I'm the director of the Libertarian Institute, editorial director of Antiwar.com, author of the book Fool's Aaron, Time to End the War in Afghanistan, and the brand new Enough Already, Time to End the War on Terrorism, and I've recorded more than 5,500 interviews since 2003, almost all on foreign policy, and all available for you at scotthorton.org.
You can sign up for the podcast feed there, and the full interview archive is also available at youtube.com slash scotthorton show.
All right, you guys, on the line, I've got Dan McKnight from bringourtroopshome.us, and also from defendtheguard.us, or is it .com?
Welcome back to the show.
How are you doing, Dan?
Good, Scott.
How are you?
I'm doing good.
Correct me on the second address there.
Yep.
.us, both of them.
Okay, great.
That's what I thought, but now I know it for sure.
All right.
All right, so, well, we have a lot to talk about, but let's start with defendtheguard.us.
What is that, and why would anybody be interested in it?
Yep.
Great question.
So, defendtheguard is a piece of state legislation, so we got tired of fighting the war machine in Washington, D.C., and decided to take a 10th Amendment approach, you know, decentralize our fight and take it back to the states.
And defendtheguard is a bill that says that the state's militia, or the National Guard, cannot be deployed to overseas combat unless Congress has first declared war.
So the Louisiana National Guard that's currently in Iraq and missed Hurricane Ida, just like they missed Hurricane Katrina, would stay home in Louisiana unless there was an official declaration of war, which, you know, hasn't been done since, what, 1942, I believe.
Right.
Hungry.
And so that's what defendtheguard is, and it's a project that we're working on.
Right now we're in 37 states with sponsors.
We were at 31 last time you and I spoke, and we're hoping to be in 50 by January.
Great.
Now, it's pretty difficult to get something like this passed and signed.
What good has it done you so far to get it introduced?
That's a pretty impressive number, 30 out of 50 states.
I'll grant you that.
But now what?
Yeah.
So you're right.
Getting it passed is going to be incredibly difficult.
Every time we've introduced a bill, not every time, but when we introduce a bill, we try to go through the bill introduction process where you get an introductory hearing in front of the veterans or the state National Guard committee in the legislature.
And we've done that in several states so far, and when we get these hearings, we get to send veterans that have served in the global war on terror, that had multiple deployments.
We get to get them to testify in front of the state legislature in favor of this bill, and basically putting their stamp of approval on our efforts to have a more responsible foreign policy when it comes to the use of the military.
And we get to square off with the war party, with two and three star generals who come to testify against the bill.
And it's a pretty impressive dynamic when you have these veterans of the current wars debating literally in front of a legislative body with those that are propagating and pushing the wars.
And it creates a very stark visual, and I think every time we've done this, we've had incredible response.
And you've participated in a couple of these.
I think you'd agree that the generals typically have no clue on the authorization for war or the proper purpose and role of the of the military based on the Constitution.
And so it's we're drawing them out.
We're pulling them out of their comfort zone and bringing them out into the into the public side where the disinfecting attributes of daylight can shine a light on what they're doing.
Yeah.
Listen, man.
I mean, I think, OK, well, I just had this big talk with Danny Sherson about some of these subjects and about the way that especially in the Bush and Obama years, it's wearing off a bit now.
But especially then how conflating, you know, the conflation of supporting the troops and supporting the war and all that, you had to be as a pretty, you know, minority view that no way in the war to support the troops or, you know, this kind of thing.
Those things always just kind of get conflated together there.
But now and it is 20 years into the thing.
So it's about time.
But now you guys are really kind of changing that narrative and you're really helping to like I can see it on the faces of these legislators.
They're like, oh, wow.
You know, look at all these guys.
You know, they're Republicans and this guy's from West Point and that guy's got scars.
You know, all these things.
This guy was a Green Beret and they were all, you know, obviously not, you know, moving left.
But boy, are they sick and tired of the wars.
Just that overall impression seems so important for them.
And it's really just, I think, breaking the ice in a way.
But another couple of years of this and a bit more attention and a bit more pressure from the right.
It seems like you have a major narrative shift and it's going to be one that's very difficult to reverse.
You know, when the right wing says that they're really sick of the war.
And as they always said, we've got to respect the soldiers, we've got to listen to them first.
Well, the soldiers, like Dan McKnight, are saying they're sick and tired of it.
So what's that tell you?
You know, to me, that's, you know, far beyond the importance of the legislation.
Is that narrative being established and reaffirmed, you know?
Absolutely.
And, you know, we're still in the in the shadows of the withdrawal debacle in Afghanistan.
And so, you know, it's very sensitive and it's very timely.
But we've been pushing this, this, this poll and this, this pulse of the military for years saying that the military is tired of these wars and we believe that going into Afghanistan, the war wasn't worth it.
You know, there's poll after poll after poll that shows 75, 80 percent of veterans and those that are currently serving oppose these endless wars.
And we can never get that that sentiment to be said in a news story or in an article or anywhere in the public eye.
And now every story you see on the news today is that Americans overwhelmingly supported ending the wars, but we didn't want to do it this way.
You know, so the message we've been pushing now is almost being used as a tool by the other side to push for a continual war.
Yeah, we none of us like these forever wars, but look, it's kind of necessary.
And so it's interesting that even even the war machine is now saying nobody really truly wants forever wars and especially the veterans.
And that's a message that we've been pushing now for over three years.
I just I'm just offended they're using it to to argue for a forever existence in Afghanistan.
You know, we only need 2,500 troops there to to keep the peace.
We only need, you know, 70 helicopters there.
No, we don't need any of that, because what happened in Afghanistan was going to happen whether we left in 2002 or in 2050.
Yeah.
Well, why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about your time over there?
I know we've spoken about this on the show before, but, you know, you were in an area, I believe, where there's some pretty tough fighting.
I'm not sure if that's while you were there or not.
But up there in the Petch Valley, right?
Yep.
2005, six and seven.
We were in the Petch River Valley.
We were we landed in Bagram.
That's the first place we went to.
And everybody knows where Bagram's at now because it's, you know, it's the main story in the news.
And from there, we we pushed forward out into Jalalabad, which is a city in the Petch River Valley.
And we established an airfield there called Jalalabad Airfield.
And then we pushed out from there to a town called Assadabad, which is way further up in the Petch River Valley, getting close to the Korengal, you know, the Valley of Death.
It's kind of been famous in Younger's film.
And we spent time flying missions up and down that valley, assisting the ground troops and bombing and firing rockets and machine gun fire into the Taliban fighters that were in the mountains.
One of our missions there that we were in charge of was it's place called it was a provincial reconstruction team.
And we were in charge of of training and Afghan National Army and ANPs, Afghan National Police, to do basics, you know, perimeter security, servicing a weapon, you know, standing in a formation, you know, very, very basic things.
And we'd get an op order at night that would say, you know, tomorrow you're going to have 25 ANA or ANP coming for for training.
Here's your here's your task list and here's the mission.
The next day, four or five would show up.
And so we, you know, go through the basics with them, you know, teach them how to do very basic soldiering skills and then return the an after action review to our chain of command that would say, hey, only four or five showed up for training, but they were trained to the standard.
And that message would go up to brigade or division and it would simply say mission accomplished.
And so brigade or division would assume that all 50 or 40 of those people that they'd anticipated were coming to training had been trained when in reality it had been 10 percent of those numbers.
And so that was one of the tasks that we were in charge of.
And we see that that playing out right now when, you know, President Biden says that there's 300,000 strong Afghan National Army that are going to defend what we've given them.
And then they folded in a matter of days because that 300,000 probably never really existed in any way, shape or form, except on our on our intelligence reports.
So we were there, we participated in things like a big offensive push called Operation Mountain Lion, where we took the fight to the enemy and we were going there to win the damn war.
And that was a 45 day offensive operation that we flew around the clock.
And as soon as that mission was over, Scott, our mission changed and we were no longer war fighters.
We were then helping secure contracts for road building and building schools and securing their free and fair elections.
And the mission changed from one of of war fighting to one of nation building right then and there while we were there on the ground in the middle of our deployment.
And that was about the time when I realized that that we're screwed.
This is that this is we're going to be here forever because we were trying to do something the military is just not made to do.
We're not made to build roads and schools and water treatment facilities.
We're meant to blow things up and destroy things and and avenge the attacks that happened in our country.
And so that was my deployment.
You know, I got hurt and came home and retired after 13 years of service.
Yeah.
And then how long did it take before you decided you wanted to start doing something about it the way you've been doing such a great job of lately?
You know, I went underground, politically became very inactive.
I paid attention.
I watched my friends go back for six, seven or even eight deployments back to the combat zone.
And it wasn't until 2019, January, early January 2019, when our governor, our former governor, Jim Risch, who is now Senator Jim Risch from the state of Idaho, had served long enough in the Senate during this war to become senior member of the Senate Committee for Foreign Relations.
And he became the chairman in 2019 when the Republicans took control of the Senate.
And Jim Risch and I had a story past and I've told the story on your show before, so I won't go into too big of details.
But he had helped us out when he was our governor.
I'd called him on a satellite phone from the top of a mountain in the Petch River Valley when we couldn't get supplies for our troops.
And he helped us out.
And so I always held Jim Risch up as kind of this hero in my mind.
And so I reached out to him and I asked him if he would use his position in 2019, if he would use his position as the chairman of the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations to advocate for and follow along with President Trump's desire to end the war in Afghanistan.
And he answered in Idaho at a chamber of commerce event in front of a crowd of people with me, retired Sergeant Dan McKnight, right, with a buddy of mine in tow with a camera.
We filmed his answer and he said, Dan, I'm with you.
I remember helping you.
I'm with you.
We're done with nation building.
And I thought, by God, Jim Risch is going to go back to D.C. and he's going to shut this thing down.
Him and President Trump's America First plan and, you know, the veteran sediments that they want to get out of these wars, it's going to come to an end.
Well, he went back to Washington, D.C., all right, and he voted three times over the next 90 days to extend the war indefinitely in Afghanistan, Yemen and Syria.
And so that's when we started our organization, Bring Our Troops Home, specifically to influence Jim Risch from the state of Idaho.
And the mission caught on so fast and spread so, so quickly across the country that we decided to start influencing all members of Congress using veterans of the global war on terror and those that are currently serving.
And we quickly realized that we were going nowhere.
We could not influence Washington, D.C. and after about a year of beating our head against the wall, we decided to take the fight back to the state level where we can literally and figuratively kick in the doors of our Capitol buildings and make them look us in the eye and make them listen to our stories and make them understand that we are not pawns in their war machine, that we are.
There is a real cost of war.
There's a real cost of human lives.
And we're tired of it.
We're tired of being used inappropriately, without a proper declaration.
And we want the states to force Congress now to do their job.
And that's how we've shifted our mission.
OK, hang on just one second.
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All right, now, you know, there's so many aspects to kind of the inertia of the whole war and obviously there's all the money being made and the promotions being given out and all these kinds of things.
But you know, also people are really, you know, national level politicians.
There's no positive interest in losing a war and being weak on fighting terrorism.
If every congressman can just say, hey, I always vote to give the military everything they need to do what they got to do, then that's the safe political position, unfortunately.
You know, the demand just isn't the other way, or at least they don't see it that way.
They don't feel enough heat on that.
They're more concerned about being called weak.
And who wants to be weak on terrorism?
You would rather let bad guys attack the country or something like that?
I mean, that's a hell of a narrative to overturn.
Yeah, it truly is.
And in fact, we're just the opposite.
You know, most of our members are, like I said, we're veterans of the global war on terror.
Some are veterans of, you know, Desert Storm.
Some are Vietnam veterans.
But most of us are global war on terror veterans.
We're still mostly physically fit.
We still maintain a military bearing and a military appearance.
We're not counterculturists.
We're not hippies from the Haight-Ashbury district, you know, post-Vietnam, you know, the born on the 4th of July crowd.
That's not who we are.
We are still physically capable to stand up and defend our nation and willing to do so at the drop of a dime.
I would have been on an airplane going back into Afghanistan in a heartbeat when this whole debacle started, if there was a way for a civilian to be truly involved.
We're not saying to be weak on terror.
Our argument is to quit making terrorists, you know, quit occupying countries, sovereign countries, who did not attack us on September 11th and who have no central government for us to truly attack.
You know, we went into Afghanistan to avenge 9-11.
It was probably the right thing to do.
I'm not questioning that.
But we went to Afghanistan when every person that attacked us on September 11th was from Saudi Arabia.
They may have, the planners may have been in Afghanistan and we found them and we rooted them all out and we killed them all.
And in six months, the mission was accomplished.
Our concern is that we stayed.
We stayed.
And every day we stay there, we create another enemy.
Would you want someone occupying your backyard there in Texas?
You'd probably take up arms against them, is my guess.
I don't want to give any virtue or any strength or any credence or anything to the terrorists, but our presence there is a problem.
And the reason we're still there is because our elected leaders have failed.
The generals have failed.
The diplomats have failed.
It's not the soldiers on the ground that are fighting the war.
It's not the soldiers in the mid-level management, you know, the non-commissioned officers and the lieutenants up through captain.
Those aren't the people that are the problem.
It's the field grade officers and the flag officers and the politicians and the diplomats that are the problem.
And they perpetuate this system, this occupation, this virtue that we have that we need to spread our goodness all around the world.
But you can't spread that goodness through the barrel of a gun.
We have measures that allow us to spread that goodness.
It's diplomacy, right?
And the military should never be used for diplomatic means.
If we need to go into Afghanistan, or we need to negotiate with Afghanistan, or we need to have any foreign relations with that country, it shouldn't be at the barrel of a gun first.
That should be the last option.
And we should never go, ever, without proper authorization from the elected representatives of the people, right?
And that's through a declaration of war.
And so, yes, we agree.
Be strong against terrorism.
Terrorism is bad, and you can put it in any light you want.
There's no need for it.
It's disgusting.
It's vile.
And we always want to appear strong.
But peace through strength, all right?
Peace through strength.
If we're strong at home, and we're taking care of what we need to be doing at home, it makes those type of terrorist attacks far less likely.
Yeah.
Emphasis on the peace part.
Correct.
Yeah.
Yeah, let's start with peace, all right?
I mean, that should not be our endgame.
That should be our starting point.
And being a peaceful nation is not something that takes a whole lot of effort.
Yeah, I mean, the constitutional order presupposes peace.
The war would only be an absolute emergency.
Otherwise, you're risking your constitutional order and something much more like a military form of government, which is a lot like, you know, what we have more and more now.
So let me ask you this.
I did not finish it.
I don't think I saw the whole thing, but did you see Biden's most recent speech that he gave, what, two days ago, three days ago, about this?
The angry speech?
I'm sorry?
The angry speech?
Yeah, the angry one.
Yeah, when he was yelling at us.
Yeah, absolutely.
I don't have a whole lot of anything good to say about the man, to be honest with you.
They're now trying to paint his airlift operation as a giant success.
Listen here.
That's the worst part of it.
But I wonder what you think about where he said, look, this, the era of sending our army to remake other people's countries is over.
We're not doing that.
And then at another point, he said, listen, if September 11th had just been planned out of Yemen instead of Afghanistan, would we have ever gone to war in Afghanistan?
And he says no, because I'm paraphrasing, but pretty closely here, I think he said, because we have no national interest there at all.
He's not wrong.
And if that speech would have been given on May 1st, when the last American stepped onto a C-17 aircraft after every piece of equipment, every screw, every nut, every bolt, every weapon, every piece of ammunition, every diplomat, citizen, journalist, everything had already been evacuated from the country, and the last American turned off the lights at Bagram Air Base and President Biden had given that speech, he would have gone down in history as one of the greatest presidential moments in our country's history.
But he didn't.
Right?
He blew past the negotiated deadline.
He blew right past it.
He did nothing to prepare for it.
And then he withdrew our troops in the middle of the night, creating chaos.
And so anything that comes out of his mouth right now, it's tainted with that lens, right?
We have to look through it with the proper lens of history.
We can't look at it after the fact and try and grade his words.
We have to look at it in the context.
And that's the problem.
I applaud him for ending the war.
It was courageous.
It was bold.
It went in the face of most of his party and most of the Republican Party and all of his military leaders.
They were opposed to it.
And so I will salute him and I will thank him for ending the war.
But I'll never forgive him for the way he did it, because it cost 13 Marines their lives.
And countless Americans are still stranded in a country that we, again, have no national security being there.
And people are trying to get home and they're trying to get out.
And now civilians, veterans and philanthropic organizations are the ones that are doing what the American military wasn't allowed to do.
Yeah.
And the whole thing is nuts.
And, you know, I don't know if this is really true, but it sounds plausible anyway.
The Washington Post, I think they only claimed one source for this, but it does sound plausible in the scenario to me that the Taliban offered to stay out of Kabul and let the Americans run Kabul until they got all their people out.
And the Biden people told them, no, come on in.
You guys do it.
We don't have enough now for that level of force protection.
So we're just going to stay at the airport and you guys run everything.
And so they sure they sure didn't have to do that.
But that was how they decided to do it when the Taliban was that cooperative with them and willing to let them, you know, essentially run missions out there.
And the whole city was pretty much, you know, staying home.
It's like there's widespread looting everywhere.
People are too afraid for that, you know.
So they could have had convoys of Humvees going around collecting people and things like that.
And they just decided not to do it.
Yeah.
The problem is that all the Humvees have been rendered, quote unquote, inoperable when we left three days earlier.
Yeah.
And so, yeah, we it was done backwards.
You never take the men with guns out before you take the equipment and the civilians out.
Right.
It's mind numbingly stupid what the way he did it.
But again, I will say I am grateful that America's involvement in the war in Afghanistan is over.
Yeah.
Hey, I want to go back to what you said about he did it in the face of everybody, too, because it's a popular thing now that Biden is so senile that he's just a figurehead and a puppet and somebody else is running the show.
I don't know, Jake Sullivan, something like that.
But I don't really think that's true.
I mean, I agree that the guy's kind of senile.
He's certainly old and tired.
But I mean, the way it works in the American system, it's the guy sitting in that chair that gets to break the ties and decide the decisions, you know, on the highest level when the staff can't agree.
And I think he's very jealous of that position.
He's wanted to be a president since he was in junior high school or something.
They say he's always talked about that his entire lifetime.
And in this case, it seems very clear that certainly the entire leadership at the Pentagon and as far as I can tell, even the people on his National Security Council were all saying that they want to somehow try to extend the war.
They never explained how that's supposed to work.
Somehow convince the Taliban to let us stay.
They never say, you know, but they all didn't want him to leave.
They all wanted him to figure out some way.
And he I think, as you correctly put it, he said, no, that's it.
And stuck with even though he did kick the can down the road in a way that led to such a disastrous withdrawal, he did say.
But when I say August 31st, I mean that, though, many did stick with that.
And and it was like over their dead bodies.
Right.
And even The New York Times is like, yeah, the whole foreign policy establishment and to stop him.
But we couldn't.
Yeah, it's it's in again, I'm sitting here looking at 13 photos, you know, Dagan Page and Darren Hoover and David Espinoza and, you know, Dylan Muroi Muroi Muroi like I've never can pronounce his name, Humberto Sanchez, Hunter Lopez and Jared Schmitz.
And Giovanni Rosario Picardo and Kareem Neku and Nicole Gee.
And Riley McCullum and Max Zoviak.
They died because it was done wrong.
And most of those 13 that I just named, most of them are 20 years old or were 20 years old.
And so I will I'm grateful the war is over, that not one more American service member has to die in that godforsaken landlocked hellhole.
But I I'm hurt and I'm devastated that these 13 young Americans, most of them less than one year old when the war started, had to go back in there to retrieve Americans because we left in such an irresponsible way.
And so I'm trying to you can probably hear the the the caution in my voice.
I'm eternally grateful that the war is over and angry at the same time.
Listen, I think you and I may have talked about this, but I had an army officer source tell me on July 14th that they were preparing to send paratroopers to go back to Bagram for the evacuation, not to escalate the war again or anything, but just oops, we gave up Bagram too soon.
We're going to go back, re-seize it and we're going to use that for the evacuation.
But then they didn't do that.
You know, they waited another month and then they had nothing left but the airport.
By the time they wanted to go back to the to Bagram, there were Taliban crawling all over the place.
Within a few days, the ANA turned it right over to them and Taliban owned the Bagram airbase.
If they had sent the paratroopers back then, they'd have had to fight for it.
So too late for that.
Now they're stuck with the Kabul airport.
One landing strip and this whole kind of ad hoc improvised thing.
So I can't do anything but agree with you about all of that and just the same way.
And it is par for the course, right?
And that's how this entire war has been.
One big government program.
Of course, it ends with a complete disaster.
And then, by the way, for retribution, they killed a bunch of innocent civilians with an airstrike or two.
You know, I don't know who they killed in Nangarhar province.
I don't know if anybody followed up on that, but they're striking Kabul, killed a bunch of children.
You know, that's the last.
Talk about an ignominious retreat and failure and loss of this horrible war, a suicide attack that kills all these 20 year old guys on our side, and then a drone strike reprisal that just kills a bunch of kids.
You know, well, I'm so glad you American because, you know, the drone the drone wars has been one of the gifts that's going to keep on giving from this from this 20 year debacle, right?
American policy of using these unarmed aircraft to drop bombs on innocent civilians is a legacy that will live on for a long, long time.
And you know, in Idaho, just last weekend, I was at a convention and, you know, Robert O'Brien, the former NSA under Trump was was there as the guest speaker and I got to corner him afterwards.
You know, I wanted to I wanted to talk to him one on one, let him know who I am, what I'm working on and pick his brain.
And I asked him specifically about the the the the nuts and bolts of the Doha deal, because he was one of the chief negotiators of that Doha deal.
He was involved in it with Pompeo.
And he said it was a condition condition based with withdrawal, which we we hated at the time.
But we saw this progress.
Right.
We never want to see conditions based withdrawal from war.
We just want to come home.
And he said, but the plan, there was a plan.
The plan was to consolidate all Americans, equipment, weapons, vehicles, everything into three bases.
Right.
Herat, Kandahar and Bagram.
Eventually Herat, after being evacuated, would be turned over to the ANA.
Then Kandahar would be turned back over to the ANA.
Right.
And that's that used to be their major airport in Afghanistan.
And that eventually all Americans would have would have consolidated on Bagram Air Base.
And he said they had looked at options of consolidating in Kabul at the airport and they they shot it down immediately because it was such a tactically impossible location to defend.
Yeah.
You know, with with buildings all around it.
No, no defensible perimeter.
It's nothing more than just a country landing strip strip.
It's not really an international airport.
And he said the same thing.
He expressed his sentiment that he was happy that the war come to an end, that President Trump's vision for ending that war had actually been seen through, even though President Trump doesn't want to do it.
It was Joe Biden.
He goes, he was.
So he's glad that it happened.
But he felt like all the work that had gone into that Doha deal had been flushed down the drain.
Yeah.
Well, you know, I mean, at least the Taliban did keep their ceasefire.
It wasn't like a Blackhawk down ambush slaughter all the way to the airport and all this kind of thing.
They got one hundred thousand people out eventually, although they did leave people behind.
I ain't saying that.
I'm just saying that the Taliban now, in fact, I'm so sorry because I'm over time.
I got to go.
Crap.
I'm way over time and I got to go because there are accusations that the Taliban are preventing people from getting the airport and this kind of thing.
But I don't have time to ask you about it because I got to run right now.
But everybody, listen, it's so important what Dan is doing.
He's the chief over there at Bring Our Troops Home dot U.S. and especially for you antiwar veterans here looking for something to do, a way to get involved and dealing with people who understand you and who are like you.
This is your team right here, man.
Bring Our Troops Home dot U.S. and Defend the Guard dot U.S..
Thanks so much for your time, Dan.
Really appreciate it.
Thanks, Scott.
Appreciate it.
Oh, yeah.
The Scott Horton Show, antiwar radio can be heard on KPFK 90.7 FM in L.A., APS Radio dot com, antiwar dot com, Scott Horton dot org and Libertarian Institute dot org.
