Sorry, I'm late.
I had to stop by the Whites Museum again and get the fingered at FDR We know Al-Qaeda, Zawahiri is supporting the opposition in Syria.
Are we supporting Al-Qaeda in Syria?
It's a proud day for America And by God, we've kicked Vietnam syndrome once and for all.
Thank you very very much I say it, I say it again, you've been hacked You've been took You've been hoodwinked These witnesses are trying to simply deny things that just about everybody else accepts as a fact He came, he saw, he died.
We ain't killing they army, but we killing them We be on CNN like say our names, been saying, saying three times The meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world, then there's going to be an invasion All right, you guys introducing Eric Margulies He is the author of War at the Top of the World and American Raj, and he writes of course at ericmargulies.com Welcome back to the show.
How you doing, Eric?
Thank you, Scott.
As always, glad to be back with you Very happy to have you here.
And you know, I was really happy to see that you wrote this obit for Uri Avnery Or Avnery, I don't know We used to run him all the time at antiwar.com, not every single column, but pretty much at antiwar.com and he was such an interesting character who Of course died last week.
And so I thought what a great opportunity to have you on to talk all about him Apparently, of course, you knew the guy so do tell Well, Scott, I didn't know him personally to my sorrow But I certainly read his column every week Which I got and had enormous respect for him He really I felt an affection for him, too He was a he was this overused maverick He was stuck by his principles He was I said he was like a biblical prophet In telling the israelis what they were doing wrong with the palestinians He was hated and reviled as a result and Nevertheless, he was a great man who wrote with enormous moral force and great intellectual clarity And now so you write all about his background there, too um and I guess, you know, we'll talk about the the clarity on the the You know independence for the palestinians and all that But can you just tell us a little bit about his background and why he was such an important writer?
Sure, he was he was born in in germany in the 1920s And his family who were jewish emigrated to then british-ruled palestine in the 1930s to escape the nazi movement Uh, he was a firebrand when he was young he joined the irgun which was uh, Really what in today's terminology would be called a terrorist group of A jewish terrorist group that attacked arabs attacked arab villages attacked british targets And committed very serious crimes but to try and shock the british out of palestine, but he He tires grew sickened by these Excesses the murderous nature of the good Good, sorry, and eventually he went on to form a position with Young jewish moderates.
Meanwhile, he served in the israeli military In his regular irregular units Uh, he fought he was seriously wounded up in galilee He saw a great deal of fighting and eventually had a share of war and vitriol and Anger and things and he moved over to a centrist position and began calling after the 1967 war Uh where israel gained a huge amount of territory.
He began calling for uh a Humane, uh an enlightened policy towards the palestinians and for creation of a palestinian state Right.
Well, so and that was it not until after 67 that he started pushing for independence.
I thought it was Really right after the 48 war, no Uh, I think it was after the 48 war.
You're right, but uh, he didn't uh, That was a sort of a personal position he became politically active and formed a peace movement And and finally received the knesset israeli parliament uh 67 war my dates could be Yeah, no, I guess that sounds right and um, believe me i'm not an expert on him But uh, anyway, you know, so it always seemed well, first of all One of the things remarkable remarkable about uh reading his articles is that of course he's there all along as you said moved to um palestine in 1933 fought in the 48 war and then You know, at least mostly knew better all along As the pro-war party in israel has done exactly the opposite of follow his advice this whole time but so You know, he's on a first name basis with all of the most famous israeli leaders this whole time and is constantly telling stories About why they all hated shimon perez or why?
You know that one time he met with ariel sharon Right before the sabra and shatila massacre, whatever it is, you know, he's got a thousand anecdotes Uh, I may have made up that last one.
I forget but um a thousand little anecdotes about all of these guys Uh and and what he told them to not do that they did anyway, basically, right?
That's correct.
He had the he was the insider in israeli politics and I must say he was he as much as he was hated by the right wing which called him a traitor and Right wing tried to kill him once.
Uh, and he was vitriol was poured on him A certain amount of israelis respected him too because he wouldn't yield in his views and I think deep down at heart Many even on his israel's far right knew that what he was saying was true Yeah Well, and this is kind of one of the strange things right is that I guess he would be characterized as some far leftist for having This view I guess because this is the only issue that really matters right is what to do with the palestinians and their land um and yet Independence for the west bank and the gaza strip, but that's the consensus.
That's been the position of the u.s.
Government at least officially Uh as well as the entire rest of the world, right?
That's not a radical leftist position at all to just say give up the west bank and gaza and let them have their measly 22 percent of what's left of palestine Is that what everybody thinks only except the lakut?
Well, it was until trump came along But now even that that very de minimis position Of the united states is being reduced and rescinded uh just today that awful Creature nikki haley at the un uh announced another uh diatribe against the palestinians and how Can't give them any more money Cutting off aid to the un organization And which has been feeding the palestinians all these years so the israelis kicked out the palestinians They took their land and they got the is americans to pay for them To give them just enough food to stay alive.
But now even this food Supply is under threat the is americans is right I don't know if you meant to say that or not, but it's hard to not make that mistake uh Yeah, well and so um but yeah, isn't that strange though that You know basically just uh, I mean the american rule aside for the moment that just even you know In terms of israeli politics, they're just basic fairness and good sportsmanship in victory Is uh completely off the table and even though america supposedly outlawed after world war ii invading other countries and Occupying their land and transferring civilian colonists onto conquered land Um, the israelis do it all the time get away with it Anyway, they're they have this, uh, I guess slow motion not too slow But somewhat slow motion annexation of the west bank going on in front of everyone's eyes and um and And yuri avnery for for what a great example Really also just prove what a marginal position it is in israeli politics that Hey guys, this is kind of you know untenable.
I mean ehud barack right would say things like that sometimes that this is apartheid and it's not going to work over the long term that kind of thing, but but uh Certainly never really fought about it and and was a bad prime minister on these issues when he was in charge of them um, but so I mean, I guess I don't really know but am I right though, it seems like um, Yuri, avnery's position in israeli politics really was far was considered to be a far marginal leftist position That the palestinians ought to have any form of real self-government at all That's right.
Uh, it's supporting terrorism.
That's what the far right would say as it was gobbling up uh palestinian land but uh the whole the israel's left wing was Generally in favor to varying degrees of of making some kind of peace agreement with the palestinians and the trouble is that the left lost its uh its potency in israel Uh, and the united states undermined israel's pro-peace left movement So in the net result All the support went to the increasingly ever more right right-wing liquid party Which uri avnery by the way refers to as 70 fascists Avnery see I could have probably learned how to pronounce that at some point um yeah, well and so I don't know it seems like there must be more to say because I think about how valuable his articles have been A week in a week out for years now to me.
Um But uh, so I hate to give him short shrift.
He ought to be remembered, you know Even better than we're doing so far eric say some more things well, he I always regarded him as the conscience of israel he uh He spoke the words that no one wanted to hear.
I I try and do that when I write my own columns I very often Write about unpalatable unpleasant unwelcome truths And people usually don't want the truth.
They want to be told how great they are but unfortunately, he wouldn't tolerate that for a minute and he was I thought he was very important because We do not have a comparable figure in the arab world uh Of nary was really a one of a kind and he showed that in israel No matter how much it's criticized uh that there are men of goodwill who want to reach a Reasonable peace agreement with their neighbors, but the problem is that the neighbors Really are not in favor of peace because they're saying well, wait a minute We're the agreed party.
They took all our land away now.
They want peace.
Well, uh We want our land back first Right Yeah, it's such a dishonest framing as though peace is the issue like there's a war on and there's going to be a peace treaty Instead of the war was over almost as soon as it started back in 67 the palestinians lost and now they're being occupied and stolen from You've writ large, you know Just oh, yeah Where's the where one of the palestinians ever going to come to the table like they're not already locked up in a internment camp uh, yeah, just the whole framing you got to hand it to them though the the brilliance of You know twisting the truth of just the most basic terms that these issues are discussed in you know, well the pro-israeli groups in the united states have a Great influence with the u.s.
Media Uh, they own congress and now uh They own mr.
Trump, too He owns them.
I don't know who owns who but uh, they uh, their influence is is is paramount And there's nobody on the other side To say anything like I know when I write a column where I call for a palestinian state And some kind of justice for these terribly downtrodden people Uh, I get all kinds of hate mail and angry letters and my newspaper publishers are threatened and there's a storm Uh, and there's nothing from the other side Occasional letters and dear.
Mr. Eric.
Thank you very much.
But by and large there's there's no countervailing pressure group Uh to help get the story out.
So we get one side thus it has been since the 1940s 1940s in the u.s.
You know, my mother was for one of the first american journalists to really crisscross the middle east and a woman on her own and this was in the early 50s and she was finally silenced The newspapers from she wrote Who were threatened with advertiser boycotts?
Uh people came banging on our door at night threatening to kill me throw acid in my face, uh Well, this is after the war too, you know and uh temp passions were running high uh, but the point was that my mother and other people who tried to Show that there were millions of palestinians living in tents uh were Well, and you know, here's the thing too is people understand now I mean if they're interested in this stuff at all The story of the nakba and the 750 000 people who were rousted out of their homes But there was a giant lie that stood for years, right that this was a land without people So when your mother was reporting that that was a big deal She was undermining the major premise of the zionist project that hey, no harm.
No foul There was no one here to steal from it was fine That's right scott Uh, it was the big primary line Uh land without people for a people without land.
It was a great slogan.
It just was a lie Yeah, really amazing.
All right now listen here folks, um Because it's not going to keep coming up because the man's dead he had a stroke and then heart failure and that was it He was what 93 or 92 94 years old some um But we have his archive at antiwar.com.
And of course, it's at gush shalom.com.
I think there's a hyphen in there gush shalom.com and You know, it's one of those things where if you were to just go back and read quite a few dozen of those articles You would learn so much of the context of the state of israel from the get-go through the eyes of a guy Who was there all along?and Is really important stuff so I do hope everyone well, at least some of you guys will really dive in And read a lot of that.
But so speaking of which then um you know in terms of about israel and Their hold on the current administration as you were talking about there eric.
Um What about iran?
They pulled out of the deal.
They've got You know, they're going to extraordinary lengths I guess to force these new sanctions and to force european companies to stop dealing with the iranians um and You know, they're convinced and and there's a great article in low blog.
I'm gonna try to get the guy on Uh a great article about how the iranian regime is not about to fall But at the same time how many of the administration officials?
Have convinced themselves that it is.
It's the foundation for defensive democracies along with john bolton the um You know neocon ally anyways, not really a neocon, but he's very close with them.
Of course the whole aei set and um You know, they seem to have as a major premise of their uh You know iranian policy here uh of the Brittleness of the regime I guess and how they'll be able to topple it pretty soon It'll be like the fall of the soviet union or some kind of thing So you think that's right?
And do you think that's right?
Or do you think that's crazy?
It's wrong, it's wishful wishful thinking on steroids uh the You know, we heard the exact same theory, uh in dealing with iraq The idea was to make life such hell for ordinary iraqis through sanctions boycotts That they would eventually rise up and overthrow saddam who had been become disobedient to washington's tutelage Uh, and it didn't happen And in fact, you remember when president, uh bush Uh called for iranians to rise up iraqis to rise up and revolt They were squashed the river the great rebellion didn't happen until bush won.
So Um, but this is a cherished dream in washington promoted by all these uh Uh arms of the israel lobby like the heritage foundation defense of democracies Etc, etc And the news media keeps playing up and saying oh iranians are unhappy at The government spending money in iraq to help defend the iraqis I have never seen anything like this in the Local media, it is a wishful thought um, and while there may be There are obviously certain iranians who are suffering and fed up with the economic warfare being waged against iran By the united states.
I don't think this is going to result in the overthrow of the government The scott horton show is brought to you by books Particularly kesslin runs a new dystopian novel about the very near future By the great charles featherstone kesslin runs also no dev no ops No it by hussein badak chani and the war state by mike swanson about the rise of the military Industrial complex in america after world war ii.
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There's no counterforce.
There's no other side of the argument It's not like there's an iran lobby Uh, you know you have people like trita parsi who's like hey, hey, hey i'm an american i'm just for peace with iran, but You don't have anyone who says You know who's outright on the payroll of the iranians pushing their view instead You have these things that are you know, like you're talking about obviously cooked up in some washington dc pr firm That I mean even the way they said it was, you know, completely tone deaf and ironic and ridiculous where they're saying Yeah, the iranians are fed up with their money weight their government wasting money on foreign adventures instead of spending it at home Like really?
And that means they're about to overthrow their regime.
Huh?
So what does that say about us then?
That should be the americans who are fed up.
Exactly With foreign adventures, but it's true in the part.
It's part of the totally warped view We have of iran and its people Ironically, it's one of the more democratic governments in the muslim world not a hundred percent, but i'd say I call it half a democracy and compare it to the Saudis ultra reactionary backwards far right-wing bedouins Uh, iran comes across as a civilized country unlike our allies Saudi saudi arabia and the gulf states, right?
I remember when I was a little kid learning about yeah You know in this far away mysterious place Saudi arabia, they still cut your hands off for stealing cut your head off for murder this kind of thing And uh, then come to grow up and find out that yeah, they're our closest satellite State of the empire over there in the middle east and uh, you know, we fight wars for them all the time Well, they uh, I I just read a very interesting article on the the nexus between uh, the israelis And the pro israel groups in the states and the washington pr firms and and the gulf states saudi arabia and qatar We see that qatar is Supporting pro israeli groups in the united states with money.
That's interesting.
What piece is this specifically now?
Well, you know, it's one of these things scott where I read it and I can't remember where I read it Uh, because I read so much stuff.
I think it was it was in the may have been in the washington post All right with some online source, so i'll find it qatari support for uh For israeli groups in the u.s, right focused on lobbying qatar is spending 16 million dollars, I think a year on on lobbying and But it's gotten the gulf states like qatar and the united arab emirates have really gotten in cahoots with the israelis They have similar Plans And uh, they are now best friends, uh, we knew her but but I haven't seen it so vividly expressed Yeah, well i'll see if I can find that uh, yeah, and of course there are all new think tanks that we should have a master list somewhere to share about all of these but uh, You know the the middle east institute and you know I don't know a dozen more new ones that are all backed by the saudis basically playing the same game that the israelis played Well, we'll just create our you know a half dozen or a dozen think tanks until We have you know, basically cornered the market on foreign policy opinion You know just the way it used to be with the english And they had their cfr and and the israelis just created their you know Seven different alternatives or 10 different alternatives to the cfr and then they just drowned them out and then they took them over anyway i've done uh radio and tv shows with some of these, uh, spokesmen for the saudis and the emirates uh who are arabs that purport to be uh defending the rights of the middle middle east and turns out our closets, uh, Advocates of u.s.
Right wing and israeli policy in the region Yeah money talks Yeah, all right now, but so here's the same thing that's always been the case Which is that the pentagon doesn't really want to have a war with iran, right?
I mean even if the air force and the navy Talk big about what they could do The army and the marines don't want to have a war with iran.
Tell me that's the case again, please Well, it is the case or at last I heard when i've been in the pentagon uh Consulting it's that has been the case too that the orders will the senior officers will follow orders if so ordered but by and large they worry about their institutional wellness and The u.s.
Is fighting wars everywhere.
I mean, we're we're I have an article here.
We're running low on bombs Uh, I I learned that we may have to contract out bomb making abroad Because we can't make them fast enough.
That'd be great start buying all the conventional bombs from china Yeah from they'd be a lot cheaper Hey, listen, so was this the the article the wall street journal the new lobbying cutter targeted 250 trump Influencers to change us policy That's the one.
Okay, great.
So that's wall street journal there well worth reading and uh, and a bit Unusual for the wall street journal being so plain spoken.
Yeah Yeah, i'll be interested to take a look at that.
Anyway, the uh, the the senior generals, uh, Don't want a war when bush Number two was in power and wanted a war pushed by the neocon cabal around him Uh, there was almost an open revolt in the pentagon And and also the defense intelligence agency.
Yeah and cia and remember they came out with national the national Estimate the nie it's called and uh Which came out and said that iran had no nuclear weapons Even though that was the reason being cited for invading, uh, iran so and that scanners the use of scottish expression the uh, the bush administration Claimed that it had to act stop nuclear development, uh Its own its own intelligence people said there wasn't well now fast forward The reason was that the americans are up to their ears in small wars and wars cost money And right now the defense offense budget Is being severely squeezed a war against iran would be a real would be a big deal It's not just bombing a few local arabs Uh, iran is a big sophisticated country of 80 million people and I know that the pentagon Uh had set up an initial target list of about 200 2300 Targets that would be struck.
So talking a big war Okay, but okay, and I know you already answered this but just for Perfect clarity here just how crazy and stupid is it not to prejudice the question or anything here lead the witness But just how crazy and stupid is it say on a scale of one to ten?
To think that that what they would do is maybe pull off some kind of coup Some kind of regime change and install the mujahideen ecolg in power or for that matter the son of the shah pahlavi Well, I've met him and let me tell you he's no shah Um and There's no no one in iran is any use for the mujahideen Kalk, they're a bunch of they were a bunch of left-wing Student radicals who turned into real terrorists they were They assassinated a good part of the original iranian government after the revolution Uh, they have they command no respect in iran.
They were regarded as american stooges Which they are that's who's financing them with the support of neocon politicians in washington uh, so The idea that uh of attacking iran, let me to answer your question, uh quote the great Talley wrong, uh napoleon's foreign minister Who said in regard to another issue he said worse than a mistake worse than a crime.
It's a mistake Yeah I thought you were gonna say they've learned nothing and forgotten nothing Ha ha No one would fit too This was about the uh, the murder of the duke don gannett who uh by napoleon And which was considered even in those days a major crime so It was absolutely united states will never Get itself out of iran if it gets into a war there.
It's going to have to put two troops on the ground You can't just win the war by bombing the iranians are too smart and tough for that but Maybe the israelis want iran just bombed back to the stone age as happened with iraq so It would be a smoking ruin that didn't threaten Anyone would leave the israelis cart blanche in the middle east to do whatever they wanted Almost the case now.
Well, you know, there was a quote recently from um I forget if it was uh, the president or it might have been uh, the head of the revolutionary guard corps general solimani I think it was the president who said that you know Any israeli attack would be treated as an attack by the united states and they would respond by hitting american targets Which I guess is a nice way of saying they can't reach israel from iran.
There's no threat to israel at all Maybe they have a few missiles that could get there but not with any real reliable accuracy, I guess and so but you know What we could hit american troops in kuwait could hit american troops at the bagram air base in afghanistan or?
Hit oil refineries and and uh, you know other corporate interests in saudi arabia um, maybe the air base in Qatar or the navy base in bahrain this kind of thing Um Well, that's right he did say that I noted noted it with great interest Uh, the israelis i'm sorry iran could his could hit israel with some intermediate range missiles But they're conventionally armed and all he would do is get the israelis really angry And might the israelis might respond with tactical nuclear weapons Of which they have a great number so the iranians are uh very cautious About that.
That's the reason the iran would never attack israel with nuclear weapons will be blown off the map uh But it's surrounded by nuclear armed israeli forces in the sea in the air israeli missiles, uh, so Americas would be at risk, but who cares in washington that some gi's would be killed by quote terrorists unquote, uh So it's it's the price you pay as the british used to say.
It's the price of empire I don't think that would deter washington's neocons From pressing for a war against this run in iran.
It's their it's their greatest hope it's their silver chalice You know what?
I've always wondered but I don't think I ever asked any of you experts before how come the israelis don't have long-range bombers The idea is they have f-16s right but nothing like a b-52, but why not?
They don't really need them the uh With air-to-air refueling which the israelis have Uh, they're long-range strike fighters.
They like f-15s And some models of the f-16 uh Could can hit every arab or iranian target that there is I guess I was just thinking of in terms of payload, right?
Like f-16 can only drop so many bombs compared to And doesn't seem like they're that hard to make a long-range bomber, right, especially if you have fighter escorts for them Well, they are they're expensive.
They've got their missiles They've got submarine launched missiles.
They have their own land-based missile force That could take out every Capital from rabat morocco to uh, to tehran to tabriz and in iran I'm, not sure how I they probably could hit pakistan, too so, uh The israelis are too smart Dollar conscious to indulge in things that they really don't need and the u.s.
Has given them F-15s would come formal fuel to the israelis F-15s would come formal fuel tanks That and new air-to-air fueling technology that would allow them to go practically anywhere.
They could hit mosque Well, and I mean their worst brinksmanship on iran was back in 2000 I guess 10 and 11 and 12 against obama Which that was you know, pretty obviously empty threats.
I thought at the time all those I don't know Uh, some of it was was concerning anyway, if not completely convincing Um that they would go ahead and start a war and try to force america into it um, but you know One of the things is obama really took away their last excuse for war when he doubled the locking down of the iranian civilian nuclear program so that I mean it was already safeguarded.
Anyway, as you said the cia already verified.
They weren't even making nukes in the first place but um You know they what the effect of the obama deal was To take that fake issue off the table finally and say no we know for sure that they're not making nuclear weapons So now that trump has withdrawn from the deal and he's you know, obviously he's reinstituting the sanctions But the iranians I mean they're at least right now saw a story yesterday where they took it to the world court Trying to get the sanctions lifted.
They're trying to stay inside the deal They you know have no real motive to make what are they going to do make one nuke and not get attacked While they're making the one nuke, you know Which they'd have to kick the iaea out to make in the first place and you know would take them a long time to do and you know, the whole thing is ridiculous, but so, um you know, I I guess there's not really that much of a threat but At the same time there doesn't seem to be much of a resolution to the outstanding crisis either But it doesn't seem like I guess what i'm trying to say is it doesn't seem like there's Much of even a fake cossus belly that could be drummed up at this point You know, well Probably not but the israelis some some israelis keep saying that there's a nuclear threat from iran It's friends in the u.s.
The the the entourage around trump keep beating on this drum Even though it's patently untrue just as untrue as the that iraq had nuclear weapons Remember, I was one of the few guys Journalists who come out and said at the time that iraq had no nuclear weapons And for for this I was kicked off cnn It's it's a propaganda thing that israel is not afraid of iran from the military point of view it it's uh It's violently anti-iran because it's iran supports the palestinians.
It's the only major country In the region that's still behind the palestinians now that iraq and syria has been largely destroyed Uh that leaves only iran as as its supporter and uh that it prevent iran's Strength prevents the israelis from dominating the gulf Possibly even the saudi oil fields.
That's what it's concerned about.
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My email address is scott at scott horton.org All right, well you want to hang on one more minute and talk about afghanistan of course major taliban attack on ghazni Could compare it to the ted offensive if you want to one way or another um, not as an exact analogy, but maybe to Cite the differences whatever you think is wise about that Um, but of course, you know at the same time the background is that the trump administration finally went along with the taliban demand That they cut the kabul government out of the chain and have direct talks and they have been having some background talks toward the having of better and more talks and Some slight ceasefires and this kind of thing, uh meeting in qatar in fact um, and so, uh I mean, I guess obviously on the face of the taliban are showing that they're the ones in the position of strength Going into these negotiations here if the americans want to do it that they shouldn't think that they're going to get away with too much um But I don't know.
What all do you think it means?
Well, the taliban has been persistent in saying that we won't we won't negotiate With the puppet government and kabul that the americans put into power we want to associate with real afghans I don't know who these real afghans are Uh, but certainly not the kabul government um There's sort of a void that's been created in the u.s Is partly responsible because it discouraged the growth of any nationalist parties that were not under the thumb of the government Uh, so i'm not very positive about that Also, look in in washington No one wants to take authorship of a disaster in afghanistan after 17 Years of war and probably four trillion dollars God knows how many afghan lives not to mention 4 000 american lives and 25 000 wounded american g.i.s uh What did we do this for nobody has an answer, but nobody wants to take authorship of this mess the uh, And there's so many military and political careers that are tied up in this war I mean look at john mccain being deified by the By the pro-trump media moe vanguard by the government pro-government media as a great hero Uh who kept beating the war drums with more war in afghanistan?
Biggest mistake we've ever made in the u.s and all these generals like people like petraeus and things who rose to prominence by Pushing for this war in the mountains.
So there's no lobby for peace in washington That's the problem Average americans don't understand that they're not interested.
It's faded from our consciousness It's been so we have this war being fought by g.i.s from small towns down south And the u.s air power which sustains them and how long they can go on.
I don't know.
It could be a lot longer Yeah, you know, I read a piece this morning and I don't know.
I think it was uh It's either the washington times or defense news, I think it was the one in defense news about james mattis saying, you know Steady as she goes boys all this kind of thing, you know, um, you never get a recognition on that level that well, let's see so Back eight years ago.
We went through this same situation with obama and this is the petraeus area You're talking about where they demanded an extra 90 000 troops or an extra 60 000 end up You know adding up to 100 000 americans and plus another 40 000 nato troops And they accomplished nothing.
The whole thing was for nothing here.
We are right now and so Trump sent what an extra four or five thousand troops a year ago and What difference is this supposed to make mattis is saying, you know?
One day we'll have a negotiation because they're signaling that they want to negotiate now But you know does it seem like there's much for them to negotiate other than the americans leaving They've basically held on this whole time.
It's not like Petraeus's promise ever came true and now the americans are dragging them to the table to Surrender on our terms or anything like that.
So and the taliban's terms have always been pretty maximal Such as get the hell out of here.
And yeah, we still might take kabul You know That's right.
The americans don't want to see another helicopter evacuation from the embassy That's what they're really scared about because that whole kabul government a bunch of corrupt People it's going to collapse like a house of cards the minute in the u.s.
Military and air power pulls out It's you know run for the exits and they don't want to see it Nobody wants to take authorship for it and there are a lot of people in congress These Third-rate politicians we see there who are still favoring the war because they're fighting muslims That's good and they're keeping defense industries going and Their promotions in the military that come from this war something with all the soldiers support If we had more casualties than if it were a bigger war, I think you'd start seeing anti-war sentiment in the states But the pentagon is very clever.
They saw what happened in vietnam.
They said we're not going to let that happen again This is just a little war on the sidelines Yeah, you know i'm hearing more and more kind of uh Not criticisms, but just honest or I mean, I don't know honest but Sort of, you know open admissions that well, you know these Arms manufacturers sure employ a lot of people and those jobs are important and the assumption seems to be I guess that If you close them all down that no one would be able to come up with replacement projects for people to do That same money that's being wasted on war But the idea is no one wants to even take a chance on the short-term sacrifice Of closing down the factory in their town, even though really it doesn't amount to that much You know what?
I mean, especially compared to the fact that you know in the end all this is being wasted on Equipment and on salaries for people who destroy things with that equipment so Uh, none of it is really turning a real profit in any sense of material gain for anyone That's true scott.
But uh the defense industry Uh, and I own some defense shares I have to admit out right in front.
It must be a rich man now I'll tell you what They've done very well uh and I What the defense industry did was open up plants uh all over the country They'd make a new warplane They would make bits and parts the wheels one place the wings and another uh so that everybody in the country, uh felt the prosperity coming from defense contracts were screamed like hell if They were going to end the program And uh, oh my god, they're going to close the factory the town's going to dry up It shouldn't happen.
So yes, right.
There's a built-in resistance to cutting uh addictive defense spending Yeah, I guess the only difference now is as they've run out of excuses for taming the taliban or whatever It is that they claim to be doing that.
Now.
There's sort of openly resorting to saying Yeah, but we need those jobs instead of that kind of being a background motivation that everyone sort of knows that You know, they're they're in on this to some degree or whatever We're made to feel like now it's the last excuse, you know the last refuge of an imperialist and seriously, you know um, I guess it's something else I just read a stephen waltz new book and uh, just reading his takes on um, on uh on grand strategy about the way things are supposed to be that jeez if you were gonna spend all this money to Dominate a part of the planet you would think that you would do it in a part of the planet that matters What difference does it make who's dominating syria and iraq and afghanistan for christ's sake in a world full of europe china and russia You know, what are we doing?
So i'm not saying I would favor and I don't think he's saying he would rather take on greater powers But he's just saying look at if any other country was pissing all of everything every last thing they have away In the desert sands of the middle east the way the u.s is doing think what we would say about them And how stupid their policy is their strategy for dominance is That's quite right scott.
I agree with that entirely and meanwhile our new rivals the the chinese are building roads and ports and airports and Building up their military all the money that they're not wasting on these stupid pointless wars Uh, they're investing in their national strength and we're already at the point now where we're getting squeezed from funds, uh, and the chinese are not So it's very worrisome Yeah.
All right now back to afghanistan for a second Uh, I have a dream that if the americans just left that the kabul government could cut a deal with the taliban that just says Hey, listen, you guys rule pashtunistan and just don't invade kabul and we won't bomb you anymore And no hard feelings something like that.
And yet, uh, I wonder how ridiculously hopeful that is and whether you think that actually no once the americans go and that government falls then the taliban are going to march right into kabul and then The wars with the usbeks and the tajiks and all that are going to go on only now with the taliban In the dominant position and all the folks we've been backing for the last 15 years 17 18 years uh will be the ones to to uh You know be on the receiving end and and maybe we'll even go back to where we were in 2001 when america intervened here Uh, really switching sides against the taliban in favor of their enemies the northern alliance where they really only controlled Like 10 of the very northwest part of the country at that point Uh, or what do you think is going to happen?
Uh best case scenario or worst?
Uh, good, uh, good summary scott.
I can see you're a real afghan scholar um the I think what my book is actually based on your books, so Charmer, uh, my uh, My experience in afghanistan when I was there Both uh in the mid 80s and around 1991 when the war was ending and the soviets pulled out Uh, or the civil civil war in 91 Uh, what's that?
Um that every afghan seemed to know somebody else on the opposite side there are all kinds of tribal and clan links Uh, there were no secrets the soviets couldn't do anything Without the mujahideen knowing about it weeks in advance Uh every troop movement every new, uh rotation of troops.
Everything was known to the afghans So and they were all they all could see That the soviet days were numbered the writing was on the wall The writing is on the wall for the u.s in afghanistan to the afghans see that so you're gonna be sure That uh, everybody there is calling up their cousin saeed who's on the other side And saying listen, we're gonna get together.
Let's have coffee.
Let's talk uh, they're trying to You know feather their nests or find a way when there is change and the collapse comes So it might not be as catastrophic as the fall of saigon uh But I think that the taliban will march into kabul uh and that the current government Uh will run like chickens get on an american plane and fly off to hawaii or something like that Uh and fighting will go on but it'll be more of a peaceful Change than than we've seen in the past Yeah, well, I don't know.
It's uh It's a pretty big bubble to pop but maybe not, you know, maybe there's not that many.
Uh, Uh people to flee I don't know.
Um, let's fire scott.
Well, let's report live when it's happening.
Yeah, you go and i'll take your phone call I'll take your skype call.
Um, I uh Yeah, I mean I think if they're going to kabul if they're determined to go to kabul then that's going to be bloody and ugly and Horrible, I was thinking that maybe that they could learn from the current regime in kabul's mistakes That like hey, you know what?
Maybe we could just have mutual autonomy And and then instead of fighting over who's dominating who all the time after 40 years of this, you know But I understand that there has to be hell to pay after america You know pulls their inflationary bubble out from under the power of those they've propped up here And there's a correction coming Scott you remember in my book I quoted an old afghan prayer, uh, indian prayer, oh lord shiva save us from the fang of the cobra the tooth of the of the tiger and the vengeance of the afghans Yeah, that makes sense.
I could buy that although Well, I don't know I guess there's this big peace march have you read about that?you know all these people all these activists marching from helmand province up to kabul and Led by a blind man whose wife died and all this great stuff.
I mean memorable important moving stuff um I don't know.
I mean obviously people like that don't necessarily usually win the day um, but uh It seems like 40 years is a long time to have your country at war and mostly because a bunch of foreigners say so You know what?
I mean?
That's right.
Remember the taliban started that way by a march uh organized by a low small town preacher umar and and seminary islamic seminary students Joined and somehow they got arms from the pakistanis And they marched in their local area to stop brigandage And stop rape of women.
That was the birth of taliban.
Yeah, it worked And the government was so corrupt that it collapsed Yeah, well, um, you know, i'm ed rashid actually you and here both my footnote for just that part of the story right there um, and I was reading him he wrote the taliban and uh I forgot the one about pakistan but anyway I was reading him in the new york review of books today and he's really afraid that they're gonna that the us is going to pull out and and uh, you know looking at the coming taliban victory You know, he's really worried about what's going to happen to the people of the north you could tell which I don't trust him At all.
I think he's an american agent of influence And he's constantly quoted in the foreign press because he says what we want to hear i'd be cautious without my machine Well, his book the taliban is pretty great.
I mean, I I think you'd like it if you haven't read it but uh We do have it somewhere.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean he really tells a lot of that same story as you do.
Um, You know, it's a different perspective but not much different on a lot of it Um, in fact, you know, he's the one who really I quote and borrow his sources to um in quoting the clinton administration talking about how They very well meant to help the saudis and pakistanis support the taliban rise to power and how They didn't want a peace deal either They wanted to make sure that the taliban conquered the whole country So that they would have be able to provide the security for their pipeline and all that And uh, not that that worked out very well for him or anything But that certainly wasn't the cnn version Which was we have to go save the people of afghanistan from the taliban before they destroy any more buddhas And the women that's right.
You know, it's interesting scott that that intervention by the the gulf states and saudi arabia Kuwait bahrain, etc Mark the beginning of independent actions by these States that we're seeing now In yemen, for example in other parts of the mid-east where they've gotten too big for their britches.
They want to be little little napoleons Yeah well, you know a friend said to me the other day that when Something big happens and she wants to know what's going on.
She turns to you and to me so Uh, I guess i'll be pleased that she'll be listening to this interview of you by me uh And and i'm very happy that I that I can continue to bring you as a guest to my great audience here Your great work eric.
Thank you very much Scott i'm very happy to have you asking all the right intelligent questions.
I'm trying All right, you guys that's the great eric margulies and i'm telling you You don't even have any idea how good these books are war of the top of the world and american raj liberation or domination They're both just excellent and look up everything he writes at eric margulies dot com and spell it like margolis eric margulies.com All right y'all thanks find me at libertarian institute.org at scott horton.org anti-war.com and reddit.com Slash scott horton show.
Oh, yeah, and read my book fools errand timed and the war in afghanistan at fools errand.us You
