Sorry, I'm late.
I had to stop by the Wax Museum again and give the finger to FDR.
We know Al-Qaeda, Zawahiri, is supporting the opposition in Syria.
Are we supporting Al-Qaeda in Syria?
It's a proud day for America.
And by God, we've kicked Vietnam syndrome once and for all.
Thank you very, very much.
I say it, I say it again, you've been had.
You've been took.
You've been hoodwinked.
These witnesses are trying to simply deny things that just about everybody else accepts as fact.
He came, he saw, he died.
We ain't killing they army, but we killing them.
We be on CNN like, say our name, bitch, say it, say it three times.
The meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world.
Then there's going to be an invasion.
All right, you guys, introducing David Vine.
He wrote that book, Island of Shame, about Diego Garcia, the so-called British, but really American air base there, stolen from the people of the Chagos Archipelago.
Welcome back to the show.
How are you doing, David?
I'm good.
Thank you so much for having me back, Scott.
I'm completely spacing out.
What's the name of your book about the bases again?
Base Nation.
See, I was going to say that, but then I wasn't sure.
Go with your gut, Horton.
Base Nation, that's picking up where Chalmers Johnson left off in cataloging America's empire of bases around the world there.
I think, I guess I have a pretty good idea of how you got started on that.
And in fact, I guess I'll go ahead and say that in Island of Shame, you have a really great rundown about the global military bases right there in that one, too.
People are interested in that.
So tell us, where's the Chagos Archipelago, and what's the deal, and what's the latest news?
And take your time.
We got time.
Sure.
Thank you.
Yes, the Chagos Archipelago is the little-known group of islands in the middle of the Indian Ocean, where there is a very large, as you alluded to, U.S. military base on the island of Diego Garcia.
So it's part of this larger Chagos Archipelago.
And the only reason the United States has a major Air Force and Navy base there is because in the late 1960s and early 1970s, as I talk about in my book Island of Shame, the U.S. and British governments colluded to forcibly remove every last indigenous Chagossian.
There had been a group of people called the Chagossians who had been living there since the late 18th century, around the time of the American Revolution.
Their ancestors had been brought there as enslaved people and as indentured laborers from India and Southern Africa.
And over time, they created a new culture, a new society, and were living in what weren't luxurious surroundings.
They were working on plantations on the island.
But they were living what one Chagossian told me was the sweet life.
They had universal employment.
They had basic health care.
They had education.
They had guaranteed employment benefits like vacation and burial benefits, housing.
So it was a very secure life until the U.S. and British governments came along and forced the Chagossians out.
They simply, in most cases, simply dumped them on the docks in Mauritius and the Seychelles, in the Western Indian Ocean about 1,200 miles from Diego Garcia and the other islands in the Chagos Archipelago.
So the reason this is in the news lately, as some might have seen, is because the government of Mauritius took Britain to first the United Nations and then to the International Court of Justice.
So the story is a bit complicated, but to create the base, at the suggestion of the United States, the British government created its last colony, its last created colony.
It still has about 14 small groups of islands that are still colonies.
But its last created colony was what they called the British Indian Ocean Territory.
And it had one function, one reason for being, and that was to create this U.S. military base on Diego Garcia.
And to do that, though, Britain separated those Chagos Islands from colonial Mauritius.
The Chagos Islands had been part of colonial Mauritius since the 18th century, since Britain seized the island from France, in fact.
So this was explicitly against the rules, the U.N. rules of decolonization.
It said you couldn't chop up colonies when you were granting them independence.
But basically what the British government did at the time, in the mid-1960s, was it forced Mauritian representatives who were negotiating independence to give up the islands.
It said either you give us the islands and we'll give you three million pounds, or you don't get independence.
So it was fairly obvious what they were going to do.
And since that time, the Mauritian government have objected here and there, mostly in sort of ceremonial settings and said, you know, these islands really belong to us.
But they kicked up their game significantly in the past couple of years in taking their case to the International Court of Justice in The Hague.
And earlier this year, the International Court found in favor of Mauritius.
It found that the ongoing occupation of the Chagos Islands by Britain is unlawful and ordered Britain to leave.
And this is, strictly speaking, an advisory opinion.
Of course, the International Court doesn't have an army to force Britain out.
But it sent the issue back to the United Nations.
And just last week, the General Assembly voted overwhelmingly in support of this international court ruling and gave Britain six months to leave the archipelago.
The vote was 116 to six.
And listeners can probably guess who were among the six.
In addition to Britain, the U.S. supported Britain, and then Australia, Israel, and a couple others.
Hungary was one of them, backed Britain.
So it pointed to the tremendous diplomatic isolation that Britain is facing the world today in the era where Brexit may come to pass and the diplomatic isolation of the United States, given the Trump administration's work in alienating most of the world.
So that's basically where things stand.
There's still a huge open question about what Britain will do in response to this ruling in support of Mauritian sovereignty over the Chagos archipelago and this order to leave within six months.
Yeah, well, like you say, the powerful, they don't really have to go along with this kind of thing if they don't want to.
But then, you know, it is an archipelago, right?
And Diego Garcia is what is really of interest to the United States.
We want to be able to drop thermonuclear weapons on anyone in the world from that base on a moment's notice.
That's the American so-called security interest there.
But what about the rest of the islands?
Can't they let the people come back and have the rest of everything except Diego Garcia itself?
You would think.
You would think.
There are, of course, civilian populations living next to U.S. military bases around the world.
A huge collection of, as you alluded to, this empire of bases, around 800 bases outside the 50 states.
Do I remember right from your book that there are some people who do still live there on some of those islands?
The only people living on the islands are, of course, U.S. and a very small number of British military personnel.
And then there are basically Filipino and some Mauritian civilian contract workers who were brought in.
But the rest of the islands are essentially, I don't want to say abandoned, but empty, abandoned at bayonet point.
Yeah, they were emptied.
The Chagossians were forced out of all the islands.
And the other islands are about 150 miles from Diego Garcia.
And British and U.S. officials talk about the security threat that a civilian population would pose.
But these sorts of arguments that have been described even by British judges as fanciful.
Well, and I know from your book that it's perfectly fine for millionaires and billionaires to park their yachts there and have their civilians who are allowed to come and vacation and have a good time.
But, oh no, if the poor people who own that property were allowed to exist there, they would be in danger.
We're just trying to keep them safe.
Yeah, it's really absurd and outrageous.
As you said, there are yachties who are crossing the Indian Ocean and stop in the, not at Diego Garcia, but the other islands of the Chagos Archipelago and stay there for weeks and literally months at a time, enjoying the beaches and the gorgeous tropical islands.
Of course, most if not all of these yachties are white-skinned.
Meanwhile, the Chagossians are people of African and Indian ancestry.
And as you said, they can't go back.
And it points to the racism that has underlined this entire story from the moment U.S. officials dreamt up the idea of a base for Diego Garcia and dreamt up the plan to force all the Chagossians from their homeland.
No, no.
This is a land without people for people without a giant Air Force base.
So, it's all good.
Yeah, that was entirely the plan.
Right.
And, I mean, that was the deal, right?
They did lie and pretend that there were no victims here, just like a bunch of Palestinians.
Exactly.
They crafted a public relations campaign, U.S. and British officials together, to, as it said in one British document, maintain the fiction that the Chagossians weren't the indigenous people of the archipelago, but instead were transient laborers or migrant workers who could be sent to their proper homes.
And meanwhile, U.S. officials and British officials knew this to be entirely untrue, that the Chagossians traced their ancestry back generations in the islands.
But that's what they—if anyone bothered to ask, that's what U.S. and British officials told people.
They told members of Congress when the Navy finally went to ask for money to build the base.
And they told any journalist the same.
They fed them the same line.
Now, of course, British officials say, oh, we really regret how the Chagossians were treated years ago.
But meanwhile, they and U.S. officials are perpetuating this, what really is a crime committed against the Chagossians by not allowing them to go home.
Yeah.
All right.
So what kind of reaction did the court decision and the General Assembly vote there get, other than the Americans and the Brits opposing it, but in terms of media coverage or further statements by officials involved of any future plans or changes of plans or anything?
Yeah.
So, of course, the British representative at the United Nations was very much opposed and railed against the General Assembly's vote, despite the 116 to 6, what the Guardian newspaper described as a crushing defeat for Britain and the United States.
The most encouraging reaction in some ways is encouraging that it got widespread media attention, not just in Britain, but also in the United States, which is rare for the Chagossians and for Diego Garcia.
But all the major Washington Post, New York Times, CNN, Time covered the story.
And the most encouraging sign, especially amid all the turmoil in British politics, is that Jeremy Corbyn, the leader of the opposition Labour Party, tweeted his support for the ruling, his absolute support for the ruling.
He's actually been one of the Chagossians' biggest advocates going back to the 1970s when he entered Parliament.
So the future of the British government is very much uncertain.
So it is not very much within the realm of possibility that in the next six months there'd be a change in government.
Now, whether the Labour Party and Jeremy Corbyn would take over is an open question as well.
But it is very encouraging, and I think it's not clear at all what will happen.
And I think in the long term, whether Britain leaves in the next six months or not, I think in the long term the Chagossians are going to go back.
It's just a matter of time.
It is important to point out that the Chagossians, most of them, are not calling for the removal of base.
They just want to go back to their homeland, a place where their ancestors were living in peace, and a place where their ancestors are buried.
Well, and that goes to the real point here, that the UK is essentially superfluous here.
They're providing the legal fiction, but it's an American air force base.
That's exactly right.
A naval base.
Exactly.
And Mauritius knows this as well.
And they, of course, I think Mauritius – there are sort of two crimes here.
One was the expulsion of the Chagossians.
The other was, indeed, that Britain simply took these islands from the nation of Mauritius, gaining its independence.
But the government of Mauritius now sees the possibility that they could probably collect some rent from the United States.
They have not called for the removal of the base.
In fact, they've indicated that they would support its continued operation.
They also have other economic interests in getting the islands back.
But I think it really is just a matter of time before the Chagossians return, and this U.N.
General Assembly vote only heaps more pressure on both the British and U.S. governments, and makes them look all the worse, as if they could look worse.
Yeah, indeed.
All right.
Well, listen, I sure appreciate your time on the show and your coverage of this important issue.
And, you know, please feel free to let us know if there's new news, because it's pretty easy to miss.
Indeed.
But I really appreciate your continuing to follow the story and cover it and give it attention, because it really needs much more attention in the United States.
And I would only encourage your listeners to tell others about the Chagossians and about the Agro-Garcia.
And if they're interested in learning more and getting involved, there's a U.S.-Chagossian support association and group called Let Us Return USA, which people can find on Facebook and online.
Cool.
Very good.
And, you know, audience, too, we just barely scratched the surface of this story.
You've got to read the book Island of Shame by David Vine.
I know you'll really appreciate it.
Thank you again, David.
Thank you so much, Scott.
All right.
And again, he said that's Let Us Return USA, if you're interested in the Chagossians' plight there.
All right, y'all.
Thanks.
Find me at libertarianinstitute.org, at scotthorton.org, antiwar.com, and reddit.com slash scotthortonshow.
Oh, yeah.
And read my book, Fool's Errand, Timed and the War in Afghanistan at foolserrand.us.
