Sorry, I'm late.
I had to stop by the Wax Museum again and give the finger to FDR.
We know Al-Qaeda, Zawahiri, is supporting the opposition in Syria.
Are we supporting Al-Qaeda in Syria?
It's a proud day for America.
And by God, we've kicked Vietnam syndrome once and for all.
Thank you very, very much.
I say it, I say it again, you've been had.
You've been took.
You've been hoodwinked.
These witnesses are trying to simply deny things that just about everybody else accepts as fact.
He came, he saw, he died.
We ain't killing their army, but we killing them.
We be on CNN like, say our name, been saying, say it three times.
The meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world.
Then there's going to be an invasion.
All right, you guys, introducing Eric Margulies.
He wrote War at the Top of the World and American Raj, Liberation or Domination.
And yeah, he's covered more than 10 wars, more than a dozen, 14, something like that.
Fourteen.
Fourteen, yeah.
Been all around the world and written about even more than that.
And, well, War at the Top of the World, of course, is all about Afghanistan and China and Tibet and Bhutan.
All these countries, India and the Himalayas and all of this stuff.
And then, of course, the American Raj is all about the Middle East and all the rest, including Afghanistan and all of that.
And really great stuff.
Best books.
You've got to read them.
They're really that good.
And then also ericmargulies.com.
That's where he keeps all the things that he writes here, including this one that I really like, Dr. Khalil's Ark of Mercy.
If it's OK, I'd like to start with that one about you and some friends.
You did this before in Damascus in the middle of the Civil War, right?
Now here you are in the Gaza Strip rescuing animals from the zoo.
Eric Margulies, welcome back to the show.
How are you doing?
Thank you, Scott.
It's always enjoyable to be back with you.
This is a project that's rescuing animals in peril and distress.
It's very close to my heart.
I do it a lot.
My wife and I just rescued 200 abused animals from some hellhole in Quebec, of all places, including little lemur monkeys from Madagascar whose fingers had been frozen off by frostbite.
Anyway, we got them all out.
Now I'm dealing with feeding bills, but that's the price you pay.
We rescued an entire zoo of animals from the Gaza Strip, another hellhole, tigers, little baby tigers and all kinds of animals.
And then two years ago we went and rescued this private zoo out of Aleppo, Syria.
Oh, that's right.
I said Damascus, but that isn't right.
Of course it was Aleppo.
Same country.
It had been under siege.
The fighting had been raging through there for years.
Most of the animals had been killed or they were starving or they were eating each other.
They were in shock from shell and machine gun fire.
Anyway, we got them all out and many of them were traumatized.
Some of them died.
But we rescued them and they're all now safe and sound.
All right.
Well, now, so this was the zoo in Gaza.
It couldn't be rehabilitated somehow and supported so the Gazans can have their zoo, if nothing else?
The poor people in Gaza don't have enough food to eat for themselves.
Literally, they're kept on a semi-starvation diet by the Israelis, who've turned Gaza into an open-air prison.
It was really a prison within a prison.
Just yesterday the Israelis were machine-gunning Palestinians who were trying to go out and catch some fish.
That's how pathetic it was.
So the Palestinians are down to about 600 or 700 calories a day.
And so trying to get them to do animal welfare, very difficult.
Anyway, the animals wanted out of there and it was time to go.
Yeah.
And so then what happened to them all?
Well, some of them were, some of the birds were released.
Some of the other animals are, there's a lovely wildlife sanctuary in next door, Jordan, run by the sister of the king.
Princess Aliyah is her name.
Lovely woman.
And it's called the Almawah Sanctuary in Arabic.
And a lot of these animals went to Almawah.
The lions went to South Africa.
There's a big animal refuge there called Lion's Rock.
Some of them went to Germany, to another lion refuge.
And we've got them all rehoused, including a big couple of bears, of which I'm very fond.
Yeah.
You know, that's great, man.
I'm really happy to hear that you're doing this stuff.
And I can see how much it matters to you, too, which makes it that much better.
Good stuff.
So tell us more about these Gazans.
Well, the situation in Gaza is hopeless.
It is one of the most dreadful places on earth.
And it's dreadful because it's hopeless.
There is no end in sight for the plight of the two million Palestinian refugees who live in this Gaza prison.
They're being held there.
It's a human garbage dump, really, to be crude about it.
There's never going to be a Palestinian state.
And recent moves have just confirmed that the U.S., which is now under Israeli tutelage, has wiped out the idea of another state for the Palestinians or any kind of independence and is now embarking on a new plan to take over more territory on the West Bank, backed by Trump and his advisers.
Hey, y'all, here's the thing.
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I don't know that we know all about this, but it was Sheldon Adelson's newspaper, Israel Hayam, I think it is in Israel, that had leaked Jared Kushner's deal of the century there.
And it's such a hoax.
I mean, I could see it representing the naivete of this idiot that like, well, we're just going to get the UAE to give them a few tens of billions of dollars and that ought to shut them up.
And we'll let them have, you know, a pretended little capital in some ghetto east of East Jerusalem there.
And they'll have to settle for that and that'll be it.
But at the same time, it seems like that's so ridiculous.
It's so obvious that the Palestinians could never accept that.
Any faction of Palestinians in power could never accept that.
In quote unquote power, relative power could ever go along with such a thing.
But then it seems like not a very convincing public relations stunt for the other explanation.
If they were just trying to do like Camp David 2 in 2000 and say, oh, see, we offered them the world and the moon.
And they said, forget it, because Arafat's just so greedy and this kind of thing.
If they can't really spin it that way, then what is even the point of coming up with something as ridiculous as this thing?
I don't know.
Sonny boy, Jared Kushner must have convinced Papa-in-law Trump that it was a brilliant idea.
I don't think that the U.S.'s own Arab satraps like Saudi Arabia or the Gulf states came up with this idea.
It's too preposterous and absurd.
You know, in the Arab world, they may be run down and decrepit and disorganized, but there's still a sense of honor in that part of the world.
People have personal honor and family honor.
And this is such a dishonorable and treacherous proposed deal that I can't see these Arabs accepting it.
Maybe some of the Arab quislings would.
The U.S. controls the Palestinian Authority government, but for the rest of the Arabs and for the Arab in the street, it's a shameful process.
Okay, but so the part of it that's legit—not legit, but you know what I mean, real—is the part where they say, yeah, we're not giving up this territory, really.
The best that we would even consider would be this ridiculous Bantustan of a pseudo-state with no power and no security force of its own or any of these things that define statehood.
And so that much we can take to the bank, right, that they have thrown in the towel on even the pretension of a two-state solution.
Absolutely, Scott.
In fact, as far back as Israel's founder, David Ben-Gurion, who said in a famous speech, which I quote in my book, American Raj, where he says, you know, it's not up to this generation to define Israel's borders.
He said that's to the next generation.
And the implication being that Israel has yet some expanding to do.
Who knows how much.
Yeah, maybe they'll end up in Baghdad or Basra someday.
I'll tell you, the Arabs could probably be better off being run by the Israelis.
Brutal as they are, their own Arab leaders are worse.
Yeah, well, and thanks to Israel's help in America launching Iraq War II and putting the current regime in power there, you know, I guess they'd be grateful for the help, for the crutch, for their broken leg that Israel helped break.
Well, you know, America's still, it's hard to tell, but America's still garrisoning Iraq and parts of Syria and even Egypt.
So it's kind of a hidden occupation.
There are about 5000 American troops there.
But that was the original plan to have a couple of major bases, as the British used to do, and use troops there to fly wherever there's problems, put down rebellions and rather discreetly control the area and also use lots of native troops.
They have a base in Egypt?
The U.S. has use of bases in Egypt.
They don't have a large permanent base, though the CIA and DIA and other intelligence agencies have substantial bases in Cairo and Alexandria.
I guess what they usually say is, well, we train them, but you have a giant presence in the name of training and support and this kind of thing.
And that's something that's not talked about very often.
Not to mention the American bases in the Gulf either, in Jordan and in Saudi Arabia and Qatar and Oman, United Arab Emirates.
They just keep going.
It's amazing.
Hang on just one second for me.
Hey, guys, you know, you probably need a new website.
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Well, I was just talking with Patrick Coburn about the continuing fight against the Sunni based insurgency in Western Iraq.
And I'm calling it Iraq war three and a half, you know, in the aftermath of the Islamic State there.
That was Iraq war three.
So this is the perpetual mopping up.
But essentially what he was talking about is the completely unresolved balance of power in Western Iraq.
I mean, the Iraqi army is there.
They have garrisons and control in that sense.
And yet Western Iraq, the predominantly Sunni parts of Iraq, are not really being integrated in any real way.
As per David Petraeus' promises into the new Iraqi democratic system at all.
They are just, they lost essentially is the deal.
And so I just wonder what you think about that balance of power and the future of that.
And in fact, speaking of Gulf state intervention in Egypt and everywhere else, Western Iraq too, right?
Yes.
Well, you know, Iraq is the quintessential Humpty Dumpty that can't be put back together again.
And it remains a sort of a sullen country where there are large areas, as you just mentioned, the Sunni Muslim areas that are kept under virtual martial law.
They never know when Shia gangs are going to descend on them and do pogroms.
They don't want the local, you know, the national government, which is run by the U.S.
And they are, they don't know who they are, what's happening.
It's a very bad situation.
Well, yeah.
And of course, Iran is in the middle of all of that too.
I wonder, what do you think of the recent attacks?
I was going to say bombings, but I guess it's questions of the delivery method here involved.
But we have these now four attacks on, or was it now six attacks on tankers in the Gulf, all of them blamed by the U.S. on Iran.
And I guess I'll add here in the setup for this, that I talked with Peter Ford earlier, who seems like a pretty anti-war guy, former British ambassador to Syria, and good on a great many of these things.
And he was saying, oh, it was Iran, all right.
He believes that.
And he said there's a very good reason for it, that they get a lot of bang for very little buck doing it this way, saying that we can escalate from very, very low rungs much higher up when it comes down to it.
But then, of course, there's a lot of people, it seems to me, who would be interested in entrapping them too.
So I'm curious about your take.
Scott, I just wrote a column on this, so it's very much in my mind.
But this is a worthy of Agatha Christie.
Who done it?
There are many suspects.
Yeah, well, it is a cheap way for Iran to put pressure on the United States and the West.
But why would Iran do it when it is in receiving the Japanese prime minister on a peace mission?
And that seems pretty crazy.
It seems like if the Ayatollah did that, then wow, what a nut that guy is.
And Pompeo's interpretation was like, this just goes to show what horrible people they are.
But it seems like some real question begging there.
The other possibility, I guess, would be if the IRGC did it, in a way like the CIA getting Gary Powers shot down in order to scotch that Eisenhower-Khrushchev meet.
Something like that.
But in that case, it seems like the Supreme Leader would probably have them hanged, right?
That's right.
He's a no-nonsense type.
And it wasn't even the president, right?
It was the Ayatollah himself who was sitting down with Abe at the time that this happened.
I mean, he either is really evil or really embarrassed.
That's right.
Japanese tankers set on fire.
And this is a very important move that Abe came there.
Japan gets most of its oil from, or much of its oil, from Iran.
Let's remember that the last time Japan's oil supply was threatened, the result was Pearl Harbor.
So, you know, who did it?
Iran may have done it.
But at the same time, so may have the Saudis or the Qataris.
Not Qataris, Emiratis.
And so may have the Israelis.
Many people want to provoke a war in that region.
Well, in the breaking news this morning, I'm not sure if you saw, NBC is reporting, and I talked with Eric Garris at Antiwar.com, and he was watching all the different channels and looking at the Post and the Times and the other websites.
And they were, at least this morning, a couple hours ago, as of a couple hours ago, they were ignoring this development.
But NBC is quoting the owner of the Japanese ship, saying that they were hit with a flying object or by a flying object, not a mine.
Yeah, I saw that.
That puts a problem for the Pentagon, which is claiming it has photo evidence of a nefarious Iranian patrol boat attaching a magnetic limpet mine, or removing it from the tanker.
And again, I guess that is superficially plausible that one of them didn't explode, and so they went to try to cover it up by getting rid of it or something like that.
But then, probably a simpler explanation would be, they went, look, a mine, and removed it heroically, something like that.
That's right.
And I'm not trying to conclude either way, but it just seemed like, yes, here's a picture of them nefariously removing a mine.
It doesn't exactly add up, right?
Putting it there would be a much more compelling clip.
I have to look and see what the Iranian press said about that, calling it a rescue mission.
Yeah, I mean, they were taking credit for helping.
I hadn't seen exactly on that point, but yeah.
Well, being an old Middle Eastern hand, I can tell you I don't trust anybody in that region.
Yeah, certainly not press TV.
They've censored me personally, so I don't take their word for anything.
Really?
Yeah, one time I blamed them for helping Rumsfeld cleanse Baghdad of Sunni Arabs back during the El Salvador option.
They didn't like that very much.
Press TV never forgets an enemy.
Yeah, well, it was still a pretty good interview even without that, actually.
So we have a lot of murkiness now.
It looks like we're stumbling into a shooting war there.
Well, now, so here's the thing about that is I know I got my bias and everything, but it seems like we don't really have anything to fight about at all other than fake problems.
Trump gets out of the nuclear deal.
They're still in it.
He puts all these sanctions on them.
They say, hey, take those sanctions off.
And then our side says, oh, yeah?
Are you threatening to attack us?
I mean, this whole thing is so contrived.
It is totally contrived.
Someone showed me Gulf of Tonkin was trending on Twitter as the major theme of the day yesterday was that essentially nobody believes in this.
Whoever was responsible for it, it doesn't sound like a good enough reason to do anything, according to everybody.
It could happen.
All you need is one military clash and I'll come with flags and CNN specials and defending America.
Well, listen, bang, we're in a small war.
Yeah, or worse.
You know, it's been brought up before, and I guess, you know, I had a Navy guy tell me once, come on, the Americans know how to win at sea.
They could kill the Russians from way over the horizon all along, essentially, in the Cold War.
And they sure as hell can bomb Iran from out of range of Iran.
They're not that stupid to get into a fight with an aircraft carrier right there.
But I think they are that stupid and that, boy, if the Iranians, if there was a real fight on and they sank an aircraft carrier or even any kind of comparable ship or collection of ships there, that could be a real backlash coming after that.
And that's the theory.
You know, they said this guy, Kurt Mills, who is a friend of mine, he's a good guy over at the National Interest.
He was talking to administration people, and they were saying, yeah, it'll be like Operation Desert Fox, which Bill Clinton named after Rommel the Nazi in 1998 when they bombed Iraq for a couple of weeks, in the name of weapons of mass destruction that hadn't existed for seven years by that point.
But anyway, and essentially, they'll just sit there and take it, because they know better than to hit back, because that'll make us really mad, and then we'll really start bombing them.
Which is kind of funny coming from a bunch of people who are saying we have to attack them before they attack us, and then they're saying they're betting on them to not even defend themselves.
But that seems like a pretty rosy scenario.
I wonder if that's what they're really telling Trump, that they know how overmatched they are, and if we hit them, they won't do anything?
Well, that's what they said about Iraq, too.
And the problem is there are a lot of juicy American targets in the Middle East.
There are American troops deployed all over.
There are the Saudi oil installations.
There are American air bases up and down the Gulf.
So the Iranians could hurt the United States, not defeat, but they could certainly inflict punishment.
But they don't want to, because we know that they know that they're going to get bombed flat, and there are only B-52s waiting there, and they have no Air Force to speak of.
So the Iranians are using bluff rather than real threats.
So they do have some torpedoes.
They do have some anti-ship missiles that might cause some damage.
Yeah.
All right, now, I'm sorry because I didn't save nearly enough time for this, but can you talk to me a little bit about the recent victory of Modi and his reelection, or his party's increased percentage of power in the parliament there, and what that means for India and the rest of us?
It's a very important development in the sense that Modi is the Hindu nationalist party, and they're very, very militant.
Their base of supporters, called the RSS, are an extreme Hindu, sort of semi-fascist Hindu organization that wants to drive all foreigners out of India.
That means, like, 200 million Muslims, and wants to develop Hindutva, as they call it, which is a kind of a Hindu nationalism to bring back the pure India of the past, make India great again.
And he's a clever ruler.
He was a good governor of Gujarat state, business-oriented, but he's got the backing of all these fanatical organizations.
Now, whether he can ride the tiger on their back, or whether they get control remains to be seen.
But these organizations, like the RSS, are the people who assassinated Mahatma Gandhi.
They are violent, they're dangerous, and they hate Muslims like crazy.
So, he has a job to do.
Did I read this right?
There's 200 million Indian Muslims?
Yeah, India is one of the biggest Muslim countries in the world.
Even though Muslims are a minority in India, there's still a hell of a lot of them.
Yeah, I mean, to ethnically cleanse them, or sectarianly cleanse them, or however you call that, would take nukes in their own country.
I mean, how else are you going to do that?
There's got to be a compromise here, my friends.
Well, Scott, there are these ethnic pogroms that go on.
It's called communal violence in India all the time.
People are burned alive, whole neighborhoods are put to the torch.
And, you know, things start over, you know, a traffic incident, or an argument in a retail store, and it just blows up.
I discuss this a lot in my first book.
I call it the hatred of brothers.
From what wellsprings comes this violent hatred?
And it has a lot to do with prejudice and with history.
It's very deep.
Yeah.
Yeah, and I've read about those things before.
In fact, Michael Scheuer, the former chief of the CIA's bin Laden unit, had pointed out that this was one of the constant criticisms of al-Qaeda in their recruiting propaganda.
It was lower down on the list, but consistently part of it was America clearly doesn't care about us, and clearly don't care about human rights at all, only their own interests, because they turn a blind eye to Russia, China, and India, and their persecution of Muslims.
They don't say anything about it.
And, in fact, then I think quite shortly after September 11th, maybe it was even in 2001, or early the next year, there was this giant pogrom where a few thousand, at least, maybe it was 10,000 people were killed.
And it was Modi's party that did it.
And Congressman Rice didn't say anything about it.
And Michael Scheuer said, see here, bin Laden had one of those podcasts that he put out in 2002 or something, had mentioned that.
And then, you know, post-September 11th, communications by bin Laden and Zawahiri said, see, there was this giant pogrom against Muslims in India, and the Americans don't care at all about that.
They only bear lip service to these things.
And that was this guy's group that did that pogrom.
The current leader.
Yeah, well, I don't think he was directly involved, but his lack of response to it was very concerning.
But let's remember that pogroms against Muslims is a horrible thing in Western China, with Chinese Muslims, Uyghurs, and the massacre of Rohingya Muslims in Burma.
The Muslim world hasn't done a damn thing either.
So before we blame America, we have to go after it, starting with the so-called self-proclaimed defenders of Islam, the Saudis, who have billions to spend on more weapons to bomb the Usmanis, but not a dime to help the Rohingya Muslims.
Well, in fact, part of the, at least, excuse for the attack against the Rohingya Muslims was that they were terrorists backed by the Saudis.
In fact, if the Saudis were backing anyone, it was probably armed fighters attacking civilians, because that's kind of their thing.
That's right.
The Saudis have a long history.
They do give money to different Muslim groups, radical groups, even.
But that's just to keep them away from Saudi Arabia.
They used to do the same thing with Libya.
And we saw in Afghanistan, you know as an Afghan expert, that the Saudis are happy to say, well, go make trouble somewhere else, but stay away from us.
Yeah.
Well, and, you know, we've got these thousands and thousands.
Peter Ford was saying it's 70,000 to 80,000 jihadists holed up in the Idlib province now, including a bunch of Uyghurs and who knows who else.
And I asked Patrick Coburn a minute later or so, and he said, yeah, that's the number that's passed around pretty much sounds credible.
Because you have, essentially, wherever jihadists in Syria have given up, they've all fled to Idlib, is sort of the last kind of readout there.
And then, so, there's a huge question of where are they all going to go?
Either the Russians and the Syrians are going to, you know, what, kill them all somehow?
Probably not.
More likely, they're going to go, eventually, to Turkey or to the wind.
And, you know, probably, I don't know how many hundreds or thousands of them have European passports.
You know, how many dozens or hundreds of them might make it to the United States or back to the United States.
Because some Americans did go to fight with the Islamic State.
Remember, that guy was prosecuted in court by the FBI, and his defense was, but the CIA recruited me to do it.
I thought they were moderates.
Look, I call them our jihadists.
Well, I don't know who owns them now, but that's the whole thing, is America can support these guys, but they don't really control their movements, necessarily, you know?
No, but Americans better hope they don't get saddled with these guys, too, because a lot of them are crazy.
These are fanatics, they're embittered, and a lot of the ISIS movement was funded and organized by the United States.
So, we have a responsibility, we just don't want to touch it with a ten-foot pole.
Yeah, well, nobody really has a solution to it, either.
Even all the people who told you so all along, like you were going, looking at Idlib province and going, well, I don't know, what do you do?
Drop an atom bomb on them or something?
Still, I think Coburn said three million civilians live there, and they've got tens of thousands of bin Ladenites embedded throughout that group.
Again, yeah, absolutely.
We'd be first to say it was, of course, America and allies who cooked this whole thing up since 2011 on.
You're one of my primary sources on that from 2011, came home from France, saying the French special forces and spies are already over there.
They're helping the rebellion and arming them and training them and all of these things.
That was one of the very first, I only got, I don't know, maybe a dozen solid sources about intervention in 2011.
You're certainly one of them there.
So, absolutely, the responsibility is important.
And, of course, the Saudis, as you said, those supposedly responsible for protecting Islam and all that.
Yeah, they do that by causing a war, helping cause a war, at least that killed a few hundred thousand people and promises all this future violence.
Anyway, I was going to try to come up with a question for you out of that, which was, it was going to be before I forgot, about what do you think is going to happen to these guys, really?
The future of the jihadists that are left over after the not quite finished, but almost finished Syrian civil war there.
Some could move to North Africa.
Remember, Morocco is an American satrapy.
They could ship some to Morocco.
The Moroccans could use them against the Sahrawi independence movement.
They could just sit there in Syria as they grow old and reminisce about the revolution.
Well, that sounds good.
That's probably the best.
I was thinking about the Uyghurs and how you had talked about going to Afghanistan in 2001 and seeing Uyghurs being trained by the CIA, just like the 80s old days, for use against the Chinese.
And so maybe we could bring back those days.
And after all, Obama used them in Syria this whole time, as well as using Afghan Taliban.
Remember that?
Afghan Taliban going to fight with the mythical moderates?
While the Hazaras, who we back in Afghanistan, were siding with Assad and Hezbollah?
Those were fun times just a couple of years ago there.
Anyway, so there's something, man.
What about CIA scooping up all those Uyghurs and then unleashing them on – maybe they can go liberate all those concentration camps in western China?
That would be a nice idea.
The Chinese are too ruthless.
Their army's too big.
I don't know.
Those poor Uyghurs are really – they'll be driven eventually across the border into Kazakhstan, I think, which lacks people in this pretty empty country.
But everybody we deal with ends up badly.
Remember the Chechens?
We were playing footsie with the Chechens, and they were always turning up in the Middle East and everywhere.
And now we abandon them completely, and the Russians crush the life out of them.
You don't hear anymore about Chechens.
Same could happen with the Uyghurs.
Yep.
No doubt a lot of them, you know, in the Afghan war, ended up in Guantanamo Bay when they'd just been our friends a few minutes before.
But those are the breaks.
That's right.
Henry Kissinger said that one of the few good things he ever said was the only thing more dangerous than being America's enemy is being its ally.
Exactly.
All right.
Well, great to talk to you.
Thank you again for coming on the show, Eric.
Scott's been a treat, as always.
Really do appreciate it.
And, you know, it's 5,000 today.
You're third to last here on the list before I get to 5,000, so I'm really glad that I was able to make you part of that.
Congratulations on a big 5,000.
All right.
Well, thanks a lot, man.
Appreciate that.
Okay, Scott.
Bye.
All right, you guys.
That's the great Eric Margulies.
EricMargulies.com.
Spell it like Margolis.
EricMargulies.com.
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