Jim Bovard exposes the false claim that Bill Clinton presided over a peaceful administration, pointing out the horrible atrocities of the “humanitarian” intervention in Kosovo. Clinton launched this intervention, says Bovard, as a distraction from his personal scandals, under the dubious guise of saving the ethnic minority Albanians from genocide at the hands of the Serbians. Of course, as with many of America’s wars, this one turned out to be based on lies; ultimately hundreds, if not thousands, of civilians were killed because of U.S. intervention. Scott and Bovard also discuss the U.S. military’s war crimes during the Korean War.
Discussed on the show:
- “Kosovo Indictment Proves Bill Clinton’s Serbian War Atrocities” (The Libertarian Institute)
- Hillary’s Choice
- “The Korean War Atrocities No One Wants to Talk About” (The American Conservative)
- Pentagon Papers
Jim Bovard is a columnist for USA Today and the author of Public Policy Hooligan: Rollicking and Wrangling from Helltown to Washington. Find all of his books and read his work on his website and follow him on Twitter @JimBovard.
This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; Listen and Think Audio; TheBumperSticker.com; and LibertyStickers.com.
The following is an automatically generated transcript.
All right, Joe. Welcome to the Scott Horton show. I am the director of the libertarian Institute editorial director of anti war.com, author of the book fool’s errand, time to end the war in Afghanistan. And I’ve recorded more than 5000 interviews going back to 2003, all of which are available at scotthorton.org dot org. You can also sign up to the podcast feed full archive is also email@example.com. Slash Scott Horton Show. Hey guys on the line, I’ve got Jim Beauvoir. He wrote most of the books that are out including public policy hooligan, which I know you’ll love, and he’s been writing for us at the libertarian Institute. Thank goodness. This one is called Kosovo indictment proves Bill Clinton 10s Serbian war atrocities. That is at libertarian. institute.org Welcome back to the show. How you doing, Jim?
Jim Bovard 1:09
Hey, doing good. Scott, thanks for your kind words. Thanks for your encouragement to write that story. I’m glad
Scott Horton 1:14
you did. But I’m so confused because, geez, I seem to remember the Bill Clinton years being peace time, Jim. No.
Jim Bovard 1:24
Well, that’s true. I mean, that’s the fairy tale. I mean, it’s it’s sort of like the fairy tale that there was not any corruption scandals under the during the Obama administration. And the George W. Bush was more honest than he seemed at the time.
Scott Horton 1:39
Oh, yeah. He kept us safe. That said, you know, that one big thing?
Jim Bovard 1:45
Well, if you’re in the military, or if you’re Iraq or Afghan D or about 25 other nationalities, right? ethnic groups.
Scott Horton 1:56
Right on Okay, so I do remember 1999 Actually, I was just pretending. And so what happened was, is he was impeached but not removed. And then he celebrated by starting the war. Pretty much. Oh, and in fact, I guess we know right from Gail, she’s book that Hillary essentially wouldn’t talk to him unless he would bomb Serbia. And that was how they put their marriage back together after the Lewinsky scandal was based on spilling this blood. And so yeah, fancy that. Who? Who would have guessed that? Hmm. But anyway, well, so but it was all for good cause to say the people are what?
Jim Bovard 2:37
Well, the clinton folks said there was genocide going on the Serbs were guilty of genocide. The Clinton folks compared this Serbian leader to Hitler, and almost all the American media went along like, you know, train dogs and just follow the administration line and they tend to ignore the Carnage when the US and NATO allies blew up hospitals, trains marketplaces. And they didn’t really care when the US scattered cluster bombs all over the landscape, cluster bombs that would be going off for many years afterwards and maiming young children and
Scott Horton 3:19
Jim Bovard 3:21
There. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there was so many, so many things that should have outraged Americans at the time. But they, but the most of the American media that bill clinton get away with this storyline of him as a great Savior, and the Serbs as a great demon. I mean, it’s surprising that the, the so many American policymakers had not learned the folly of getting into a quarrel about European borders, which was kind of what this was. But they weren’t deliberate. Well, you know, I hope we find out more details of what Clint knew and At the time, but what we already know is that the Clinton administration had previously condemned the Costco Liberation Army as a bunch of terrorists. That was accurate. But 1999 basically, as part of the PR scam, the KLA was, you know, magically turned into freedom fighters, and they were portrayed as heroes by the clinton ministration. And by much of the bootlicking American media.
Scott Horton 4:27
Yeah. And so, this war, I guess I could have clarified the beginning introducing the subject matter that the war was essentially to break off this province of Serbia, Kosovo to be an independent. somedays. Sort of pseudo state there, right.
Jim Bovard 4:43
Yeah, that was the that was the goal. I mean, it wasn’t I mean, what the clinton folks would usually say, Well, we’ve got to stop the ethnic cleansing and they, they were saying 100,000 people might have been killed or missing hundreds, thousands or hundreds of thousands of their eyes. kind of embarrassing after the war ended, there were not, not the mass graves that the clinton folks had implied would be found. And you had a lot of dead Serbs. You had some dead ethnic Albanians. But you didn’t really have the carnage that the clinton folks used to justify bombing dog raid, which is, you know, it’s a European city. It’s a foreign capital, and it had done No, no harm to us, Bill Clinton felt morally obliged to, you know, blow the hell out of that city and the entire country of Serbia.
Scott Horton 5:33
Yeah. And, you know, it’s such an obvious bunch of crap at the time to 100,000 people have been killed when there’s no real reason to believe that other than, you know, the US and NATO’s claims at the time. And then, but the point being, though, that that was the weapons of mass destruction here, right, if Bill Clinton had not said 100,000, but it said, Well, you know, some fighters are being killed in the fighting, then that would not have been a pretext. For war 100,000 was, you know the magic number, right? Like when your odometer rolls over to 100,000? And you’re like, yeah, it’s a that’s a big round number man to go a bunch of dead civilians. And then it turned out that that wasn’t true at all that it was a few thousand almost all fighting age males whose bodies were found in Aftermath there.
Jim Bovard 6:21
Well, yeah, I mean 100,000 makes a nice headline. But there have been so many times where the US government was, you know, use similar storylines to justify Carnage, Carnage, launch and Carnage abroad. But I was fascinated at the time of the war to see you know, you know, day after day there was a video of the US bombing the Chinese Embassy there is the the intentional bombing of the radio television headquarters of Serbia. There is bombing these bridges, there’s bombing of this, and it’s, you know, having fun having read a lot about World War Two history and the history of some of the subsequent wars is like, Well, you know, we’re killing a lot of innocent people. But it did not seem as if that registered with much of the American media. I, you know, I was I tried to sell some articles criticizing the war at the time as like, you know, Irish need not apply. There was just almost no collards for criticism as far as from the editors who I dealt with.
Scott Horton 7:29
Yeah, another big part of it at the time, two boys were just gonna bomb for the weekend. It’d be easy, and they’ll do what we say after that.
Jim Bovard 7:38
And then it turned out to be 78 days and wrecked much of the country and, you know, it was kind of embarrassing. They also went and blew the hell out of at least one refugee column of ethnic Albanians. And there was systemic lying by the Pentagon about the atrocities which were unleashed by the bombing, communist same thing that happens after Every war but there was there was a level of media gullibility is a phrase that came to mind but it’s not. That’s the you know, we need a much harsher phrase. Because it was as if the the most of the American media turned off their bowls, radars. As soon as a bomb started to drop.
Scott Horton 8:24
Yeah. Hey, as long as it’s not another sex scandal good enough for us. They cried. You know, and Meanwhile, the lady from CNN married the guy from the State Department right in the middle of the thing.
Jim Bovard 8:37
Well, that that probably explains something so you know what? No. But
Scott Horton 8:45
you know what they agreed before they got married. They agreed about the board. Oh, yeah. I think the car came after the horse for sure there. But what a confluence though. Hmm.
Jim Bovard 8:57
Well, I mean, there are so many different levels of You know, in which the US media utterly failed in this war, as did the clinton ministration. And, you know, as usual, when the truth came out long after the bombing, it stopped. I probably got 2% as much coverage as the lies that got that were promulgated during the war. So that’s part of the reason Americans are a lot of Americans are so gullible when the politicians trying to drag us into another war,
Scott Horton 9:28
right. Yeah, we always find out the horrible truth. It’s out there on every single one of them, but we just find out later, that’s the problem.
Jim Bovard 9:36
Well, most people find out later, but I mean, if folks are watching I mean, I, if memory serves, there was much better coverage of the Serbian war and the US bombing campaign of NATO, US bombing campaign of Serbia better coverage in the European press than the American press. But that’s not surprising.
Scott Horton 9:55
Yep. In fact, there’s a story there about antiwar.com where they had sources They’re who were going living through the war. And we’re running original stories at that time. And that was their first, you know, big thing. I remember driving down the road listening to talk radio, and hearing some war propaganda. And then the caller says, That’s not true, man. It’s on anti war.com right now that Oh, that’s great story is this or that? That was I had seen them once before in in 98. Or maybe earlier in 99. I had seen the site and I’d seen that they were libertarians. And then I remember hearing about them on the radio then and thinking all right, man,
Jim Bovard 10:35
I should let him a little Did you? Yeah. A little Did you know that? That the anti war would become your life mission?
Scott Horton 10:43
Yeah, seriously? Hey, it’s a great website. You know, what am I going to do build my own website and just write these guys, coattails. They’re doing a good job.
Jim Bovard 10:52
All right. Yeah. And it was such a good website. 20 years later, they still have it.
Scott Horton 10:58
Yeah. And it’s still good. Just before you interviewed Dave decamp and Jason did from news.antiwar.com because I had all
Jim Bovard 11:06
that good that’s good. Well okay, I will I will I will not make any rude comments about the website
Scott Horton 11:12
yeah you better not okay it’s been since about the start of Iraq war two that we had a redesign if that’s really gonna say for the front page anyway, yeah, no game. It’s still important website on the internet though. No question about it to me.
Jim Bovard 11:28
Um, yeah, I wasn’t aware the website was that new?
Scott Horton 11:33
Yeah, got me. Oh,
hey, I’ll check it out. The libertarian Institute. That’s me and my friends have published three great books this year. First is no quarter, the ravings of William Norman Greg. He was the best one of us. Now he’s gone. But this great collection is a truly fitting legacy for his fight for freedom. I know you’ll love it. And there’s coming to Palestine by the great Sheldon Richmond. It’s a collection of 48 Important essays he’s written over the years about the truth behind the Israel Palestine conflict. You’ll learn so much and highly valued this definitive libertarian take on the dispossession of the Palestinians and the reality of their brutal occupation. And last but not least, is the great Ron Paul, the Scott Horton show, interviews 2004 through 2019 interview transcripts of all of my interviews of the good doctor over the years, on all the wars, money taxes, the police state and more. So how do you like that? Pretty good, right? Find them all at libertarian institute.org slash books. Hey, you guys may know I’m involved in some libertarian party politics this year, but you can’t hear or read about that at the libertarian Institute due to 501 c three rules and such. So make sure to sign up for the interviews feed at Scott horton.org and keep an eye on my blog at Scott Horton. org slash stress. Hey, y’all Scott here, if you want to real education History and economics he should check out Tom Woods is Liberty classroom. Tom and a really great group of professors and experts have put together an entire education of everything they didn’t teach you in school but should have follow through from the link in the margin at Scott Horton. org for Tom Woods is Liberty classroom. Hey, Louis, let’s talk about this indictment. That proves Bill Clinton’s Serbian war atrocities. You started to bring that up and then I changed the subject to something else or something. But you were talking about the KLA these been last night at least tide gangster terrorists that America fought that war for and but what’s this indictment and who’s indicted and what’s it matter and proven What?
Jim Bovard 13:46
Okay, well, this is where I’ll tap your expertise on pronunciation.
Scott Horton 13:54
I’ve only ever read it quietly to myself. So I don’t know.
Jim Bovard 13:58
Well I’ve never pretended to be fluent in Albanian but So anyhow, casado, President hushing that Sachi was charged with 10 counts of war crimes and crimes against humanity by an international tribunal in The Hague. He was charged with murder and forced disappearance of persons persecution torture. He and the other folks charged are accused of being criminally responsible for nearly 100 murders. And prior to this, the the the bosses of the KLA have been linked to body trafficking, where they would kidnap people often serves that this is the allegation and then murder them and then sell their body parts, which is kind of bad even for a you know, terrorist group. So but so it’s not surprising this guy was indicted because the US government the State Department was saying similar things about the cat KLA 22 years ago, prior to them becoming sainted freedom fighters, but it’s it’s interesting to see how this guy’s career is gone. Now, there’s a lot of, you know, a lot of corruption in Costco. It’s one of the more corrupt nations in the world according to Transparency International. The political situation there is not good. But but they have a statue of Bill Clinton right in the in the capital city, and I think there’s a bill clinton Boulevard. I’m not sure if there’s a Monica Monica Lewinsky back alley, but you know, we’ll let that go. But, and Bill Clinton was there last year for the 10th anniversary of the I guess the statue being unveiled. He had Madeleine Albright as Secretary of State were treated like rock stars when they pose with this guy that just got indicted that tea and Clinton declares I love this country and it will be always wanted The greatest honors of my life Dave stood with you against ethnic cleansing and for freedom. And so, so thoughts he gave Clinton and Albright The, the local version of metals of freedom. And it’s like, Well, okay, so they got the same bullet there, which which we got here as far as Presidential Medal of Freedom. But Albright is interesting because she was one of the most fanatic people in favor of bombing Belgrade. Very, you know, in favor of bombing Serbia. She’s, she’s more recently reinvented herself as a visionary warning against the dangers of fascism, but I would think that launching a bombing campaign that kills a lot of innocent civilians. Yeah, maybe it’s not fastest, but it’s also you know, you know, as part of her permanent record, but but the American media, again treats her like she’s a visionary when she should be known as being the butcher of Belgrade.
Scott Horton 16:59
Absolutely. You know that rumble yay accord, which was this was a peace deal. Well, go ahead tell him. No, no, I can tell I triggered you there, Jim.
Jim Bovard 17:09
Ah, yeah, I think you’re a little more fluid on the details. Base. Our call was a crock. And it was, you know, it was a bolster ultimatum to the Serbs, that the I think even Kissinger said it was obvious that they would never accepted. But the whole point was given a pretext for to start bombing. Now. It’s it might be in that sense, similar to the Australian demands to Serbia in 1914, after the assassination of the Archduke.
Scott Horton 17:39
Yeah. And which, by the way, you know, she could have really tried to negotiate there. It was such an obvious fake pretext. I mean, the the one thing that was the deal killer was that they had to agree to allow NATO troops to occupy the entire country of Serbia. Apparently like up to and including the presidential palace or whatever. You know, all of it. Yeah.
Jim Bovard 18:01
And I come on. Yeah, it was a completely bullshit demand. That was that was mostly ignored by the American press. I mean, I think there were some very good European British, maybe john pillager, as well wrote about that at the time, but for the American press as well, the Serbs are unreasonable. We made them an offer. And it’s kind of like, Well, yeah, it’s like having an offer by the local police. Well, okay. We don’t have a search warrant. But we’re going to occupy your house for the next five years. Yep. Yeah, I don’t think so.
Scott Horton 18:33
Yeah. And you make the point here, too, about how this really helped to set up sort of the background of the argument for rack war two that, hey, if the democrats can have a war to save the people in Serbia, of course, the Republicans can have a war to save the people of Iraq. And of course, if we can’t get a UN resolution to authorize it, we’ll just do it anyway.
Jim Bovard 18:53
Yeah, and I mean, it was a Clinton’s war in Serbia. It’s, it’s a Pandora’s box. And there’s evil still coming out of that it’s set a precedent for humanitarian intervention, military humanitarian intervention, to stop ethnic cleansing genocide. That was how it was sold. And the fact there turned out to be complete both was irrelevant because the politicians, the media manage to sell it. So it was a similar arguments that bush used for the US has to bring democracy to Iraq. summer when Obama used to justify bombing Libya, and Trump Trump’s people probably said similar things on Syria, but they’ve talked so much contradictory bs it’s hard to keep track. Yeah.
Scott Horton 19:44
All right. Now listen, man, I want to talk about this thing that you wrote for the American Conservative to about the Korean War. And there you go. They say it’s the Forgotten War. But you know, don’t forget Afghanistan. That’s another Forgotten War. Don’t forget, you know, Somalia. We forget that when every day, but this one boy it’s really important what happened there and there’s so many things about the world right now that trace themselves back to the crisis back then. And you got into the real, you know, nitty gritty of just who’s the good guys and the bad guys when America intervenes over in these countries to save the people, again, the same kind of narrative like we’re talking about in Serbia, Iraq, Libya, that we’re America is Superman and the Christopher Reeve you know, Richard Donner Superman just trying his best to liberate France from the Nazis just like always, and but it doesn’t always and in fact, the French got bombed the hell out of two during that people don’t know about that but talk about the Korean War for the people because most of them don’t know thing about it.
Jim Bovard 20:58
Well, the the point of my opinion was the biggest lesson of the Korean one of the biggest lessons of the Korean War was to never trust the Pentagon on atrocities. There was there were a lot of atrocities by US forces, certainly a lot of atrocities by communists as well. But the thing about a lot of the American atrocities was that they were mandated by the top level, the military command and the State Department. They were ordered to shoot civilian refugees who were coming close to American lines. There was a case in July 1950, in which the US playing submachine guns scraped a bunch of Korean refugees for three days. Hundreds of people, mostly women and children were killed. There was a This was you know, this vanished for 49 years until the Associated Press brought it out and talked about and expose the mask read the bridge of no gun rye which is might or might not be pronouncing right. So the AP story sparked a big investigation a year and a half later at the end of the Clinton administration, Pentagon issues a 300 page report proving that the massacre was it was an unfortunate tragedy, simply caused by Trigger Happy soldiers. And President Clinton commented that, you know, that he did that he didn’t have to offer an apology. Because, you know, the because the people who looked at it in the Pentagon had said it was not a deliberate act. It wasn’t decided the high enough level in the hierarchy to acknowledge that the US government had participated in something terrible
Scott Horton 22:42
it’s just the National Guard on the night shift man some bad apples, you know how it goes.
Jim Bovard 22:46
Yeah, but and so I mean, what intrigued me on this was an okay, so you had a pentagon claim you do a thorough investigation. 300 pages. Four years later, you’ve got a Harvard University doctoral student History. Sar Conway Lance. He found a letter in the archives, showing that the US ambassador to Korea had sent to the Assistant Secretary of State, Dean Rusk on the on the day that massacre started saying that it would be US policy if you see the refugees from the north, you know, fire a warning shot and then shoot them. In those those rules of engagement were sent to the US troops prior to the massacre. Same guy Conway Lance comes back the following year, finds a lot more stuff and shows that the you know, inferences are inefficient artificial army history said it was decided to shoot anyone who moved at night. So it doesn’t say except for women and children. No they were moving. There was a US aircraft carrier justified attacking civilians because the army said that groups of more than eight to 10 people should be considered troops and work To be attacked. Okay, so army does another investigation Two years later, there was no policy author authorizing troops to shoot refugees never never gave such orders. Associated Press goes back finds more dirt. My name is Charles Handley that did some great work on this and finds a lot more evidence that the US government had mandated this. And there were a former Air Force pilots who said that they were told to stray through refugees, time and again, the South Koreans launch their own truth and reconciliation reconciliation commission and find a lot of other horrendous atrocities by the US and allies as well as by communists. But it was obvious from the get go that there had been that the US rules of engagement were horrendous. General Curtis, Curtis LeMay said that we burned down every town in North Korea and summit, South Korea. 2 million civilians could have been killed in that war. And yet what the Pentagon did was bottled up so that the truth was found out by historians and not by the policymakers. The facts about these massacres finally came out 10 presidencies later. And, you know, people something I hear as a journalist all the time. Well, truth will out. I said, Yeah, well, you know, I’m holding my breath on this 110 presidencies later. And it was tragic, because you had rules of engagement that were horrendous for Korea. And because they were covered up, you have the same rules in Afghanistan as a rules in Vietnam, and the same rules in Iraq, and to a lesser degree in Afghanistan. And you had vast numbers of civilian casualties, most of which the government swept under the rug.
Scott Horton 25:53
Yeah. Now, that’s a really important point that hey, if they had been forced Somehow, I don’t know by Congress or something.
Jim Bovard 26:01
Scott Horton 26:02
to tell the truth about this then
Jim Bovard 26:05
I was I was too soon. They’re having some good people on congress who pushed on this, but most of the time they have ducked and run. I mean, I think the experience with Ellsberg, Ellsberg was begging senators to take those Pentagon paid right and public whether everyone was a coward except for Mike gravel,
Scott Horton 26:23
right. Yeah, it’s certainly true. But anyway, just in the pretend of vertical there that it might have made a difference in Vietnam. If before Vietnam, there had really been a big scandal about the atrocities in Korea instead of a bunch of PR nonsense about how heroic and innocent it all was.
Jim Bovard 26:44
Yeah, and there’s a second wrinkle on this and that is that the you know, that the Pentagon, you know, once this controversy flared up in 1999. What they did is take their frontline soldiers the the, the, the, the right For many others, they threw them under the bus because yeah, it was their fault. It wasn’t it was the fault of the military high command. And this is, you know, that’s unsavory.
Scott Horton 27:12
Yeah. Well, and then there was another one where it was just one earthquake and a mudslide or something revealed this giant mass grave a few years ago.
Jim Bovard 27:21
Oh, interesting. And this is in Korea.
Scott Horton 27:23
Yeah, in South Korea. Okay. And I think it was all just falsely accused. Look, they’re all reds kill them. In fact, I want to go back to this thing about the airstrikes since I’m springing that one on you. People can look that up. The bodies were revealed in the mud and it became a big scandal. But now they were citing as you say, in your article here, they were saying, well, geez, we’re afraid that infiltrators might be coming across if they’re North Korean refugees, who would make sense that they would, you know, infiltrate a communist agent in there. So I don’t know how likely that was or what damage they thought those people could do. Or If the South Korean government had just said that they had no ability whatsoever to separate, who was who or what? The actual circumstances, but then they decided that based on that, just kill them all. There’s a giant group of refugees coming across from the north. Which for all, you know, that it’s the North Korean right wing that’s fleeing the communist tear who wants to all be South Koreans now or if I’m just waking it up, right.
Jim Bovard 28:28
yeah, yeah, Scott. And there’s a second rake on this because the military guidelines were for people who were north of the front line and their front lines and Korea shifted all over the place. So it was likely it’s at some times, a lot of those rough refugees would have been South Korean. So because who were fleeing the communist Yeah. So, but it didn’t matter. It didn’t matter because they were, you know, you’d ask about the bombing campaign. It was fascinating how the US military kept expanding its definition of military target. And it eventually became any structure that could shelter enemy troops or supplies. And they would both I mean, it was it was kind of like back in Vietnam, you had body counts that were mostly BS. But during the career war, you had Air Force press releases that bragged about the square footage of enemy held buildings. And me held buildings. Does that include the peasants?
Scott Horton 29:31
Yep. Yeah, no, I mean, there’s a quote from I think, MacArthur I don’t know who but it’s a prominent one of the people who was certainly in a position over there who talked about we didn’t leave one brick stacked on top of another. Well, they had just burnt they napalm the whole damn country to the ground there.
Jim Bovard 29:50
Well, it was a very aggressive lot of innocent people were killed and that’s you know, it’s it’s a it’s an active legacy in North Korea. I mean, they’ve got a horrible government. But I mean, there’s a reason they still hate us. So
Scott Horton 30:07
yeah. Well, you know, I’m glad you brought that up because it seems like you know, I’m not for government doing things or anything, but it seems like they could really make peace with North Korea right now, based on a big apology for Harry Truman. And what happened back then, and that man if it was us, we wouldn’t kill though y’all like that as terrible man, you know, Harry Truman is burning in hell for sure. In a, probably a giant vat of napalm, but still, we can get along now. And since America is the 6 trillion ton gorilla and all of that stuff, that we could just drop all the sanctions and open up trade and just be nice and sign a peace treaty formalizing an end to that old war and just really push the know hard feelings line as hard as we could and have a perfectly normal relationship with North Korea. After all this time, it wouldn’t really cost us anything at all.
Jim Bovard 31:08
I don’t know. Maybe that would help. Maybe it would work. I don’t know. I’m, I don’t know, the North Korean government that well, they seem like they’re batshit crazy pretty often, but it’s unfortunate one of the changes over the last 32 years is that American leaders have become too proud to apologize for American atrocities. And the example that comes to mind is the 1988 when the US a US I guess, aircraft carrier, whatever destroyer shot down an Iranian passenger jet and killed what like 300 civilians, it was a mistaken identity. And I think memory serves President Reagan said, basically, you know, it wasn’t groveling, but I think he did signal you know, some type of apology say was sorry, whereas doing George HW Bush basically said, Well, I’ll never apologize for anything the US government does. That’s not his exact phrase. But that was just so bad. He was running for president.
Scott Horton 32:10
Yeah. You know, he said, I don’t care what the facts are.
Jim Bovard 32:14
There you go. Yeah. Yeah. So whereas Ronald Reagan had the class, if my memory is correct on the US to at least make some statement. So, but no, I mean, that’s, that’s going back. I can’t recall. Similar things like that from the time. I mean, there was a president obama did a tour and made apologies for things that happened long before he was born. But that’s not the same
Scott Horton 32:44
Yeah Well, it seems like they have so much to gain and we have so much to offer that. And, you know, if I was president, I’d be like, let me tell you about Harry Truman. All right, and then spit on the ground and it’d be clear that I hate him as much as they do. And, and we all should and it’s fine. And I think that would be a great first step toward establishing trust, you know? Well, Scott with that attitude towards premium afraid you’ll never be on the PBS NewsHour. You know, I, I’m pretty much betting that that’s not the case. In fact, I’ll go ahead and tell you a funny thing. The young Americans for liberty, we’re trying to get john bolton to debate me on this PR people were really working on it for a long time, but then they only told him kind of later in the process who it was that he was supposed to go up against. And they answered back that yet no, he is not going to be debating Scott Horton from antiwar.com. So Isn’t that great?
Jim Bovard 33:42
Find a way to use that for your fundraising seriously.
Scott Horton 33:46
Yeah, I might Could I don’t know man, because on one hand, I know I could spin it like Haha, he’s afraid of me or something. But the reality is that he’s hot right now and why would he debate me You know, that’s really Really the answer why he wouldn’t do it.
Jim Bovard 34:02
So it doesn’t matter. I’d spin it. So I guess I might I mean, it’s funny. It’s funny
Scott Horton 34:08
Yeah. You know, Bill Kristol agreed to do it, but and they were trying to get him to come to Austin and sort of combine the whale thing with the Jean Epstein debate in New York. But crystal didn’t want to come to Austin. So I think we’re still on to debate someday in New York, but I don’t know when that might be.
Jim Bovard 34:27
Well, I hope you I think you’re fine with him.
Scott Horton 34:31
And he’s the same difference as john bolton mostly so that’d be fine.
Jim Bovard 34:41
I think he’s a little more polished. And john bolton has a record that you can nail on so that’s that’s a huge difference.
Scott Horton 34:43
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Bill Kristol is he was dan quayle speechwriter, but other than that, it wasn’t exactly his fault. Just a lot.
Jim Bovard 34:55
Dan quills brain.
Scott Horton 34:57
Yeah, man. Wouldn’t that be a great title to carry on? with you.
Jim Bovard 35:01
Scott Horton 35:03
Yeah, man, that and a few other things. All right. Well, listen, I’m glad you wrote about this in the American Conservative. I hope people go and read it because it’s, you really do make a lot of great points in here about that war and this specific war crime and the broader context and all this stuff. I do hope people will check that out. It’s at the American Conservative calm. The Korean War atrocities, no one wants to talk about. And then of course also at the libertarian Institute, Kosovo indictment proves Bill Clinton’s Serbian war atrocities. Thank you for that, Jim, and thank you for your time on the show again, my friend.
Jim Bovard 35:42
Hey, thanks so much,
Scott Horton 35:44
Scott. The Scott Horton show anti war radio can be heard on kpfk 90.7 FM in LA, APSradio.com antiwar.com Scotthorton.org and libertarianinstitute.org