I yield back the balance of my time All right, everybody's anti-war radio i'm scott horton and our next guest is david spiro r n His website is david spiro r n dot com Uh, he's the author of the book the art of getting well maximizing health and well-being when you have a chronic illness And he writes political stuff over at dissident voice dot org Uh, I think we spoke in january about left and right against the empire And now is uh, don't fear the right they are potential class allies written from the left from july 15th 2010 again on the website at dissident voice Dot org welcome to the show david.
How are you?
Yeah, i'm doing good.
Thanks for having me Well, thanks very much for joining us here.
Uh, sorry about the delay there Um, but you hear that speech that's yeah some it started out really, uh, you know poetry wise But I don't really know about those things but it sounded like a poem at first.
Anyway, uh, yeah good stuff and you know, uh, It makes a good uh Jumping off point here that ron paul uh clip uh Because what he's saying is uh, the kind of thing most of that at least I think That it's a very kind of centrist speech that he was giving really that it's it Incorporates the very best parts of the left and the right it doesn't make him a so-called moderate uh, you know bloodthirsty warmonger like lindsey graham or Joe, lieberman or something he's in the center But up at the top toward freedom instead of down at the bottom toward totalitarianism where those guys are and um, I think that's the same kind of mindset that I See in your writing here that uh You know you like like like me and like ron paul You put all the emphasis on the war and the bill of rights first and and culture wars later right and and the and this last this new article, uh, don't fear the right is Is sort of disagrees with what ron paul said at the end there about this is all going to be uh Can be done with through peaceful and intellectual means I mean, that's what most people have to do but I think that we all agree that we're moving into a Or we have moved into a police state in a large degree in a warfare state which he said and and I think we need to Involve the people who are fighting those wars and carrying out that police state and that's what the the oath keepers are doing that's that was the essence of my article the new article was about the the oath keepers, which is a group of active duty and retired military and uh police Who pledged to follow the constitution?
And to not carry out unconstitutional orders And I would rather have police like that than you know, then blackwater or the SWAT team and so that's It's interesting though that they have been attacked Like most groups that are identified as right whether they really are right or not Are you know that they're attacked as being a militia or as being racist or a lot of things that really?aren't true um because the um Although they haven't come out Fully against the wars and things they do Encourage soldiers to think for themselves and police officers as well.
And I think we could use that Yeah, well, um, and you know what it may be You know in in the broadest sense a right phenomenon, but what does that really mean?
You know, especially from kind of leftist definitions.
I saw noam chomsky saying well, wait a minute.
These are all Working-class people shouldn't they be coming to us and why aren't we reaching out to them?
Why are we sitting around condemning them and calling them racists all day and whatever when?
We ought to be their heroes.
Maybe we're doing something wrong y'all Well, I I didn't know that chomsky had said that but I I agree.
I mean chomsky's a pretty smart guy.
So um, and and there's a lot of uh, Well, I think as you've often called it that you know, the culture wars and cultural prejudice that keeps a lot of People who at least identify themselves as left from reaching out to people that they should be reaching out to that We really have lots in common with because You know because culturally they're different Or because we agree disagree on certain points.
I mean, it's really interesting to read the comments section on dissonant voice would be with the uh the first article of Left and right against the empire or in this article the comments could get pretty angry Yeah, well hold it hold it right there man the music's playing we gotta go out to this break Okay, but uh, we'll be right back with david spiro from dissidentvoice.org on anti-war radio after this y'all So All right, y'all welcome back to the show it's anti-war radio i'm scott worden i'm talking with david spiro from dissidentvoice.org Org we're talking about left and right and the empire and the war and all that kind of thing, you know, uh, Well, go ahead.
You're talking david about the war in the comment section over your article proposing that people get their priorities straight well, yeah, and most of the most of the complimentary, um, you know letters that I got comments that we received came from libertarians, but not Exclusively and you know, there were some there were some people who identified themselves as very left Who who said that?
Yeah, we need to work with libertarians and we need to work with conservatives as much as possible but with real questions about how that can be done, especially with what's sort of happening in the In the in the part of the political spectrum that identifies itself as conservative that a lot of them have got are you know?very interventionist very State is very you know, um People that it's hard to see how you could work with.
I wonder if you're um, are are you familiar with the nolan chart?
Yes So for people not familiar, you know your high school history teacher if they teach you, you know It's probably your gym coach in the first place who doesn't know anything But uh, then if he teaches anything he shows you this left right political spectrum and tells you you got to fit somewhere in the reasonable center between stalin and hitler on the left right spectrum and what the nolan chart does is it adds, uh, I forget which is the x and which is the y-axis, but it adds a second dimension uh to to these questions and uh can you know if you rank right at the very top in the center you rank as a plumb line libertarian and down at the bottom is where the communists and the fascists meet with their total statism and So it's it's useful for thought experiment purposes.
I don't even know if the questionnaire even includes foreign policy I think it doesn't and that's probably its major flaw.
But anyway, it it kind of shows the possibility there of Um, you know, in fact, I would say foreign policy, of course is most important um that in the bill of rights and you see the possibility for for where if if You know a conservative democrat like joe lieberman and a liberal republican like john mccain Can get it together and form coalitions in order to kill people all around the world forever Then the people who are opposed to those things ought to also be able to form those coalitions I mean, that's the what to me is the natural party distinction.
It's not between uh, you know country and rock and roll It's between whether you're on the side of elite power and the national state The empire or you're on the side of individuals.
Yeah, and I think we need to move Now we're at the point where we need to start really thinking about how are we going to do that?
In practice and you know There are issues that will need to work out and actually some of that has come up in the in the comments section of this last article of um You know, how do you feel about?
Social security for example, I'm just gonna you know, how do you feel about you know?
Can we can we work out these differences so that we can?
You know ally um, and I think we can but we really need to be talking to each other and and you know People need to get out of their comfort zone You know and be willing to talk to people that maybe Both in terms of their ideas and also in terms of maybe their cultural attitudes and things are a little different And it's really it's a challenge and i'm going to keep writing about this stuff and hopefully we can get some of these things going Yeah, well, you know when it comes down to it, there are some intractable questions such as you know abortion and the role of the federal government in regulating business and You know, whatever but for me, uh Well, I mean obviously that's part of it, you know the second the second thing there but most of these um, you know cultural Divisions I think are basically just bogus and this is what makes the two-party system a scam is that everybody's divided not among Uh people who actually believe that the government ought to be doing this or that about the important things but just about You know their kind of cultural distinctions, you know, whether they wear boots or sandals, you know crap like that Yeah, well, I I mean from from the emotional Content the anger and that I see in these comments and that you see when you go to say a tea party rally um You know that there's going to be some work to do To for people to connect.
Um And to work out these things and whether it's even possible or not.
I don't really know.
I mean so far what I see is like You know left right so what's actually happened is like libertarians and greens or libertarians and far leftist, you know, alexander coburn type um, which I guess I would count myself as one of and those people can see it and like the sort of the Average conservative and average liberal aren't seeing it at this point.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Yeah well, that's exactly right, but then again the people who are the most ideological are the ones who do the most writing and Can help to lead the way on things like that and I know alex coburn has always been a ron paul fan I think he's just I think he says he's just a rogue texas congressman fan You know and just likes that style of politics that ron represents there But so that brings me actually to where we started and what's really where the rubber meets the road I think the one of the major important questions, which is Can the left get behind a coalition to support ron paul for president next time after all the last time?
He said over and over and over again.
I'm not trying to abolish your social security and your medicare and your medicaid I'm trying to shore it up by abolishing the empire And you know, he had a proposal to let people who were under the age of 25 opt out of social security if they wanted but he always was opposed to the george bush cato institute proposal to Privatize quote-unquote social security by taking it all out of government bonds and putting it in the stock market He was never for that fascism, you know, and so I mean this is a guy who's basically made his offer to the left Look i'm not you know I might try to abolish the department of education while I debolish the department of homeland security, too Do we have a deal, you know and and that to me is fair enough should be Well, I think yeah, and I think a lot of leftists would I mean Okay, go you go out and actually talk to people about this then during the elections Um, a lot of people would say I would love to see a ron paul dennis kucinich ticket or something like that Or dennis kucinich ron paul ticket, you know and so there are a lot of people like that, but It's going to require work and that's why i'm mainly writing on left sites and things like that Because I you know, that's where I grew up and and that's the audience that I think I can talk to um to and you do see an awful lot of pro-ron paul comments on In the comment sections of like common dreams and other other left sites, you know Not so much like the huffington post or you know, you get more closer to the liberal Center, but you know the leftist counterpunch and places like that.
There is a lot of left support for ron paul Although you know a lot of people also feel and I kind of think that paul is a little bit like kucinich in the sense that they kind of they allow him to to do what he does and they don't crap trash and because It'll keep people they think it'll keep people in the republican party or keep people in the electoral system You know what?
I mean?
Yeah.
Well Boy, i'll tell you what support for ron paul should never translate to support for any other republican I mean boy, that would be horrible um, you know to shore up the republican party there, but uh well, you know and and let me suggest too that when it comes to pat buchanan and uh, you know They're all the different people which I don't even think he's any longer at the american conservative magazine But you know the whole paleo conservative Right and the libertarians as well.
But I mean even just the paleo, right?
I noticed that you know left-wingers get very uncomfortable about you know Having any agreement with somebody like pat buchanan, you know, which you know is understandable If you're a true blue leftist, then you know pat's problematic from your point of view in a lot of ways or whatever But it seems like rather than being nervous about that kind of thing That he would make a great talking point for the left that look I'm, so right that pat buchanan says i'm right I'm, so right that there's a whole group of right-wingers who completely agree with me about how we got to stop the killing of People all the time.
We've got to reinstate the bill of rights before We have no chance to ever again No, I agree with that.
And I think some people I think jane hampshire over at firedog lake, which is a liberal site or a left site, let's say Worked was working with and actually co-signed some articles and papers with grover norquist And I think pat buchanan as well So there are some people doing that.
Yeah right on that's leading the way right there.
That's what we need.
Yeah So it just needs to and it's going to be and it is uncomfortable and it is difficult And I don't think success is guaranteed either You know, um because we are we are talking about a fairly small group of rightists and a fairly small group of leftists there but um But I think that's what we got to try.
Don't you?
Yeah, well, that's my view.
I'll tell you what we're almost out of time for this segment If you want to talk politics more, uh, I could hold you over through the news And and we could go on for another 10 minutes or i'll let you go if you need to go I can do another 10 minutes.
Okay, great.
Well, so why don't you hold on right there everybody?
It's david spiro from dissident voice.org.
We're talking about the left and the right and You know what?
I like to think of as the new realignment in the 1930s.
I learned in school that basically The only people left out of the new deal Alliance were the old classical liberals all the conservatives got on board for it Black and white and and all the different ethnicities Town and country and rich and poor and and wall street and main street and everybody got on board for the new deal And that's really what we need now is that kind of realignment where there's a real consensus That we are going to put peace and the bill of rights first Oh and and then to corporate welfare too, by the way, which means abolishing the central bank But we'll get back to all this with david spiro right after this So All right y'all welcome back to show it's anti-war radio I'm scott horton.
I'm talking with david spiro from dissidentvoice.org Back in january wrote this great one left and right against the empire And he's got a new one called don't fear the right which is a message to the left Uh now david, uh, so here's the thing.
This is never going to happen in a million years, but It's a fun little thought experiment type thing for me.
Anyway, at least it helps me make my point Here's what I want to see happen Have everybody cares about peace in the bill of rights all bum rush the republican party rename it the democratic republicans After thomas jefferson's first real party born in dissent Against the tyranny of john adams alexander hamilton and the federalists And we'll take all the jeffersonian leftists or liberals and all the jeffersonians on the right with the libertarians as the center as instead of uh You know jill lieberman as the center and then we will just name the other party the war party And you guys will be the party of taxation and tyranny police state and mass murder and we'll be the party of individual liberty and peace Well, i'll tell you what call me up and i'll be there but I do think that's rather a long shot Yeah, yeah, it's impossible.
But that shouldn't that really be the division?
I wish people could see it the way I see it seems like we'd win well, there's a there's a control of a massive Incredibly massive media um world out there that Keeps people from seeing that I mean there's television and there's movies and there's you know You go to the movies and there's ads for the military, you know You know right there before you see your movie and and there's news and there's actually the fox news radio that you have on on this network And it's pretty hard to get that message out and I and i'm that's what we got to work on is How how can we get to that point because people don't people don't change their minds that easily, you know And they've been hearing this for this, you know patriotic.
Um with the word jingoistic kind of what?you know, let's go kill everybody kind of um Um ideas and education and publicity for decades now so it's It's going to take a lot of work and I like you're doing a lot.
I mean you're doing the best you can I mean this show i'm really happy to be on this show because you're consistent about that and we just need you know, we need more voices, but uh, I don't see exactly where those there aren't a lot of outlets like liberty radio for these voices to go on There are some though and and with the internet, I mean there will there are more and more so Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's impossible I just think it's you know, especially people i'm like i'm almost 60 So I mean it's like you get trapped in old ways of doing things like let's get let's get this in the newspaper Let's get this in them, you know an article in a magazine or something like that And it doesn't really seem to work anymore you get it's very difficult to compete I mean, it's very difficult to compete with the you know, the war party message Yeah, well and you know I gotta hand it to the war party too.
They really did good with this obama guy, you know I mean the george bush scam was so transparent, you know george bush's son.
Oh, yeah.
He's a cowboy He's a middle-class guy just like you and whatever and that was ridiculous, but that worked but Well, it did.
Oh it worked just as well, but the obama thing is more plausible on its face So, you know, he's not george bush's son, you know what I mean?
And boy, it worked so well, and you know, I saw cindy sheehan Uh bless her she put this thing out on the facebook about how yeah anti-war protest at the white house Cancelled for lack of interest Oh, man, they can't even get anybody to show up.
You know, I saw a Hardcore leftist I think it was in the comment section at anti-war.com said man those dirty hippies in the 60s Did more to fight the war in the state before breakfast than all y'all people have ever done Pathetic and that was with democrats in the white house.
I was with lyndon johnson in the white house, you know most of it Well, you're right, I mean that was a stroke of genius with obama and I don't think it was accidental either I think you know some Some more party types found Him when he was just getting started and and groomed him to you know for this role and goldman facts and others Poured hundreds of millions of dollars into his campaigns and made it happen.
And hey at what point you think they started grooming him I think before he was first elected to the state senate in uh illinois Really?
I mean, it's probably when he was in harvard, you know, I haven't even really read about that I probably should I just figured only goofy right-wingers had written about it So why bother but I read like the newsweek account was that he gave a great speech Uh after he was the state senator and some democratic party clintonite types said to him.
Hey, man, he gave a pretty good speech Why don't you come with us?
But that was the newsweek version who knows what's real?
Yeah, and that's true of a lot of things that happen, you know And when things happen that just don't seem quite right like how did this guy who is this guy?
How did he get to be president at the age of 45 or whatever it is?
You think you know, maybe there was something else going on there, you know that we weren't told Well, the american people certainly wanted to believe in the hope and change I mean at least we got to give them credit for that that they knew that I mean none of them wanted to take Responsibility for being former supporters really but they knew they didn't want the bush cheney era to go on anymore Something had to change.
They just didn't know what and then they they went for the easy thing and it didn't You know, there's a bruce coburn song.
Um I can't remember the name of it, but he's got this line in there I see I have seen the the flame of hope flashing in the eyes of the hopeless and that was the cruelest blow of all You know and that's the way you feel when you look at you know Anybody who had some hope for obama would feel you know, yeah.
Wow.
We got this guy and it's worse than ever Well, I kind of hope that that's true that people at least are starting I mean, I I would hate the idea that they just all drop out, you know Well, gee, I tried my best and all I did was help get another, you know, bad guy elected or whatever but at least if they learn the truth that Hey, wow, so it might as well have been john mccain, huh?
Then, you know, there's there's a perspective There that's uh, you know progress in the mind of the average You know left right believe in american if we can give them an alternative, you know I'm thinking of the younger folks now, you know that we really that came out for barack and are totally You know burned out and turned off at this point if we can give them another way to go But I don't that may not be another candidate.
I mean, although you know, uh, a good candidate like ron paul would be would help but I mean I think about Like one of the militias that I wrote about in this article up in maine um on the author carolyn chute created it's called the second main militia and she says and it's definitely anti, um, police state and anti-corporate and um, you know, it's a bunch of poor people with guns and um I think that that's something we could do even in the cities.
Maybe you could have an unarmed militia, you know But I mean, I think we we need to we need to organize that we may need to find other ways to organize Yeah, well and you know, that's really facing the hard truth there that like ron paul always says this is all going to change And it won't be because you listen to me It'll be because like I told you when you weren't listening to me all empires fall down man This is how it goes and now, you know what you're talking about is well How are we going to take care of ourselves after that?you know, this is why I think the focus on ideology is so important because you know when times are really bad people are uh easily led by demagogues and and easily led to blame the powerless instead of the powerful for their predicament and Embrace authoritarianism and stuff and and who knows how bad it's really going to get economically here, but it could get really bad It's already, you know, pretty consistently high unemployment for a few years in a row now I don't see that getting any better anytime soon.
I think that the You know the the really powerful folks in this country made a decision about 20 30 years ago to that they didn't to send the good jobs away because they the labor movement was the You know, the unions were were the biggest thing that was standing in their way of doing what they wanted.
So they broke them You know, they just they just sent all those closed all those factories down or most of them And so I don't see that coming back if you don't have if you don't have productive good paying jobs.
I don't see how You know Krugman and some of these liberal economists saying, you know more stimulus more stimulus more What what are you stimulating?
There's there's there's no, you know, the underlying economy is Pretty screwed and we need to sort of rebuild it And I just I mean, I just think we need to be organizing at the you know at the local level and at every level to try to take care of ourselves and that's kind of Just this morning I was on the old keeper's website to see what's happening over there real quick.
Sorry, we're about okay But anyways people are arguing about these things people are talking about these things And so, you know, i'm just encouraging people get out of your comfort zone talk to people that you don't normally talk to And find out where you've got the common ground.
All right, everybody.
That's uh, david spiro
