All right, so welcome back to the show here It's anti-war radio.
And hey, look at me.
I got Eric Margulies on the line again Welcome back to the show Eric.
Well, nice to be back with you Scott.
Well good.
I'm glad you feel that way You guys know Eric.
He's been a reporter mostly on Middle Eastern affairs Although all the way into Central Asia and wherever else to of course for decades now He keeps a website at Eric Margulies EricMargulies.com Eric Margulies really is how you would spell it.
I guess Eric Margulies spell it Margulies.
That's what I'm trying to say Nice new site.
I like it.
Thank you Scott.
Finally It was like pulling teeth to get it up, but there it is ready to roll Yeah, never is easy getting a new website going is it but there you go.
All right, the dangerous mess in Syria grows murkier to start off Paragraph three reads my assessment is based on reliable primary sources in Washington Turkey Jordan and Lebanon So good Tell us everything that you've learned from all these awesome sources that you have Syria as well Well what I've learned actually I've been developing the thought right along because I've been writing it last November The pretty much The same view now.
I flushed it out.
I have much more detail But what's happening is look it started it started as the Western but the United States Britain and France in aligned with Israel and Saudi Arabia and right-wing forces in Lebanon Have been infiltrating armed fighters Into northern Syria, that was the genesis of the uprising and now You say in the article don't you that and they have been since the very beginning?
You're telling me this is where this whole revolt started.
It was a foreign intervention.
That's correct You have to compare it to what happened in Libya because there are many parallel French intelligence service DGSC Organized the first uprising in Benghazi Libya traditionally anti-Qaddafi area And they organized it armed it and then they created this kind of revolutionary council which Was to become the recognized government of Libya so the whole thing was staged managed by French intelligence the What's happening in Syria?
It's a similar thing.
That's one Strand of the story you have an outside group using of some Islamists and mercenaries rogue fighters Syrian government is screaming Terrorism these are terrorist groups And it's why should we refuse to negotiate with terrorists any more than the United States is going to negotiate with al-qaeda Strand number two is there be the Assad Ba'ath party has been in power for 40 years in Syria and 41 years and It is detested.
It's a very oppressive brutal regime and It's a minority regime run by hollow whites about 10 to 12 percent of the population a Shia offshoot sect and And the majority of the population who are Sunni Muslims Hate the Alawis who they consider to be heretics and they're fed up with this dictatorial regime of Of the Assad family, so they're rising in rebellion and that's a very legitimate spontaneous Revolt whether it's aiming for democracy or not.
I don't know.
I doubt it Then There are other groups involved that are important like serious Christians who are very influential About 12 percent 12 percent of the population.
They're supporting the Assad regime They saw the Christians of Iraq were destroyed and they worry for their own future The merchant class and Syria still supporting the government some Kurds major big city dwellers And then the armed forces and the secret police security, so We're looking at a real Civil war part of which is being fueled by the Western powers who are now Whose media is now presenting us this disingenuous view that it's poor helpless people calling for democracy Who are being gunned down in the street by the evil Assad regime?hmm What a mess.
All right.
Well So there's a lot to go over there first of all You're telling me basically that the people of Syria who like for example in near Rosen's reporting He's saying hey man in neighborhood to neighborhood There are small groups of men who just grab rifles and volunteer to fight because they're sick and tired.
They hate Assad They're this natural rebellion.
You're telling me.
Yeah, that's true But those poor bastards are just being used by these outside powers They can't make a move that they're not actually doing Hillary Clinton or Benjamin Netanyahu's dirty work.
Is that basically what you're saying?
Well, they're not under control of the Western powers, but I'm not sure They are working certainly at the same goal, which is to overthrow the Assad regime You know the u.s.
Backed off on overthrowing the Assad some years ago Because the Washington concluded and rightfully so that they would be replaced by Muslim Brotherhood Which is very militant underground And would not be obedient to American Commands some years ago.
You mean like after the Iraq War?
When Israel last invaded when Bush was still in office, okay his last year's office and They will know because we were going to create a horrible Iraq style mess there Well now this has gone by the board the idea is let's get Iran and the the road to Tehran leads Damascus overthrow the Assad and it'll be a big blow to the wicked Iranians, right?
Well, yeah, the president made that pretty clear in his Goldberg interview in the Atlantic where he just he and the interviewer Brings it up this way, but Obama sure doesn't correct him or anything This is all about weakening Iran has nothing to do with caring about the poor Syrians.
Come on Washington is definitely it's an election year Washington and the US media are gripped by hysteria over Iran It's the only way I can describe it Freud would have had a wonderful time with it You know, we're gonna go to we're going to go to war against a country that has no nuclear weapons and no delivery systems To send them but we're going to go to war just in case they might now Okay I could understand and you say in the article that France has interests and wanting their old Empire back over there or whatever that sounds Like something Sarkozy would be up to but what American interest is there in Syria at all other than what Netanyahu wants in Israel?
Well, there's the u.s.
Interest in that as they having everybody obedience, right?
No examples left out That's why I got my last book I called American Raj As in the British Raj Imperial Raj in India, and that is everybody obey the United States and all the local rulers you're going to report to Washington and So that's one theme in American foreign policy.
The other is that So much of American Mideast policy is dominated by Israel and by Israel's interests and Israel's interest Is right now as seen by the right-wing government in Israel is to crush Syria break it into splinter it And leave it a little weak state with no Capability to resist Israel at all.
Well now we talked about that before this whole concept is really American neocons I guess at least coined the best phrase David Wormser said let's expedite the chaotic collapse in Syria so that we can control what happens next but I What I'd like for you to nail down for me is whether what you're telling me is your analysis your conclusion based on all the evidence or Specifically, you know that say I don't know Netanyahu and a hood Barack have agreed that yes This is our policy.
We are hell-bent on regime change in Syria in the short term No, I'm been sitting in their office or fly on the wall.
So I'm assuming But it doesn't look like it I'm not arguing with that I just want to know if you had something that's really saying.
Oh, yeah, they've definitely decided that you know I can I can tell you Definitively about the armed intervention.
This is supposition.
However, comma As I've said before on your program the this is a very strong current of thought on Israel's right wing At that to break up all the Arab countries and leave Israel is the only man standing, right?
Well, we sure seem to be tracking with that policy That's funny because I think I could even find some causation to that correlation, but we might have to save it till after this break It's Eric Margulies Eric Margolis commas his website the dangerous mess in Syria grows murkier and we'll be right back You All right y'all welcome back to the show It's anti-war radio I'm talking with Eric Margulies.
He's the author of war at the top of the world and American Raj Liberation or domination you can often find him at Lou Rockwell calm and his own website is Eric Margolis calm and I say it like that because if you spell it like that, that's how you'll find it In fact, if you spell it wrong your local search engine will probably help you out the dangerous mess in Syria grows Murkier and we're talking about the wide and varied collection of factions already at war to some degree in Syria and it sure looks like a combination of NATO and the Israelis are Pushing very hard for the overthrow of the Assad regime Despite the fact Eric that everybody knows that it's going to be Assuming they can make the state fall there, which I guess it's just a matter of time They have enough money and weapons to eventually if they have to Take Damascus the way they did Tripoli or whatever but then after that everybody knows it's going to be one of Michael Ledeen's boiling cauldrons over there and Those things can be dangerous to everybody involved.
You know, they're really playing with serious fire over there Am I wrong and wait a minute and then the point is they all know that The Americans know that the French know that the British know that the Israelis have got to know they're like Hey, we're risking turning this into a massive jihadi factory or whatever Like Iraq was only right on their northern border now.
Well, you're quite right and Everybody does know it but the Western powers of cloth are now closing their eyes to this what seems like inevitability They're setting the whole neighborhood on fire If Syria really blows the top blows off Syria turning it could turn it to another Iraq It could turn it to another Lebanon, which I covered in the 1970s a dreadful civil war there Sure, everybody's aware of it.
But as I said, there's this this this mania now to get at Iran Right-wing governments are fueling this Even Israel hesitated for a long time because they got along quite well with the Assad regime and the Assad didn't start making noise They didn't make noise about the Golan Heights, which Israel is occupied Illegally since 1981 the Syrian Golan Heights So they were okay with that But even so the French want to get their hooks back into Syria and it's a Lebanon the Americans we talked about the Brits are just want to pick up the crumbs from the Americans and There's a lynch mob forming.
I think it's the best way to describe it.
Well, you know what it is.
It's Finally, it's reminding me of William S Lind and what he has written about the end of the nation-state and how fourth generation warfare is going back to generation Negative one really to before Westphalia and the nation-state and all these things in the Middle East really are legacies of the old European colonies who themselves were nation-states and so they went and made nation-states and left them behind and of course You know American Britain, especially since World War two has been involved in keeping these things You know run by centralized dictatorships and whatever But I guess you know the bet that we're making here that we're talking about is if you overthrow the state in Syria You might not ever have a state of Syria to replace it ever again Which I'm saying, you know all things being equal that would be great for the Syrians, but all things aren't equal that just means that they're even more helpless to foreign powers like the United States and Israel and Iran and Saudi Arabia and whoever else to But that's the kind of thing that they're playing with right that this will just be kind of a permanent low-level battleground I guess that's what they want That's right We've talked about the Zionist ideologue of Vladimir Jabotinsky from the 1920s He was the most important thinker to to the right-wing Israeli Movements and even today's liquid party and his most famous doctrine was that he said the Arab countries are all fragile Mosaics give them one good smack and they'll fall into their component pieces.
They'll shatter.
Well, maybe not Egypt, but certainly the Arab states and They're fragile.
They're artificial.
They're they're poorly ruled There's not much sense of nationalism There's a lot of sense of localism and tribalism and this will as you say to happen to Syria Syria will be shattered.
It'll break up and then Iraq broken up Saudi Arabia could also fall apart, too And guess who the Lebanon is a mess as it is Anyway, this will leave Israel really as the unchallenged ruler of the area except for Egypt Well, you know Those those people really paying close attention back then might remember in 2002.
Maybe it was early 2003 Richard Perle had a former LaRouche cook or maybe it was a current LaRouche cook Come and give a talk at the Defense Policy Board Newt Gingrich was there and they talked about how Iraq he called Iraq is the tactical pivot Saudi Arabia meaning regime change in Saudi Arabia is the strategic pivot Egypt the prize Because Egypt is the center of Arab civilization, basically So just in other words, let's just turn all of these into boiling cauldrons let's just get rid of any monopoly on force and Hope to perpetuate Permanent war throughout them.
He wasn't talking about spreading democracy and freedom and peace They wear Sears Roebuck suits, but aside from that they could be fascists from the 1930s and Lord save us from these bloodthirsty people because they are Really the beginnings of the American Nazi part not Nazi by American fascist party Well, all right Let me see if I can convince you to buy this I read a thing that said that you know Not all the Republicans are on board for John McCain's point of view on this.
In fact, they even quote Mitch McConnell Partially quote Mitch McConnell sort of going.
I don't know man about this So is there any hope at all that cooler heads or at least I?
Don't know Less bought-off heads or something could prevail in DC here I have a hope Look the president president Obama has been at least digging his heels in in an election years have very tough to do to Tell the Israel lobby to slow down And to try and slow the rush to war The Iran though not necessarily Syria, right?correct, there are Sensible heads in the Pentagon and in CIA Particularly who don't want any more wars in the Middle East and they're bureaucratically trying to throw out Anchors to slow it down and there's the old guard in Washington Republican and Democrat which are Are not in the in the hands of the of religious groups in the Deep South who are paying for war?
So yeah, there is there is some resistance But there's so much pro-war sentiment I I really wonder how we're going to avoid getting involved in another war in the Middle East That's funny what you say about the old guard.
I remember Lou Rockwell one time wrote an article It was about is it going to be David Wilmer or Robert Zolich to be?
Conway's arises right-hand man at state and Lou Rockwell titled it.
It's a heck of a note to have to root for the Rockefellers And that's that old guard like oh, well, maybe you know, it was a big new Brzezinski can talk them out of doing something stupid That's what we have to hope for now well, we do and that was the Grown-up mature rational Republican Party of the 1950s 60s and 70s Which I remember well, I was the ones who built this Empire that's now blown up in all of our faces But it was the crazies who came out of the woodwork the far right-wing crazies that have now taken control of Republican policy and It is very frightening but the Republican Party while it's paying for war is also the mixed metaphor shooting itself in both feet and This may be digging its own grave here because a lot of Americans I think are going to see how extreme and disconnected from reality Republicans have become Well, you know, I didn't really think something until I was saying it during a somebody interviewing me earlier on the radio and then I realized I thought it that when it comes to sanctions on Iran and all of the exemptions granted to Korea and Japan and all the rest of our allies that they don't have to go along with our sanctions that That really kind of shows that the rest of the world sees America as a weak and dying Empire Maybe even in the short term because they're looking at it and saying, you know It could be soon enough that we need Iranian oil more than we need our relationship with you America Because what is your relationship going to have to offer us when you're losing all your power?
Well, that's right.
I wrote in 1999 that That India would emerge as a major rival for with the u.s in the Middle East because India is right next door and India wants oil and We see the beginnings of though we see that happening today is India now is still buying Iranian oil while Washington protests so a Dying Empire yes, but that could still lash out cause a lot of damage Yeah, they have a lot of bombers left.
All right Well, I'm sorry.
We're all out of time, but we are thank you very much for yours They're always a pleasure to be with you Scott the heroic Eric Margulies everybody Eric Margulies calm Spotlight Margulies the dangerous mess in Syria goes murky.
We'll be right back
