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Thank you very, very much.
I say it, I say it again, you've been had, you've been took, you've been hoodwinked.
These witnesses are trying to simply deny things that just about everybody else accepts as fact.
He came, he saw, he died.
But we ain't killing they army, but we killing them.
We be on CNN like, say our name, Ben, say it, say it three times.
The meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world.
Then there's going to be an invasion.
Aren't you guys?
Scott Horton show introducing Pat McGeehan.
He is in the lower house representative in West Virginia.
And you may have recently heard him talking about his book, Stoicism and the Statehouse on the Tom Woods show.
But my interest is in this bill defeated, but still important.
The defend the guard legislation that Mr.
McGeehan introduced in the West Virginia State House of Representatives there.
Welcome to the show.
How are you doing?
Very good, Scott.
Thanks for having me on.
Pleasure to be on with you.
Yeah, yeah.
Very happy to have you here.
And listen, I really appreciate the point behind this bill even more than, you know, I one time gave a speech at a Tenth Amendment Center conference.
Oh, I should say here the article is rattling the Pentagon's cage.
Defend the guard legislation threatens the unconstitutional status quo.
That is at the Tenth Amendment Center dot com.
And I gave a speech for them one time where I said, you know, we ought to do.
We ought to figure out how to nullify the empire from the bottom up interposition.
That's the libertarian way.
We need to figure out what to do about this.
And I didn't really have any very good ideas because I hadn't really had the time to think much about it or anything.
But it looks like you are right on the right track for how regular people through bottom up power in America could actually frustrate the designs of the empire by, for one thing, refusing to allow their state guard forces to be nationalized for use in unconstitutional wars.
That's correct.
Yes, that's correct.
You kind of hit the nail on the head there.
So, you know, the bill I drafted was based on the Jeffersonian principles of 1798, you know, around the doctrine of nullification or, as you put it, interposition.
And we're a brother, sovereign states in the union can essentially nullify or refuse to enforce federal decrees.
So my bill went after the out of control warfare state or the empire.
And the bill basically stated that any West Virginia Guard unit could not be deployed overseas into combat zones without an express declaration of war from the U.S. Congress.
So I introduced that bill the last three years.
But the first time I introduced it is when the Republicans gained control of both chambers of the state legislature after the 2014 elections in West Virginia.
They gained both majorities in both chambers, the state Senate and the lower house for the first time since the Great Depression.
So when I went around and drafted this bill up, I had kind of had it on my mind ever since I really read, I think, Tom Wood's book on nullification years ago and came up with the idea.
But you hear about the 10th Amendment Center that had also had that idea.
So kind of work with them on it.
And so I introduced it 2015 and a lot of different Republicans and Democrats signed onto it and co-sponsored it, especially members of the Liberty Caucus, which have sort of indirectly taken the title of chairman of the so-called Liberty Caucus in the legislature.
And so it started going forward when I introduced it.
And I just so happened to be granted the title of a sort of a no nonsense minor committee in the legislature called the Homeland Security Committee.
I was vice chair of that, still am.
It's really a do nothing committee, but I specifically wanted to get on that committee because I knew that I was going to introduce this bill and it would be referenced to that committee.
So after I introduced the bill and it actually got on the agenda on my committee, I pushed for it to get on the agenda.
Then all heck sort of broke out in a sort of a way I got called into the speaker's office, the speaker of the House's office, with a few others in our so-called Liberty Caucus who had co-sponsored the bill.
And there sitting in the speaker's office was the adjutant general of the West Virginia National Guard, a two-star general who is really just a political appointee, Scott.
And the meeting lasted for, I'm trying to guess, maybe 45 minutes to an hour in which the adjutant general, you know, he was in uniform, so it was a little bit kind of out of the norm, you know, you're in uniform, you know, a civilian controlled government sort of kind of felt like a banana Republican away.
But anyway, he told everybody in the room, the speaker had a few aides in there along with myself and my good friend, Michael Folk, who's also, you know, a Liberty-leaning guy.
And we were all in there and the adjutant general just came out and said, look, I received a phone call from the Pentagon and I believe he said it was the chief of staff of the U.S.
Army and threatening that if that bill continued or saw the light of day, then the Pentagon would either put all the West Virginia Guard units on the so-called BRAC list, which means they would be terminated, or the Pentagon would move all the different West Virginia Guard units into other states.
And so that was very surprising because, you know, we're just a small minority, little state legislators in the lower house over a simple bill where the Pentagon just sort of completely, you know, just overreacted, in my opinion.
And then I started kind of putting two and two together.
And it actually happened to be a very popular bill in West Virginia because there was many West Virginians that lost their lives in the wars of Iraq and Afghanistan.
And the adjutant general in that meeting actually started to break down a little bit and get teary eyed because he had said that he had lost good men in Afghanistan and he agreed with the bill.
But we just can't do it.
And the speaker said, you know, yeah, we got to pull this off the agenda.
And and so, you know, we we kind of just said myself and some others who were backing the bill just said, hey, we're going to go ahead and push push this forward regardless.
It's the right thing to do.
But while the bill filled the past, I think its story reveals the power and potential of this type of approach at the state level, because as you mentioned, it's very much easier to get very liberty oriented individuals elected to the state legislature because the districts are so much smaller and you don't have to raise as much money and doesn't take as much resources to win election.
And I think just the huge blowback overreaction from the Pentagon just on this one bill that was introduced in West Virginia shows that you can rattle the status quo at the Pentagon and you can threaten the the warfare state at the state level, especially at this type of concept.
This bill was to catch fire in a few other states.
You could really resist the warfare state because one thing you got to remember is sometimes I think we don't have a draft anymore because the National Guard units from the different states are sort of used indirectly as a draft or the reserve forces to maintain the empire.
You know, these these kids that are kind of naive, they're promised free college, you know, one weekend a month, no big deal.
And then all of a sudden, you know, when when the the the horrid wars overseas break out, you know, all of a sudden they're activated, you know, to active duty.
And then they spend one year, two years, three years straight in these wars.
And so, you know, they're used as sort of indirectly used as a sort of de facto kind of draft.
So and it's interesting to note that all the different National Guard units throughout the different states cite their sole reason for existence within the so-called militia clause of the U.S. Constitution, which I believe is Article 1, Section 8, Clause 11.
And there's three enumerated powers where the federal government can use the state guard units and they can't just use them to supplement active duty forces overseas.
So anyway, that's sort of that story in a nutshell.
I kept pushing the bill.
It's gone nowhere so far, but I have hopes for it.
And I'd really like to coordinate with other liberty oriented state legislators around the country to sort of start pushing this idea in multiple states.
Yeah, well, that's the thing.
It sounds like you need a new organization to coordinate with other state legislators and that kind of thing.
And you're right that their overreaction to what you were doing really goes to show they know they have reason to fear what a huge story this could be, even if what if you got this introduced in five states and they still failed?
That's still huge and still sets a huge precedent for next year and the year after that.
And in fact, now that we're 16 years into the terror war, I bet you have a lot more former guardsmen serving in these state houses and state senates who really agree with you.
I mean, you talk about these the wastes that these wars represent, you know a little bit about what you speak there.
Is that right?
Well, yeah, of course.
You know, I'm a graduate of the U.S.
Air Force Academy.
That's in Colorado Springs.
Raised, my father was a career professional military officer, B-52 bomber pilot.
He was actually tragically killed when his bomber went down in 1994.
But I learned a lot of different values and principles from him.
And he's very much a constitutionalist.
And so after the Air Force Academy, they needed, 9-11 hit my junior year at the Academy in Colorado Springs, so they needed intelligence officers.
So I wanted to be a pilot like my old man.
But, you know, they never, they'd always tell you not to volunteer in the military.
But I raised my hand and I wanted to go to pilot training, but I ended up going to intelligence officer school.
And I went there and then met up with a mutual friend we have, James Aragon.
I was a brand new second lieutenant in my first assignment at Headquarters 8th Air Force, which is near Shreveport, Louisiana, at Parkstow Air Force Base.
And James was an NCO at the time.
He had about eight years experience on me and, you know, he served under me.
But he really was a smart one and had so much experience to help me out with.
And we deployed overseas the next year to the Middle East.
And a lot of things happened over there.
And that really started to change my mind on our foreign policy because there were so many innocents that were slaughtered that we had witnessed, of course, via just UAVs and predator feed at the headquarters that we were at, the Air Operations Center.
And it was just despicable.
I remember one significant moment where, you know, in mid-2005, the Taliban sort of had a massive counteroffensive and some foreign fighters and Taliban extremists were going around to different eastern provinces, essentially rounding up youngsters in some of these small villages, sort of kidnapping or conscripting them to join the movement against the American occupation.
And, you know, they really hadn't learned that some of the American tactics yet because the initial invasion and bombing in 2001 and 2002 took care, took a lot of the experienced fighters out.
So when this resurgence, this counteroffensive came, you know, they just were new.
And we had predator feed just up on a big screen in the command headquarters, the Air Operations Center.
And I mean, it was crystal clear.
You could see, you know, a person's face, if they'd shaved or not.
And I remember they'd mobilized 500 or 600 men at a time in some of the plateaus in Afghanistan.
And we would call in AC-130 gunships because they had mobilized these large forces, but they didn't think we could see them at night, and that came with their inexperience.
And we would just, you know, these AC-130s would just tear into them.
At one point, I remember watching on live, real-time video from a predator feed, about 500 to 600 kids just get wiped out with, you know, 105-millimeter...
Five to 600 kids?
Five to 600, quote-unquote, bad guys, insurgents, Taliban bad guys.
In one massacre, you're saying?
Oh, yeah.
Oh, that happened several times.
So what was that?
At a school, or what are you saying?
That many kids were in one place where?
They were mobilizing in plateaus, basically, at night, five, 600 armed guys, but there were a lot of them.
Oh, okay.
So not kids, but...
Well, some of them you could see were maybe 15, 16, 17 years old, you know, carrying an AK-47, but like...
Oh, okay.
I just want to make sure...
Yeah, no, don't get me wrong.
I understand.
I understand.
Right, right, right.
A combatant who's young, but I just want to make sure we're...
Because it sort of sounded like you were saying they just bombed a school and kind of launched...
Combatants that were young, you know, and in the rules of engagement were, if they had a weapon, then they were deemed hostile, but, you know, over there, owning an AK-47 is just pretty much the same cultural equivalent of, you know, someone in my state in West Virginia owning a shotgun in the closet, you know?
And so, you know, I mean, they were just sick of the American occupation.
And so, you know, you call in these AC-130 gunships, they'd wipe them out.
At one point, there was one survivor from this so-called incident that I'm referring to, one of the grossest incidents I witnessed on video, and that was, you know, they'd all basically been wiped out, decimated.
There was one guy, one young kid who survived, and he was running, and he was running.
And you could see, actually, his chest expand because, you know, he was just so out of breath.
He kept running.
He finally made it up on this mountainous side and was resting on the one little tree that was sticking out of this rock.
And there was a colonel standing next to me just drinking a cup of coffee, an Air Force colonel.
And they put a 105-millimeter shell, howitzer shell, right on this kid and blew him to pieces.
You could see his limbs just blown apart, and this Air Force colonel was just laughing.
He was just laughing, well, we got that kid, you know?
And there, I really started to realize, because before, you know, I was sort of a George W.
Bush guy, you know, coming out of the Air Force Academy, wanting to get in the fight.
And then those experiences, when I got deployed overseas, really started changing my views on things.
I mean, you're laughing, and I had some words with that colonel.
And I'm lucky I didn't get, you know, drawn up for insubordination.
And so that was something that just stuck in my mind.
You know, these kids were just, you know, they'd seen their homes destroyed.
And, of course, you know, we call it collateral damage, but, you know, their parents are killed or whatever.
And it just, you know, radicalizes even more and draws more of these individuals that are just, you know, sitting there watching their families get killed.
It draws them into the more radicalized versions of the jihadis, and gives them an easier ability to recruit.
And it was just so immoral, and so it was sort of sickening.
But I can go on and on about some of the experiences, and my buddy James Aragon, who was over there with me, you know, he can give you a lot of stories, too, but just sickening.
So yeah, after I came back, I was kind of doing some soul-searching, and my buddy Jim Aragon, he brought me to Ron Paul and never looked back.
And so I got out of the military and, you know, was fortunate enough to get elected to the state legislature, and that's my third term now.
All right.
Hang on just one second.
I got to do this.
All right, you guys.
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Well, man, yeah, so thank you for telling us a little bit about your time in Iraq there so that people can understand that.
I think, you know, it's the legacy of Vietnam that anti-war means hippies and peacemen and just kind of ignorance is wrapped up in that whole, like, war gun package.
But to have Ron Paul types, to have military officers and really just Republican Party members coming at this policy from the right just proves in itself, just by example, that no, you don't have to be Michael Moore or Jane Fonda or some tie-dye hippie to see through this thing.
Maybe you got to see a kid killed with your own eyes to see through it.
But at some point, the reality is that this is wrong.
And it's wrong.
And so, but here's the thing, though, is I think that you're closer to a real breakthrough quite possibly than you even know if you really could create some kind of movement here with other, especially Republicans, but other state legislatures just to get this kind of thing introduced in more and more places and just get people talking about, well, what is an unconstitutional war anyway?
Well, they did kind of authorize it, but does the AUMF count?
I mean, if people are even talking about this at all, then that's a victory.
And I'm curious about the Pentagon's threat.
Oh, well, no, I'll save that.
Go ahead.
Just to add a quick caveat, I believe some state legislators introduced my bill in Arizona, I believe, according to the Tenth Amendment Center.
And there might have been a couple other states that have already introduced the bill, too.
So I'd like to get with the Tenth Amendment Center, come back around to them and and get some more names and see if we can't have a coordinated push on that one issue to defend the Guard Act, at least in six, seven, eight different states.
And if we could get like larger states like Texas to join us, I mean, that would really go a far way.
And it really cuts to the heart of the constitutional question here, too, when, of course, they're going to say, hey, listen, Supremacy Clause, the national government has the power to nationalize the militia.
But then that's your entire argument is that they're begging the question and that that is, you know, a fact not in evidence and that, you know, maybe your state really does have the right to say under which circumstances or to hold them to the circumstances under which that's true under the federal constitution, whether and if the if the courts decide, oh, well, we'll stay out of it.
That's a political question.
Then that sounds to me like it's back in your court for the legislators and the governors to fight it out.
And so, you know, I don't know.
It's a kind of thing where you're you're picking a really great fight, not just on the topic itself, but also on the background where nationalists of the left and the right are going to try to say, no, no, no, the national government always wins.
But when their constituents, especially on this issue, aren't going to agree with that.
That's correct, you know, and the Supremacy Clause has been widely misinterpreted.
It just means the federal government has supremacy in the enumerated powers.
And there's only three enumerated powers where the federal government can federalize the guard units under the Militia Clause, you know, either to repel an invasion, enforce the laws of the union and put down insurrections.
And, you know, obviously, none of those criteria, those enumerated powers have ever come to fruition when they just federalize the guards and use them as sort of indirectly a draft reserve force.
And, of course, a congressional declaration of war, which we've never seen since 1941.
You know, it's just it's time to get back to.
So not only Liberty guys, but constitutionalists and people that take their oath very seriously on the right.
I think it's definitely something right up their alley and even the left, you know, can join in this fight.
So I'm hopeful, but I'll keep pushing the issue, you know, and hopefully it goes forward.
But, you know, so I'll keep fighting that issue.
And I think it's very important.
Well, you know, I think you're really on to something about the guard being turned into this unofficial draft when I mean, certainly back, you know, when I was that age, it was more like you were saying where, you know, it's one weekend a month, two weeks a year.
You drink beer with your buddies like on The Simpsons.
Right.
They all do.
All the friends join up together and it's all just a bunch of fun and games.
And and maybe if there's a bad flood, you'll all, you know, help with the sandbags and rescuing some people, that kind of thing.
And yet in at this point, I guess I wouldn't be surprised.
I don't know this, but I wouldn't be surprised if, you know, most young people couldn't even tell you the difference between the reserves and the National Guard because they are just used as reserves interchangeably, as you say there.
And under the National Guard from the different states authority, the governor is the commander in chief of their guard units.
I mean, and only with those three enumerated powers can the federal government constitutionally federalize the National Guard units.
So that's just just kind of shirked off now.
So, well, I wonder, I mean, hey, we got some some representatives.
I wonder in what universe we could actually have some governors who'd be willing to fight about this with the national government.
And say, no, I refuse to deploy my guard under your command for this.
That's what the bill says.
The bill says the governor shall not relinquish any of our state's guard units into foreign combat zones without an express declaration of war from the U.S. Congress or if any of the enumerated powers have been met in the militia clause of the U.S. Constitution.
That's it.
That's it.
And it orders the government to do it.
So if you can pass the bill, the governor has no choice.
But we might be able to get some governors, maybe the governor of Texas.
I don't know that gentleman very well.
But if we get some more.
Yeah, I know.
But if we get some some power hitters there, you know, maybe we might be able to do it.
Well, yeah.
I mean, that's the whole thing.
If it's the consensus, we really make a parade out of the thing.
Then they'll have to race to get ahead of it.
And yeah, and if you deny if you deny the war machine, the guard, if you deny them the guard, there is not enough manpower to maintain the current empire.
It's just not.
So so I hope it comes to fruition.
You know, I speaking of the Vietnam War and I know you said, you know, anybody that thinks the anti-war movement is just a bunch of lefty hippies.
This is not the case, especially if you read Murray Rothbard's lesser known work, The Betrayal of the American Right, which is a great is a great work.
He goes into detail how the right was betrayed by men like Bill Buckley and others.
And, you know, Taft's nomination to the Republican presidential nominee as a nominee to the Republican presidential convention was stolen by New Englanders and given over to Eisenhower.
You know, I mean, it's it's very interesting and it's a great piece there.
But, you know, I speaking of my book, you know, Stoicism in the Statehouse, in the preface, I go into a story and I happen to meet a man named James Stockdale, Jim Stockdale.
By the time I met him my first year at the U.S.
Air Force Academy, he was a retired three star general.
He won the Medal of Honor, highly decorated naval officer, a man my father, who was also a career military officer himself, greatly respected Stockdale.
So having to meet Jim Stockdale my first year at the Air Force Academy, my freshman year where you get hazed and everything.
And actually, I got Jim Stockdale's autograph, but Admiral Stockdale, who was shot down over North Vietnam during that war, was held in captivity for nearly eight years at the infamous Hanoi Hilton.
He was brutally tortured perhaps 30 different times, held in solitary confinement for four years, two of those years in solitary confinement.
He spent leg irons, you know, but he later credited the stoic philosophy with surviving his brutal experience, namely the teachings of Epictetus.
But an interesting side note, Stockdale was also the only American directly involved in all three of the notorious Gulf of Tonkin incidents as a fighter pilot, a naval fighter pilot flying overhead, especially in the most outrageous incident in the waters of the Tonkin Gulf on the night of August 4th, 1964.
So after Jim Stockdale was released from the infamous Hanoi Hilton, from his prison cell in Vietnam, Stockdale spoke out against those incidents as a sham, where he knew many men in his fighter squadron had went along with the federal government's narrative that these non-existent Vietnamese torpedo boats had fired on a pair of U.S. naval destroyers.
And Jim Stockdale attested that it was all a lie.
So he was a man of virtue, a man of the highest character.
And, you know, that's all in my book, by the way, but, you know, we need men of honor in the armed forces that can speak out and resist some of these unconstitutional wars and push back against the Warhawks and the Pentagon.
And so, you know, we just really need to get the message out that, you know, unprovoked initiation of war overseas is not a conservative idea.
It's not a good idea in general.
And I don't believe any, hardly any of the wars that the United States has fought, certainly in the 20th century and going back to the 19th century even, have ever met the so-called just war criteria that was, I think, first founded by St.
Thomas Aquinas back in the 13th century.
So as a Catholic, he's my favorite saint, by the way, so.
Well, listen, so to go back to the more mundane here, I'm interested in, again, well, I wanted to highlight again, as you said, that the I think the head of the state guard that came to lecture you, he himself, of course, is familiar with a bunch of dead kids from these wars.
And so he was getting teared up because this is all very real to him, too.
And yet, hey, orders are orders and business is business.
He's there to read you the riot act and all that.
But it doesn't sound like he's that far out of your reach.
And but then so he was there to convey, do I understand you right, what the actual Pentagon had called and told him, which was they would close down every National Guard base in West Virginia.
Do I hear that right then, that all those are already federal bases and they've been federal bases this whole time?
And so West Virginia wouldn't have a guard at all if the Pentagon took it away?
Correct.
You know, they're officially under state control.
Of course, the federal government has a great deal of sway over them unless the governor asserts some of his sovereign powers, because the governor is the commander in chief of all National Guard units in his state, unless they're federalized.
Yes, those threats were made, according to the Adjutant General of the West Virginia Guard.
And he claimed the chief of staff of the U.S.
Army called him from the Pentagon and threatened him.
Now, whether that threat was a bluff to scare him to, you know, make sure that bill was removed from the agenda, I'm not sure, but it definitely rattled him.
It definitely rattled the Pentagon.
So ideas matter.
And I think they are afraid of these certain ideas because if they catch fire, you know, there'll be a lot of pushback to the war machine.
So, yeah, so and, you know, of course, I just said, well, you know, General, if you agree with the bill, you should be supporting it, not sitting here worried about, you know, what the Pentagon's going to do.
So anyway.
Yeah, well, you're going to have to work on him and a lot of the rest of them, too.
But I think you picked the very best fight to get into here.
And and really just, you know, because of the position that you're in in the state government there, it's not just the best fight to pick, but the best place to pick it from, I think, and the best example that you can set for other people in similar positions across the country where, you know, it's also that just I think state representatives are more dependent if there's some ratio out there or something, they're more dependent on the actual will of their constituents than a national representative is or certainly a senator where they're much more dependent on money and power and favor in Washington or as a state representative.
He really could get thrown out by the neighborhood if they didn't like him or vice versa.
You know, he could be by them in a real grassroots kind of way that's unstoppable from above.
Sure, sure.
Seems like you guys, you know, could really could do this as part of what's left of federalism and the separation of powers in this country.
I think it's enough that you can make a real good stand here.
Obviously, you already are.
So good luck to you.
And you know what I think, Bolden and Meharry, you got to work with those guys to create a network with the other state representatives in the other 50 states, other 49 states that you can work with to do this, because those guys are the best.
And obviously y'all are coming from the exact same story around there, too.
Sure, definitely.
Yeah, I've gotten to know a couple good guys from the 10th Amendment Center, and they actually just wrote up a very great, very humbling review on my latest book here, Stoicism in the Statehouse.
That's on.
I didn't see that.
So anyway, yeah, OK, good.
So that's all at 10th Amendment Center dot com, you guys, including this one, Rattling the Pentagon's Cage, Defend the Guard Legislation Threatens the Unconstitutional Status Quo.
So a lot of this, you know, goes is in my book, along with a lot of other things.
So if anybody out there is interested in living a more virtuous life and applying the Stoic philosophy, not just to the state legislature, but to their own life, they'd be very much interested in this book.
And it also has a great biography I wrote up on Cato the Younger, who was history's most famous foe of authoritarian power and went to his death over it during the civil wars that broke out under Julius Caesar.
So so, you know, you can learn a lot more about the issue we just talked about and a lot of other issues in the book.
It's on Amazon and and it was ranked number 19 on Amazon recently here in its category.
So anyway, I was going to mention, I swear to God, Stoicism in the Statehouse, you guys on Amazon.
All right.
Well, thanks very much, Matt.
I really appreciate it.
Hey, thanks a lot, Scott.
God bless.
I appreciate it.
Buddy.
All right, you guys.
That is Pat McGeehan.
He is in the I should say it right.
He is in the House of Delegates.
That's the lower house there in West Virginia.
And again, check out this great article at the Tenth Amendment Center.
Tenth Amendment Center dot com.
Rattling the Pentagon's cage.
Defend the guard legislation threatens the unconstitutional status quo and the book against Stoicism and the Statehouse.
All right.
I'm Scott Horton.
Check out all my interviews.
Forty five hundred of them and something at Scott Horton dot org.
Check out my institute at Libertarian Institute dot org.
Me and Sheldon Richman and Jerry Labelle over there.
And follow me on Twitter at Scott Horton Show.
Thanks, you guys.
