All right, y'all, welcome to the Scott Horton Show.
I am the Director of the Libertarian Institute, Editorial Director of Antiwar.com, author of the book Fool's Errand, Time to End the War in Afghanistan, and I've recorded more than 5,000 interviews going back to 2003, all of which are available at scotthorton.org.
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The full archive is also available at youtube.com slash scotthorton show.
All right, you guys, I got Ramsey Baroud on the line.
Of course, he is the editor of the Palestine Chronicle, and his latest book is called These Chains Will Be Broken, and we republish virtually everything he writes at antiwar.com.
This one is called People of the Cave, Palestinians Take Their Fight for Justice to the Mountains.
I'd like to say this story is unbelievable, but yeah.
Welcome to the show.
How are you doing, Ramsey?
I am doing great.
Thank you for having me again, Scott.
So you know, I really like the way you write because it's all very hopeful and optimistic and you take a lot of pride in the defiance and the spirit of your people and all of that, but god dang, in the face of the sort of adversity that is just, should be unbelievable, and at the American people's expense too, on our diamond and essentially in our name, all enforced with our guns and our planes and all the rest, and so, man, go ahead, tell us the story of Ahmed.
Oh, I should have practiced this or something.
Amarneh?
Oh, sorry.
Amarneh.
Yes.
Hey, all right.
Not too bad.
Yeah, yeah.
Very good.
Yeah, absolutely.
So Ahmed Amarneh is a Palestinian engineer from a village in the northern West Bank that happened to be located in Area C, and we've discussed what is Area C in the past.
This is about 60% of the total size of the West Bank that has been designated by the Oslo Accords as under total Israeli military control.
So people, Palestinians living within this area are quite vulnerable to the dictates of the Israeli army and to the expansion of the settlements.
For the Israelis, the key is Palestinians cannot be allowed to build in this area.
Natural growth, natural expansion, demographic changes, none of this matters because Israel is planning to annex this, and we all know about what's happening with annexation.
It's the plan that is presented by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to basically illegally appropriate nearly a third of the total size of the West Bank and the Jordan Valley and make it part of the so-called Israel proper.
Well, what happened is that Ahmed Amarneh and his family are living in Area C like other tens of thousands of Palestinians.
Now they are living in a village called Farasin.
Farasin is recognized as a small town or a village by the Palestinian Authority, but the Palestinian Authority cannot control that area, therefore they cannot extend electricity, they cannot extend water, they cannot provide any services to Ahmed Amarneh and his family.
The Amarneh family is a large family, it's a large clan in the northern West Bank, and you can expect that he got married, he has a wife, children, and he needed to build and move on with his life, but he can't.
He can't do that.
And he applied for a permit to the Israeli military to allow him to expand and take his family and build a house, and they rejected his permit several times.
In fact, the vast majority of Palestinians' application for permits to build that is presented to the Israeli military are all rejected.
I think something like 2% or 3% or less are the ones that are actually accepted.
The vast majority are rejected.
So Palestinians have no other options, so many of them go and build without a permit.
I mean, what do you do?
You don't live in the street, you just take your chances with the hope that the Israeli military radar is not going to catch you.
When they do, they demolish your house.
When they don't, you're living in this perpetual fear that a day from now or a year from now or 10 years from now, they will catch you and they will demolish your house.
Ahmad Ammarni didn't want to take a chance.
He's a very intelligent civil engineer.
He decided, you know what, I'm going to go to the caves.
Lots of Palestinians ran away to the caves and they built homes inside the caves.
They are living in there.
We see this more present in the Hebron, an area called the Hebron Hills.
We see it in the Nablus area, one of the most, Nablus is arguably the second oldest city in the world.
So you have all of these caves scattered around that region.
So many people just go and live in the caves and the Israeli military comes and habitually kicks them out.
But in the case of Ahmad Ammarni, what is really interesting is that he did actually manage to get recognition from the Palestinian authority that the cave is his home now.
And they actually extended electricity there.
They managed to actually live a normal life, as normal as possible in a cave.
Well, the Israeli military learned about it and then they came to the village.
They handed 200 orders of demolition, including one to Ahmad Ammarni and his family.
Not that they are going to be evicted from the cave, but rather that the cave itself that has been sitting there for thousands of years will also be demolished.
So the story of Ahmad Ammarni, of course, is a microcosm of the story of all Palestinians.
Number one is that we are willing to take this fight wherever it goes.
We are not.
This is not the Nakba.
It's not 1948.
It's not that original catastrophe where the Zionists came and drove us out.
We're going to fight and we are going to stay and we are going nowhere, not to Jordan, not to Egypt.
If it means that we are going to run away to the caves and they're going to come and demolish the caves on our heads, that's an option we are willing to take at this point.
So I didn't really see, I mean, of course, you can see it as a story of the brutality and irrationality of the Israeli government and the Israeli army and how far they are willing to go to expand their colonial project to ensure that Palestinians do not set roots in their own land and so forth.
But it's also a story of resilience and persistence of the ordinary Palestinian that goes way beyond the compromising leadership and the sell out Arabs and so forth, Arab governments into something entirely different.
The spirit of the human being in Palestine itself remains unbroken.
Yeah.
And, you know, it's funny because I was just having this conversation the other day with Alan McLeod from Fairness and Accuracy and Reporting, where he had cited, he was talking about the coverage of the bombing of Gaza in the last week and how the the language that the Associated Press and the others who talked about it at all when they mentioned it at all, that they sound straight out of the Global Language Dictionary, like they're taking the Israel lobby's instructions on how all of these questions are to be framed and all these things.
So then that brought up the whole question of that Global Language Dictionary, which is so funny.
It's the Frank Luntz pro-Israel propaganda how-to book from 2008, 2009 there.
And one of the things we talked about was how the focus groups, they had learned from the focus groups, don't say that the Palestinians are in violation of the zoning ordinances because that had been used as an excuse like, hey, well, they weren't within, they didn't have a permit and their house was expired and needed a new permit and they couldn't get one.
And that's why it's so.
And Americans hate that.
Don't say that.
And yet, so they don't use that as kind of propaganda against the Palestinians that they would dare to build without permits and whatever it was that they thought was an effective talking point.
But in reality, that's what they hide behind.
That's what they use to keep Palestinians homeless is they just refuse to give them a piece of paper that says it's okay to eat, to build even on their own property, to do anything.
And they're more than happy to come in with bulldozers and undo whatever the Palestinians have done to try to build themselves shelter on their own land.
And add to that, Scott, of course, is that is that some Palestinians are giving the choice to demolish their own homes in their own hands.
Otherwise, they are going to receive a bill from the Israeli military billing them for the bulldozers that came to demolish their homes in the first place.
And then so you have this guy, he's living in a cave, but at least he's a civil engineer.
This guy who's reduced to living in a cave.
So he must be doing that cave up as nice as he possibly can, I'd have to imagine, without seeing the pictures.
But you're saying that he's at risk of having his cave demolished as well, is that right?
That's right.
Now, he's he's waiting like the rest of the village.
In fact, the entire village is now scheduled to be demolished because the village stands on in a strategic area where Israel is hoping to extend Jewish only bypass roads to connect various settlements.
So this is not about a home or two.
The entire village is scheduled to be demolished by the Israeli military.
And they don't want anybody in the way living in a cave or living in a box, because, you know, these plans have been drawn years and years ago and they are under no circumstance will allow Palestinians to violate this, you know, the blueprint of something that's much bigger than poor Ahmad Amarni and his family.
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Now, I want to draw people's attention to this.
I'm sure you're familiar with this from a few years back now.
It was old footage that was taken, Netanyahu was visiting a settler's home, and they were just filming and kind of left the camera on, and years later this footage came out.
And part of it contains Netanyahu explaining essentially how he screwed the Americans on the Oslo Accords.
And of course, you know, the Oslo Accords are far from a perfect real two-state solution or anything like that, but even for what they were, Netanyahu explains that he had agreed that yes, of course, he will have to abide by them, but according to mutuality and limiting the retreats.
And he says, well, but so how do you intend to limit the retreats?
Well, I'll give you an interpretation of the Accords that will make it possible for me to stop this galloping to the 67 lines.
How do we do it?
Well, no one said what defined military sites.
Defined military sites, I said, were security zones.
As far as I'm concerned, the Jordan Valley is a defined military site.
And then he goes on to talk about how essentially this was how they got over on the Democrats back then, was by continually expanding what they call the security zone, this Area C, until the point where I think, as you point out in your article, it's something like 60% of the West Bank.
So leaving the Palestinians with 40% of the 22% of what they had agreed to finally compromise on back 20 years ago, sorry, 30 years ago.
Right.
Well, of course, I mean, I mentioned something about what you just said, but just also before I forget, it's important to mention that it's not like Area A and Area B are being respected in any way.
Area B is supposedly, you know, this I don't know, is about like 19, 20%.
And it is supposed to be under mutual security patrol by the Palestinian Authority and Israel.
But guess who has the upper hand and who's violating that agreement at every turn?
Of course, the Israeli military.
What is the Palestinian police can do?
They go, they arrest, they demolish, they do whatever they want, and they get away with it.
And even Area A, which is a very, very tiny little, you know, the remaining portion is itself.
I mean, in 2002, when Israel, during the Intifada, when Israel invaded all the Palestinian cities, all the major, you know, towns in Ramallah, Nablus, Tul Karem, all of these areas were taken over by the Israeli military for as long as they needed to be there.
And then they eventually retreated back to some imaginary line outside these towns.
And you know, every couple of days you hear about the Israeli army arrest someone in Ramallah.
The Israeli army raids Nablus.
I mean, that's Area A.
I mean, it's essentially a military occupation that hasn't changed.
And I think it's so important to mention that because the Israelis are very clever.
I mean, they pushed us into this kind of, you know, they forced us into using their terminology.
We were talking earlier about the global dictionary.
You know, even if we are opposing these terminologies, even if we are saying it's a sham, Area A, B and C is a complete sham, we are still using them.
And the people who are listening to us right now are trying to kind of get their heads around this concept.
What is Area A, B and C?
Where does it start?
Where does it end?
What kind of authority does the Palestinian authority have in what area and what kind of control does Israel have?
In the process of doing so, there is very little talk about the fact that this is a classic military occupation.
This is military occupation that is embedded inside a larger colonial project.
It is the same situation that happened in every country that was occupied and colonized throughout the 20th century.
There is no difference here.
But the cleverness of it all is that we are forced to talk about these other issues that are really in the everyday of a Palestinian.
Do you think if you are a Palestinian living in Area B and I'm a Palestinian living in Area C, do you think that we're going to find ourselves in two different political landscapes?
Of course not.
It's all the same.
The same Israeli military regime, the same Israeli soldier, the same Israeli checkpoints.
It's just different types of hardship, different kind of obstacles, different types of challenges.
But ultimately, there's absolutely nothing different between us.
And the last 30 years hasn't changed an iota of the relationship between any Palestinian in the West Bank and the Israeli soldier.
The relationship remains exactly the same as pre-Oslo and post-Oslo.
Yeah, man.
And it's funny, too, because the Area A, I mean, what exactly is that supposed to even signify that this is essentially like the most independently controlled areas?
But as you're saying, they are just a subject to, for example, the Shin Bet or the IDF coming after him in the middle of the night or IDF troops standing around on the street corners or full fledged occupation anyway, right?
Exactly.
Exactly.
And, you know, I mean, initially, Area A was supposed to be this kind of test balloon of some kind, you know.
So the Palestinian Authority is going to have some kind of autonomy in this area.
So they are going to practice what they call state building, right?
So the IMF and the World Bank and the Americans, everybody gets super excited about the idea.
So you see, Palestinians are wearing uniforms like normal police officers helping children cross the street and are collecting electricity and water bills and they are providing services.
Now we'll expand it slowly into Area B and eventually we'll talk in the final status negotiations about Area C and all the other issues.
The right to return for Palestinian refugees, the status of the legal settlements, the status of Jerusalem and so forth.
Well, guess what?
The Palestinian Authority has been collecting money for electricity and water bills for the last 30 years and nothing at all has changed aside from the fact that occupation was just redefined.
The settlements have tripled in size.
Jared Kushner is now telling us, forget about this archaic issue you keep talking about, the right of return for Palestinian refugees.
What does this even mean?
Let's redefine the word refugees altogether.
So he goes to Jordan and he asked the Jordanian king and he says, listen, we will give you $2 billion a year if you give these refugees citizenship, these Palestinian refugees citizenship and just call them Jordanians.
And that's the end of the issue.
And Nikki Haley got very excited about it at the United Nations, the U.S., you know, the former U.S. ambassador to the U.N. got very excited about the idea.
So she started pushing for the idea of redefining the status of refugees altogether so that they would render the whole issue of refugees null and void.
And of course, Trump declared that Jerusalem is off the table.
So this is not even something to be talked about.
And now, and they went and they moved the American embassy from the city of Tel Aviv to the city of Jerusalem, to the occupied Jerusalem.
So that's the final status negotiation.
So what do we still have, aside from the early promises that Area A will eventually become Palestine, all of Palestine, what happened at the end?
Mahmoud Abbas, the head of the Palestinian Authority, is still collecting electricity money and paying his guys.
And that's it.
Nothing has changed.
The status quo remained the same.
In fact, the new status quo became the main status quo.
And nothing else actually on the ground has changed, aside from the fact that the so-called final status issues have been completely redefined.
And if you are as a Palestinian, come and say, but listen, the right of return is essential and it is the core of the Palestinian struggle.
And it's recognized in international law as a right that has to be exercised.
They call you a radical.
They call you a radical and they wouldn't even listen to you.
They wouldn't even publish your articles.
They wouldn't host you in their programs.
You become this crazy maniac talking about all these weird things.
But you know, the proper thing to talk about now, the polite thing to talk about in polite company, normalization with Israel.
Peace for peace.
Forget about the land.
Forget about the refugees.
Forget about the settlements.
Forget about everything else.
Let's just talk about peace for the sake of peace.
You see?
Mm-hmm.
And you know, if they really intended to let the West Bank and Gaza Strip go free as an independent state, then they could support the right of return to the West Bank at least, you know, no, you can't have Jaffa back, but you can at least move back to the West Bank and build a prosperous and free Palestine there if you want.
But that's not even on the table because they don't even, I've never even heard him discuss that at all because you don't want to keep the West Bank.
Exactly.
I will challenge you even more, Scott, on this one.
If indeed they had any intention whatsoever of giving Palestinians a state within whatever zones in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, why?
Why do you as the American administration continue talking about a Palestinian state while continuing to fund the Israeli settlements, illegal Jewish settlements in the West Bank that are impeding any potential for a continuous Palestinian state?
I mean, you can't say one thing and do the exact opposite and still want us to believe that after all of these years that you are an honest peace broker.
So the U.S. has done everything in its power to ensure that none of the Palestinian demands are met.
And I'm not talking in terms of political pressure.
I am talking in terms of physically impeding that possibility by funding these settlements because the money that goes to the army, what is now under Obama, it became $3.8 billion in addition to billions of dollars in loan guarantees and other perks and so forth that are often not counted.
Let's just talk about the $3.8 billion.
Most of this goes to the Israeli army, to the military industry, to security issues.
Well, you said it yourself, Scott, Netanyahu has cleverly defined and redefined what the security means.
So now settlements are security.
The firing zone are security.
The no-go zone are security.
The army zones are security.
The bypass Jewish only roads are security issues.
Establishing a security, which means logically so much of the American money actually went to fund these very obstacles to peace, as the American government once called it in the 90s and so forth.
And yet at the same time, they still talk to Palestinians about the possibility of establishing a state.
Where?
Where?
In Jordan?
In Nigeria?
Where do we establish a state if you have already taken that state from us and made it impossible for any Palestinian town to be connected to any town anywhere?
Not just Gaza and the West Bank are completely removed and disconnected from one another.
The Northern West Bank is cut off from the South.
Jerusalem is entirely isolated.
Forget about Nablus and Jenin and these areas.
They are surrounded.
Bethlehem is entirely surrounded by a wall.
How is Bethlehem to be part of any continuous Palestinian state?
This historic Palestinian town that goes back before Jesus Christ.
How can it possibly be part of a Palestinian state if it's entirely surrounded by an Israeli wall that is not going to be moved anytime soon?
Yeah.
Well, you said it.
That is their plan.
You just have to have your Palestinian state in Jordan.
We'll just call you Jordanians.
The rest of the Palestinians might not be refugees yet, but they will be someday if the Israelis get their way, I think is the answer right there.
By the way, I don't know if you saw this, but this morning at Mondewise, Biden forces tried to debunk story that he threatened to cut aid to Israel over settlements 38 years ago and the New York Times reported that he was banging his fist on the table in an argument with Menachem Begin and they said they had never seen an Israeli prime minister confronted like that in the Senate ever and Biden told him, you've got to stop these settlements or the two state solution is never going to happen, pal.
And then and now he's been so bad on this for the last 40 years, he's pretending that he was never good on it.
And how dare you accuse me of ever being having the slightest thing to say about what was happening to the Palestinians here?
That's right.
I mean, the poor guy.
Now, all of this hard work that he put forth in all of these years to prove that he is, I mean, the guy we spoke about it earlier, he declared, I am a Zionist, he said.
You don't have to be Jewish to be a Zionist because I'm a Zionist.
I am the proof that Zionism, you know, goes cross religious lines.
And here he is having to defend himself against that kind of accusation.
It reminds me when Barack Obama had to defend himself against his own name.
I don't know if you recall that spectacle when when people were saying he's a secret Muslim and he was confronted about his name, Hussein.
And he said, no, no, no, I assure you my name.
You know, he gave a talk in Florida, I believe, when he said Barack is not actually coming from Arabic.
It doesn't mean Baraka, which means blessing.
It actually comes from Hebrew.
So he'd say it is the origins, the etymology of his name in order for him not to be accused of being a secret closet Muslim or or whatever.
And now Biden has to be go through the same process of having to cleanse his his sheet from, you know, that he is indeed a good guy and he has never criticized Israel.
But the strange thing about this is that and I've actually recently wrote an article kind of doing a bit of discourse analysis to the Republican discourse, the public and narrative at the Republican National Convention, you know, that we are no longer talking about, you know, individuals or the establishment of the Republican Party.
But now the rank and file within the Republican Party itself are truly, truly pro-Israel, but not for the right reasons, not for, you know, geopolitical strategies, military alliances.
It's entirely a religious mantra.
But the thing about the Democratic Party and that should really give a major opening to Biden to to navigate a new discourse is that within the rank and file within the Democratic Party, for the first time in its history, the Democratic Party is actually anti-Israel.
So take advantage of this, Biden, say, listen, I am not beholden to the donors.
I'm not beholden to the establishment's priorities.
I am beholden to the rank and file of my own party.
And they want me to be more evenhanded, more balanced, condition my support to Israel based on Israel's own behavior and so forth and so on.
This is a historic opportunity for him to take advantage of this massive change that is happening within the Democratic Party and yet somehow is still copying the exact same strategies of previous administrations.
Never question Israel at any juncture and apologize to any mistake that you made or misjudgment you have made in the past regarding your love with Israel.
Nothing has changed.
You know, it's funny, though, because even that kind of flirtation with the open annexation there in July was enough to push the margin somewhat on the side of, you know, among liberal Jewish Zionists here in America.
Peter Beinart finally threw in the towel, said he's a one state guy now.
Zionism means Jewish home, not Jewish state.
And we can live side by side with these people.
Ali Abunimah says so.
It'll be cool.
And because they were the ones, right, the two state solution propaganda, it was supposed to buy you off, but it never did.
But what it did do was it bought off the writers at the Nation magazine.
You know, hey, someday there's going to be two states and it'll be fine.
And when they're that blatant that, no, there's not, these people will not have independence and they will not have freedom as Israeli, you know, citizens or subjects either, that, you know, I think is really radicalizing the left half of the Democrats, as you say there.
And I don't know that it's an opportunity for Biden because you think about the hell to pay there would be financially and in terms of the organizational establishment of the Democratic Party if he were to turn now.
But I do think that it means, certainly the future is on your side here on that side of the aisle.
At least they should, if they really do care about that future, at least they should feel a little bit hesitant.
This is not business as usual.
Things are indeed changing.
And I am, I'm glad that you mentioned that the change that's happening within the, you know, the, the, the, not just the Jewish community within that special, you know, kind of like liberal Zionist component within the Jewish community that always perceived itself to be somewhat progressive yet wholeheartedly pro-Israel.
And I think they are also reaching a similar conclusion.
So we have to contend with this fact.
If no Palestinian state will be established, what is the alternative?
Because that's the thing that they always threw at us.
Well, you guys behave yourself and we'll give you a state.
You guys stop the incitement and we'll give you a state.
Stop blobbing rockets on, you know, in Israel and we will give you a state.
It's just, you're not getting the state because you're not behaving yourself.
I mean, that's really what the gist of it, but now it's becoming very, very clear that we are not getting a state because the Israelis are now saying, we will not give you a state regardless of what you do, regardless of how you behave, regardless of the form of resistance you are going to use, the state is off the table because all the issues that matters to the state are no longer on the table.
So you can talk about the state, but there are no components of a state.
It's the matter of basic logic that no state is forthcoming, which means that Israel will now become officially, per its own definition, an apartheid state.
And I think many people now within the Zionist, liberal Zionist wings, that maybe at one point they were really truly, they're not, you know, schemers, they are not, you know, in intention.
They really did believe themselves indoctrinated over the years to believe that Israel is on the right side of history and are making the right moral decision.
And I think many of them are now waking up.
I don't know if it's too little, too late or not, you know, we have to stay hopeful.
We have to keep on fighting because no matter what Netanyahu does or doesn't do, there is still a Palestinian people and they are still mistreated really badly and they are still oppressed and subjugated.
So whatever the formulation is or whatever our view of the future is, we have to challenge that.
We can't accept oppression as a status quo.
We have to challenge it.
How do we do it?
In my opinion, it's something that I've been arguing for years and I've argued in this show there is no way around a one state coexistence based on equal rights for both nations and both peoples.
And now we are organizing actually officially in Israel and Palestine itself to create this kind of, you know, momentum to actually push for that one state.
Tell me more about that.
Well, we are now establishing a group of Palestinian and Israeli intellectuals, former politicians.
Some of them are actually former Knesset members.
We haven't officially went out to the public yet.
We are just basically trying to formulate the ideas itself, write down what is our discourse, how do we want to approach this issue.
And of the many projects regarding the one state that have sprung up over the years, I think this one is the most promising because these are real people on the ground.
It's in Haifa itself, with connections to Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza and all over the world.
And now we are basically holding intense meetings over Zoom and all of that.
We are formulating committees and we are going to be going out there.
In Palestine and Israel, we are going to actually be going from door to door.
We are going to be holding community events, we are going to be holding conferences and we are going to try to engage politicians, people in the media and so forth in order for us to push this idea that we all along knew that it was the only way of doing it, but we never really organized around it because perhaps we did not feel like there was readiness and preparedness on the part of the people that they are willing to actually engage us.
Because, you know, a lot of people were still hanging on this notion that a two state is still possible.
And now that it's over, this is the perfect opportunity to actually go to the street and engage people.
And the reason that I myself did not champion this publicly too much is the fact that I felt like we can't fall into the trap of political elitism where you kind of formulate ideas in Brussels or Paris or New York and feel so good about them and, you know, and create this big hoopla within universities, within kind of various elitist educational institutions, but do not engage the people.
Without the people, you have absolutely nothing.
Well, this time around, the one state group plans to actually start the idea, the process of fomenting and formulating the idea will actually start in the street and as a starting point to actually become a full fledged movement.
Perhaps at one point, at this point, we are not calling it a movement.
We are just, basically it's just a group trying to kind of think around the same points.
And the number of people who are joining us from all over the world really is just, took us by surprise to the point that now having a single group doesn't work and we are dividing ourselves to many different committees, each responsible for a particular aspect in promoting that and hopefully I will be the spokesperson for the North American component of the organization.
Man, that's great.
I know you already know, but make sure all of us anti-war guys are on your email list there, antiwar.com guys, so we can promote all this as soon as you guys are ready to take steps forward and have things to promote.
Is there a site yet?
Not quite yet.
Because we are still finalizing the material before we, you know, introduce ourselves via social media, videos, all of these other platforms.
Great.
All right.
Well, that's wonderful, man.
I'm really glad to hear that and can't wait to help to cover it and help promote it for what it's worth.
Do the best I can to as soon as you got something for me.
Thank you, Scott.
All right, you guys.
That is the great Ramzi Baroud, and here he is again writing at antiwar.com.
People of the cave, read it and weep.
This is just bleh.
People of the cave, Palestinians take their fight for justice to the mountains.
Thanks again.
Thanks for having me, Scott.
Take care.
The Scott Horton Show, Anti-War Radio, can be heard on KPFK 90.7 FM in LA, APSradio.com, antiwar.com, scotthorton.org, and libertarianinstitute.org.
