08/16/13 – Adam Morrow – The Scott Horton Show

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All right, y'all, welcome back to the show here.
I'm Scott Horton.
This is the Scott Horton Show, streaming live from scotthorton.org slash listen.
Next up is our friend Adam Morrow.
He lives in Cairo and writes for Interpress Service.
That's IPSnews.net.
Welcome back to the show, Adam.
How are you doing?
Good.
Good, Scott.
How are you today?
Good.
Good.
And here's Egyptian Media Silences Protests.
That's your last one, co-author with Khaled Moussa al-Omrani.
I guess just go ahead and give us the bad news, man.
Start off with the body count.
Body count today is indeterminate because things are still going on, clashes are still going on all over the country, including several in Cairo, mainly in the Ramsey Square area of Cairo, although I think that one, that might have died down.
It's very difficult to tell.
As I mentioned in my article, there's kind of a news blackout.
In terms of Egyptian media, at least, it's impossible to find out what's going on.
The one station that you could quite reliably follow news with, local news with, was Gazeta.
That was the one channel that was quite closely covering all of the pro-Morsi demonstrations, and that's been scrambled.
That's, for the past couple of weeks, that's been scrambled intermittently.
And then their live station has just gone off air tonight.
I just turned on the television now and found I couldn't even find their live Egypt channel, which was devoted to 24-hour Egypt coverage, so that's gone.
So it's becoming increasingly more difficult to tell what's happening.
I mean, you've got the state television, which is all completely, overnight has reverted back to its usual rhetoric, its usual Mubarak-era rhetoric about the Islamists and about the war on terrorism and that sort of thing.
That's all in overdrive now, along with the private media, along with virtually all of Egypt's private media as well, which has also sort of jumped on board this military coup and is all entirely pro-army and entirely anti-Muslim Brotherhood, and is pumping lies nonstop about the pro-Morsi demonstrations, saying that they're violent, saying that they're attacking people, saying all sorts of anything you can think of that the media is accusing these pro-Morsi demonstrations of.
So it's very difficult.
And all the Islamist channels and the Brotherhood channel, as I mentioned last time, all of those were closed within hours of Morsi's overthrow on July 3rd, so it's very difficult to tell exactly what's going on today.
They did call the Muslim Brotherhood and allied Islamist parties and groups and figures did call for million-man marches today all over the country, and I know they had big ones in Cairo, and I know they have lots of big ones in the provinces, but again, outside of Cairo it's virtually impossible to tell what's going on or how big, you know, demonstration activity is, because there's virtually no news coverage of it.
Now all of this, bear in mind, has to be put within the context of what happened on Wednesday, which is when you had two six-week-old sit-in protests violently dispersed by security forces.
Since Morsi's overthrow on July 3rd, you had two big sit-ins in Cairo, one at Nada Square and a larger one at Rabaa al-Adawaiya Square, both of them in the capital, and both of those sites, which would often, could often, were drawing lots and lots of people on a regular basis.
You'd have tens of thousands, if not more, if not even hundreds of thousands sometimes coming to these sites every night for the past six weeks, past seven weeks.
Both of those sites were completely broken up, completely destroyed, reduced to rubble.
The two big tent cities, two days ago on Wednesday, the security forces, after threatening for several days and weeks that they were going to break it up, finally went in, and it was just as bad as people thought it might, you know, it was sort of a worst-case scenario.
The health ministry is saying a couple hundred people were killed in those two sit-ins, in the dispersal of those two sit-ins, but Brotherhood sources and Islamist sources and pro-Morsi sources say that the numbers of dead can be counted in the thousands, although they have been known to exaggerate casualties in the past.
So it's, I mean, it's difficult to, again, we're never going to know exactly how many people were killed, but we're looking at, you know, we're looking at probably close to a thousand, if not more, people yesterday in Cairo alone.
And then, as well, there were also several clashes.
There were lots of, there are often recurring incidences of pro-Morsi demonstrations being attacked by, you know, these plainclothes thug types, who it's always, you know, it's always impossible to tell definitively who they are, but presumably they're, you know, they're related to the security services.
So it's been, I mean, we've seen more deaths at this point in the last 48 or, you know, maybe 72 hours than we saw during the entire 18-day revolution in 2011.
So it's, I mean, to answer your question, it's, yeah, it's bad.
It's worse than it's ever been.
And there's really no sign of any sort of negotiated solution at this point.
I mean, all of the talk that we've heard in the last couple of weeks about, you know, all these, all this talk about civil war and the Algeria scenario and all of that stuff is, unfortunately, is looking increasingly likely, just because cooler heads have not prevailed on either side.
So the outlook is grim.
All right.
Well, so the AP is saying it's at least 638 dead.
And I think that's from maybe a day ago or so.
But 638 number, I believe, is from Wednesday.
Right.
Yes.
That's what I was going to say.
That's just from Wednesday.
That doesn't include whoever died yesterday and today already.
Right.
So it's got to be well over a thousand now.
Oh, yeah.
From Wednesday.
Yeah.
The last figures I was hearing are were 60 dead in Ramsey Square.
And that's just this afternoon.
That's just one place this afternoon, as well as a couple of dozen killed in the city of Ismailio on the Suez Canal and in the in the in the Nile Delta.
You've also got stuff going on in Upper Egypt, which is the south.
So, yeah.
So, again, it's you know, I'd like to I'd like to be able to give you more concrete stuff.
But again, the media has been so complicit, so complicit in everything that's happened over the last six to seven weeks that it's getting to the bottom of, you know, the health ministry will come out with numbers and you just you absolutely can't you know, you can't believe anything they say at this point.
I think the one of the ministers came out yesterday, and this is I'm talking about ministers in the military imposed unelected government, but that would that replaced the elected government of ousted President Mohamed Morsi.
One of these ministers just said, I think, just said yesterday, said that the police didn't use live fire when they broke up the sit ins or something on Wednesday when there's abundant evidence and loads of videos online that, you know, that that show that that they did, in fact, use the use live fire to break up the protests.
So, I mean, they're just lying to their teeth.
You know, BBC ran, Adam, BBC ran footage of Cairo on fire.
I mean, it was just incredible.
Just the damage everywhere.
I can't imagine.
That's the aftermath of these of the dispersals, right?
That's what they they literally destroyed these.
But yeah, like it was it's on fire.
Like you said, it's like the entire ground is on fire.
I mean, it's literally reduced to ash.
And bear in mind, people had lived there for for six or seven weeks.
You know, people had really dug in there.
They had created their own sort of systems of sanitation.
And, you know, it was quite something, especially the Rabat al-Adaya one, the larger of the two had kind of become something of a, you know, almost like an institution, almost like kind of a Mecca for a lot of people.
And yeah, and both sites were completely razed, completely razed.
And and we've got you know, we've got we've got bodies that were apparently there are dozens, if not hundreds of bodies that are burnt beyond recognition.
I mean, we're just a lot of this stuff is still coming out.
You know, you'll have an event and then it won't be until the next couple of days that, you know, all these videos come out or like eyewitness testimony start being heard.
And so so so stuff is still coming out about this.
There's some grim videos online that shows that shows heavy sniper activity, which has been something that we've seen more and more of since January 25th.
This this phenomenon of, you know, snipers and rooftops just dropping people.
Yeah.
Including there's scary.
Yeah.
There's footage.
Justin Raimondo and his column today links to footage of a guy trying to drag away a wounded guy and then he gets sniped and shot down.
Yeah.
And then the cover picture on antiwar.com today is a woman trying to hold off a bulldozer just with a hand.
She's protecting a wounded man laying on the street is quite reminiscent of the famous Tiananmen Square picture of the the right solitary man trying to face down the line of tanks.
Shocking stuff, although I would just just add, though, to that, that whenever people do look at these videos, that they have to be very careful about making sure that they are properly sourced and that they are now presumably most of the stuff we're seeing is actually from a lot of square.
I'm not I'm not challenging that, but we have seen the appearance.
There have been things cropping up where there'll be pictures of dead babies said to have been killed recently in Egypt.
And then it'll turn out that there are that the pictures are actually from Syria.
You've actually had the same thing going on about stuff up.
The video is allegedly taken in Syria.
Right.
But it later turns out we're actually from Iraq in like 2003.
Like, so just that's my one warning I would sort of issue to your viewers.
There's a lot of videos circulating these days, a lot of very emotionally charged.
Often very gruesome stuff floating around there with the express purpose of sort of getting people upset.
And people just need to be careful that they're not being manipulated when they see these.
People just have to just double check and make sure that they're getting them from good sources or that at least a good source can verify that this is actually this was actually taken in such and such a place at such and such a time.
We even had and I'm saying that because we had there was actually one one video that was that was very heavily circulated on social media sites in Egypt that supposedly showed a bunch of a group of Islamists throwing a young boy from a roof.
And actually, if you looked at it closely, it's very transparent that the whole thing was a hoax hoax video that was just being put out there just in order to discredit the Islamists here.
So so I'm just I'm just saying, as an aside, people should people should be cautious because there's a lot of disinformation going on these days involving videos.
Well, and I'm sure that the Islamists are fighting back in ways that are probably, you know, quite immoral in some cases.
But that doesn't mean that it's OK.
What the government did, what the military has done in canceling the elections, overthrowing the elected government and certainly not the the maskers that they perpetrated on the people in the squares.
Now, tell me this among the those who side with the Islamists, do people blame the United States for this?
The whole position on the United States here is a very intricate one, and it's kind of ironic.
It's basically both both sides, you know, the Islamist camp and then the what is, I think, most accurately termed at this point, the fascist camp, quite frankly, both both of them are sort of vying with one another to, you know, to outdo one another in their anti-Americanism.
You know, each one sort of accuses the other of, you know, of implementing American an American agenda in the Middle East.
You know, I mean, obviously you've got the military here is closely associated, closely associated with the United States.
And also you've had some interesting stuff concerning Israel and this reported drone attack in the Sinai Peninsula a couple of days ago and talk in the Israeli press about close security coordination between Israel and the Egyptian military authorities that came out of three or four days ago.
And that caused a big, big stir because, you know, basically it was it was it was it was good for the Islamist camp because they could point to the military and say, look, this is who you're dealing with.
I mean, you're dealing with people who are in bed with Israel and are closely coordinating their security in the Sinai Peninsula.
And at the same time, you've got the other camp will also sort of accuse the Islamist disingenuously, I think, of being being an American puppet and being or being a Masonic organization or or or otherwise serving, you know, foreign interests in some way or another.
And needless to say, I mean, I find that hard to believe, especially in light of everything that's happened in the last seven weeks.
And I definitely I mean, it definitely looks like at the end of the day, the U.S. is standing behind the military, would would much rather to see a Mubarak style military regime in Egypt controlling things just just as it did, just as Mubarak did for them for 30 years.
Well, we remember, too, when when this all when the Arab Spring broke out in Egypt back at the beginning of 2011, they did everything they could to keep Mubarak in power.
And then when the game was up and they had no choice whatsoever, they said, well, you think we could maybe settle for Omar Suleiman, the head of the secret torture police?
He's done such a good job on our extraordinary rendition program.
Let's keep him.
There's no question about what the Americans have wanted here.
They they pretended to celebrate democracy there, but they've been working to get rid of the Muslim Brotherhood ever since then.
Correct?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think everything that's happened in the last since since Morsi's overthrow, I think really, really sort of cements that or or at least, you know, certainly supports that that assertion that the Brotherhood, what whereas it might have been co-opted in some, you know, in some in some regard, in some way, it might have been co-opted.
It might have had bad elements in it.
I think generally speaking, overall, it did represent an independent Egyptian force, you know, and I mean, it made sense, Adam, that that the CIA would back the Muslim Brotherhood when the opposition were the anti-American nationalists or the socialists back during, you know, the Cold War, the Nasserites and whatever.
But once they got Sadat and then Mubarak, why in the world would they support the Brotherhood?
They had the military dictatorship.
Right.
That's a good point, just because if there was cooperation between the Brotherhood and the U.S. at some point in the past doesn't necessarily mean that that's still the case.
But that's a good point.
Yeah, I mean, that was back before Sadat, I think.
And then, of course, now after they realize that they couldn't have Omar Suleiman, the head of the secret torture police, and that there were going to be elections, then, of course, it makes sense that they would try to, you know, work with the Brotherhood if they could and place bets on all sides if they can.
But that doesn't mean that the Brotherhood were their choice.
Listen, I think what happened was, all along, as they were reassuring the Brotherhood, because I was quite impressed at some of the things they said about the Brotherhood.
Just a month before Morsi's overthrow, there was an interview with the American ambassador here.
And they, you know, the U.S. line was consistently like, look, these guys won fair elections, so we're going to deal with them as the, you know, as the legitimate rulers here.
And people would even, you know, you'd even have people asking them about, oh, well, what about the Salafist Nour party?
And, you know, and the Americans would be like, look, this is a party, and this is like the ultra-ortho, you know, super hardcore Islamists, far more hardcore than the Muslim Brotherhood.
And the American response was like, these guys won 25% of parliamentary seats in the last three parliamentary elections, so, I mean, we deal with them as we would any other legitimate political, legal political party.
So, but that being said, I think all along, I think the idea was, I don't know if you remember this, it was just about one year ago, maybe a year and a month ago, when they had the elections, there was a week-long period before they announced the final results.
And it was really, the whole country was on pins and needles because we, nobody knew what was happening at the highest of levels.
It was obvious, like, there was some kind of arguments going on, there was wheeling and dealing going on.
There was no reason why the election results should have been delayed this long.
It went on for about five days, six days.
And finally, finally, they announced that Mohamed Morsi had won by a slim margin, by 51%.
Now, I think, I think the idea all along was as shocked and horrified as, you know, as the Mubarak-era elements, and even the, and elements, and neoconservative elements in the United States, as shocked as they were, I think the idea was all along, let him, okay, he won the elections and we can't cover that up because too many people are watching.
The whole world is watching.
And plus, we had, plus the Muslim Brotherhood itself had people stationed in all of the polling stations to double-check its own numbers, which turned out to be, which all turned out to be accurate.
Yeah, I mean, if you're going to steal an election, it's got to be kind of close.
You can't just steal 15 points or 10 points or something, you know?
Right.
I think they couldn't steal it.
So basically they said, look, we can't steal it.
And, you know, we're, honestly, we're not sort of prepared to steal it or whatever.
Too many eyes are on us.
Let him become president and let's start a plan from today, basically.
Let's, let's do everything we can to undermine him from here on out, from the, from the moment he takes office.
And, and let's, let's, let's plan to get him out within one year.
This guy's not going to, we're going to make sure this guy doesn't stay for one year.
And then that's exactly what they did.
They, the Mubarak era media, even the private media, which is all owned by, all owned by Mubarak friends, friends and associates, immediately launched a smear campaign that, I mean, that just did not stop.
24-7 anti-Morsi, anti-Brotherhood.
Lots and lots of accusations that were never, unfounded accusations against the group.
Lots of straight, straight, straight up lies.
You had a judiciary that was all, if not, if not appointed by Mubarak, at least approved by Mubarak.
And they all remain in place.
And they were adamant, they were, they were rabidly anti-Morsi as well.
They did everything they could to trip up any sort of legislation he tried to do.
They tried to, and they also let go, they also exonerated loads and loads of Mubarak era officials.
They let that, you know, in the cases, all the cases, all those guys were freed.
I mean, it was incredible.
Morsi tried to move against the judiciary, but he didn't, he didn't get any support on the street, unfortunately.
And everybody branded what he was doing as a, as a power grab and all of this sort of thing when he was actually just, he was just trying to make a move against the judiciary.
And, and the police, police remains completely intact, Interior Ministry.
He made some changes as well, but apparently from what I heard, within, within hours of his overthrow, all of, all of those changes that he made to the Interior Ministry were, were, were, were reversed.
And a lot of old people started coming back again.
We've also had, apparently this new government is full of Mubarak era officials.
I can't give you an exact number.
I'm not, I'm not, they just, they were all just announced like a week ago or two weeks ago, but that they're stocked with, with Mubarak era holdovers.
Also a big raft of governors, provincial governor appointments was made a couple of days ago or a week ago.
And that's almost entirely, virtually all, all the governors are of military background as well.
So yeah, it's basically what we've seen now since July 3rd and everything that's happened in its wake.
I mean, it's basically, it's basically the undoing of the January 25th revolution.
It's a counter-revolution.
I mean, I think at this stage, it's safe to say it's become clear to everybody that what's happened is a counter-revolution.
And if you noticed Mohammed Baradai just resigned yesterday.
Right.
And I mean, that's, I mean, the whole Baradai thing is just sort of like, I see him sort of as a microcosm for the whole liberal left of this thing.
They joined the, the, the, the push against, against Morsi.
And then when Morsi was out and they had served their purpose, they, they themselves became entirely marginalized.
Yeah.
Big surprise.
They really blew it there, man.
They should have just.
Oh, big time.
Yeah.
It sucks to lose an election sometimes, but, oh, you prefer a military dictatorship.
That'll make sure you never lose any more elections, you idiots.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was extreme.
I've never seen such incredible short-sightedness to the point where I have to ask myself, I mean, was, is this, is this, is this, I mean, can anybody be that stupid or, or are you somehow involved?
Like the Brotherhood say, are you, are you part of, of a broader conspiracy from, from the very beginning?
And you were all just pretending to be liberals and Democrats.
Well, and you know, and I'm sure it's kind of a mix of both.
And this is part of the problem with being Egypt or being Syria or any other small country, relatively small country.
I know Egypt is the most important Arab state, but still you get stuck between a lot of power plays by outside powers.
I mean, America is the 800,000 ton gorilla here rules the whole planet earth.
And it doesn't mean that they always get whatever they want, but it does mean that they're up to their eyeballs in everything.
And so when you take one side or the other, you are taking one side or the other in an American conflict too.
You can't help it.
Right?
Same thing in Syria right now.
You got decent people who want to kill Assad for good reasons.
How dare he be the dictator of their country?
He's got no right to be their dictator, but they can't overthrow him without doing Benjamin Netanyahu's dirty work.
So what are you going to do?
You know, right.
Another thing that has shown also is just Egypt's incredible geostrategic importance as well.
I mean, I mean, I even, I remember saying in the middle of the 18 days and two years ago, the revolution two years ago that we would no matter what happened in Egypt, you know, like even if Egypt did get rid of Mubarak and had elections that the powers that be, you know, in Washington or wherever, uh, uh, would never allow it to go its own way.
You know, would absolutely never allow it to just do what it wanted to.
It's just, it's just too, too important.
You know, its size, its population, its strategic location, the Suez canal, its proximity to Israel, all these other things.
Right.
Well, yeah.
And you know, Israel is, has a hell of a lot to do with this, what they want.
And I, I think it's pretty clear that they're scared to death of anything with the name Muslim, anything in it.
Um, and again, and again in Egypt, you're talking about an 80 million plus population.
You're not talking about a neighbor like Jordan, which has 5 million people or 6 million people or Tunis that has something like 10 million or something like that.
I mean, Egypt is 80.
It's, it's by far the largest our country in terms of population, 80 million.
And it's right.
Man, it shares an enormous border with, with Israel.
All right.
Now real quick here, cause we're almost out of time, Adam, let me just mention a couple of things for your remarks.
John Kerry, the secretary of state has said, Oh, this wasn't a coup.
This is just, uh, you know, reinstalling democracy, which seemed to be, if not a green light to go ahead and massacre, it at least said, we're not going to do anything about it.
If you do.
I mean, the, the news reports are that Chuck Hagel tried to talk them out of it, but why would they bother when they know the Americans aren't going to cut aid no matter what that, that the Americans are going to back them.
And then the second thing I wanted you to remark upon, please, would be, uh, whether this really could descend into an Algeria style civil war type situation, because, uh, isn't it the case that the Muslim brotherhood, they just don't have any guns of their own.
They can protest all damn day, but they don't have the ability to really fight back.
Do they?
Right.
Right.
Well, uh, if you will start answer the first question very quickly, the position of the U S on this to be quite honest with you has confused me.
I mean, we just said you just had two Republican senators here a week, about a week ago, maybe less McCain and, uh, and Graham, uh, and both of them came out basically saying that it was a military coup and sort of like slapping the Egyptians on the wrists for like, you know, they, they said, look, you know, the, the people that were elected are now in jail and the people who are now running the country are unelected.
And, um, I don't know what the purpose of that wasn't to the point where, uh, Obama, I think the white house even issued a statement saying, look, these guys are not speaking on her behalf.
It was all very weird.
Uh, and I, and I quite frankly, I wasn't able to follow it as closely as I wanted to because so many other things were happening here.
So the position of the United States is weird.
It's obviously, it's obvious that there's like major, you know, some kind of major division going on in the States, but this is obviously causing major divisions, uh, at the highest levels in the, in the States between who and who I'm not, I'm not enough of a, of an expert on us policy to be able to tell exactly where the division lies.
I mean, I'm quite frankly, I'm, I'm, I'm focused too closely on domestic events in Egypt right now.
But that's, uh, the, the, the U S is definitely does not have a monolithic stance on Egypt and is still, there's obviously still something going on behind closed doors, arguments going on behind closed doors, whether or not to call it a military coup.
So I don't know whether that, whether that, that fight is between the white house and Congress or, or somewhere else.
Uh, it may even be inside the administration.
It might be within the inside the administration itself.
I don't know.
And then real quick about the, the, about the brotherhood's ability to really resist unknown, unknown.
I, I, that is, it's unknown, but look, we could see a situation within six months time or another year, or even who knows, even less where you start having, because, because the regional situation is getting so choppy.
Now you could have a situation where you've got foreign fighters and foreign jihadists coming from Libya and Syria into Egypt to help fight, to help, to help the brotherhood and the Islamists fight the military here.
Who knows?
All right.
Thanks, Adam.
I sure appreciate it.
Sure, Scott.
Until next time.
See ya.
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