All right, and now I guess we'll get a couple of few minutes out of Eric Margulies before we go to this break I had a little bit of trouble getting through his hotel switchboard But we got it done now.
Welcome back to the show Eric.
How are you doing?
I'm just fine Scott I'm talking to you from Paris tonight Tonight already over there, huh?
Well for today.
Anyway tonight.
It's almost night here.
It's almost lunchtime in Texas All right.
Well, so for some reason I'm not sure why but my whole life since I read such things I've read All about Syria byline Paris France.
So apparently it's perfectly okay to report on Syria from Paris I'm not sure why that is.
Do you know why?well, because France used to be the colonial ruler of What's modern Syria today and Lebanon France detached Lebanon from from historic?
Syria creating an endless problem and a headache France has been intriguing in Syria and Lebanon ever since the 1920s and 1940s and today in fact France's is also busy Actively working with the u.s.
To overthrow the Syrian government So really what the Western powers are doing in Syria Anyway, Paris is the place to pick up and it certainly is.
All right.
Well, so what are you learning over there?well the Elaborate more on the intervention that you just mentioned there, please.
Okay.
Well France France's working as I said closely with the u.s.
To destabilize the Assad regime Which it never liked at all because France and Syria have been at daggers drawn over Lebanon because France regards Lebanon as a French protectorate and the French sphere of influence and the Syrians are guarded as a Syrian sphere of influence And each has their own parties Syria supports Hezbollah the Shiite Militia movement fraud supports the right-wing Christian parties and some of the Sunni Muslims In alliance with Saudi Arabia.
It's a very complex situation just suffice it to say that the French and the Syrians are fighting over Lebanon and meanwhile, the French trying to undermine the Syrians and the Americans are too but The leaders in Paris and Washington are scratching their heads because if they succeed in overthrowing the Assad regime in Syria They're not quite sure what comes next right and well and it seems like If any are there any organized factions in Syria or even the possibility of a much more democratic type system coming forward?
To take power that they would be any more compliant on issues with you know Lebanon or for that matter the future of the Golan Heights and dealing with the Israelis Scott I don't see it that way Syria is a very Fragile country.
It has tremendous internal tensions.
It's been run for 30 years by a religious minority known as the Alawi Or an off-street shoot of the Shiites the Assad's are from the Alawis.
They're disliked intensely by the majority Sunni Muslims In in their camp is the is the Muslim Brotherhood a very conservative Group that's been trying to overthrow Assad for years rose up against him in 19 in the 1980s But then there are the the Syrian Christians were about 10% of the population And they support the Assad regime because as in Iraq They like the Iraqi Christians supported Saddam.
They they feel they have their created by the brothers.
Yeah.
All right now Hold it right there Eric.
We got to go out to this break But we'll be right back everybody with Eric Margulies all about American and Western intervention in Syria All right, y'all welcome back to the show It's anti-war radio I'm sitting here talking with Eric Margulies, even though he's over in Paris France right now Seems strange you can sit down and talk to somebody from that far away, but there you go 21st century Yeah, even the 20th even the 19th.
You could do that.
I guess talk to people in France.
Anyway, so we're talking about American intervention American French probably Israeli.
I don't know Western and Israeli intervention in in Syria right now, there's a bunch of people revolting and Just in the last week.
We had the American and French ambassador turned up in Hama and then there was a reaction pro-government protest where Apparently it was just a protest but they broke into the French and American embassies and did a little sit-in which you know provoked the Americans and French to say even tougher things and I just wonder, you know, how hard are they trying for this regime change there?
Is it fair to say that the revolution is basically just a big fake revolution like Iran 53?
Or you just have CIA crawling around everywhere trying to co-opt this thing or how's it work there?
Well, I think it's a mixture of all of the above, you know Here my French hotel There's a Lebanese dinner menu How often do you see that hotel?
It shows how plugged France is into Lebanon What's happening is that the the Western powers are trying to co-opt as you say these Rebellions that have broken out in the Arab world.
They're doing a very good job of it So far what's happening in Syria is a combination of anti regime feeling particularly amongst the Sunni Muslims But there's their democracy seekers.
They're people just plain angry want to kick out the Assad family But they're pro Assad forces as well as I mentioned Christians to you earlier and The u.s.
Is stirring the pot and ever since the Bush administration allocated Congress allocated millions of dollars to overthrow the Assad regime back during the days of Bush and I believe the secret funding has continued and Arms and armed groups have come into Syria from Lebanon That are financed and supported by the u.s.
And Israel and Saudi Arabia, so it's a very complicated situation All right now Okay So we talked about before the break how there's no reason to bet that whoever's next is going to be any more Reasonable than Assad and you know the Baathist regime there I don't know if you would compare more to communists or fascists or whatever, but they're basically More or less the otherwise run a secularist dictatorship there that it's the kind of dictatorship like you said About Saddam Hussein that protect that protected the 10% Christian minority for example that kind of thing There's no reason for them to bet that things would be better for their interests in Lebanon and the Golan Heights In Syria itself relations with Iran any of these you know issues that they have with Assad So why the bet on?
Regime change then it seems like especially from the Israeli point of view.
They rather leave things the way they are in Syria well, but the Israelis and and wiser heads in Washington are Undecided as what would be better because the Assad regime has kept the lid on the on the pot in Syria and if Syria Implodes it's going to it's going to cause that Tidal waves across the Middle East this isn't like Libya, which is stuck out in left field.
It could vanish tomorrow Nobody would notice here is going to affect Iraq.
It's going to affect Turkey Israel Lebanon Jordan and the Saudis So it's a it's a it's a real bombshell waiting to go off But on the other hand there's people are you know?
The devil that you know is better than whatever was going to come in afterwards work or chaos might be another Iraq type of situation But the Israeli pro-israeli groups in Washington are pushing very hard for the Assad family to be overthrown I would have some of the Saudis who hate them and There's a lot and so are the right-wing Lebanese parties, so there's a lot of push going on Well, you know we've talked about this before but certainly it's worth bringing up again at this part of the interview Eric And that is the clean break strategy And then there was another paper for the same think-tank that David Wilmer wrote I forget the name of it but it's the one where he talked about maybe it'd be a good Israeli policy to expedite the chaotic collapse of the Syrian regime and Let the country tear itself apart Then they're weaker they have to do whatever we say or at least they'll be in no position to make any demands for the goal and hides back and so Don't be able to back Hezbollah as strongly that kind of thing.
That's quite right because the Israel's right-wing feels that Stabbing Syria giving him a good kick in the head is going to kill two birds and mix metaphors One is to is to cut off support for Hezbollah in Lebanon the bloody bitter enemy of the Israelis and the other will be to Take Syria out of any chance that it can Oppress its claims to the Israeli occupied Golan Heights, which are legally part of Syria but they contain many of the headwaters of Israel, for example, Sea of Galilee and I don't see any way that the Israelis are going to relinquish these vital water Sources, even though the UN keeps calling for them to give up the Golan Heights Well, so I'm looking at the Libya situation That could be wrong about this, but we've been talking about this too over the past months.
It seems like Now that they've started that war there their choices are only to turn it into an Iraq war or into a Cuban Bay of Pigs crisis where the people that we back are left high and dry and slaughtered in the end or something, so Given that choice the Americans will stay forever.
In fact, Stephen Waltz new piece of foreign policy says Yeah, how are we ever gonna get out of this thing?
Remember if this is the Kosovo war again, like a lot of people are making that analogy We still have troops there after ten years as peacekeeping force and whatever How are we ever gonna get out of Libya?
And I wonder whether I guess first of all whether you agree with that or have something to say about that But then how that also applies to Syria because you know I it sounds crazy to put troops in in Libya or Syria, but so maybe that's why it's plausible, you know Well, yeah, Libya as I was saying earlier easy You knock off Qaddafi and you have half of Libya at least which has the oil in it That's the rebellious eastern part of Libya based in Benghazi That's what the West wants.
It's the French used to call it Chad, which is just south of Libya Which has uranium and oil deposits, which is one of the things that this Libyan intervention is about the French used to call it Chad utio, which is useful Chad and Chad in utio, which is useless Chad Same thing applies to to Libya, too So you could really just forget about Qaddafi and let him way shake his fists off and Tripoli I know all the oils at the other end and the US and Britain and France are already pretty well running that government They're so the Saudis in the Gulf, but Eric back in the day I don't I mean, I don't know all about the history of French politics and whatever But they didn't care whatsoever about just saying like you say, yeah useful chat We're gonna go in there kill whoever we need to take whatever we want same kind of policy in Algeria or whatever But the American Empire has and and NATO now they have this whole PR program where we only ever do this for your own good and to help you and to build you a Purple-fingered democracy and all that and if they're not there to give a purple-fingered democracy Then it starts to look like plain old French imperialism, right?
So they have to follow that whole, you know PR narrative about Staying to make sure that everything's okay That's right Scott.
Do you there always has to be a popular justification and a war?
Justification, you know, we're really back full circle to the Victorian days in England when Britain used to invade these little countries Around the world and claim they were doing it to spread Christianity and to bring bring lights to the benighted heathen natives it's exactly the same thing and But the u.s.
Here is stepping back a bit and is letting its NATO partners do Front for this operation effect French Parliament just voted yesterday to continue the war and their reports that Gaddafi is Gonna cry uncle and some kind of deal is going to be paid They're still trying to kill him But I think clearly Libya is going to fall in under control of the Western powers and its oil Syria is a different story Syria has been a thorn in the side of the West because it's been very disobedient refused to follow American Dictates or orders from Washington for decades and then now they're being taught a lesson just the way Saddam was But as far as putting troops in there, is that too crazy by half for these for even living to do it not Syria.
Oh, I think so It's the first of all Syria has an army that can fight shoot back It's old and antiquated, but the Syrians are pretty good fighters in there.
So Americans would think twice about sending troops into Libya.
I don't know what the troops would do there I don't know who they'd be supporting unless they've got some stooges on the shelf, you know in northern, Virginia Oh, they can parachute into Damascus and proclaim themselves a new Libyan Democratic government right now There's no Democratic forces.
There are no forces that anybody knows of in Libya that are kosher and sweet and pro-western and talking Democracy in Syria you have very angry factions So what would the American troops do there?
But as having said that there is a an impulse in Washington on the Republican far right Senators like Lindsey Graham and low IQ senators and congressmen who are Urging that the Americans do send troops into Syria without having a little first iota of knowledge about the country Yeah, well, I'm that's kind of what I fear is that You know if assuming the Baathist regime falls Which I'm all for the people of Syria overthrow in the state there if they can and make their own Hopefully less evil one or whatever, you know, that's all good but if if it seems like you know Western intervention would only make it more likely that they would be ignorantly picking and choosing people to Support who you know don't have any kind of natural claim on power or have much less of one than they get with American support that kind of thing and then when the whole place is a mess when the Chaotic collapse is expedited.
Well, then you have your excuse to I mean, I don't know It maybe is it possible the Iraq war made this kind of thing just too out of fashion even in DC or it seems to Me like these people are crazy, man They'll do as many wars and regime changes and occupations as they can till the dollar breaks, right?
Well, we're in a state of a perpetual motion machine for for conflict we've militarized our foreign policy to the point where Hillary Clinton sounding bloodthirsty and making all kinds of threats and the you know, the Joint Chiefs of Staff are making foreign policy for the United States and So we have we have a war party there's no doubt about in Washington and it's ardently supported by the military-industrial conflict Complex, I don't want to sound like some kind of lefty when I say that but general Eisenhower weren't warned us against it And we see it today They want more war they want more arms And if the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq may may be winding down or abating a bit Well, they'll find new wars and the new chic hotspot is in North Africa and in West Africa And in the Horn of Africa meaning Somalia and Yemen Well as far as the military-industrial complex goes I got it you know you don't have to be any kind of political persuasion to go look at heritage org and a e i dot org and the Washington Institute for Near East Policy and the Center for Security Policy and the Council on Foreign Relations for that matter and look at where They get their money from they have to disclose it or something Maybe I don't know but they do they have a donate page that almost all those sites will tell you where they get their money And there's a bunch of arms manufacturers and oil companies for every single one of them You know it go back to 1900 when the great arms merchants of Basil's are off notably as a merchant of death Did exactly the same thing he promoted wars and then sold his artillery To the different warring parties and ammunition and so It's it's the same old story Unfortunately, they're the counter bad counterbalancing forces in Washington are much too weak and not enough people are standing up and saying wait a minute Enough with the wars.
We're bankrupt.
We've got a saving It was start saving not spending money and blowing money on these wars that produce nothing but profits for the arms industries Well, you know, I guess There's a little bit of you know silver lining in the idea that maybe in DC They're thinking more and more of what they want to fight really is just drone wars and leave all the big occupations out for the time being I mean still horrible, but it seems like it means, you know Less people being killed and then you know I of course it makes it easier for them to escalate a war like the war in Somalia You just mentioned Africom right there, you know making their real bones In Libya as their first big mission, but here they are expanding CIA and and JSOC drone missions into Somalia and bragging about it to the British press at least Kind of makes it easier for him to just spread it around I guess it won't be long before the entire southern hemisphere This planet is just got Reaper drones patrolling their airspace at all times ready to drop hellfire missiles on anybody steps out of line You know, well, they just killed a whole bunch of people in in Pakistan Yesterday so very much true there these drone and special forces units that can go in Are much more flexible.
They don't need large bases and you know, the military has its fashions just like Paris couturiers and The fashion now is special forces and drones and robotics and these kind of quick lightning rates So we're gonna see that for quite a while the problem for the regular army is that we've got no enemies left So, you know, no big enemies.
Nobody's got armored divisions and artillery units facing us You know the Americans Americans have not suffered an enemy air attack since 1952 you can imagine that the Korean War Since then not one enemy has dared go into the air to suppose the Opposing except over North Vietnam But it didn't attack American ground troops So we command the air everywhere and that's it's just the way the British rule the world through the Royal Navy Our Air Force really ruled for the air Yeah Well, and yet they can't really I don't know you say Libya looks like it's gonna fall soon to you But it looks to me like air powers proving that no you need the French Foreign Legion or the US Marine Corps if you really Want to get it done You know, you're right.
You're right, but believe me the French Foreign Legion is there the CIA has people there the British For from the from before day one stirring and they've been there for 10 years stirring up trouble So these forces are gradually Advancing on Tripoli and they are targeting Qaddafi and they will I think I think they're gonna kill him pretty soon Yeah, oh, you know what I wanted to ask you about to you mentioned on the show maybe last time we spoke a couple times ago about how the I Forget if it was Likud or somebody to the right of them in Israel had given marching orders to Robert Kagan you know author of great many horrible things about why America should be an empire and that Given his marching orders.
He helped drum up and organize the neoconservative war party Propaganda machine against Pakistan because of their worries over the so-called Islamic bomb And I was just wondering if you could tell me a place where I could read about that Kagan specifically the neocons and the Israelis and in Pakistan I Can't go off the top of my head give you the source for this You put my email address.
I will do that for sure Sure There have been a number of reports on this Well, I remember is Robert Kagan and Michael O'Hanlon back in October September October 2007 wrote a piece for the New York Times saying maybe we need to go in there and seize their nukes and So it must have been some reporting from back then tying him to I guess You may I think he said it was Avigdor Lieberman the foreign minister that he was I was just you took the words out of my mouth.
It was Lieberman who gave a speech I don't remember the exact date of it But he gave it gave a speech where he said that he cited Pakistan as one of the leading threats to Israel This is the first time that this has come up and but that was heard very widely moved around you know right-wing conservative Jewish circles in the United States and suddenly We're very sensitive to any perceived threats to Israel and to now that in Pakistan was put on the list and when he hears this more and more now that That Pakistan is a danger and that's where a lot of this talk about grabbing Pakistan's nuclear weapons.
It's coming from All right.
Well good deal Thanks very much for that.
Appreciate that My pleasure all as always everybody.
That's Eric Margulies Eric Margulies calm his website.
The books are American Raj and war at the top of the world
