Asian Egypt or just the very beginning of the thing.
It's going to be a whole era, you know going on here But yeah, but now we need to learn more here about we only have you know, I don't know good Six seven minutes left something like that.
Okay to learn about the Lutfala to and you know, what is probably going on here it sounds like what's happening is They took a bunch of arms that had been sent to Libya for the the war there last year and and they took the excess They put it on a boat and suppose we'd heard some reports.
I think that there were a few hundred At least Libyan fighters that had also been sent to Syria apparently to help the rebels to overthrow Bashar al-assad Earlier that that's true and and certain salafis and people say oh my god Al-qaeda was a danger in Libya and al-qaeda is now a danger in in Syria But I say that's nonsense.
Al-qaeda will take an opportunity when it gets it But they're small in number and that's no reason to keep a dictator The one thing that was similar so we can list all we could go on for half an hour and list the differences between Syria and Libya as I think you'll agree But what is fundamental and what is the same was the decision was made?
Before NATO went in that it was there was going to be regime change They accomplished that the decision in Syria Despite all these calls for the anon the six-point plan and the dialogue and all this stuff It's regime change.
The Americans will not stop.
They represent the Empire.
They want to return to hegemony They've got to get rid of this regime.
So the next regime will recognize as they claim Israel and that it'll be a big blow to Iran also to Russia.
Remember we're in competition increasingly with Russia They hope that the regime change will bring the end of Hezbollah as well.
So that's the crossroads.
That's the crosshairs and that's why it's going to go on I personally predict that that that Assad will have to go because the numbers are getting too high with the killing and There's some major problems there and there's legitimate concerns from the of the people there.
I go to Syria a lot It's right next door and while I don't like the Method that's being used by the Americans for regime change and I support Iran and Hezbollah and the others Who are committed to the resistance the fact is that that kind of regime has got to have up Got to meet the needs of the people.
The question is can Bashar himself do it or will he step aside and and and someone else You who can do it?
I don't know.
I mean and that's the problem, right?
Is that the the people of Syria poor then this has nothing to do with them.
This is all about major power politics There is no Syrian Empire with any cards to play it's all about whose side are you on outside of your own borders?
Absolutely, right.
So We don't really get much reporting out of Libya anymore obviously You know what we get doesn't lend to the idea that everything is great and peaceful and Would you expect for once the Assad regime falls I would predict just outright civil war for years like the kind of madness that took place in Iraq, right?
And that's a reordering of power there.
I agree with you that yeah.
Yeah, I think that that's going to be the model They're gonna make the current death count look like nothing Alawi conflict with foreign interventions of all sorts the Saudis the Americans the Israelis the Qataris will support the Sunnis Iran Obviously will support the Shia and Iraq will support the Shia and the Turks Not sure.
But yeah, it's years of conflict Ahead I'm afraid in Syria.
Meanwhile in Libya who knows I mean there are now people saying that more People are petitioning for the return of the Qaddafi regime to his son Saif al-Islam with whom I met three times last summer The NATO aired NATO made a huge mistake in Libya and it's not going to be pretty for years To come either that that's an example an egregious example of of enforced Hegemony attempted hegemony that didn't work out and it's not going to work out in Syria Which I I say that NATO did not start but the American administration is badly handling And they've got themselves into a devil of a mess Obama won't touch it until after the election And so the you know, they have time to do what they want the regime they can do anything They want there will be no interference as you know, Russia has made clear no foreign interference Except that said Iran Hezbollah and Russia and China are not happy They're not happy with the killing because their reputation is being damaged How do you expect that expect that Hezbollah with its its claimed morality?
It's politics its resistance are allowing this slaughter and I'm not I'm a supporter of Hezbollah But one thing about Hezbollah you can sit down with them and you can say what you think and they're open to it You know, they're very much into dialogue and studying studying studying the Iranians, too So you can disperse and and I know for a fact that a lot of Hezbollah and the Iranian regime are not happy with what's going on with this incredible embarrassment the killing How do they survive in terms of of mass mass support?when they're allied with Assad's of the problem but yet they supported the uprising in Egypt and Bahrain and the one that's going to come in Saudi Arabia and you're and of course in Tunisia Morocco and Libya, but what's special about They not nearly the numbers were killed that are happening in Syria So people are asking even their own people are asking how do you justify this double standard and they don't have a good answer Yeah, so I think What do you think about the death tolls coming out of Syria?
You know so many times The BBC quoting this Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, which sounds to me like just the mi6 Is that a real thing?
Should we believe anything I say?
Oh, well, I I think you average him out Remember there were wild claims that Qaddafi killed 150,000 in Libya we I was over there We knew that was total nonsense the real figure of even with the NATO casualties is something like 7,000 Doesn't matter how many you know, it's still it's still a crime.
Um, I don't know I got I if you average your amnesties report some of the reporters over there and and the Human Rights Watch and and these local NGOs and nobody can establish much to the contrary I I would put in the UN itself has given its imprimatur and said it's kind of like 10,000 or 11.
Um, I I believe personally somewhere in that range because there's a lot of people getting slaughtered We have here almost a million Syrians, you know, it used to be part of Syria.
They're right there now not a million came from fleeing but scores of tens of Thousands came.
I'm sorry.
You know what Franklin?
I'm I'm so sorry.
We are way over time I've got to let you go and get Ray McGovern on the phone here.
Thank you so much for your time I hope we can talk again soon pleasure.
Yellow back everybody.
That's Franklin lamb Look at him on his article at counterpunch here another Watergate unfolding the let falla to arm smuggling scandal
