All right y'all, welcome back to the show.
It's Anti-War Radio.
I'm Scott Horton, and our next guest is Ahmed Al Amran.
He's a Saudi blogger, keeps the blog SaudiGenes.org, and has been blogging for the past seven years, and has written for all kinds of media all over the world, been interviewed on TV, etc. like that, and now including this interview right here.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you, Scott.
I'm very happy to have you here.
Interesting piece in The Guardian, Saudi Arabia unrest, a blogger's view.
Okay, so let's start with, perhaps, what unrest is even at issue here in Saudi Arabia?
Oh, as you know, the Middle East as a region, as a whole, has been going through a transformation, a lot of changes, and with all these revolutions in the Arab world, it was just a matter of time before such unrest and revolutions arrived to Saudi Arabia.
And it seems like everybody was waiting for something big to happen in Saudi Arabia last month, but as we have seen, we didn't see anything major.
There have been some minor protests in different areas of the country, but nothing major happened.
So that was what the piece was about.
It was just about expecting what's going to happen then.
Well, and it seemed like, you know, I'm a Texan, and now I'm living in California.
I don't even know anything about California.
I certainly don't know all about Saudi Arabia.
But I guess my understanding is that the Shiite minority basically more or less lives up there in the northeast, where all the oil is.
And that's basically the heart of the protest movement there so far.
Is that right?
Well, the Shiite protesters in the eastern province had a very specific demand, which is releasing their political prisoners who have been jailed for over 15 years now.
And that was the main issue for them.
And with the revolutions sweeping the region, it was a perfect moment for them to bring this demand back again to the forefront and demand that the government release their prisoners.
But the government did not respond to this.
They basically cracked down on protesters and nothing happened after that.
Well, how hard did they crack down?
I mean, there have been reports of using that the government forces opened fire on protesters.
There have been reports about and probably two deaths.
But the protest was supposed to be peaceful.
The government responded violently.
And now I think you say in your article, and I read a couple of places that there were some protests in Jeddah and in Riyadh.
How big were they?
And what were the grievances at issue there?
The protests in Jeddah and Riyadh were much, much smaller.
I mean, nothing, nothing on a major scale and not even as big as the ones in the eastern province.
And the call was basically for reform.
People were demanding political and social reform, but there wasn't any major protest there, nothing to talk about, really.
Well, now, is this just a result of the efficiency and brutality of the secret police?
Or there's really, you know, for the average guy doesn't have that much to protest about or what?
I mean, there's plenty of factors to talk about here.
First, Saudi Arabia does not have the political traditions of people publicly protesting in the street.
Protests are actually banned by the government.
And the religious establishment was also supporting the government in their ban by releasing fatwa.
After another one, they end up public demonstration is illegal.
So there was part of it is because people don't have this culture of actually protesting on the street.
And another part of it is because the government, the security presence was pretty, pretty heavy on the street before the protest.
So people were pretty intimidated.
Another part of it also, because the government, what the government basically did in the past few weeks is that they have offered a lot of money handouts to the people, a lot of financial aid packages to the people to because they want to avoid such a situation like we have seen in Egypt or Tunisia.
Now, that first part of it there, I wanted to be clear, you're saying it's basically a religious edict that says that it's what's sinful to oppose the government sort of a render unto Caesar, what is Caesar's thing like the Republicans believe here in America?
Yeah, basically, the religious establishment came out with these religious edicts saying that, you know, protesting against the government is forbidden.
You cannot do that.
And basically, they were just supporting the government's position because the government came out with a statement the day before saying, you know, protest are banned.
And they're just establishing was just playing along the lines of the government supporting the government.
So basically, it's I mean, obviously, there's, there's the government and there's the religious edict.
But you're I think you're kind of saying to that it's, you know, traditionally, people in Saudi Arabia really just don't protest.
There's really just not that much of that kind of thing there.
Yeah, we don't have the same kind of traditions and political culture that that you probably see in other Arab neighboring countries like Egypt or Bahrain, or other countries where public protest and demonstrate on the street is is normal and usual.
I mean, we've never had any demonstrations for a very, very long time, probably 40 or 50 years.
So it is it is it is still kind of unusual for the people.
But we have also to remember that what people have seen over the past few months taken place in in the rest of the Arab world has been inspiring to them.
And we are seeing more and more calls for people to come out to the street and take to the street and demonstrate and even even for non political reasons, sometimes for employment, sometimes for other matters, we are, we are seeing more and more calls for street demonstrations, some of them actually happen.
Some some demonstrations happen in the past two weeks by unemployed teachers, unemployed engineers and stuff like that.
But they were not political in nature.
That seems like a strange way to go about it.
Engineers protesting, but I guess you got to do something, right?
Well, and that kind of leads me to another question, which is, you know, this is a very, you know, kindergarten understanding that I have over here.
So thanks for bearing with me.
But I guess I've been led to believe here and there and the other place over the years that really, the Saudi royal family, which may include, you know, third cousins and whatever to basically, they're the haves and everybody else in Saudi Arabia are the have nots.
Is that really right?
I think there is a lot of disparity on it comes to the distribution of wealth.
We are a country that that is very rich with natural resources.
And the revenues have been really high in the past few years.
But at the same time, you have also a lot of poverty and a lot of unemployment issues that shows clearly that this or these are revenues, this wealth that our country has is not being managed properly.
And there is a lot of corruption in the government and in how the country is run as a whole.
And, you know, these, these, these grievances will eventually push people to the street if nothing is being done about it.
I mean, at this point, most people who call for reforms, and call for change in the country are talking about change and reform within the system.
They're basically asking the government and the royal family to change their policies and to reform in a way that allow more people to have access to the wealth of the nation and to the resources that we have.
But at some point, people will probably just give up if nothing is being done about it.
And I don't think that with with with its current shape and form, Saudi Arabia is a country will have a very difficult problem sustaining its growth and, and just running normally if nothing is being done about it.
Well, and you say in the piece here, and I guess this is something that is the case all over that part of the world, and that is that there's a huge generation gap, a giant population of people under 30 years old, maybe under 20 years old.
And then a very kind of old and decrepit monarchy at the top.
Definitely.
I mean, when you look at a country like Saudi Arabia, the median age is 19.
And most of the population is under under under 25.
Well, our leaders are in their 80s and 90s.
And basically, those two groups do not speak the same language.
I'm talking with Ahmed Al Amran.
He keeps the blog Saudi genes.org.
And he's got a piece in the Guardian called Saudi Arabia unrest a bloggers view.
We're talking about what's going on there.
Now, I was noticing your area code.
You're not in Saudi Arabia, which answers my question.
Wow, how are you getting away with having a blog like this living in Saudi Arabia?
You're in where in New York or DC?
Yeah, I live in New York now actually was was in Saudi Arabia until August of last year.
I moved here to study at Columbia University in New York.
But yeah, as you said, you know, you wonder how do you get away with these things?
And, you know, blogging and being critical is is risky.
It has its own risk.
And I think that foremost, I'm not the only one who has to deal with this issue.
I think for most bloggers in the Middle East, they always have to think about the government censorship and how they're, you know, these regimes feel about being criticized.
And, you know, I think I, the fact that I'm writing in English gives me some sort of protection a little bit because the government tend to worry more about blogs in Arabic more than English.
So blogging in English is kind of giving me a little bit more space to express myself and to be more critical.
But you know, it is always risky.
You always I have a lot of friends who got in trouble, a lot of friends who got killed and and have run into many issues because of their what they write on their blog.
But so far, I've been lucky.
Yeah, well, now, so I wonder if America stopped selling all these weapons and giving all these weapons and all the CIA support and, and what have you, and just, you know, granted Saudi Arabia independence, would the Al Saud family still rule?
Or would that regime fall?
Do you think?
It's very difficult to tell.
I mean, for the time being, the king is the king remains pretty popular among the people and the royal family in Saudi Arabia has not lost its legitimacy yet.
Among the citizens, they still believe in and in the in the monarchy.
But as I said before, you know, with it, with with the current policies and its current shape and form, Saudi Arabia is not sustainable as a country.
And if the government and the royal family is serious about change and reform, they should turn it into a constitutional monarchy.
And they should try to get more people involved in the process of making decisions and, and giving people a chance to to to have a voice on how how their country is being run by by having a fully elected parliament and a fully elected government.
But so far, the government and the royal family are still pretty resistant to these ideas, and they're not willing to share the power with the people.
So it will be just interesting to see the next coming years how how they will just play in a country like Saudi Arabia, where you have a very young population, and very vast resources, but these resources are adults are also infinite, the oil will not run forever.
And at some point, we will have to deal with this.
And I don't think we're ready to do this at this point.
Yeah, well, I suggest nuclear power desalinization plants.
That's the wave of the future right there.
If only I was a billionaire, that's what I'd be investing in.
Well, Saudi Arabia has the biggest desalination process in the world.
Actually, we definitely desalinate water more than any other country.
And solar, the government has also been trying to invest in solar power, since we live in such a very sunny place.
So they're not, they're not just sitting, but they're also not moving fast enough.
Yeah.
All right.
Now, so you talk about the, the lack of the ability of the average guy, especially the average young person to participate in politics.
But I wonder about the degree of repression, you know, like, how often is it that people get their heads cut off by the regime, they're get their hands cut off for stealing, or, you know, secret police come and get you for daring to whisper, you know, it seems like a lot of the stories out of Saudi Arabia make it sound almost like East Germany in the sense of, you know, the secret police can just come and get you all the time for, you know, whatever reason.
Well, I think, you know, there is no question that, you know, there is repression and freedom of expression is pretty limited.
But I think, you know, the focus on such stories as, you know, cut in the hands of people who steal or stuff like that seems really not the right thing to focus on.
But this is what gets the attention of Western media in general, they don't focus on, on the struggle of people who live and try to change their country from within hope for people who try to promote human rights and promote freedom, but rather, they focus on these weird stories, because this will, this will get the attention of audiences in the West.
And I think they're missing the point.
I think there is so much going on in this country.
There's so much more about this country than simply talking about people who get their hands cut off or about executions when yes, Saudi Arabia has one of the highest execution numbers in the world, but they are very close to the US when it comes to these numbers.
So yeah, I don't think yeah, pretty bad.
Yeah, I think well, you know, I bring it up, not because of you know, the bleeds it leads thing, but just it seems like living in a police state, that would be the number one issue that the young people would be mad about and would want to use any new access to power that they might get to try to change.
I don't think that, you know, when you talk about a police state, that certainly the government is trying to control as much as they can of people's lives.
But I don't think that we live in a, in a police state, as, as, as we've seen in other other dictatorships, like Egypt or Syria, for example, when people can't even breathe without the government knowing about it.
I don't think we're, we're, we're there.
Well, that's interesting.
Yeah, Egypt, I guess would be the, the, a great comparison there, right?
Because that is exactly the description of, I read a thing about in Tahrir Square, a guy started talking to journalists, and then he froze like, oh, no, the secret police might be listening.
And then he took a deep breath.
And when he realized, no, they're not listening, I can say whatever I want for the first time in my life or whatever.
But it was like a, you know, getting hit by a ton of bricks.
That was the first time he'd ever been able to speak his mind.
You're saying it's not that tough in Saudi Arabia.
No, I mean, I mean, they're the, in general, in general, the past few years has been really interesting, because thanks to the internet and satellite TV, the margin for freedom of expression has been expanding really rapidly in Saudi Arabia.
And we're seeing more and more voices making themselves heard, especially online on the internet.
And, you know, the thing that the government seems so very spot on their side is that they can't really control the internet, they can't regulate it, and they can't really watch everything being said online.
So the internet was great, because it allowed a lot of these new voices to come out and just make themselves heard and express themselves and talk about all kinds of issues that used to be taboos or red lines in the past.
And, you know, the government cannot stop every single voice on the internet.
So as hard as they try to control free speech and what people say, at some point, they will realize that you can't really do that.
And people will find a way to say what they want to say, no matter how hard the government tries to control it.
Well, I sure hope they heard that loud and clear.
All right.
Thanks very much for your time today on the show, Ahmad.
I appreciate it.
Thank you, Scott.
All right.
And I'm sorry, it says Ahmad in the Guardian, but it says Ahmad in my email.
My apologies.
It's Ahmad, I'm Ron.
The blog is SaudiGenes.org.
It's Anti-War Radio, and we'll be right back.
