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All right introducing our friend Phil Giraldi.
He used to be a CIA officer And now he writes well, first of all, he's the executive editor Executive director of the Council for the National Interest.
That's the America first Lobby the real America first Lobby in Washington DC and He of course writes for uns calm and for the American conservative magazine at the American conservative Calm welcome back to the show Phil.
How's it going?
I'm doing all right.
Appreciate you joining us today.
And hey, you know, I read a lot of things all the time And I really appreciate the fact that you've been writing about this Russia stuff and the way you have been I think I even have a List of recent articles here at the American conservative magazine Russia Gates unasked questions is the latest that's today's Yeah Yeah Before that exposing shabby intelligence a soft coup or preserving our democracy did Sessions do anything wrong?
Is there more to the Flynn story more about Russia and less about Flynn?
All right, so All of these on the what exactly do we know compared to what sort of half-baked assertions are being made?
I like the way you end today's Article you talk all about what is proven and or not proven and at the end you say well I still believe this anyway seems like to me kind of thing after discrediting the assertions backing it That is specifically the DNC hack their reference to that But anyway, you really do a great job of breaking this down and taking us through the weeds and all of that crap in explaining What's what so?
Would you do that out loud a little bit here?
Maybe beginning with the DNC hack and the Podesta hack and and the accusations Maybe we sort of take it in chronological order from last summer there.
Yeah.
Well, I you know, it's actually as you say I mean it then what we know is kind of simple.
We know that somehow the information that was on the DNC server or somewhere in the system as well as the the emails of John Podesta, of course who was Hillary's campaign a campaign manager somehow those emails and that information Was taken off of the computers and it wound up at WikiLeaks.
We know that happened and We also know that somebody in the US government has been leaking Transcripts of phone conversations have very highly sensitive information to the media so I would say closer probably the only two things that we know and Everything else is kind of speculative as as I know.
I think the last time you and I talked we were commenting about how How this process is grinding on and yet they never seem to be able to produce any corroboration or any any what we would regard you and I certainly would regard as hard evidence of Any of the numerous claims that are being made right now.
Yeah well, so if we if we start with the hack of the DNC Well, don't even call it a hack because right some people believe it was a leak Yeah, when it comes to the publication of the DNC emails And WikiLeaks now WikiLeaks denies and this is something we talked about before WikiLeaks denies They got it from the Russians.
You've written about how well they might not even know They got it from the Russians, you know, the the FSB certainly knows how to use a cutout if it comes to them Wanting to or needing to use one But on the other hand Craig Murray has said on the show that he's met with the leaker of the DNC Stuff and not that he received the leak himself as the Daily Mail reported.
They screwed that up but That's what he told me and then it was Ray McGovern later Clarified that the Daily Mail report that he said that he actually received the leak himself.
That was just Daily Mail style You know embellishment there, but he was saying he did meet the leaker in the woods outside of DC And in fact Gareth told me I think I can say this Gareth told me he was at a dinner that night and Craig Murray was there and Craig Murray said I gotta go guys I got a big meeting I gotta attend or something and that was supposedly when he left to go have this meeting in the woods So that's at least you know, I don't know Some kind of reasonable doubt that as you said that this is even a hack at all And in fact, of course when you think back to what was going on last year with the way Hillary and her people were completely Screwing Bernie Sanders in his it makes perfect sense to think that someone inside the DNC might have motive to expose them for what they Were doing cheating in the debates and all these other things Yeah, well, you know, I was at that meeting to where Craig Murray disappeared Although I didn't hear his his fateful words as he departed But the the fact is I you know The original account from him that I saw was that he did not meet the leaker.
He met an associate of the leaker and Well, I may be screwing up and oversimplifying it too I should I should I should be careful about that because I may be oversimplifying the way Well, I might be I might be I might have read the Daily Mail account, you know but that was my impression that he met an associate somebody who plausibly represented himself as an associate of a leaker and But you know Craig Murray has no way of checking people out.
He's a retired British diplomat How does he know who he met and what the reality of that person was You and I have talked before about false flag operations.
And if I were running a really really sophisticated Operation Intending to cause major disruption In the American political system, there are all kinds of possibilities that one might be considering.
So I'm not I'm not sold on The the Murray account because the Murray wanted Murray wanted to believe what he wanted to believe and I I would like to know more about who the guy was.
Why what were his bona fides?
What was his connection?
What did he claim to have done and and exactly how did he get the information to WikiLeaks if he's claiming?
That's what he did, you know, so again What I'm saying is we still have a lot of Suppositions about what took place that we can't confirm and And that's what's that's what's so mind-boggling about this whole exercise because it's it's turning into a pure political catfight Which has almost nothing to do with the facts Now so tell me about this whole fancy bear cozy bear this and that because some I mean It seems to go without saying that well, yeah, everybody knows that that's the Russians But then we find out that you know a PT.
I don't know if you're supposed to say apartment 28 or 29 and But anyway that these groups of fancy bear this and apartment 28 that these are all Categories and assignments made by Western observers, right?
You know, this is not the name of a gang in in Russia somewhere where they call themselves a PT 28 So but then so it seems like the assertion is well, look we know that this is FSB or we know that this is GRU I guess in the case of fancy bear if I have that, right?
We know this is GRU because we know that this is already GRU because of the time before that we knew that it was GRU which is based on experience of knowing that they are the GRU from before and that whenever they use this kind of malware kind of thing then that means it was the GRU But then, you know Jeffrey Carr the the computer security expert He poured cold water all over this last year and this just seems to keep happening Where I guess now what's happening really is his point of view is finally getting more of a fair hearing that hey, man What's the malware is out there anyone can use it and just because somebody writes in Cyrillic in their weird code if anything That would seem to indicate a frame of job more than a big mistake on the part of GRU hacker Probably, you know, in other words, there's just as much reason to doubt this entire narrative of The Russians being behind this as there is Craig Murray being the dupe of the Russians somehow Sure, and indeed as I noted in my article that came out today There's been more cold water poured on that theory by the Ukrainians themselves who are certainly no friends of the Russians But they said that that they never detected any of this alleged malware and the incident that allegedly was connected to it never occurred So this is the Ukrainian government Itself denying that this is plausible.
So it's you know, it's again.
It's like you it's easy to believe It's easy to get led down the road on this kind of business because if you make an assumption In the beginning that it wasn't the Russians No was a leaker or you go the other way you say yes It definitely was the Russians then you're going to find things that will justify your point of view But what I'm saying to you and I know you're you're savvy about these issues because we've talked about them before is let's see the hard evidence and I just don't I don't have a comfort level on any of this stuff the What we're hearing is stuff that could be easily manufactured by a sophisticated intelligence organization they could have contrived all this stuff and indeed if you were considering that the this might be viewed as a highly sensitive operation, they would have done that and So, you know, my gut feeling is yeah.
Sure.
It was probably the Russians the same way we in the NSA and GCHQ are Constantly probing and pulling in intelligence and stuff like that.
The Russians do the same thing But it doesn't mean that they are intending to overthrow our democracy as the the Democratic Party would seem to insist.
Yeah.
Well, they're in full excuse mode and that's of course the background to all this right is the Democrats need a big excuse for why they lost to Donald freakin Trump of all people Other than the fact that they nominated the single worst person in the whole world outside of the Cheney family.
Anyway and and so yeah, no, it was the Russians and then of course you have the all kinds of interests in the national security state and And the military-industrial complex and everybody who wants to make money selling big-ticket items Submarines and aircraft carriers and long-range bombers and this is some forget this stupid terror wars We got the Russians as an enemy again.
We're back in business So there's a huge agenda to push all these narratives for it.
Anyway, plus I guess it makes good TV As far as all that but you know as far as you saying give me the hard evidence I think Jeffrey Carr's message to all of us is you're never gonna get it because there's no such thing You know, you can never really can trace these things back and prove you can You can assess with medium confidence.
And in fact, that's an important point.
You mentioned about the Ukrainian thing there.
This is where Crowdstrike this private intelligence You know Tied in with the state here, of course where they said yeah the same GRU who did the hack of the DNC and or Podesta They're the same ones who put this malware on to the Ukrainian rebels Under the Ukrainian government's phone so that the Ukrainian rebels could Target their artillery and and look at what a great job they did by Targeting and destroying all this Ukrainian artillery and then that was the part you're saying that the Ukrainian government poured cold water on which was Yeah, no, we didn't lose all those artillery pieces.
What are you talking about?
We moved them from here to there a year before you claim This happened this kind of thing where they completely debunked it and then this is in voice of America of all places, right?
We're they completely debunked this story And then so that was where Crowdstrike said they went from medium confidence to high confidence And then do I really have it right that the FBI and everyone else involved has said that well You know, we just asked Crowdstrike and we didn't even do our own investigation, but they know what they're doing That's exactly right.
The FBI was given no access to to the servers and they were given the assessment by Crowdstrike I mean, this is a this is as ridiculous a a high-level investigation as you can possibly imagine The company that has a vested interest in a certain result coming out is the one that did the investigation I mean, this is crazy.
Yeah, well and half of their entire package of assertions here just completely exploded So yeah so much for the rest of what they claim It seems like to me better find another source than them if they're gonna be that sloppy in effect as you write in the article About the British think-tank that helped debunk this too They were asked and they said well we never heard from these guys They never asked us if they were look if they were interpreting our data, right that they use this think-tanks data You know and twisted it basically to fit their assessment So that's pretty scandalous as far as that goes certainly if it was the Russians making up these lies about us That would be a story Sure.
Sure.
I you know, I think I think probably the ultimate where we're going to go with this is we're never going to discover Who actually the ultimate?
Motivator of these hacks or leaks Was or were all that this is going to remain kind of muddy because any vested interest Involved in this will have done its best to destroy the trail or or can absolutely conceal who they are and so that's one thing and then of course the other thing is the act the actual leak of the The telephone transcripts now, we know that took place We know this was material that was in the hands of a very tight circle of senior u.s.intelligence officials and that information leak But I would I would bet dollars to donuts the the guys who did this were savvy enough to make sure they didn't leave a trail So, you know, we're gonna have a lot of speculation.
This is going to drag on forever and At the end of the day Nobody will really know what will happen and the only the only parties that will suffer from this should be the American public which has To put up with this crap.
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That's wr.
Why guys calm?
Mm-hmm.
All right now, so if I understand this thing, right with the well, let me let me break this in half And I'm probably wrong about both sides or what but there's some kind of FBI Investigation that was going on because after all they told the New York Times last September Yeah, we looked into it and no we don't see any credible ties between the Trump campaign and the Russians So everybody can breathe easy.
So we know that they were looking at him, right?
But then we also have these accusations that well the thing of it is is as we know from Snowden and really we knew from Benny and from Bamford before that that any Overseas phone call any and all overseas phone calls like when I interviewed Nasser Araby an hour ago That is absolutely intercepted by the NSA and then supposedly I'm masked because I'm a US person But they would have the authority if they wanted to to look into my identity but they certainly know his and then if they want they can I guess go back and listen to whatever those a Call with at least one foreigner on the line So part of what we have with Mike Flynn you could I guess define in a more quote innocent way that well, he's in the Dominican Republic and he makes a phone call to a An Agent of a foreign power the Russian ambassador inside the United States Well, nobody's a protected US person in that case or I guess I guess he's a US person But not protected because he's in the Dominican Republic.
Anyway, he would have had He is protected but that in other words So that still would have been that still would have been picked up by the NSA whether the FBI was Investigating or not whether there was any kind of tap or surveillance of Trump Tower or anything else That would have been just like with the Jane Harman thing where she goes when they're tapping me Well, you were on the phone with an Israeli spy.
That's why they were tapping you They were tapping him and you were on the line lady So that's kind of the same thing here the the Russian ambassadors the agent of the foreign power anybody He's talking to they're going to have that then the question is whether they give it to the Washington Post or not Am I right about that?
Yeah, that's but then that's a separate question from an FBI investigation too, though, right?
Yeah, of course There's a whole bunch of overlapping issues here.
Now.
The one thing Comey admitted was that an investigation of the Trump team and the Russians that started in July and now so that this This was not the material that Nunes later saw that this was on That would that information came from December in January after the election So obviously we're talking about two different investigations and the first one had to be ordered by somebody I mean the FBI would not just go out and and start collecting information on a senior guy in a Presidential campaign.
I mean they wouldn't do it.
So the whole thing raises more questions than it answers really, that's a that's what's curious about this whole business the Clearly they were listening in and Flynn even though he was out of the country is an American citizen so he should have been masked and indeed the evidence seems to be he was masked and That there were very very few people that knew about the whole transcript about who was on the other end and This again suggests high-level collusion in the Obama administration, but again, I'm guessing yeah, I don't know that By the way, and I forget whether we had discussed this But was it your impression that Trump was really hiding behind the excuse that Flynn had misrepresented The finest detail to Pence because Trump wanted to get rid of Flynn anyway well fun was becoming a clearly a loose cannon on deck and So there might have been some desire on the part of some of his his newer people that like he did the generals To get rid of Flynn.
I don't know that for a fact again that speculation and it but it's certainly possible that that this was Considered to be a divorce of convenience for everybody involved.
Yeah Since none of us actually know what Flynn said Two sessions, it's it's again speculation.
That's what's so maddening about this whole thing It's a there been there been there just a couple of things that we know to be true Was the evil Empire we're all criminologists doing our best here That's right, yeah, it's like the Kermit watchers, you know trying to figure out who was wearing which hat when they were standing on the red Right, you know the red Army Day parade exactly.
That's that kind of thing.
You know, it's crazy Well, you know, I think I had read I can't remember what all now the only one I can I think I'd read a few different reports that Trump was getting sick of Flynn Before all this stuff about the phone call with the Russian ambassador even came out and the one that I'm remembering is Where it said that Trump was already really annoyed with him and then he was meeting I guess this would have been during the transition still and he was meeting with May the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and Flynn started talking like it was his job to start talking right now when his job is to stand there and be the butler while The you know actual highest level elected officials are having a conversation and how Trump just Took that really bad, you know, like what are you doing interrupting right now just stand there and shut up You know kind of thing and that that was just part of the we don't really like each other anymore kind of dynamic That was already happening between the two of them sort of seemed like when the Russian ambassador thing came out He was like, all right.
Well now we can go ahead and get rid of this guy He owed him a job for supporting him all that time during the campaign, but nice excuse to come out, you know, yeah Yeah, it's again, you know the question the question becomes, you know You and I can speculate about things all day and we'll come up with with all kinds of interesting theories But the fact is that you know, they a lot of this stuff is it doesn't really rise above speculation Well, my speculation makes a lot more sense than oh my god He's a traitor the former head of the Defense Intelligence Agency is under the control of the Kremlin Yeah, yeah, that's it that's the best the most maybe bizarre aspect of this the people that actually believe that somehow This is a Manchurian candidate situation I there's not a shred of evidence of that and none of these guys would sell out in that fashion I mean, it's just it's it's inconceivable and yet they're playing that that card I mean, they there are a lot of things that you know, they're certainly hurt There's a there's stuff about Trump that people can be legitimately Really angry about in terms of what he's been doing and how he's doing it, but but that you know That's not one of them.
Right?
All right now So let me ask you about the GCHQ thing here because the poor old judge and you know what?
I I sort of kind of threw him under the bus a little bit I mean, I was tweeting to Fox News that save the judge.
We love this guy.
It's not like he's Brian Williams He made one big mistake But you know I had rejected his article for anti-war.com when it came in because just on the face of it He said Obama ordered broke the chain of command and had this secret agreement with the Brits to do it And I just it's the O word in that paragraph just does not ring true to me that Obama would do that I mean the way this works.
I'm just this is my speculation, but it's pretty well informed I think would be that the Justice Department and or the FBI would come to him and say mr.
President This is what we're doing and he would say all right then Thanks for letting me know and that he wouldn't really intervene in that He wouldn't direct them and he certainly wouldn't say yeah, go to the Brits to evade the law but then again, so the point being just that the judge maybe should have left the president out of his scoop and because there actually Possibly was some truth to what he was saying there feels that right you think well I I suspect that he's he's correct in that this Investigation in fact the New York Times I think in an article on March 1st, where they they said that the British and Dutch had provided information on the Flynn case I mean it was there and there that was with the New York Times Current sources, I'm sure in the intelligence community.
They were they were saying it So now basically the judge is saying the same thing But he's he's stitching it together and saying this is why they would do it this way and what he said made a lot of sense But you're absolutely right.
I believe fully that this stuff was known to Obama But that doesn't mean that he ordered it.
This is why you have intelligence agencies This is why you have loyal associates in the White House who do these things for you By the book Obama let somebody else break the rules with a wink But he's not Richard Nixon up there getting drunk and making bad decisions, especially and I think this is the real context He made it perfectly clear all summer long that if Trump wins this election Sorry, dude You know He wasn't gonna sit there and try to pretend to dispute or deny the legitimacy of the election based on any Russia conspiracy theory or anything else so the idea that he would You would have to accept the premise that Obama was willing to go to any length To try to stop Trump to do something like this and I think he'd already made it clear that he absolutely Would stump for Hillary, but that was it Yeah, I think that's I think that's pretty fair But I think at the same time there are probably people in the White House and in the intelligence agencies who are you know?traumatized by what happened in the election and are basically playing a game of getting even and I think there are for what I'm hearing Certainly, there are lots of people at upper levels in places like CIA who are still essentially Obama loyalists Put there as political appointee appointees and are still there because the Trump team Failed to round up enough people as you know Replacements for them and it's a process that's going on But I think I think it's fair to say there are a lot of angry people doing a lot of angry people things But when these things rise to the level of conspiracies, that's where I you know, I have to draw the line I think that things happen very often, but that doesn't necessarily mean there was anything conspiratorial.
Yeah All right.
Well, hey, we still got a few minutes.
So what do you think about?
Re or and reinvading and or escalating in Afghanistan Yemen Somalia Libya Syria and Iraq right now there Phil you know, I Think you know what?
I think about that I had really, you know, hope that that Trump would would retrench in all those areas I did not feel that badly about his pledge To crush Isis because I really would like to see Isis crushed if that's all that they were doing and then getting the hell out But it doesn't seem that that is the way everything is moving.
I think we're moving towards a A reintegration into all these places with more Military and I keep reading almost every day as I'm sure you are new military hardware.
They're buying their new helicopters $29 billion worth in the pipeline now Is that this is just crazy.
It's Trump Trump is a president who is essentially doesn't know anything about foreign policy doesn't know anything about National security defense policy and either he's being led by the nose or he's making a lot of bad judgments all by himself Yeah, well, you know Nicholson the general in charge of Afghanistan Said again this weekend.
It was a interview with the Sunday Times that he wants another 5,000 Soldiers for Afghanistan and I guess I've been sitting around here twirling my thumbs waiting for the Mattis report I thought there was going to be a whole separate Mattis report, but I guess we've heard our number now Yeah, I think we have I think but again these numbers are these numbers are escalating the The whole situation in Iraq Syria right now I mean, I don't even know how many troops there are there now and I try to follow it pretty closely there I think the number is certainly exceeds 10,000 But it might actually exceed it by quite a bit Yeah on the Iraq side or on Iraq and Syria and both combined you mean?
Yeah, both both combined.
Yeah Yeah, I think that probably sounds about right and then there's a new one today and what's the date?
It's uh, oh yesterday or all last night I guess Jason put this together at anti-war comm u.s.
Sends more combat troops to Mosul in latest escalation there And we know they've gone from JSOC to regular infantry Marine Corps now in Syria as well.
So Yeah, and of course this report today about the investigation into killing 200 civilians in a bombing raid Yeah, you know what the latest actually Eric told me this morning that maybe it was the UK that did that one Well could be Yeah, never ends well, so I mean now here's the thing though It's 2017 We're we're a long way into this terror war now and we can all read Donald Trump's mind.
It ain't hard You can hear him thinking from here that well What you do is you send in the Marines to smash him right Mattis and then Mattis says, yeah, that's what we do Man, we use Marines and we smash whoever our enemies are and yet we've already seen how this doesn't work You know you mentioned yeah, I kind of would like to see him smash too But that was the job we gave George W Bush back in September of 2001 Hey go get the bad guys and then stop but yeah, no here we are so But it seems to me like this isn't the start of the third act just the third chapter of this thing We got another eight years what in other words the Obama years might as well be continuing or Even worse maybe the Bush years Maybe might as well and never stop it that Trump's the kind of guy who looks at Obama and says you know his seven wars With his little pansy robots and stuff is weakness.
We need to really go after these guys step it up That's how you win.
You just escalate and so and they have all these theaters I mean hell they can go to Mali and Nigeria too if they want they can go anywhere and I and apparently this is Am I right you think this is absolutely Mattis's and McMaster's point of view as well that like These men are hammers and all they see is nails and off they go Yeah, I think I think you gotta you kind of got a triangulate everything that's going on I mean, I think they're gonna play I quite agree with you I think you're going to play these games in places that we haven't even been in before and But what's what's what worries me is what are these guys thinking about the places that that really could be a serious problem?
Places like Iran.
I mean there hasn't been much talk about Iran AIPAC is in Washington right now They're talking up the Iran issue And it's going to be curious to see if there's anything coming out of the administration on it the you know that would be a major war and That could be a major war that could easily escalate into something awful So let it you know, let them play around in Gambia if they feel like it, you know They have to flex our Marines muscles and but you know for God's sakes, let's let's have a little rationality in terms of Real issues that that can can do a hell of a lot of damage for Gambians Yeah, man You know, so I was talking with Nasser Araby and This reporter in Yemen and and we were talking about this piece in The Washington Post about Wherever the hell it is It's about Mattis wants a whole new escalation in Yemen there and against the Houthis al-qaeda got a slight mention In the whole article, but the entire frame is that this is you know Like in the dumbest claims of the dumbest neocons like the Gaffney heights and the the most fringe kind of idiot to these guys that it just absolutely, apparently Madison the rest of them believe that Yemen the Houthi power Allied with Salah in Yemen represents the expansion of the new Persian Empire and a whole new Hezbollah type movement satellite of the Iranians that must be Confronted and they're about to double down that war in Yemen bad and on the side of al-qaeda in that one again Phil Yeah, well, that's absolutely insane.
I mean as as numerous Authorities have commented that it's the most senseless war.
We've fought since we invaded Iraq and It's and and plus the enabling of the Saudis in it.
It's just just absolutely insane I I you know and and I wrote an article not so long ago I said basically the scary thing about all this is that These generals and a lot of the people that are in senior positions in this administration actually seem to believe what they're saying I mean, it's usually it's usually these people are talking out of the side of their mouth and they're there You know concealing what they actually think but they seem to believe all the things that we've been hearing about Iran and also about Russia Yeah, that's the part that really bothers me too is at least with Obama You knew he was lying and you knew he knew better.
But yeah, these guys really going.
Oh my god What are we gonna do about Iran?
Like they're really worried I'm what are you talking about?
And James Mattis, of course is nothing but the ayatollahs humble servant He's the guy that overthrew Saddam Hussein James Mattis himself was the guy who invaded Iraq for the ayatollah got rid of the Taliban for him, too Yep.
Yep.
Yep All right, thanks Phil always nice yelling at you I mean asking you questions Thanks very much All right.
So that's the great Phil Giraldi.
It's the Council for the National Interest That's where he's the executive director and they're the antidote to the Israel lobby.
He mentioned the the AIPAC conference That'll be our next interview.
I'm sure upcoming AIPAC conference Council for the national interest org to help support their efforts there And then of course, you can always read them at UNS comm and the American conservative comm that's the Scott Horton show I'm Scott Horton.
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