05/20/16 – Sut Jhally – The Scott Horton Show

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And introducing Sut Jolly.
He is, I'm not exactly sure, producer, director, something of this great new documentary, The Occupation of the American Mind, Israel's Public Relations War in the United States.
Welcome to the show, Sut.
How are you?
I'm good.
I'm the executive producer of the film.
Executive producer.
Yeah, I should have got that together before I introduced you, but you know what, sometimes I don't.
Well, thanks for putting up with me.
Executive producer.
Now, listen, you did a really great job on this, and it's stupid.
I know it's stupid.
You know it's stupid, but it's true.
Everybody hears this all the time, and so it's got to be said that you do a really good job of interviewing a bunch of very politically correct liberals and progressives, mostly, in this documentary.
There's not the slightest whiff of anti-Semitism.
I don't know exactly the number, but I bet at least half of your interviewees are Jewish themselves, some of them Israeli.
Even for people who are good on Israel-Palestine, they're kind of wary about every new thing that comes along the line, even if it confirms their bias, because what if it's an actual anti-Semite who's pretending to be a fellow traveler, or what if it's someone who's naive and makes the slightest mistake that leaves themselves open to accusations of anti-Semitism or this kind of thing?
And again, I know it's stupid and ridiculous, but that is the society we live in.
That's what the movie's about, in a way.
So there you go.
There's my disclaimer.
I've seen it, and it's perfectly legit and perfectly PC, so everyone should know that.
Okay, well, I mean, what you say is, the charge of anti-Semitism is one of the major PR propaganda moves to silence people, and it's precisely to do what you said, which is people are so worried about being accused of being a racist and an anti-Semite that it shuts otherwise good people up, people who know what the truth is, but they are so worried about what someone may say about them.
I have to say, it shut me up for about 10 years when I first started teaching.
I wasn't dealing with this issue.
I teach in the University of Massachusetts, and I teach these large lecture classes on ideology and propaganda, and for the first 10 years of my teaching, I didn't deal with this, and I thought, why haven't I dealt with it?
And I realized it was because it was cowardice on my part.
And you have to get past that.
People have to get past the idea that being called an anti-Semite is the worst thing in the world.
If you know what you think yourself, and if you know that your criticism of Israel is not based on that at all, then you shouldn't let that silence you.
Eventually, I realized that.
I said, this is a silencing mechanism, and I've got to get past the threat of it.
Yeah, well, and I think, or maybe I would just like to think, that these accusations are beginning to wear pretty thin.
I mean, you interview our friend M.J. Rosenberg in there, who says, you know, his wife was born in a Jewish refugee camp in Germany after World War II.
You know, he's M.J. Rosenberg, he used to work at AIPAC, for Christ's sake, and yet they call him an anti-Semite.
And at this point, I think more and more regular folks, even those not too interested in the subject hear that, and aren't too impressed anymore.
It's been overplayed and overused.
And especially in a world where there is real and vicious and horrible anti-Semitism that should be confronted and should be marginalized, and all of those things, the way that they try to do to, you know, more honest narratives about the occupation and the truth of the Israel-Palestine conflict.
I mean, that's actually what the end result of this becomes, is that when you call everything by the same name, then what are legitimate criticisms?
People might say, actually, well, if this is what anti-Semitism is, perhaps there's something to it.
I mean, essentially, the more that Israel says Israel equals Jews, then whatever Israel does equals Judaism.
And when Israel does horrible things, well, perhaps it's something to do with them being Jews.
That's not what the critics of Israel say.
That is what the proponents of Israel say.
They want to link Israel with Judaism.
And the more they do that, the more they link Judaism with the policies and the actions of the state of Israel.
And that is really, really dangerous.
Well, and you guys show in the movie that the supermajority, more than a supermajority of American Jews are opposed to the Likudnik policies in Israel.
Want a two-state solution yesterday, for one example.
Sure, yeah.
Good on Iran for another.
Yeah.
I mean, the policies of the right-wing government of Israel are diametrically opposed, as you say and as we say in the film, to the views of the vast majority of American Jews.
And yet, because of this linking between Israel and religion, people feel compelled to kind of defend the most horrible policies and actions by the state of Israel.
Well, and it's such effective propaganda too, because, well, I don't mind telling the story.
When I first started reading antiwar.com and reading Justin Raimondo there regularly in 2002 in the run-up to the Iraq war, I started to wonder, geez, maybe this guy is an anti-Semite because sometimes Donald Rumsfeld would say or do something really terrible.
And then Justin's article would be about Ariel Sharon again.
And I would think, man, you know, I don't know.
That's what we're all kind of led to believe is that if somebody really has Israel as a hobby horse, their real problem is Jews.
And they've just decided that this is, you know, a way that they can express their hatred and whatever, you know, safely or something like that.
And of course, what I came to understand was the reason he's writing about Ariel Sharon a lot is because Ariel Sharon has a lot more to do with American foreign policy than I had been led to believe so far.
I didn't understand what all it had to do with, for example, the run-up to the Iraq war.
And Justin did understand it.
And of course, I know Justin now, we disagree about some things, but he's certainly not an anti-Semite.
He's certainly never been motivated by anti-Semitism.
But even as radical as my politics were, I found myself really wondering.
And that's the success of the propaganda.
Geez, I don't know about this.
Even though he never said anything anti-Semitic at all.
There was nothing I could, no actual words he used I could have taken out of context.
It was just his single-mindedness on the subject matter seems suspicious, right?
And if that worked on me, then it sure as hell works on everybody else in spades.
Sure.
I mean, that's that's the strategy, you know, and that's why you keep I mean, that's why it just keeps getting, you know, used all the time.
I mean, you know, the narrator of our film is, you know, Roger Waters from Pink Floyd.
And when you look at the kind of, you know, the vehement criticism and the vehement attacks on him, it's not about the issues, it's not about the policies, it's not about Israel's occupation of the West Bank, it's not about the settlement, it's not about lack of control of land, it's not about any of those things.
It comes down to just, well, he must just be an anti-Semite, you know, Roger has taken just unbelievable criticism around this.
But I think actually, you're right, I think people are now starting to realize that the more that charge is made and made, you know, and made on an unfounded basis, the more it becomes clear that it's a propaganda technique.
And yeah, it's tough to it's not just, you know, you mentioned MJ Rosenberg in our film.
But you know, when there is huge when there is a lot of opposition to Israeli policies from within Israel itself, from Israeli Jews, you know, there's a lot of rabbis who think that what Israel is what Israel is doing in the West Bank is, you know, is totally moral and is in fact, antithetical to Jewish values.
It's tough to call a rabbi an anti-Semite, although actually, they do do it shameless in how they use the term.
Yeah, there's actually a great clip in the movie of Noam Chomsky quoting an Israeli strategist back when saying that this is what we've got to do is we've got to say any criticism of any kind is the critic himself is either an anti-Semite or self-hating Jew, period.
Well, that pretty much covers everybody.
And yet, and of course, the self-hating Jew think that doesn't stick as badly.
But the as anti-Semite does, but that's the thing that's really unfair in a country where, you know, more than 300 million Americans are not Jewish.
The rule supposedly is, well, they're not allowed to talk about you got to be Jewish to be able to talk about it and have cover and say, obviously, I'm not anti-Semitic because I'm Jewish.
Hey, Gentiles can talk about Israel policy.
They're paying for Israel policy.
They suffer from blowback from Israel policy.
It's their business in every way.
I think it's an essentially an American issue.
And the reason it's an American issue is because of the incredible support that the American state gives to the Israeli state and the blowback that results from that.
I mean, the reason to focus on Israel, you know, people often say, well, why Israel and not somewhere?
Well, you know, if you're an American, then you're responsible for what Israel is doing.
You are morally and ethically responsible for it.
And therefore it is your business to talk about it because American, American, the American state is supporting Israel mean directly through economic aid, through military aid, through protecting it diplomatically at the United Nations, etc.
American policy is inherently tied up with Israeli policy.
And therefore it is really up to Americans of all stripes to take this on as their issue.
All right.
Now, talk to us a little bit about Frank Luntz and his contribution to what Israel calls Hasbara, their public relations.
Frank Luntz is, you know, is a PR guy who works for Right Wing Places, but there was a foundation called the Israel Project that hired him to look specifically at what language and what phrases are the most effective in pushing the Israeli PR line and in pushing the Israeli talking points.
And he came up with a report.
It was published in 2009 called the Global Language Dictionary.
And if anyone wants to look it up on Google, Global Language Dictionary, Frank Luntz, they will come up, you can download it.
And in it, what he's done is he has done research.
It's not just his thoughts on this.
They have done focused, tested research on what words and what phrases work with Americans.
And within this report, you know, there's a, there's a, there's a, he outlines essentially a strategy of how Israeli public relations people should speak about this in a way that will persuade ordinary Americans about the story that Israel is telling.
It's a really incredible document that I wish, you know, I hope people will, will, will read.
And so in the film, what we do is we look at the 2014 attack on Gaza.
And we say, well, okay, what does, when, you know, because Luntz has a, Luntz has a set of, a policy or, you know, a set of suggestions as to what to do when Israel attacks, attacks Gaza.
And he says, you know, first of all, you have to express empathy.
And then we, you can see, and then we have a lot of, you know, spokespeople expressing empathy, saying, oh, it's terrible that this is happening.
And then you have to get people to be on board with, you know, Israeli suffering and of how the rockets are raining down on Israel.
And we then have a series of clips on, on, you know, people, not just Israelis, but on American newscasters, on, on the American president, Obama is saying it, Hillary Clinton is saying it.
And then the last thing he says is, and then what you should then, what Israeli spokesmen should do is say, what would you do given this?
What would you do?
And then we have a whole series of people saying, what would you do?
And so what we, you know, the Luntz has laid out the strategy and you just have to turn on the TV to see it in operation.
And it's not just Israeli spokespeople that are, you know, that, that, that mouth it, it comes out of the words of commentators, it comes out of the words of especially newscasters.
And when you can put your words, when you can put your story in the words of what's supposedly neutral people, then it doesn't appear as propaganda at all.
It just appears as though it's news.
And Israel has been incredibly successful in being able to do that.
Yeah.
And you know, it was reminding me of Scott Adams.
I don't know if you've discovered this guy, the author of the Dilbert cartoon is actually a master hypnotist and a master persuader and has been writing for the last year all about Trump and Donald Trump's persuasion skills and how good he is at making people believe in him.
And one of the things that he talks about, and this is basic salesmanship 101, I guess, is the arguing past the sale.
So when I'm president, I'm going to do this, that, the other thing.
And he didn't even bother having to say, I'm going to get elected president.
He's already got you imagining him in the Oval Office doing this or that, or, you know, you're here looking at a car.
Do you want the blue one or do you want the red one in your driveway tomorrow morning?
Right.
And so in that way, we're arguing just about the color.
And here they do it perfect by saying, we have the right to defend ourselves is the perfect method there of arguing past the sale where they don't have to establish that they are defending themselves at all or who's occupying who or what any of the facts are at all.
Really, they just by asserting that they have the right to do it, they're establishing without even having to assert so that that is, in fact, what they are doing.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, in the film we talk about, I mean, in this report that Frank Luntz did, I say the three most important words that kind of sum up the Israeli PR strategy.
Luntz says we have to talk about terror, not territory.
He says the moment you start talking about territory, the moment you start talking about land and about occupation, American public opinion clips against you.
And so you have to make sure you never talk about reality.
You have to make sure you never talk about history.
You have to make sure you never talk about the real things about the occupation of the West Bank, of the siege of Gaza.
You have to make sure you never talk about that.
And all you talk about is terrorism.
And that's like a magician.
You know, magicians work through sleight of hand.
Magicians work by misdirection.
You know, they want you to look on one place, whereas the real action is going on somewhere else.
And that's the same way that this propaganda works.
They want you to think only about Hamas and terrorism and rockets raining down.
They don't want you to think about the occupation that's going on every single day and has gone on every single day now for almost the last 50 years.
That's misdirection.
Well, it speaks well for Americans, doesn't it, that what Luntz found with his focus groups is you have to absolutely lie.
You have to just pretend that the Palestinians are occupying Israel.
I remember one of the phrases out of there was that the Palestinians on the West Bank should be compared to Jim Crow segregationist white supremacists in the American South who refuse to just let the Jews live wherever they want.
Why are they such Arab supremacists?
In other words, just outright lie to their faces.
And if you have to talk about territory at all, you just make it sound like the Israelis are being invaded and occupied by the Palestinians.
Yeah, that's actually where one of the places I started off in my classes at the University of Massachusetts about about 10 years ago, I did a survey with my students and I asked them not what they thought, but what they knew.
And so I asked them a fact based question about who's occupying who, you know, in the Middle East.
And the vast majority of them thought that it was the Palestinians who were illegally occupying someone else's land in the Middle East.
When you can switch reality like that on its head, then there's some very, very serious propaganda that's going on.
Yeah, Grant Smith from the Institute for Research just did a poll like that as well.
Yeah.
And in one sense, you're right.
I mean, what kind of encourages me is that you have to keep doing this, that unless there is this kind of massive propaganda campaign, that, you know, people will find out the truth.
And when people find out that they've been hoodwinked and when people find out that they've been told a pack of lies, then suddenly, you know, the scales will fall from their eyes on this particular issue, which is why the propaganda has to be so intense to make sure that never happens and that anyone who tries to tell a different kind of story has to be silenced straight away by being an anti-Semite or a self-hating Jew or a supporter of terrorism or something.
They don't want you to actually think about the situation in any kind of rational way that really understands the truth of the situation.
And in that sense, I'm hopeful because we have the truth on our side.
And if you can get people to actually think about what's actually going on, they know that the battle is lost at that point.
Yeah.
You know, another thing in that Luntz, I should use this more often.
We all should, that Luntz study, the first one, I haven't read the new one, but the one from 09, apparently some Hezbollahists had been claiming that, look, these Palestinians in East Jerusalem, they were in violation of the zoning laws.
So that's why we had to bulldoze all their houses.
And Luntz said, no, no, don't say that.
Americans hate zoning laws.
And especially if they understand that the Palestinians' homes have been there for a hundred years and your zoning laws have been there for five.
Oh, no, dude.
Don't say zoning laws.
So anyway, I just like that.
The key thing is, I mean, he's talking about American public opinion.
And because he realizes and, you know, Israel realizes that it's American public opinion that's the key.
That if you can keep American public opinion under control, then Americans won't put any pressure on their representatives in Congress who have already been bought off.
And the representatives of Congress can go along with, you know, their almost 100 percent support for Israel.
And therefore, you have to think about, OK, what the Americans, a lot of Americans, not everyone, but a lot of Americans, as you said, hate government.
They hate zoning laws.
And so you have to frame things in a way that resonates with what Americans are thinking, which is why the film is called The Occupation of the American Mind, because the occupation of American public opinion is absolutely fundamental to American support.
And American support is absolutely fundamental to the occupation of the West Bank and the siege of Gaza.
So American public opinion is part of that whole warfare apparatus, the control of American public opinion and keeping it very, very tightly under wraps.
Well, it's important to put in parentheses there that American support is not necessary for the existence of Israel.
It's just them getting away with bloody murder all the time that requires the world empire to have their back.
But if they would just withdraw to the green line, they've already got the consensus of every state in the neighborhood and including Hamas has said, I saw him on Charlie Rose say that, yes, we would recognize Israel within 67 borders.
And then Netanyahu moves the goalposts and says, oh, yeah, well, you got to call it a Jewish state at the expense of all the Christian and Muslim Palestinian Israeli citizens.
And so then that makes it more difficult.
But even they are willing to settle for an Arafat in the PLA and PLO have been have said this since 1988, of course, what you guys describe in the movie as 22 percent of historic Palestine.
They have said, fine, fine, we'll take 22 percent, but that's not good enough at all.
No.
And in the film, we show Moshe Dayan, you know, saying that after the 67 takeover of the West Bank, that this is a permanent takeover and Israel and in the film, we also have Norman Finkelstein.
You know, he says when he talks about the peace process, you know, this which has been going on now for over 20 years, which make it clear that it's not really a peace process.
He says, you know, what's going on in the peace process is not a peace process.
It's an annexation process whereby Israel is going to take up more, is going to control more and more of the West Bank and the and they're never going to withdraw and they're never going to withdraw until there is, you know, until there is world pressure and there is world pressure coming from every place except for the United States, which is the most important, which is why American public opinion is so important, which is why there has to be this incredible focus on controlling American public opinion, because if you can control that, it allows them then to occupy the West Bank essentially forever, which is what they want to do.
All right.
Now, let me ask you about the Hasbara campaign itself, because I think, you know, if we could compare it to American terms, people remember, well, let's send Karen Hughes and Condoleezza Rice and they'll go to a speaking tour and explain to the Arabs that we only kill you because we love you and whatever, you know, we know that the CIA and the NED engage in propaganda campaigns and try to influence elections and that kind of thing.
But it seems like at least as portrayed in the movie, the Hasbara campaign is it's like a huge, it's like a cabinet department or something.
It's a huge part of the Israeli government is.
And in fact, even can you talk about the TV show, their version of The Apprentice and all that?
Yeah, I mean, the Hasbara project really starts off after after 1982, when Israel invades Lebanon and on American TV, there is incredibly critical coverage of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon and especially and also of the massacres that took place at the refugee camps of Shabra and Shatila afterwards.
If you look, if you go back and look at American American coverage, it's amazing compared to what it is right because what it is now, because it's actually quite critical.
And what Israel says at that point, what it says, we can't let this happen again.
We have to control American media.
We have to control American politics.
We have to control American public opinion.
And they have a conference in Jerusalem in 1984, which they call the Hasbara project, where they pull together all kinds of people, including lots of PR people, public relations experts and advertising experts from the US.
And they say, look, the telling of the story is as important as the actions on the ground.
And coming out of that conference, they recommend that they be a cabinet level position that's devoted entirely only to propaganda.
And so in the film, we have Max Blumenthal saying how this Hasbara project or the Hasbara process is an essential part of Israeli warfare.
In Israel, as you said, there was a there's a show that's called The Ambassador.
And that is based on a little bit on Donald Trump's show, The Apprentice, where, you know, to sell lemonade in The Apprentice, whereas in The Ambassador, the goal is who can tell the best story for Israel.
And so within Israel, it's not a surprise.
People in Israel know that everyone is engaged in this kind of propaganda campaign.
Just people in the United States don't know it.
And that's when propaganda works the best.
As soon as you can see propaganda, then it stops working.
People in people in authoritarian states, people who live in Russia or used to live in the Soviet Union, the propaganda was relatively ineffective because they knew it was propaganda.
Whereas Americans, when you don't know it's propaganda, that is the most effective form of propaganda because it just appears as though it's natural.
And that's the aim of the Hasbara project, the Israeli Hasbara project in the United States, is to make Israel's occupation seem natural and as though it couldn't happen in any other way.
Let me ask you about the phrase land for peace.
I know this goes back to before the, you know, Luntz project of 2009.
But this is the one that always had me confused.
In fact, I mentioned that Grant Smith survey where he asked people in Britain, Canada and the United States who occupies whom.
And it's only the Americans that believe that the Palestinians occupy the Israelis.
And he got the idea for that poll from me because I was describing to him about how confused I was before I, you know, when I was younger and never really started reading about it.
And all I knew was what I learned from TV.
They never really described the West Bank as occupied and controlled by the Israelis at all.
Now, there's a little bit of confusion because they talk about a Palestinian state is something that maybe will take place one day.
But at the same time, they more or less pretend it already is that the Palestinians are the country next door and that they're waging this terrorist war against Israel.
And only if Israel will give up some of their land to the Palestinians, then they'll have peace.
They're being blackmailed and extorted by the terrorists.
And so and then can you believe the nerve of liberal weakling traders like Yitzhak Rabin who would actually give up land for peace to these terrorist extortionists?
I mean, what kind of terrible treason is that?
And that seems to me like as as powerful as a misinformed or disinformed narrative there on this issue.
That's the one that got me when I was a kid.
It at least had me in a state of confusion about who was occupying who or whether there was really an occupation at all.
Who is demanding what from whom?
So but I wonder if you know specifically about that phrase and whether it was actually invented for that purpose.
I don't know about that phrase in particular.
You know, that comes about before the camp or before the peace process starts.
But again, it's like what you're describing is exactly what propaganda is supposed to do.
It confuses people.
And so you almost you know, you don't know, you think you don't know what's going on.
Therefore, you don't think you should have an opinion about it or you don't really understand it fully.
And if you can keep people confused, and that's exactly what the propaganda campaign is supposed to do, is supposed to confuse like who's occupying who.
You can't really talk about occupation, you know, you talk about the disputed territory as well.
Who's disputed territories?
Who has to give up land?
Whose land is it?
And as soon as you can do that, you have confused the entire situation.
And so, you know, the best thing that you can do is you can try and cut through the confusion is actually to try and understand history.
You know, when I teach these classes at UMass, one of my students actually came up to me once, because when I teach these, I spend one class just looking at the history of the Middle East and the history of Israel and Palestine.
And actually, a student came up to me and said, you know, that's the most radical thing class that you've actually taught, because you actually just laid out what the history of it is.
And that is what, and Israel, Israel PR is scared stiff of Americans understanding the actual history of it.
And therefore, they have to confuse things with these phrases or with things like land for peace, etc.
But I would, you know, the major thing that people can do is try and get a really clear understanding of the situation.
And it's not very difficult if the situation is presented as though it's been going on for thousands of years, and these people have been at each other's throats.
And it's not, it's actually a very, it's one of the simplest conflicts to understand in the modern world.
And if people, you know, spend just a little bit of time, they can come to a very, very good understanding of this.
And then suddenly realize that they've been caught up in this incredible propaganda campaign for their entire lives.
Right.
Yeah.
Because that's another one of the myths.
Oh, well, you know, it's just a religious war over land.
It's been going on for thousands of years.
And in other words, like you're saying, but out, it's not my thing.
It's too complicated for me to have a firm opinion about that kind of deal.
But no, it's really actually only been going on in the current stage since World War Two.
And that's not ancient history.
That's easy.
You know, what it is, is it's been going on for less than 100 years.
And it's not difficult to understand.
It's about land, who controls land, you know, whose land was it, who, you know, who now controls it.
And as you say, it's not thousands of years.
It's got almost nothing to do with religion.
It's got everything to do with politics and control of resources.
So if you understand it, not as a religious conflict, but as a conflict, as a political conflict over resources and land, it actually is one of the clearest and easiest to understand.
All right.
Well, listen, I think you guys did a really great job on this movie.
Again, everybody, it's called The Occupation of the American Mind, Israel's public relations war in the United States.
Now, I got a review copy here, but what do others do to watch this thing?
When does it come out?
Well, we decided it's so difficult to get word of this out, you know, I mean, we weren't surprised that we've been having trouble getting word of this out to people, you know.
So we've said we've decided that we're going to distribute it directly to people.
So people can actually, you can actually stream it.
I think it's for $5.
We hope people will get more.
You can buy DVD at a website and the website is www.occupationmovie.com, www.occupationmovie.com.
If you go there, you'll see, you can see, and again, we've been getting incredible responses when we've sent it out for review.
We've been getting incredible responses.
You can see the responses there, but you can also directly just watch the film at that website.
Yeah.
Oh, great.
I didn't realize that.
That's good to know.
And again, you did a real great job on this thing.
I really appreciate your time on the show to talk about it and the work that you guys all did on it.
Okay, great.
Thank you.
Appreciate it.
Okay.
Bye-bye.
All right.
Scott Horton, executive producer of this great movie, The Occupation of the American Mind, occupationmovie.com.
Thanks very much, y'all, for listening.
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