Alright y'all, welcome back to the show.
It's Anti-War Radio.
I'm Scott Horton, and on the line is Carol Moore.
She's a libertarian activist from Washington, D.C.
Her website is carolmoore.net.
And she is the author of the single most informative book on the Waco Catastrophe.
Nineteen years ago, today, the culmination, the end, the fire and the tank assault on the house/church that they, of course, TVE and the government called a compound in order to try to militarize the situation so that we would confuse the besieged with the aggressors.
Anyway, the book is called The Davidian Massacre, and it's really great, really, really great.
And in fact, here on her website, carolmoore.net/Waco, you can read Jim Bovard and Ambrose Evans Pritchard both agreeing with me.
And that's saying a lot because both of those guys know a hell of a lot about Waco.
And I know that because I've read what they wrote about it, too.
So welcome back to the show, Carol.
It's good to talk to you.
How are you?
I'm doing good.
I appreciate you joining us today.
So here's the thing.
There's a million different facets of the Waco Catastrophe that we could talk about.
Right now, for some reason, I'm thinking about the cops walking around with bottles of Clorox bleach pouring it all over the crime scene.
But maybe we can get to that.
I decided maybe if we could, if it's all right with you, I'd like to focus on what happened on April the 19th, 1993.
The government said that this was a mass suicide, like Jim Jones called it in the flavor aid down there.
And in your book, I think the information that you put together tends to paint a different picture.
Of course, there was a whole renewed controversy about this when the movie came out, Waco, a new revelation, which showed that the FBI and or whoever else had used pyrotechnic rounds, not incendiary rounds, but pyrotechnic rounds the day of the fire.
And so then former Senator Danforth came and did his whole big investigation and a whole recreation of the forward looking infrared and everything else.
So there's a lot to talk about, really.
Maybe that's our two parts.
What really happened there and then the Danforth cover up and how they got away with covering it up.
I'm fairly certain you'll agree with me that they did anyway.
What indications do you have that the Branch Davidians did not themselves, you know, light themselves on fire and commit mass suicide that day, like the government claimed?
Well, just for a quick overview, my book only goes to basically September of 1995 because it was published after that.
But if you go to my website and look at Waco News, I have almost weekly reports of news articles on Waco, including, you know, by year.
And in fact, 1999 has two parts because it's all the revelations that started coming out after the film came out and then the Danforth report starting and then you go into 2000 and it's just news report after news report, you know, which I summarize.
So if people really want all the dirty details, just go to CarolMornot.net, Waco, then look for the Waco News link and then go by year.
You can look at 1999 or 2000 to get a good overview.
Actually, slight correction there.
It's five years of updates on Waco is the correct link that you're looking for there.
I just found it myself.
Yeah.
And it's Waco-news.html, but it's just easier to go to CarolMornot.net.
Waco and then look for that.
Gotcha.
Right.
Yeah.
And then actually looking at that, I think I'm going to put the years right there.
But anyway.
And, you know, like I was telling the audience before I brought you on, the reason your book is the best is not because it's the polemic that agrees with me the most.
It's because you're basically the ultimate librarian here, just pulling together every single footnote that anybody could possibly need on the subject or pretty damn much anyway.
Yeah.
At that time, definitely.
Definitely.
But to get into one of the things, in fact, I did just review 1999 and 2000 today, and that's why I'm like amazed.
My goodness.
I mean, I forgot.
Every week I was out there putting something out.
And one of the things that is true is that the Davidians, this came out both, the FBI claimed that they could not hear, they could not clearly hear what was going on.
They had no idea anybody was talking about fire or the way it was after.
But there were other claims from people who had heard tapes that there were tapes where they could clearly hear them talking about fire.
And one of the Davidians did admit, and I can't remember, frankly, if this is the very end of the book, because it might have come out right after the book went to publication, that what happened basically was there was some discussion of, should we start a fire?
Because they believed that if they put a fire around the edge of the building, this was not to kill themselves.
The fire around the edge of the building would protect them because God was going to protect them from, you know, the invading FBI, as it happened sometime in the Bible or was predicted in the Bible or something like this.
And of course, this was after 51 days of being driven crazy, so that even if you theoretically believed it by the time it was over.
So even those taps, though, didn't they come from like six o'clock in the morning and hours and hours before the fire broke out?
I mean, they'd been harassing them, constantly lying to them, trying to keep them in there.
So the point is, there probably were a few people who were talking about this.
This is nothing that everybody knew about and engaged in.
Maybe a few people who decided at the last minute to take this conversation seriously, you know, we don't know for sure.
And the guy who, even the survivor says, well, I thought I heard them saying it, but I can't say 100%.
They were saying something about fire.
So it's still up in the air.
It is still a possibility that some Davidians did start some fires.
But you know, unless we hear these FBI tapes that have been hidden, because the FBI doesn't want to admit, if the FBI had heard clearly they were talking about starting a fire and they went in anyway, it's a mass murder, you know?
So they're damned if they do and damned if they don't, basically.
But the important thing to remember, of course, is that why would the FBI want to destroy the building in the first place?
And that was because on February 28th when they came in, they came in shooting from helicopters.
They killed four people.
And it was indiscriminate fire and FBI agents could have been prosecuted for murder for that.
And you had the attorneys coming out of the building saying there's gunshots, obvious evidence of gunshots firing into the building.
So they really were very strongly motivated to get rid of the evidence.
So I always say this is a typical police brutality, police cover-up massacre.
I mean, and of course now, except it was militarized.
Well, no, but there are a lot of other indications.
I mean, my understanding was the talk about maybe making some Molotov cocktails and whatever was all at six o'clock in the morning, but the fire broke out about six hours later.
And at the same time, we have the government's own footage from the FBI plane flying circles overhead, the infrared footage that shows cops and or Delta Force soldiers getting out of these tanks and firing machine guns into the house as it's burning.
There's evidence of a bomb being placed on the roof of what they called the bunker, which was just the one cinder block room in the house at the base of the three-story tower.
I mean, all this other stuff is also possible.
I'm just saying that on top of all this other stuff, in other words, so much was going on.
Yeah, I think that probably the fire itself started when the last tank smashed into the other side of the building.
And that's the first place you see fire start, come from.
So I think the very first fire probably was accidental.
The evidence, there were two pieces of evidence about, you know, sending gas grenades that did have a ability to produce fire.
What the government admitted was that four hours before they had sent in some gas canisters near the underground shelter, which was way at the other side of the building.
And that there were some other gas canisters found near the place where the fire started.
But oh, those were from ATF.
And of course, the defense attorneys in the civil suit at the time said that that was a bunch of bull, and that they were really used that day.
So that is counter evidence.
Of course, the government, in the end, the Danforth Report took the government's side and ignored everything that the attorney said.
And again, with the shooting, shooting at Davidians, the government, the Danforth Report claimed, well, it's just reflections.
Well, let's get to the gunshots in a second.
We'll have to pick it up on the other side of this break.
It's Carol Moore, the author of the Davidian Massacre on the line.
We'll be right back.
All right, y'all, welcome back to the show.
It's Anti-War Radio.
I'm Scott Horton.
I'm on the line with Carol Moore, author of the Davidian Massacre.
Her website is carolmoore.net, and you can find the entire book up there, plus years of updates, the ultimate library on the question of the Branch Davidian Siege and Massacre of 1993.
And now, I wanted to see if I could find this clip.
Yeah, here is a short couple of clips from Waco, A New Revelation, clips of a CIA agent named Gene Cullen talking about what he knew about the final raid of April 19th.
If I can get this thing to play.
It was discussed at the meeting that the senior levels of the Clinton administration had authorized Delta to be deployed to Waco, Texas.
And not just two or three people deployed there, but enough people there to get the job done.
Approximately a year after the Waco incident, I was deployed overseas in Europe, and I had the chance to meet some of the Delta operators that I had met on previous assignments.
They had told me on several different occasions during my meetings with them in Europe that not only were they forwardly deployed at Waco, Texas, but they were actually involved in a gunfight with the Branch Davidians.
In mid-March 1993, I attended a senior executive staff meeting at CIA headquarters, and it involved senior agency management along with the liaison officers from the U.S. military, in particular from Delta Group.
The briefing centered on Delta's operations in Waco, Texas.
Originally, I was told that there was just going to be one or two Delta personnel there as observers, but during the briefing, it was mentioned that there was over ten Delta operators at Waco, Texas, and they were not there merely as observers, but would be participating in any type of operational or tactical effort against the Branch Davidians.
All right, now, and I'm sorry those three clips came out in the wrong order there.
That should have been the second one.
And then the third one, where they told him that they were in a firefight with the Davidians that day.
And then there's one more short clip along those lines of a former special forces officer named Stephen Berry.
But I did talk to some combat applications group guys, and they did confirm that, yes, portions of B squadron were there pulling triggers.
So that means that, one, Bill Clinton put them there, not Janet Reno, because she can't tell the Delta force what to do.
Combat applications group, that's the Delta force.
And two, there's a 99.99999% burden of proof on them to prove that they somehow weren't the ones who deliberately set an arson fire that day.
If they're using the Army Delta force to finish them off, then certainly they're the ones who set the fire.
They should all be on the gallows trying to prove themselves innocent.
Well, I was actually looking through my records here of different news reports, and the Davidian attorneys actually did interview these guys for the civil suit, Delta force members.
But they did it behind screens, so they wouldn't know what they looked like or who they were, and they had...
But they did have different stories.
And in the end, of course, I'm sure that, I don't remember exactly, I'm sure it's in here somewhere, Danforth had something to do with them.
But of course, you know, he just, oh, well, you know, da-da-da-da-da.
I don't even know whether...
Well, what did they say?
I don't even know what Danforth's excuse was for dismissing this.
But they were...
It did get as far as the attorneys actually interviewing these guys, and they did give different stories about what happened.
But they denied that they were in a fire fight?
Oh, yeah.
They deny everything.
Yeah.
Well, then, I think some of these guys...
We don't know that.
If they admitted it, you know, they're going to say something else happened.
Yeah.
Well, and the thing is, there is, it looked like a bomb had gone off on top of the concrete room there.
Yeah, but...
A perfect hole, a circular hole in the roof, and it was all women and children who died in there.
And a lot of them had died from the blunt force trauma from the ceiling caving in.
Yeah, and it wasn't just...
Not from the fire or the gas.
It wasn't just a hole, but it was also that the concrete rebar was twisted in.
Right.
Which, you know, I mean, even if you had, I mean, you just had wood struts holding up the building.
So it's hard to believe that the struts coming down would do that.
So, unless they actually had a propane tank right on top, which is, I guess, what the government claims, and they had the propane tanks would be in the kitchen, which would be right next to the concrete room.
So that's pretty questionable, too, but, you know, the government destroyed the evidence.
They bulldozed that thing quick enough, and if there was any evidence of a bomb, you know, they took that out of there quick enough.
People can find the pictures online, probably on your site, but they're certainly out there.
But they're out there, yeah.
They're definitely out there.
Yeah, there's so much, you know, that I would just love to do to just update this.
I mean, I haven't really worked on the webpage in 12 years.
But don't even start on how bad the Wikipedia article is.
You know what would make a great book, too, would be Lee Hancock's work for the Dallas Morning News.
She just broke story after story after story, especially during the era of the Danforth cover-up.
This is where I interrupted you before the break, was talking about the flashes on the FLIR footage.
It's obviously gunfire unless you're a government employee.
But what's really fun, actually, and this is documented thoroughly in the movie The FLIR Project, which people can look up and get, they did a recreation of what it might have looked like on a FLIR camera if it was guns going off, and claimed it didn't match during the Danforth investigation, and yet it was so hilarious, I guess I'll just let you tell the story if you want, how obvious it was that they were rigging their experiment.
Well, one of the things that they tried to do to try to not have the test at all was basically the camera they used in 1993 was an analog FLIR camera.
And they said, well, we updated it to digital, and that old camera doesn't exist.
I mean, as if they're going to take an old analog camera and turn it into digital.
They would just get a new camera.
So that, I mean, that just looks like Total Bowl, or else they, so that was their excuse for trying to get out of the test.
When the test came, they said, they basically said, oh, well, it's just reflections.
It's just reflections, light reflections.
This isn't, you know, as if infrared picks up light reflection.
It doesn't pick up light.
It picks up heat.
So, I mean, it's just lying.
It's just lying.
And people will put up with it, because, you know, this is Danforth, and you wouldn't lie.
Well, I mean, you will find yourself slapping your thigh if you watch the FLIR project, where they explain how they went through and they sprayed water to keep all the dust down that would limit their flashes.
They used flash suppressant ammunition and rifles with extended barrels, and they rigged their tests every way they could to make sure that when they repeated it, it wouldn't look the same.
And then they said, see, it doesn't look the same.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I know.
It's crazy.
It's just, the whole thing's insane.
And of course, and what's the real tragedy is that nowadays, with the NDAA, indefinite retention without evidence, I think I said this last time on the show, they can do the same thing.
They can kill you, burn down your house, and say that it's, you know, this is all secret evidence.
This is national security.
Nobody ever gets to know what happened.
Right.
It'd be even easier to get away with now.
And, you know, that's Anthony Gregory's article today on LewRockwell.com is just how easy it was for them to get away with it then.
I've testified before on this show, I was sacking groceries, 15 years old, and all the ladies in the neighborhood wanted those people exterminated.
They were, they wanted so bad to get back to their soap operas.
They didn't care how many children had to die.
They were in a hurry.
Just go in there and end it, they would say.
And yet, of course, many of them probably like six months later decided, wait a minute, they might come after my guns next.
And they may start coming after people's guns.
So it's crazy.
Yeah.
It's scary.
I mean, I think that one of the things WACO did was because there were so many investigations and because there was Danforth, I mean, seven years later they did the Danforth report.
They don't want to have to go through that again.
So they would just as well have it, you know, totally gut the Bill of Rights so that they don't have to have another investigation.
They don't have to have, I mean, WACO to them means investigations.
They don't care about how many people they killed.
They care that they were investigated and a few people got in a little bit of trouble.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, I'd like to think that at least in hindsight that people can learn the lesson that like, wow, it really was easy to demonize those people and turn them into this, you know, foreign alien force in our society out to get us that needed to be, you know, that we needed to be protected from in this drastic way and whatever.
Maybe I should be wary of letting that happen again around here, you know?
Well, we would think so, but that's what they've done to the Muslims.
And in fact, that even a New York Times editorial, the head of the editorial committee said that there is a separate justice system in this country right now for Muslims, but it's all going to be applied to us.
I mean, it has been applied to us.
It now applies to all of us.
And yet most of these, even people who were against what the government did in WACO are all for what they're doing to Muslims and don't realize that next week it's going to be them.
If they think that Obama won't come after gun owners after he gets reelected, they're naive.
I think that's the kind of person I think, especially that musician who just got in a lot of trouble.
Yeah.
Well, some of them anyway will certainly be taken.
All right.
Well, listen, I really appreciate your work and your time on the show today, Carol, as always.
OK.
Everybody, that's the great Carol Moore, libertarian activist in Washington, D.C. and author of The Davidian Massacre.
If you look at her website, carolmoore.net, you can find not only that entire book, which is awesome, but you can also find her years worth of updates on this story.
And it's a very important story.
I'm never going to let you forget about as long as you're willing to tune in and listen to me anyway.
