04/26/17 – Joey Lawrence on the Kurdish militias fighting on the front lines in Iraq and Syria – The Scott Horton Show

Hey, I'll check out the audio book of Lou Rockwell's fascism versus capitalism narrated by me Scott Horton at audible.com It's a great collection of his essays and speeches on the important tradition of Liberty from medieval history to the Ron Paul revolution Rockwell blasts our status enemies profiles our greatest libertarian heroes and prescribes the path forward in the battle against Leviathan fascism versus capitalism by Lou Rockwell for audio book find it at audible Amazon iTunes or just click in the right margin of my Website at Scott Horton org.
All right, y'all Scott Horton show check out the full archives at Scott Horton org slash interviews and at Libertarian Institute Org slash Scott Horton show follow me on twitter at Scott Horton show All right, introducing our friend Joey L the photographer Joey Lawrence.
It's Joey L calm and Yeah, boy you talk about photography.
This isn't your local family portrait studio And this is really incredible stuff that you've got here from I guess all over the world You want to tell us real quick get diverted before we get into the important news?where all you've been and we talked before about all your great work in Syria and hanging out with the YPG and all that but we're all else in the world.
Are you getting all these great pictures from?
Taking great pictures.
Thank you.
I mean, I'm certainly not not above taking family portraits Sometimes I get suckered into it myself at Christmas time But My I should say not merely then No, I mean sometimes but you know when your family goes.
Oh, you're the photographer.
It means you can take some family photos Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that.
But no my work is different.
I work actually all around the world at the end of the week I'll be going back to Africa for another project Iraq and Syria, especially from from the Kurdish point of view has been a focus of mine recently But I've also done projects on indigenous cultures and minority ethnic groups all over the world in Ethiopia Indonesia Some of my clients are National Geographic Channel the US Army itself for some of their campaigns and advertisements and things like that And Yeah, I'm a freelancer Totally independent and because of that the things I've seen on the ground sometimes aren't filtered through The media apparatus that a lot of people are used to.
Yeah.
Well, I'm not too much into movie stars and stuff But Danny DeVito, huh?
That's cool.
You got to hang out with that guy even for a minute.
Yeah well my Twitter stream always looks like an eclectic mess because One day the other day I posted a magazine cover I shot with Blondie and the next day I'm on a rant to get about something happening in Iraq So it looks it looks a little bit all over the place.
But yeah, that's my work.
I'm a photographer I'm not a journalist, but I certainly pay attention and study the things that I'm photographing Very very closely, right and now tell me again the names of the movies about your time in Kurdistan the two films that you did yeah, so The one on Vimeo right now is called guerrilla fighters of Kurdistan people can check that out it's more of a behind-the-scenes look at one of my first photo trip and the others are still on their way and Editing process and they'll be ready really soon.
But my most recent project is from the front lines of Raqqa You can see that on my blog Joey L comm slash blog and I wrote my own piece it ran on soft wrap as well the military Publication but on my blog the images are displayed as big as can be so I would suggest people to check that out if they're curious Cool.
Yeah, and again, that's Joey L calm easy enough and lots of great stuff there to look at too Okay, so yeah speaking of Raqqa and the the YPG and this and that I'm doing this thing a Q&A now because people miss my live show where I did all my own talking so much So I'm doing this Q&A thing and people are asking me things like what's the YPG What's Rojava?
What is?
What is Syrian Kurdistan in the most general sense?
So let's start with that.
What what is Rojava?
Rojava is a de facto autonomous zone that's run by Syrian Democratic Forces So, I guess the short form is is the ancient homeland of the Kurds is divided up between Some nation-states we know today such as Iraq Syria Turkey Iran Rojava refers to West West Kurdistan.
That's the word that Kurds use when to fast forward in time, let's say and we're skipping a lot of history here, but for the short version When the Syrian army was forced to retreat from those areas in 2011 2012 Those Kurdish forces actually took control of the area near the Turkish border.
So it's a contentious place because The Turks have been hostile to this movement But it's de facto autonomous zone Rojava is the Kurdish name and I guess the more modern day use is being called North Syria Federation because this area includes more than just Kurds.
Of course, it includes a lot of other ethnic groups and There's Arabs Turkmen Syriacs Kurds all living together there.
So the name they use now is the North Federation I see so now at the start of the war really the cost of spell a they said was And now that's a religious designation and They're some of them are Kurds, but not all of them are Kurds.
Is that right?
It's a good question.
I don't know what difference it makes.
I'm just curious Yeah, yeah, if you talk to some Yazidi people, they'll associate themselves with Kurds such as my translator Who I've worked with on every trip of mine.
He's a Kurd first and he considers his religion Yazidi Some Yazidis believe that Yazidi is an ethnic group.
So They're uncomfortable by being called Kurds because you have to remember that these are a minority group and Basically how that works is if you're surrounded by other groups Sometimes to survive you have to adopt their identity So some Yazidis might one day have called themselves Arabs because they live next to Arabs You had it right yourself.
It doesn't really matter.
But you know, these are the the thoughts of the local people So what I do is sort of just make a distinction to be careful and however, somebody wants to be called I'll just use that that word but it does matter.
It just doesn't matter to me, but it does matter to them Yes, it matters to the people they have to deal with so that's why it's important.
Yes Yeah, so that's why I'll use whatever term that they feel that they feel is appropriate Yes, yeah, so that's why I'll use whatever term that they feel that they feel comfortable with because it's you know I'm not an anthropologist.
It's not up to me to decide sure Okay, so now Did I understand you right when we were just talking a minute ago before we started the recording here that Back when you were embedded with these ypg forces that those were primarily Yazidis within the ypg.
Is that right?
No, okay, I misunderstood I had it right the first time and I just now was confused, okay No, it's it's it's it's it's hard because you know, like anything in this war.
It's acronym soup, but Ypg is the this the syrian kurds.
That's the name of their militia The acronym stands for people's protection forces people's defense forces Yebisha ybs is the name of the yazidi militia in sinjar mountain You can say that yebisha was trained by pkk and ypg So i'll give you basically a very rough background of what happened because it'll make a lot more sense if I explain it this way in august 2014 when isis had its uh, horrific offensive, uh in the nineveh plains Of course you heard of the atrocities and the genocide committed against uh, yazidi people Now in that month, uh, peshmerga forces iraqi army forces fled that region.
They retreated from that region.
They also Confiscated a lot of the weapons that local yazidi people had and uh, basically the people that came and These were individual fighters that actually didn't even receive an order from their commander They just went, uh after hearing about the atrocities they went themselves In pickup trucks with just light arms as all these other more equipped forces Went to the front line to fight And they were able to get a lot of the weapons that they needed And they were able to get a lot of the weapons that they needed In pickup trucks with just light arms as all these other more equipped forces were retreating They actually entered isis territory by themselves with light weapons They made a corridor, uh in the mountain and started to save yazidi families At the same time pkk guerrilla fighters, uh also entered Using the syrian corridor They joined as well and they saved thousands of yazidi families And basically those commanders Uh would go on to organize the yazidi fighters in refugee camps give them training both ideologically training in the way of pkk militarily training in the way of guerrilla forces and they established Yebisha, which has the similar like ypg.
They have a component of male and female fighters And uh at this time yebisha has about 2 000 fighters Um in the beginning, I mean i've been with this group three times, uh early A lot of their ranks were made up of pkk fighters because they were very uh new force and being trained After sinjar the city itself was liberated uh from isis by These fighters as well as peshmerga working together um A lot of those pkk commanders left to go on to fight inside turkey and elsewhere Uh leaving yebisha with some commanders, but basically at that point they were self-sustainable If I could estimate myself, I would say 70 to 70 to 80 percent of yebisha are local Yazidis that are refugees and survivors of the genocide The rest are sort of hardcore Guerrilla fighters with a lot of experience, uh organizing them So that's the situation today and uh, as you saw there's a lot of tension between this local yazidi force and uh The peshmerga who are politically oriented to the kdp iraqi kurdistan party So that's sort of uh everything that happened up until this moment well It's sort of a side issue, but I kind of think it's worth bringing up there that When obama said well, we have to start the war so we can go save the yazidis That they were already saved as you're saying the pkk had already come and you know through this corridor and rescued the bulk of them and then I think maybe this is confirmation bias run amok, but I don't think it is that even Barbara star at cnn said well geez when the special operations forces got there the few Yazidis that were left on mount sinjar at that moment waved them off and said everything's cool here We're fine.
Everybody who wanted to leave has already left And it's okay and this was the start of the war This was the weapons of mass destruction for iraq war three was a genocide that had already been thwarted Well, it's true that there was a huge humanitarian problem still at that time there was still a lot of uh missing families on the mountain and It is true that these sort of ragtag startup forces, uh Needed help but as you know yourself scott when you get involved in war to beat the drum of war You always choose one military purpose and one humanitarian purpose and when obama entered the war I believe that he used sinjar mountain as a humanitarian purpose because americans could connect with some of the christians or yazidis or Minorities and things like that But I I would say that the situation was grave at that time, even though a lot of them had uh safely settled inside syria Those front lines were still very unknown and even uh where they were settled at that time was very unstable Yeah Well, yeah, you're right though that a few men women and children hole up on mount sinjar is a lot better pr story Then well exxon has interests in erbil and we got to make sure that they don't get that far east That was the real question that they were isis Yes, you're right at that time isis was at the gates of erbil and um That's when the the airstrikes started happening as well So you can uh choose whatever theory you like But I I think the answer is a combination of many things happening all at the same time Yeah, one reason one excuse i'm with you Exactly.
All right now.
So here's the big news.
The big news is Erdogan the dictator of turkey the new sultan of the ottoman empire, uh He's uh, you know not to characterize an american possibly soon enemy too harshly, but uh seems like he's just run amok and right now he uh Even right now, but yesterday he was bombing uh, who all now the the ypg and the ybs both and was he doing it with um the coordination with the americans or over the americans dead bodies because I thought that Our delta force guys are embedded in our marines our marsok and all these guys are embedded with the ypg right now Are the turks risking bombing american soldiers or what is going on over there?
Yes, they are.
It's a it's a serious escalation Um, they did uh the other night around 2 a.m.
They did a number of strikes um Maybe i'll describe what actually happened first and then I can give you my analysis of why But uh, you're right they did strike maybe uh Six miles five six miles away from an american position.
Um in syria, uh, as you mentioned But basically around 2 a.m.
Uh, the turkish airplanes, uh entered that airspace they did strikes on Uh derrick, which is a kurdish town in syria And at the same time they also did strikes on uh, yebisha ybs positions in sinjar mountain They also killed some peshmerga fighters, which is being described as an accident because it's true that their target was the pkk aligned ybs Uh, i'm saying yebisha because it's like just the kurdish pronunciation but to make things easier.
Let's just say ybs Um, they did these strikes actually at the same time uh The coalition is saying, uh, actually I was Checking some of their reports just before I hopped on this call with you.
They're saying that actually Uh, the turks violated their agreement and they did not have proper warning um, and they seem pretty pissed off about it and rightly so but this whole dealing between you know, the syrian kurds, uh, The fighters on sinjar mountain is a very contentious issue with turkey and the americans have sort of had to play this This balancing act because it's true that there are links to pkk inside of these groups, which is turkey's number one enemy So although they're the coalition's, uh, most valuable partner in the fight against isis as well as many other Ideological reasons that are in tune with the u.s.
Policy.
Let's say which is turned against Uh radical jihadists recently You know They they're playing this very dangerous balancing act where the americans are saying that there's no links to these fighters and it's very obvious there is um, they're not the same group, but Nobody really understands What I like to describe the kurdish hive mind Where they just automatically write off these ybs fighters, which are local yazidis from the region turkey can say Ah, these are just pkk.
These are terrorists america.
You list these guys as terrorists, too.
Why do you have a problem when we strike them?
Like many things in this war.
The reality is way more complicated and way more, uh gray So what I believe turkey did was it's it's it's interesting to see what they actually hit So on the top of sinjar mountain, there's a radio tower.
Uh, which is uh, also a ybs base and uh shared with pkk And they took out that radio tower, which i'm pretty sure is not just broadcasting Music and local news.
It's probably being used as some sort of communications network as well And in derrick, they also struck that tower, which is nearby the media center Actually a friend of mine who's a local there told me that uh, he believes the turks may have killed The ypg's entire uh media department, which is very troubling So they're taking out communications on both the syrian side and the iraqi side of this guerrilla movement Let's say So what I think the turks are actually doing is they're forcing the americans into a corner where they say Okay, america, you told us that there's no pkk connections to your champions sdf So when we strike both of them at the same time, what are you going to do?
Are you going to make a press report that says?
Uh, we're against the strikes in syria, but then say nothing against iraq.
Are you going to make a statement saying both are wrong?
How far are you invested in with this group america?
I think that's what the turks are trying to prod and push I guess i'm confused in a little bit.
So you're saying okay to the to the dod The the idea that the sdf is the ypg is deniable somehow They're saying that no we're not and the ypg again, I guess i'm oversimplifying but mostly that means the syrian branch of the pkk in turkey that erdogan's real enemies that he hates the most of all but you're saying that when the dod renamed the ypg the sdf that that means that Then they're trying to claim to the turks that yeah, there's no pkk here.
There's no ypg here These are just the sdf the democratic forces.
Uh, is that right or i'm misunderstanding?
Uh, no, so, okay, let's uh, Sort of but not really.
Oh, okay.
So Sdf because that doesn't sound very deniable to me.
I thought everybody knew the ypg is the pkk is the sdf no No, no, no.
No.
Okay.
So syrian democratic forces sdf You're right that it's a beautiful branding exercise It's the word that americans would love to use as their partners sdf syrian democratic forces.
Ooh now it's not denied by them that ypg is uh, let's say the most uh, The largest force inside sdf as well as the best fighters or most trained fighters So that's that's that's well known ypg is a kurdish militia But you have to understand there's also thousands of arabs inside ypg.
It's not a sectarian movement It's just a militia that started with kurds sdf that umbrella also, it involves a lot of uh, free syrian army groups if you can believe it, but not These are more groups who fled their areas away from the extremists and ended up linking up with kurds and some Offensive so those groups are also under the sdf umbrella As well as nowadays when sdf takes a region and they can recruit from that population Those arab fighters or those local fighters whoever town they take join sdf So ypg is is a large force inside sdf, but there's no Denying that ypg is a way is a group within sdf.
What is denied?is a history of guerrilla fighters Leaving uh, kandil mountains and going to syria to help train these local forces to create ypg So I don't agree with the simple rhetoric That ypg is just the syrian branch of the pkk to say that is uh Just really oversimplifying a very complex matter You could say it just you know for ease of words on the page and that's what most journalists do But the reality of the of the situation is this more like kurdish hive mind there's a lot of people That study the theories of the pkk's founder that are not pkk members Or they even have training in kandil mountains, but it doesn't mean they're guerrilla fighters So when the syrian army retreated in 2011 Not only did individual guerrilla fighters either return to syria because they were syrian kurds to begin with But also politicians went over to that side who were formerly let's say wanted by the syrian regime So those people organize those local syrian kurds and local fighters Into the ypg Using their training from pkk, but does kandil mountain leadership pkk?
You know call ypg and do they say like we want you to take raqqa?
No in that regard.
They're they're different organizations But Are there no links between pkk and ypg I actually don't believe that it's helpful helpful for anyone for the coalition to say stuff like that because They're gonna have to admit at some point that many of these commanders many of these fighters are originally from pkk movement And it doesn't help anyone to even have that group.
Uh, You know untouchable Because certain things start to pop up so for example, uh brett mcgurk meets brett brett mcgurk is the envoy to the president for The coalition against isis.
Okay.
He meets with some ypg leaders Then some turkish publications go crazy and they say oh my god.
Look ypg.
They're pkk.
Look who he's meeting Here's the same guy in a pkk uniform And actually that doesn't help anybody's effort because they're hiding What is known to most analysts and very very obvious But it's just sort of it's very very complicated.
It's like saying Uh fsa groups are the same as al-qaeda not to make a ideological connection between these two groups that are listed as terrorist groups by any means, but it's just sort of like I guess if you have you know, five words on on a page, but the reality Uh lies within hearts and minds of people which as you know is really really complicated Hey, i'll scott horton here for wallstreetwindow.com.
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Roused in the islamic state out of raqqa and go ahead and give their nato ally turkey cart blanche to I don't know wipe them out But at least try to go ahead and attack them because it seems like erdogan wants to pick this fight yes, so these these orders you could say now that erdogan has been empowered through the Referendum process which you know as we know is uh gotta be false or uh skewed in some way The you could say that these orders now these attacks are coming directly from erdogan because you know There's nobody in turkey now that has supreme power such as the you know As you said the sultan of the new ottoman empire does So I think what he's doing is he's making these strikes on these two forces that america tries to separate And he's putting his ear to the ground and he's seeing how much america is invested in these forces, you know How much do they want to gamble their relationship with turkey?on this Kurdish-led militia, so he'll do these strikes.
It's a very bold move like nothing like this has ever been done before um And he'll put his ear to the ground and sort of see what the outrage is He wants to see the coalition how far they speak and that's going to determine uh to calculate his next moves um so if you remember there was a turkish incursion called euphrates shield into syria and uh, they had started to Not just attack isis.
Let's say but the real offensive was aimed at sdf Now this mobilized the americans to put strikers and their forces to make a temporary border That was I think, you know phase one where america said, okay, we're very invested in these fighters These are our number one partners to get isis out of raqqa We're gonna challenge you and go a step further.
These airstrikes are one more escalation on that erdogan saying, okay Let's bluff here.
How much do you how much further do you want to go with this?
So that's sort of the the very dangerous game that is being played ybs seems like not a big deal They seem okay.
It's a small yazidi militia.
They are holding, you know, very important front lines against isis You know in yazidi areas, it's very dangerous to strike them right now But they seem let's say in the big grand of game of chess that's being played between global powers they might seem unimportant, but they're not because These fighters everyone's paying attention to what's going on including sdf There is a unit of ybs that fought alongside sdf in the manbij operation.
All these people know one another So when turkey does these attacks?
And sdf sees that america is not doing anything.
They say to themselves, you know, why would we?
Continue to fight on behalf of america when they allow their partner To attack us and backstab us at this time.
They haven't halted their operations for raqqa but i'm sure that those conversations if you were a fly on on the wall between The coalition and sdf leaders right now is probably very very heated So because in other words because this is our infantry to take raqqa It's white officers with these guys are the soldiers and they could just choose not to That's way outside of their territory to go and roust the islamic state out of raqqa, right?
Yeah, it's like, you know, why would we sacrifice?
You know our forces lives for this operation in raqqa if we don't benefit from it number one Why why would they do that?
They would not and number two ybs are our friends.
They're like, uh, You know our counterparts inside sinjar mountain if you allow turkey to openly strike them What's going to happen when isis has gone from raqqa?
Are you going to turn our backs on us then?
So like like like like I said, it seems like a small unimportant force but it's not because everyone's paying attention and I think that's why turkey actually did this strike because it's something it can get away with because it says oh These forces are just pkk They just give them this label and you know, all the turkish publications say oh but pkk is a terrorist group blah blah blah Look, it's okay that that we uh strike them and it makes the americans not want to come right out and say yes They are pkk, but we like them For whatever too, you know of course, I mean the the very idea the reason why Groups are designated as a terrorist group in the first place Is is to put pressure on them to reform their activities so they can get the label off pkk has done this many times with ceasefires and the label has not been taken off and then One side violates a ceasefire whether it's pkk or turkey the violence starts once again You know a total show happens and then things quiet down once again But this label is one that is, you know nearly next to impossible to peel off and it's just You know to to get rid of a nato a huge nato ally like turkey in place of a small Militia like ybs is you know, obviously not worth it on the grand geopolitical scale But if you think of turkish regime And erdogan and how he's just sort of been on the side of the jihadists this entire war it's like is this an actual american ally or not that's sort of probably being debated inside the Inside washington now.
It's like, you know, how far can we actually push the turks?
How much are they bluffing with this?
And how does this affect their national security after isis when you have all these, you know, kurdish ambitions being fulfilled Uh just across the border from turkey.
How does this affect the kurdish population inside turkey?
Will they be inspired to uprise themselves?well you know something that always surprised me was um, And I guess I don't know the exact chronology here of when erdogan and baghdadi decided to stop being friends Uh, do you know that history?
Uh, because you know, it was clear for a long time.
In fact, uh, Phil giraldi the former cia officer talked about going to turkey.
This would have been in 2012 or maybe 13, I guess and There are guys raising money for the islamic state right there on the street in ankar.
I think he said uh, it was just no secret about it that Uh, well, we knew for years and years and years that jihadists wanting to go fight in syria They go to turkey and then they cross the border in from there and that Erdogan was allowing this patrick coburn, of course reported this for years as well So yes, but then at some point there were some isis attacks inside turkey and at some point too um The turkish government has attacked the islamic state But then I wonder it sounds like erdogan liked to be able to turn these guys on and off and maybe you know Like you're saying yesterday and even right now he's taken their side at least objectively speaking when he's bombing these ybs forces Yeah, it's sort of it's sort of like, you know, the classic the enemy of my enemy is my friend So the reason why not just isis but a lot of these jihadist groups inside syria The reason why they were given support both by let's say individuals in turkey as well as uh, The turkish government itself and individuals rich individuals doing financial jihad from the gulf as well as Intelligence apparatus from the gulf the reason why they threw their lot in with these groups Uh early in the war such as isis is because how effective they were at doing their dirty work for them So isis does two things on turkey's behalf really well number one Uh, it was a force that was fighting the syrian regime very well.
That's a goal of turkey, but more importantly uh isis was fighting, uh kurds and crushing kurdish ambitions very well, so for turkey it makes sense to funnel arms intelligence Supplies money to a group such as uh islamic state because it's doing their work for them And they don't have to get their army involved now when When did it become?
A fire that burnt their own hand Well, there are some recent reports about islamic state networks inside turkey that didn't even scratch on al-qaeda networks inside turkey Which is probably way way way more vast than isis But there's been arrests in pretty much every single province inside turkey So now this fire that they've created uh created um Has kind of come back to burn them.
So when did that actually happen?
Well, as you know isis has sort of become america's big bad boogeyman inside Uh syria, of course, it's a it's a threat to locals who live there You know, but is isis a threat that's gonna you know come and take and destabilize america not really unless it's through terrorism Uh, and even that is just an overreaction of uh people to small scale unimpressive attacks at this time So when did it become?
When did turkey stop supporting isis is just when it became literally publicly impossible to do so so Um I believe Turkey probably still has some back channels with isis and it's sort of uh, you know realpolitik We give you this you give us this you give us this we give you this that happens a lot inside syria But I think when it really came down to it was when turkey actually entered The turkish army entered jarrah bless as the euphrates shield campaign Because as you know, those two kurdish cantons were getting close to connecting with one another And at that time turkey says okay, it's time To enter syria and drive a wedge between these two kurdish factions and to do so they actually had to fight isis in el bob So I think that's when the relationship turned sour and as you pointed out There was a lot of isis terrorist attacks inside turkey.
I believe that those were probably some You know backstabbing going on but is there actual, you know, credible evidence to say exactly what happened?
No But there's a lot of sort of weird Evidence of uh, you know weapons being smuggled being stopped by the gender army on the border and you know All this kind of like weird weird stuff.
Let me ask you this I look at erdogan's foreign policy and I wonder did he go to harvard or georgetown?
Because I don't know but he sure seemed to be digging some pits for his country to fall in It's very sad because I don't believe the turkish regime matches the ambitions of the of the turkish people I have a lot of turkish friends here inside New york even and they're very very concerned for the future of their country as they should be I mean erdogan started off as a very good leader It should be known that he he totally reformed the economy of the country When he ran he actually ran on a platform of making peace with pkk if you can believe it but you know, they say power corrupts people and Because there's so many turkish nationalists inside the country Picking a fight with with the kurds and making a state of emergency certainly boosted his power Uh to unbelievable levels, so that's probably what happened what was happening I myself was hoping and it was a very shred of hope maybe I knew it wasn't going to happen But I was hoping that if he did somehow get power in the referendum He wouldn't have to appease this nationalist component of turks anymore And he could go around their backs and then start to talk to the pkk for peace process again, because it wouldn't be supported by that nationalist element inside turkey, but I think erdogan is sort of clever enough to know that he has to do that to keep the country together But it doesn't really seem like that's happening now with these uh new strikes just the other day Yeah, that's that obama theory of power Yeah, once he gets once he gets the total power, then he'll mellow out and yeah, no, that's probably usually not how it goes well, I was hoping this because I see what you mean though that he would have the autonomy to do so but Yeah If you if you overlay a map of the poorest regions inside turkey and you overlay a map on top of that Of Kurdistan inside turkey they're one in the same in this region You know these people have been oppressed for so long that it's it's not surprising that an armed movement such as pkk has uh risen To such a powerful level and if erdogan wants to truly undermine pkk He needs to look at it in the same way of a goal of a charity where charities say when we go bankrupt when we go out of business, it means that uh Our purpose has been resolved like we fixed the actual problems We started our charities for so if erdogan could find the way to reform those kurdish areas and actually give people their rights They wouldn't have a need for pkk But it's a dangerous game because he uses this To gain power and nationalistic fervor.
I mean these wars have a lot of local support But it just gets down to the point.
It's like, you know How much does he want to destroy his own country because the kurds are huge population inside turkey So at that point it becomes very very dangerous A very very dangerous game that he's playing.
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Just click the amazon logo on the right side of the page at scott wharton.org or go to scott wharton.org Amazon and I think we talked about this last time that after a horrible war.
This is one of the the least reported stories of the 1990s was bill clinton's help for the turkish regime and their War against the kurds back then and after this and I don't know how long that lasted and how many people died It's just hardly reported at all But uh when all that was over it ended they had a peace deal and everybody was getting along and it was only Summer before last wasn't it when erdogan decided to pick a fight with the pkk because that would undermine support for the Much more moderate standing for election political faction of kurds that they're part of a coalition.
I guess with other turks that Were preventing him from having a super majority in the parliament Yes, the political situation inside turkey right now resembles the exact era That pkk took up arms in 1984 against the turkish government So at that time All the political figures that represented kurdish rights were imprisoned So you can fast forward to the modern day time and all the leaders of hdp which is a Let's say a leftist party that champions kurdish rights Founded by kurds all those leaders are actually in jail at this time, too So there's some you know, very eerie similarities and you had mentioned, uh, erdogan uh using jihadist and islamist movements, uh to fulfill his own goals inside syria For kurds, this is actually not a new thing because even in that time frame that you just mentioned uh, the turkish government was also helping Jihadist kurdish parties like huda par and these kind of groups to actually fight pkk on turkish soil itself.
So in kobani battle, for example, uh The famous battle of kobani in which uh ypg and ypg famously defeated isis for the first time They realized that a lot of the isis fighters that they were killing in the initial waves were actually kurds uh from turkey kurdish isis members and those Probably had a connection to some of those radical parties that were sponsored by the by the turkish government.
So when When you get on the ground and you see things from the kurdish perspective all these kind of conspiracy theories, you know weirdly start to make sense because from their own perspective they think look These nation state powers they're trying to eradicate us They're trying to steal our history and wipe us off the face of the earth when you compare You know past events with kurds and modern day events with uh, yazidi genocide You know all those conspiracy theories definitely resonate and it forces people to take up arms and fight those groups And when you talk to them and they're fighting isis or the turkish military to them is very little difference, right?
Well, I mean and that's the whole thing right is the islamic state and the iraq war too and all that aside You have this tragic situation with this region of kurdistan That has always been politically divided as you ticked them off before they're divided by five or Four or five different nation states six nation states right now If you want to throw in parts of armenia and azerbaijan and all that up there that's part of that is claimed kurdistan as well that you know There's not even any series of wars that could end up leading to an independent kurdistan even ever I mean, here's just this landlocked territory Um divided up by powers that'll never relinquish it not the iranians not the syrians the iraqi shia army I don't know if they could really do anything about it, but they would fight if Autonomous northern iraqi kurdistan tried to really secede and break off and form a separate nation state And take kirkuk with them and all of that.
There'd be another war right?
I mean, you know what I mean?
It's just the worst kind of tragedy even without even if you just took the early 21st century You know everything george bush caused and all that out of the equation And still it's basically an unsolvable dilemma Yeah, and politically, you know Kurds are divided themselves.
Like you mentioned the iraqi kurds that are have ambitions for statehood.
Um, the pkk ideology would actually criticize them and say that you are a puppet of turkey because Economically, you're dependent on these oil deals As well as economic trade with the turks you're going about Autonomy or statehood the wrong way Because you're just doing Uh as kurds have always done in history and being used by a larger power Um, and it's not the real freedom that would be their criticism of what the iraqi kurds were doing what the iraqi kurds criticism Would be of the pkk movement is like, you know, you guys have really really large Wacky goals and they're never going to become true because you know, what is libertarian socialism?
This is uh, Not ever going to work in modern day era.
You guys have your heads in the clouds.
So that's sort of the reality of the ground between between kurds, but um As I mentioned in those strikes in sinjar Uh Some of the peshmerga bases that were right beside ybs bases.
Some of them actually died as a In those same strikes.
So these forces as individuals these fighters, they're just you know, all yazidis all kurds all these Disputes are happening more at the political level.
I even saw myself in sinjar mountain Uh peshmerga and guerrillas, you know sharing trenches together sharing weapons fighting isis It's just when this group is gone if they're the glue that holds everything together.
That's when the infighting starts right Yeah, where's the health of the local militia?
Um, yes.
Yes, exactly.
All right, so, uh Well a couple things Yeah, no forget the politics.
Tell me more about your time in raqqa How long were you there and what all did you see and were you slinking around?
You know under the nose of islamic state cops or what the hell was that about?
No, I wasn't in raqqa the city I was with the sdf on their offensive, uh, just on that moving he didn't sneak in Yeah, right not in a million years, uh There's been some brave journalists that were in the raqqa before the islamic state took control of it And there's some interesting, uh stuff when when the rebels threw the regime out, but me myself The closest I got was a town called telsamun which is still on the front line And uh, basically what the scf is doing if they're not stopped by turkey Is they're fighting in the countryside seeking to surround the city so that they can become the dominant force Uh to take the city, of course, they have an interest A political interest of getting rid of isis because you know raqqa is their main capital.
It's where they're Planning attacks from there can be no peace in the region with isis as a neighbor.
However at the same time The sdf's interest also has to be in the amount of weapons that they can amass from this offensive I mean, let's just be honest here because they're gonna have to defend the autonomy That they've managed to capture at this point from the barrel of the gun from turkey From future syrian regime from any group, you know, they're in a sea of enemies right now So participating in the raqqa offensive, although it's going to be a bloodbath These guys up until this point have just had so much success with coalition airstrikes, but just light arms and basically no weapons so the amount of supplies they can get from A military offensive like that would indeed help them protect What autonomy they can keep post post isis post war?
So that's what I think the the actual interest is it doesn't mean that the individual fighters themselves don't care about raqqa people Of course they do Including arabs that are in sdf that are from raqqa that are literally fighting to go home such as the group Uh liwa shahood al-raqqa, which I was with on the front line themselves so Again, it's it's interesting to see if this will be the force that actually takes raqqa I believe so you had mentioned is america gonna backstab sdf after isis is finished I originally thought so I think that's what most people think will happen But at the same time if you look at american bases being built inside syria They are investing a lot of money in a lot of cement on huge runways You know a lot of weapons and it's sort of like is this you know all staging for the raqqa offensive or Are you looking to have permanent bases here?
Americans have always looked for a political party inside syria to support Way before the war they've been wanting to undermine the regime and have a lever.
So will rojava become that?
Is the question that I think will be answered, uh after raqqa is finished Mm-hmm Man, what a mess.
Uh, is there a list anywhere of the different armies?
I was trying to count them.
Sometimes I count 10.
Sometimes I count 13 or 14 different sides fighting in this war, uh, i'd like to find the master list and Back in who and I don't even i'm not even counting necessarily all the funders from the gulf and all that but you know, it just it just depends what what day you're looking that up because I've i've wrote this in my blog, but after six years of war all these groups have sort of started to Absorb one another and only the most ideologically strong groups have managed to thrive that includes sdf It also includes isis.
Of course, they couldn't be more different, but these are very strong ideologies that have absorbed You know some more fragmented, uh rebel factions and groups to their cause so I think we're seeing a very big sorting out of all these forces that sort of had the same goals in the beginning and six years later could any of those protesters in 2011 could they have Anticipated a group like sdf or a group like isis being the dominant players now I don't think so for us who've studied Um kurdish side of the war since the beginning It was always a very fringe sort of thing to look at because the real war of course was between rebels and the asad regime Nowadays over here on this show.
We knew from the beginning.
This is just al-qaeda in iraq is back.
That's all Well, I think it's go Yeah, I mean they're they're definitely the most strongest player among the rebels And there are other fsa groups that are thrown in the mix and they're just so powerless They have to be silent.
So for example when those Al-qaeda fighters nusra fighters or are al-sham and rebels when they do an offensive for a place like idlib Okay Some analysts can argue look at the rate of tow missiles of heavy weapons being fired by nusra It's very low.
Look all the groups america's support.
Look they kept the weapons But if you look at that offensive who took authority of idlib After that offensive was done, of course It was the jihadis because the other groups are so small and powerless al-nusra will say okay use your moderate finger To fire the trigger and i'll take authority of the of the place afterwards So this is the reality in inside syria.
There are fsa groups, but that you know Are what would maybe be described as moderate but they are so small and so powerless that at this point They're never going to be able to become america's champion inside syria and by the way Most of the moderate fsa groups they ran away from that infighting when al-nusra disrupted those groups And a lot of them joined sdf So the guys from raqqa when you say a lot of them how many?
Ah never trust any figures that are giving you to you by hundreds or thousands thousands so for so for so for example This is a this is the classic story of some of the let's say some of the arab groups that are in sdf They worked alongside nusra And later alongside isis to throw the regime out of a city such as raqqa they even had Like a group like liwa throughout raqqa even used the isis flag Then they realized that these groups were al-qaeda there was infighting and by one way or another they would be pressured out to the countryside Near anisa and slowly have to retreat retreat till they're pushed Into kurdish areas and fight alongside ypg against these extremists So a lot of those fsa guys that are from hazem movement and blah blah blah Whether their units moved or just as individuals like run literally running away uh from the extremists who they describe as like Sons of syria fighting sons of syria.
I didn't want to participate in this They all settled where it was safe Um, so that's why you find many of those fighters among sdf now now it is certainly a way smaller component than ypg but They are among them and I have spent time with those guys and um, They have probably some of the most interesting stories of any group in the war Well now how many of those oh go ahead Oh, I was going to say like one of the classic things that they'll do is they'll point to the wounds that they have From the regime and they'll point to the wounds that they have from isis And uh, yeah, they they have very interesting stories like they were inside Aleppo Fighting the regime one commander told me like they were approached by turkish intelligence Turk said we'll give you this many weapons This many weapons, but a certain percent have to be fired toward ypg And they're like this.
I don't want to be involved and uh, they eventually dissolve or join another group or fade away and Uh get absorbed into some other structure.
That's that that's the reality unfortunately well, you know, I think uh You know, there's at least an article or maybe a political cartoon or something In the fact of al-qaeda changing their name all the time from you know al-qaeda in iraq to the islamic state of iraq the al-nusra front and then of course isis broke off again and then but then there are the Fatah this and that now they're the terror the other thing and I guess they're going to change it again next week And they just figure It's not quite working yet But if they just keep changing the name at some point people will lose track and forget that they still are sworn loyal to Ayman al-zawahiri the butcher of new york city Yes, I would say You're 100 correct They love rebranding exercises.
There's probably some guy in qatar with a pie chart explaining how to rebrand themselves And at the end of the day that is the most dominant rebel faction And at this point in the war any assistance that goes to that side is of course Um going to help the al-nusra front originally in whatever acronym they want to give themselves All right.
Listen, man.
I'm sorry.
I'm out of time.
I got an interview postal about this gas attack now Uh, see how that goes, uh, but I sure appreciate you coming on and talking about all this great stuff with us joey Yeah, it's it's uh, it's my pleasure scott.
Uh, thank you for having me on the program.
Good deal All right, y'all that is joey lawrence joey l The photographer check him out at joey l.com a lot of great work there and a great blog And there's a movie and another one coming about his time hanging out with the syrian kurds there So check out all his great stuff there joey l.com.
That's the scott horton show Check out the full archive at scotthorton.org and at libertarianinstitute.org Slash scott horton show and follow me on twitter at scott horton show.
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