All right, y'all.
Welcome back to the show.
It's anti-war radio.
And now we turn to our foreign correspondent, Eric Margulies.
He's the author of War at the Top of the World and American Raj keeps the website at ericmargulies.com and he's been to every country that you've ever heard there was a war there, I think pretty much, uh, right now I want to ask all about Syria cause I don't know very much about it and I certainly don't know very much about what's going on with that revolution over there.
Welcome back to the show, Eric.
How are you doing?
Thank you, Scott.
You know more about the Middle East than practically anyone else in the media, but onward.
Yeah, well, I guess people can take that and, and do their own comparative math about what that really means.
But, uh, yeah.
So what is going on in Syria there?
There's obviously a massive protest movement, a lot of brutality.
Uh, how successful do you think the protesters are going to be in overthrowing the state there?
Well, it's really hard to say.
Um, uh, the, uh, the establishment in Syria, the, uh, the Assad regime is very deeply entrenched and it's been there for as long as anybody can remember for, for more than a generation.
And, um, it's not just the Assad family, uh, that's, that's running the show there.
It controls all of the intelligence networks.
It controls the, the military and particularly the, uh, the elite, the units of the military presidential guard, et cetera, but it's also supported by the, the, the, as they're called in Iran or the, uh, the merchant class, which plays a very important role, which wants stability, uh, and they're supported by the, uh, the minority that's a sort of a Shia offshoot minority, which makes up about 13% of the population from which the Assad family comes.
And finally, by, uh, the Christians in Syria who represent about 10% of the population to regard the Assad family as their protectors, and they saw what happened to the Christians of Iraq after Saddam Hussein, who was also a protector of the Christians of Iraq was overthrown and how the Christians are now being driven out.
So, uh, opposition to the Assad regime is by far from, uh, from being universal.
So in other words, this, uh, Alawite sect that, that backs the Baathists, this, uh, or that makes up the Baathist, uh, ruling clique, basically they have that support.
I mean, I would think typically, right.
If you have that kind of, that small of a minority ruling everybody else, it's because they're backed by a foreign power like the United States or something like that.
But in this case, I guess you're saying it's more like they, there are enough of the other factions who see the Alawites as the, uh, kind of brokers and compromisers in the middle to keep everybody from fighting.
They basically accept their role or like the Christians, for example.
That's right, Scott.
The devil we know, uh, particularly in the Middle East is usually better than the one we don't.
And the, uh, and that's from the point of view of most of the different factions inside Syria, you're saying.
That's correct.
Uh, and, uh, Syria has made steady progress, uh, under the Assad rule.
Could it have made more with better government?
I'm sure it could have, but, um, nevertheless, it has made important, particularly economic, uh, uh, progress.
And the, the atmosphere of repression is somewhat lighter, though, still very strong, but you have to, but you have a, uh, opposed to this.
You have a, um, the majority of the population are Sunni Muslims who feel they've been excluded from power, which they have in part.
Uh, and, uh, they, there's the Muslim brotherhood, which is driven very deep underground, which, which rose up in 1982, where, uh, allegedly between 10 and 20,000 were killed in Hama by the government, by government troops.
I was there.
I didn't see such mass killing, but, um, there's a, so there's an explosive factor there, and some of these Sunni underground groups are very extreme.
Well, so, uh, then when it comes to the protest movement, how likely do you think it is that they'll actually be able to dislodge Assad and his group?
Uh, it depends, uh, entirely on the military.
Uh, we'll, uh, how so far the military has been backing Assad.
Now, beyond what I just mentioned, there's another factor at play.
We've talked about it before.
Uh, and that is foreign armed groups are coming into Syria.
There's no doubt about it.
Uh, they're coming from Lebanon where there's a strongly anti-Syrian right-wing group under the Lebanese, some Lebanese Christians, not all, some, uh, and, uh, being supported by Israel, Saudi Arabia, and probably by the United States, because we know for a fact that the Bush administration authorized and spend money to overthrow the Syrian government.
And the U S is running with Britain is running a very sophisticated, uh, social networking program to get to the young people and get them to turn against the government that's been in the, in the works going out for a long time.
So they're outside pressures, outside forces.
The Syrian government says that all this fighting is coming from outside armed groups, uh, which are called terrorists.
I wonder where they learned that term.
Uh, I don't know.
I don't think it's not all outsiders.
It's insiders too, but it's a very messy situation.
Well, in a sense, I mean, the more we do intervene, the better off the, uh, Baathist regime is there, uh, if they can point to outside influence.
Uh, so tell me more about the, uh, American intervention in this thing, as far as you can tell.
Well, the, under the Bush administration, uh, I believe Bush and Cheney, uh, resolved when, when there was the last Israeli Lebanese war, um, the, uh, in oh six, correct.
Uh, the, uh, Bush white house, according to my sources determined that, uh, Bush and Cheney under, under guidance from Israel decided that there were suggestions from Israel that, uh, this would be an excellent time to attack Syria as well.
And the Israelis were getting geared up to attack and Syria overthrow the Assad government, uh, for two reasons, a, to try and stop Assad support for the Palestinians, they figured this would be a good way to squelch any more Palestinian demands.
Also the cement is really control over the Golan Heights, which it, uh, he occupies illegally, which used to be terrorist Syrian territory.
Um, but, uh, on the last minute, uh, it suddenly dawned on the Americans and the Israelis for that matter, that, okay, great.
We'll overthrow the Assad government, but who's going to replace them?
Who can we put in there?
And there was one big neon light flashing Muslim brotherhood, Muslim brotherhood, Hamas, Hezbollah, et cetera.
And it scared them.
And they decided wisely as it turned out, uh, not to get involved.
But this same interventionist impulse is now surfacing under the, the peace president, Barack Obama.
Well, you know, I guess I can see the, you know, one strategy from the Israeli point of view would be whether it's, uh, the Muslim brotherhood is the most, uh, you know, organized force to take the Baathist place or not, that if they get rid of the Baathist, basically we'll have all those factions you were describing at the beginning, all fighting over each other.
And like, uh, David Williams had recommended, we'll expedite the chaotic collapse and reduce Syria to a bunch of warring tribes, less than even a state.
And then they'll, the Israelis will be able to have it, you know, however they want.
Scott, that is exactly the theory of the, uh, of the early 20th century Zionist who's the Israel's left-wingers call Zionist fascist, Vladimir Jabotinsky, who was the ideological founder of the today's Likud party in Israel.
And Jabotinsky was a militant extremist, a hardliner.
He always said his theory was, he said, all the Arab states are fragile mosaics and all they need is one big blow and they'll fall apart into their little parts.
And then Israel will, will emerge as the dominant power in the entire Mideast and control Mideast oil.
That was his theory.
And that is the secretly or quietly, the, the belief, the credo of today's Likud party.
And, uh, all the neocons in Washington are repeating this in different forms, whispering it into the ears of the white house that all these country needs is one big bang.
Well, we've seen in Libya that this is not exactly the case, but nevertheless, uh, Syria, Iraq, those countries are fragile mosaics and they could fall into shards and fragments.
Well, and you know, how's the Iraq war working out for you?
Israel?
I mean, it's the question, right?
Honestly, you know, as part of the whole clean break strategy of the American neocons and, and Ariel Sharon did his part to help last into that thing.
And I guess I'll ask you on the other side of this break, whether they're better off, whether anyone there, regardless of ideology could thinking for a minute, expect that they would be better off with a massive revolution in Syria.
Maybe the Syrians would be, that's another question.
I'll ask Eric Margulies right after this.
All right.
So welcome back to the show.
It's anti-war radio.
I'm looking at John Edwards mugshot right now on MSNBC.
Of course, he had just got elected.
He could commit any crime in the whole world and there'd be no law that could possibly touch him.
That's what you get for losing dude.
All right.
Uh, so, uh, Eric Margulies is on the line and we're talking about, uh, the Syrian uprising, uh, and of course the American and Israeli responses to it.
I guess, um, you know, it's hard to ask you Eric to read a Benjamin Netanyahu's mind on this or what have you, but you know, best I can tell about that guy.
He's not stupid or crazy.
I mean, he's mean, and I could see that leading him to do some stupid things in essence, but most of the stupid things he does are on purpose.
If you take my meaning, you know, and would he really risk, uh, helping, trying to get involved in this thing now?
Well, it's, it's, it's a strong temptation for Israel because, uh, the Israeli military right wing establishment has convinced itself that, uh, Syria is behind it's deadly enemies, Hezbollah in Lebanon, which has kicked Israelis derriere twice and, uh, Hamas in, uh, Palestine and in Gaza.
And if we can only knock out the Syrians, we'd knock out these movements.
And of course, behind them, the Israelis believe or tell everybody that it's really the wicked Iranians who are using Syria as a cat's paw.
This is very exaggerated, but nevertheless, the Israelis believe it.
And one more blow, the Israeli military wants revenge on Hezbollah.
It's looking at another war in Lebanon, uh, and it's long been gunning for Syria.
So, and as we were just talking before the break, it's the Jabotinsky theory that give them, really hit them hard enough and they'll fall apart, which is probably true.
So there's a strong impulse in Israel to do this.
And Netanyahu is sitting in the driver's seat.
He's got everything going his way.
He stared down the American president.
Uh, he's, uh, Israel's on a roll.
He's getting more money from Congress.
Uh, he's got the best arms in the world.
Well, he may want to use his power to deal once and for all with a bitter enemy.
Well, do you know anything about any intervention by them so far?
Uh, well, there was the attack on the so-called Syrian reactor, which I, Oh, no.
Well, that was nonsense, but that was back in 06.
I guess I meant, uh, you know, during this uprising, are they?
No, no, I have no, uh, current, uh, evidence reports on that.
I have received some, uh, confidential, uh, information from Congress, from the U S Congress, which got it obviously from an intelligence briefing about how, uh, Western I read us British, French, maybe Israeli, uh, and Saudi, uh, uh, governments are backing armed groups inside of Syria.
Uh, so, but it was, uh, that vague the way it said it was, uh, Western governments.
Uh, well, meaning, uh, meaning us and, uh, and it's being paid for by the Saudis who are deathly afraid of revolution.
And, uh, they're playing the same role as the Austro Hungarian empire did in 1789 in Europe, uh, the force of reaction.
Uh, yeah, well, and, uh, you look at what's going on in, uh, Libya over there.
You know, people point to all the, uh, oil interests, but I still kind of maintain that the reason Obama went for it, that the conversation in the white house must have been that we've got to get out ahead of this story because it's too obvious that uncle Sam is the bad guy in virtually every single one of these uprisings, and we've got to confuse the issue and make the narrative more complicated at the very least by taking the side of the rebel somewhere.
And after all, Gaddafi never bought that much military equipment from Lockheed or whatever.
So he's expendable.
And plus you take the oil.
The new interventionist, uh, the new rationale for intervention in the Middle East is humanitarian assistance.
A writer named Peck just came out with a very good book on that subject.
Uh, that's the banner where we're doing it for humanitarian reasons.
And, uh, but clearly, uh, Libya was a part of the growing counter-revolution in the Middle East.
It's seen, was seen as a very soft, easy target because the Libyans couldn't really fight back.
And our military likes to fight against people who can't fight back.
We've become, uh, dangerously used to doing that.
That's taking attacking little countries.
Yeah.
They don't remember they lost Iraq a couple of years ago.
And, uh, they don't remember Vietnam and, uh, the, but anyway, the, uh, so Libya was, and Libya had oil.
So, uh, it was a perfect reason.
And president Obama's claims that there were to Congress that we are not really actively involved in that war.
We're just in the background or baloney because, uh, the U S pays almost half of NATO's expenses.
Uh, and, uh, it's providing the, uh, targeting systems, the, the, the laser guided bombs, because NATO's run out of bombs is the air to air refueling, the AWACS radar planes, the electronic intelligence, occasional air strikes, all this is being done by the U S plus, you know, CIA and J soccer running all over the place down there.
That's right.
Yes, they are.
So it's disingenuous to use that nice word, uh, what the president is saying.
Yeah.
Well, so Syria will be a good part of this too.
Is that look, everybody, uncle Sam's on the side of the protesters.
I suggest Iran and nevermind Bahrain.
I've never mind Bahrain where terrible human rights offenses are happening.
And yet we are mum about it.
Not only that, but we're letting the Saudis crush, uh, any kind of dissidents there and, uh, arresting the latest arrest and torture of nurses and doctors.
Uh, it's abomination for worse than is happening in Libya, I think.
Uh, but, uh, you know, hypocrisy is at arrogant, adamant.
And what I've said before in this program is one of the sources of violent anti-Americanism across the Muslim world.
As they'd say in my most recent book is this, this two faced, uh, hypocritical policies of ours.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, really it's mostly just for domestic consumption, right?
Nobody in the world is buying it that we're here to help you anymore.
No, no, uh, but certainly not Europe or, or Asia, but everybody's just kind of turning their back to this.
Though, uh, China and Russia again today issued a very strong warning, uh, not to intervene in the middle East.
Um, they both realized they made a terrible mistake in allowing the UN to authorize some kind of security council, authorize some kind of humanitarian intervention in Libya.
They were hornswoggle.
They weren't paying attention.
And now they're getting riled up and it adds another layer of danger to this situation.
Yeah.
Well, you know, as long as we're on Libya is, do you see any outcome of this thing that could end shortly?
I mean, I guess they're saying, you know, Congress just banned ground troops or whatever, but.
I'm thinking that that ain't going to stop them.
And I'm thinking also it's going to be necessary because if they're just trying to hunt him from the air, they probably won't be able to get him.
And even if they get him with a bomb, then what are they going to do?
Just turn the country over to these rebels, whoever they are and call it a victory and go.
I don't believe it.
Yes.
They're hoping to kill Gaddafi, assassinate, murder.
Let's use the right words.
Uh, you know, suddenly murdering foreign leaders has become kosher.
Uh, it was always an outrage before, but it began, well, it's going on for a long time.
But most recently the attempt to, the Iraq war was started by airstrikes against the house in which Saddam Hussein was believed to be having dinner.
Yeah.
Cause Chalabi said so.
And they killed a bunch of women and children at that house.
Exactly.
What now this has become legit for the U S to go and strike.
God help it.
If somebody, if some Libyans came over and attacked the white house, uh, this would be the terrorism of the decade.
But, um, that's going to, I think Gaddafi is going to be killed.
I really do.
Maybe by his own men.
Why?
Well, then they're going to take these, these hodgepodge of people in Benghazi.
Uh, and they're going to cobble together some kind of government.
Like we have in Iraq, government of stooges and yes men, uh, and to put them in charge of Libya.
So basically they're just going to pretend that the capital of the whole country is over in the East.
And as long as they're running that, they don't care what goes on in Tripoli.
They're not going to try to occupy Tripoli or they may know they may occupy Tripoli.
And then they, and then of course they could, they can always call in foreign assistance.
We need foreign advisors to help us.
And, uh, then income the Brits and the Americans and the French are itching to get their hands on Libya's low sulfur oil and, uh, to, to send a message to the Arab world, uh, you know, don't, don't get us riled up.
Uh, or else.
Well, you know, I saw, um, Tim Paul Lenti apparently never saw a map of the Middle East before, and they were asking him about Iraq and he started calling it Iran and got all confused about who's back and who and where.
And he was saying, yeah, uh, right now secretary Gates is working with the Iranians to invite us to stay, which in a way I guess could be a Freudian slip except he doesn't know that much about it.
But, uh, so, uh, what I wondered though was, uh, it seemed like, okay, so here's your talking points.
Tim Paul Lenti go out there and say, oh yeah, we're staying in Iraq.
That's for sure.
Because they're going to invite us to stay.
What do you think?
Oh, absolutely.
They will.
Uh, the U S embassy in Baghdad is being doubled in size to, to, I'm not sure whether that one or the U S embassy in Kabul are going to be the biggest in the world, but you don't, you don't think that the Iraqis will stick by their insistence on the SOFA agreement?
No, no, their government will be changed if they dare do that.
And, uh, you're pro, you know, us run people will be put in and the U S is going to stay in Iraq and Afghanistan at infinitum.
That's Eric Margulies at ericmargulies.com.
Thanks so much for your time again, Eric.
My pleasure, Scott.
Cheerio.
