03/01/13 – Jacob Hornberger – The Scott Horton Show

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All right, y'all.
Welcome to the show.
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I'm Scott Horton.
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Got a jam-packed show for you today.
Phil Giraldi on Syria, Barbara Slavin on the Iran talks, Tim Johnson on the drug war down in Mexico, Kevin Zeese on the American hero Bradley Manning.
And we're starting off with our friend Jacob Hornberger from the Future Freedom Foundation, the founder and president of the Future Freedom Foundation at fff.org.
Welcome back to the show, Jacob.
How are you doing?
Oh, fine.
It's great to be back.
Always, Scott.
All right.
Well, good deal.
Very happy to have you here.
And, boy, we have a lot to talk about.
First, let's talk about the Libertarian Angle with you and Sheldon Richman.
What's that?
Oh, it's awesome.
We just did one, and we just had an absolute blast.
It's a new Internet show that Sheldon and I are doing.
As you know, Sheldon's the vice president at FFF now and the editor of our journal Future Freedom.
Well, he and I are now doing a weekly Internet show called the Libertarian Angle that we're using software on the Internet that enables us to appear side by side where we're just talking back and forth and giving the Libertarian Angle on different current events, like we came out of the chute with the scary, scary sequester scenario and the ridiculous arguments that the statists make about the minimum wage.
And so, as you know, you never get the Libertarian Angle on the mainstream commentary shows.
It's all statist nonsense, and so Sheldon and I are giving the Libertarian Angle.
We had a blast, and the next one will be next week.
Cool.
Yeah, well, I saw the first one, and I thought it was great.
And, of course, you know, you two are my favorites, so it's good to watch, and I sure hope people will check it out.
And speaking of the partisan nonsense and all the, you know, what TV news says is important, can you tell me real quick about this sequester thing?
I mean, the fact that TV said that I was supposed to be paying attention to this this whole time has discouraged me from paying any attention to it whatsoever.
But I guess this is the result of the compromise back in the summer of 2011, right, where they agreed to stop talking about the Libya war and to talk about the debt ceiling instead, and they made a deal that this was going to happen now, right?
And so now it's happened, and what is it, and why should I care, or should I?
Well, you really shouldn't except to laugh at it because it is so hilarious that they've, it's supposedly going to have across-the-board cuts on all the programs, military and welfare.
And this was their compromise if they couldn't reach a deal through some super committee on cutting spending that if they didn't reach the deal, it would be across the board.
Well, there's one big problem with it.
There's no cut at all.
I mean, they keep giving this big, scary scenario, or at least they were in all the mainstream status commentators of television programs, the editorial writers, that, oh, my gosh, the sky is going to fall in, there's going to be Y2K, this is going to be disaster.
Well, there's no cut at all.
Federal spending increases from 2012 to 2013, and what they call a cut is a lower increase than what they had hoped to have.
And so that's what we're looking at, that they're getting an increase, but not as much as they wanted to have.
And now the mainstream status has stopped painting all these dark, scary scenarios because they know that it looks like it's going to happen.
And that was part of their strategy that they could get to cancel the sequester because, of course, they don't want to cancel any increases, no matter how large they are in federal spending.
And so now people are going to see that nothing's going to happen, and that's what we keep telling people.
There's nothing that's going to happen.
I mean, it would be the greatest thing in the world to dismantle the whole welfare-warfare state, but, I mean, a slight decrease in the rate of increase is ludicrous.
And now they're blackmailing people, that instead of cutting out the waste, fraud, and abuse that we often hear of government programs, the bureaucrats are taking the things that are most important to Americans in terms of services and saying, well, this is what we're going to cut out, like training for the troops and stuff like that.
And so it's really a war of the bureaucrats and the politicians against American taxpayers now.
You know, it's funny, though.
The way you paint it, though, it really is that obvious, and they know it, too, right?
You're saying they backed off their worst predictions a couple of weeks before the due date here because if you're predicting the end of the world, you need a little bit of a cushion of time so that people can forget just how dire you said it was going to be, you know?
Exactly, because we're going to get that on the death ceiling pretty soon when that comes up.
Oh, the whole world's going to collapse.
America's going to fall into the ocean.
And so, of course, you know that Congress freaks out.
Americans freak out, who are very fearful people.
And so they raise the death ceiling.
They're scared to death now here because all those little dark scenarios, they didn't work that they painted.
The sequester's going to look like it's going to go through.
And so if nothing bad happens, what does it do to all these chicken littles, you know?
Right.
Well, now, I know that it's just a decrease in the rate of projected growth and all that, but is this a little bit of a victory for gridlock?
Is this an actual failure of the bipartisan plot to screw us all every day?
They just couldn't get their act together this time?
Yeah, it's awesome.
I mean, you know, you've got to tip your hat to the Republicans.
They say they don't want to raise taxes, which is great.
You shouldn't raise taxes.
You should just slash spending.
And so I'm sure that the Republicans were scared of their base in terms of raising taxes, and so they refused to do that.
And Obama said, well, we're not going to just cut spending, and so they had this gridlock.
And it's fantastic because even though it's not a true cut in spending, it's less of an increase than what all these bureaucrats had hoped for and planned for.
So that's good for the taxpayers.
But, I mean, really, Scott, when the debt ceiling comes up, we've long argued that don't raise it, and that means the government won't be able to borrow any more.
They'll have to slash immediately $1.3 trillion of federal spending.
They'll have to lay people off.
They'll have to close bases.
They'll have to do all sorts of things.
Sell Alaska back to the Russians.
Well, I don't think it's that desperate, but all you've got to do is start dismantling welfare state, warfare state programs.
And they claim that this would be a bad thing, and we keep telling people this is the best thing in the world.
It gets rid of all these deadweight bureaucrats in the federal sector and puts them in the private productive sector, and it enables people in the private sector to keep the money that's being taken from them to fund all this deadweight.
And this is a positive.
This is not something to be scared of, which is what, of course, they keep painting.
Yeah, well, fire all the gun-toting federal cops first.
Right, get rid of the DEA.
I mean, it's no different from a family.
A family that's deeply in debt and is spending a couple hundred thousand dollars a year more than what they're bringing in in income, they've got to slash.
And cities go through this.
They go into bankruptcy and stuff.
They have to start slashing expenditures.
Why shouldn't the federal government do this?
I mean, they're bankrupting us, and the solution is not to tax us more.
The solution is to slash those programs.
And, of course, as libertarians, we say, what should be the role of government in a free society?
And once you answer that question, well, then you start abolishing all these programs instead of just downsizing them, because, you know, who wants a downsized DEA?
We want to get rid of this horribly immoral and destructive agency.
Yeah, we could start with repealing the 21st century and then get to work on the 20th.
But, I mean, the Department of Homeland Security, what kind of abomination is that?
The fact that that thing can even exist in the space between Canada and Mexico without all of us just, you know, imploding in a poof of irony or something is just incredible to me.
I mean, and the fact that it's gone on for a decade now, that they even called it Homeland Security, which sounds straight out of the totalitarian 20th century.
Well, like I wrote in my blog today that fear is the coin of the realm, and this is the way they keep the welfare state and the warfare state going.
I mean, it's a representative democracy, so they can't just impose it on people.
So what they do is come up with strategies to cause voters to want to keep this huge monstrosity, including the Homeland Security and the PSA and the whole bunch.
And their strategy is to make people afraid.
And so the terrorists are coming to get you.
Before that, it was the communists and the illegal aliens and the drug dealers, and we're the only one standing between you and these people that are coming to get you.
And then they go out and produce these threats too, you know, like they do with this interventionist foreign policy.
And when people retaliate, like they did on 9-11 or 1993 and the World Trade Center on the USS Cole, they say, oh, oh, well, this is just terrorist hatred for our freedom and values, and now you need to keep, you know, forking over this huge military budget so that we can keep you safe.
So it's just a giant scam, and founded under that scam is fear.
You've got to keep people afraid.
That was the whole Cold War scenario.
You know, the Soviets had more missiles.
There's a missile gap.
You need to keep funding the military, the Pentagon in here.
And what we keep telling people is if you can overcome your fears, then you can achieve a free society.
But as long as you fall for this junk, you keep saddled with the welfare state over you.
I wonder if that's why there's such a political consensus of hatred toward Joe McCarthy, because he just pushed the fear thing too far, where every dinner table had a discussion that said, that's a bunch of crap, like there's a communist under every bed.
There are not.
I know my neighbors.
They're not communists, you know.
And so he kind of, you know, he overplayed their card, their hand a little bit and made it a little too obvious to the rest of us.
That's an interesting twist.
As I'm listening to you, I'm thinking, yeah, I think a lot of that was going on, well, especially when he started going after the military, you know, communists in the military, you know.
We've got to start checking it out and stuff, and I think that's at the point where people said this has gone a little bit too far and they stopped looking under their beds for a communist.
But that was the whole environment of the Cold War.
There's a communist under your bed, the communists are this monolithic entity that they're just waiting to attack America and be afraid and stay afraid, and that's what kept the whole warfare state going throughout the Cold War.
Jacob, you've got to kind of give those generations, really, it lasted so long, a little bit of credit in that the Soviet Union actually did exist, right?
You know, where now we're fighting against an Islamo-fascist caliphate that last I heard was hiding in the attic from his own wives, you know.
Well, that's really what we're saying to people is, you know, where are the transport ships?
Where are the millions of troops crossing the ocean to invade America?
Where are the supply lines?
Where is the army of terrorists invading America?
I mean, it's this overblown fear, and it's an ill-founded fear.
There is no terrorist coming to invade and conquer the United States and take over the Congress and the IRS and the interstate highway system.
Even 9-11 was just a retaliation for what the U.S. government had been doing in the Middle East.
It wasn't the first stage in a gigantic invasion.
And I think once people start realizing that this is just a stupid, irrational, overblown fear that the terrorists are going to conquer America, and that the terrorist threat is produced by the interventionist state, the U.S. government, then all of a sudden it's easier to see through all this fear-mongering and overblown scary scenarios and stuff.
And you can see they're already doing it.
You know, Scott, they're pulling out of Afghanistan.
They've already pulled out of Iraq.
Well, now, they've got to make some new official enemies here to keep people scared.
So they're going into the area around China, and they're provoking trouble there so that they can bring the communist threat back to the front.
And, of course, they always have the North Korea threat, you know, where they can, oh, the communists from North Korea are going to invade the United States.
And then they've got the drug war, where they're sending the military into Latin America and stuff.
You know, all you need is one big attack by some drug cartel on a federal building or something, and you're going to see, you know, big stuff about, oh, the drug dealers are coming to get us now.
And this is all engendered by U.S. policy.
It's not a coincidence.
Yeah, well, and they're invading Africa too, you know.
Anywhere you've got a brown guy with a rifle, you've got possible resistance, which is terrorism.
Yeah, that's a great point, is that, you know, isn't it a coincidence?
They're coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan and now setting up bases, and they're assassinating people.
Well, you know, we all know what happens when people are assassinated and their families are assassinated.
Their survivors, their friends, their relatives retaliate.
And then, you see, it's that retaliation that then the U.S. government and the Pentagon and the CIA says, oh, you see, we're the only ones that can keep you safe from this threat that they themselves have produced.
And that's why the libertarian message is so darned important, is to bring these troops home, dismantle this overseas empire, because that's what's costing us the freedom at home.
Well, you know, here's where we run up against a major problem.
I don't know if you saw the Washington Post today, but 50% of Americans, which I guess maybe that's good, 50% know that America has the largest military in the world.
And the other 50% have no idea.
Now, I don't know, I guess they didn't follow up and say, well, who do you imagine has a bigger military than us?
And by the way, all the other major powers in the world are at least our friends, if not our outright satellites, like the European states and all the various Middle Eastern states.
And so who this is, I guess it's just a problem in geography, right?
Like, as far as the American people know, there are 14 continents full of armed superpowers out there that our government has to contend with.
They don't freaking even know what the rest of the world looks like on a map even.
So, you know, you might as well have Mars and all the little green men are somewhere over there by China.
And they're on their way here if our government doesn't stop them, I guess.
Oh, that's it.
This is the last barrier, the giant warfare state, the Pentagon, the Cold War military machine.
And when they lost the Soviet Union and Gorbachev brought it into the Cold War, they freaked out.
Because people were talking about the so-called peace dividend.
And they went into the Middle East.
They started poking hornets' nests.
They got those terrorist counterstrikes.
And then all of a sudden, oh, we've got to spend more money than ever, even more than the Cold War.
Is that why they stopped teaching geography?
I guess.
But, you know, I forget what the statistic is.
But I think our military, we spend more on the military than, like, the next ten countries combined or something like that.
Yeah, half of the world's military spending.
Yeah.
I mean, it's just absolutely.
And second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth place is all NATO countries who are all on American welfare anyway.
Right.
And the irony of this is that the American people generally are among the most fearful people in the world.
And so you've got the gigantic, most powerful military in history with the most frightened people in the world.
But, of course, there's a link there, because it's that fear that Americans have of practically their own shadow, which has been inculcated in them by federal officials, that then manifests itself in terms of support for an ever-growing military machine.
And it's funny.
The bigger the military gets, the more powerful, the more fearful the people are, when they really should be fearful of the federal government itself.
I mean, that was the big message of our founding fathers.
The biggest threat to your freedom does not come from overseas.
It comes from an all-powerful government, a government which, by the way, now has the power to assassinate us, torture us, hold us in detention, in a military dungeon indefinitely.
I mean, this is crazy, Scott.
This is not a free society.
You know, the ironic part, and I want to ask you more about the assassination policy and the whole war against law and all that going on, but it seems worth bringing up that, as far as I know, and maybe you've got better examples, and I'm not trying to be too utopian here, right, because a war could break out between Mongolia and China tomorrow or later this afternoon or something.
I'm not saying it's paradise or anything, but sort of, kind of, if you subtract America's wars, this is like the greatest golden age in the history of mankind.
More wealth, more capitalism, more private property rights, more markets, more people with higher standards of living, more peace, more elected governments than ever, anywhere, than even imaginable.
You know, where poor people all, not just in America, but all over the world, even the poor people are doing okay.
And the only wars, I used to even say, you know, other than the Congo or something, the only wars are ours.
But, you know, the Congo War is ours, too.
I mean, it's all America's wars.
Otherwise, the world is basically at peace right now.
Yeah, that's a fascinating point.
I mean, Americans have such a nice opportunity.
They had the opportunity in 1989 when the Soviet Union dismantled.
But right now they have that same opportunity.
Pull out of Afghanistan, bring all the troops from everywhere, bring them home from North Korea or South Korea.
There's no reason why American troops should be there.
The Cold War is over.
That's a civil war between North and South Korea, and South Korea can handle itself.
It's got a more powerful military.
It's strong.
And why should American soldiers be a tripwire there?
Why do we have troops in Europe?
Why do we have troops in Africa?
Why do we have troops in South America and Central America?
It's ridiculous.
Americans have an opportunity here to dismantle this whole military machine with the wars that you're referring to, the interventions, the sanctions, the embargoes, and lead the world to this model city on a hill where a free society is here at home with a constitutional republic and no more big standing military industrial complex and secret police forces, CIA, and the whole Cold War machine.
Dismantle the Cold War machine.
And then the welfare state.
I mean, we've got this grand opportunity, Scott.
You're right.
There are no world wars going on.
This is the time to lead the world.
Yeah, well, and we are, but Washington, D.C.'s way, which isn't working out well for too many people.
No, they use the military as the American diplomats.
I mean, did you see where they were trying to make friends with the Vietnamese communist government by sending a battleship into their harbor as like a token of friendship from America?
I mean, what kind of friendship signal is that?
They try to isolate the American people with their sanctions and embargoes, like you can't go to Cuba because you'll be a criminal if you spend money in Cuba, but you can go to Vietnam, that's okay, or China.
You know, those are communist regimes too.
And so then they use the military as the diplomats when it should be the exact opposite.
Bring back the military, discharge them, leave them out of world affairs, and then liberate the American people to interact with the people of the world, trading, cultural groups, touring.
The world loves Americans.
They just don't like the federal government.
Yeah.
You know, that Vietnam thing is just kind of whack, isn't it?
The way Nixon goes to China to make it okay to lose the Vietnam War because now it's not the domino theory anymore.
It's just losing one domino and who cares about Vietnam, right?
And Vietnam, I think, is probably a lot more of a communist country than China is, you know, ever since we normalized relations with them and open trade and all that.
But now we're going to try to create a military alliance with the communist Vietnamese, I guess, inherently recognizing that their Vietnamese nationalism precludes them from simply being the stooges of the Chinese, which was the excuse for that war in the first place, so that we can use them to help us contain China, our friends.
Right.
For the last four years.
I mean, this is the regime that killed 58,000 American men, and they're over there asking to install a U.S. military base in Vietnam as a counterweight to China.
I mean, this is what I'm saying.
They're now looking for new official enemies, and China makes a good foil.
I mean, communism and, boy, China's attacking us and we've got to be prepared.
I mean, it's the same old nonsense that they go out and they stir up trouble, and that's one of the main reasons why we've got to pull these people back, dismantle them, and restore a limited government republic to our land.
This military empire business, Americans are so wedded to it because they grew up with it.
We were all born and raised in this thing.
I mean, that's why I love the libertarian movement is that we don't accept the world as it is.
We want to change it.
We want to restore a free society, a republic to our land, and it's what makes our movement just so grand and glorious and noble.
And I think there's a lot of people waking up to this.
They're seeing the out-of-control spending, which is partly because of the military, in large part because of the military.
They're seeing that it's sending us down the road to bankruptcy, and I think a lot of people are waking up and realizing the only way to restore our society is to re-examine, re-evaluate the whole warfare state, interventionist empire paradigm, as well as the welfare state, the planned economy, the drug war.
I mean, that's what we libertarians are all about.
We want to change the world for the better, and I think a lot of people are now starting to realize that.
Well, now, you know, there was a poll years ago that said that, you know, those same American people who can't find America on a map, 91% of them agree that the Constitution is important to them.
And, of course, what that really means is they heard that Bill of Rights in there somewhere, and they have a feeling that the Constitution is what prevents the government from just shooting them and leaving them in a ditch, basically.
You know, there's a sort of understanding that they remember from, you know, sixth-grade social studies about it, or something anyway, that we're better with that thing than without it, at least for now, that kind of idea.
You know, and you gave this great speech, and people can find the video at fff.org, and it was with the Students for Liberty Conference, where you talked about the importance of civil liberties, and you have all these articles about the assassination policy, and this ultimate repudiation, really, of the Constitution, right?
The claim of the president, or at least the implicit claim that, yeah, he can murder you or me or our wives or little sisters or whoever he wants.
Yeah, I mean, what our country's turned into, especially since 9-11, but it was going on before 9-11, the torture and the assassinations and stuff, but it became official policy after 9-11.
This is not the America that our founding fathers bequeathed to us.
I mean, to live in a country where the government has the power to assassinate its own people with impunity.
I mean, Obama can assassinate anyone.
He doesn't have to answer any questions.
It's just presumed that it's national security.
He makes the call.
I mean, this is not the type of America that our founding fathers envisioned.
This is not a free society when the president and the military and the CIA can kill any American they want and not have to answer any questions about it.
This is why you had a Constitution calling into existence a federal government of limited powers.
That's why you got four amendments to the Constitution, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th.
Those don't deal with God-given rights.
Those deal with procedural protections that are designed to protect us from the deprivation of life, liberty, or property without due process of law.
And they've transcended all those with this so-called war on terrorism that was a direct result of their own interventionist policies.
And this is not the America that we should be living under, Scott.
I mean, this is not a free society when the government's got that kind of omnipotent power.
These are not good times in terms of freedom, but in terms of interest in libertarianism and people discovering libertarianism, these are probably the most exciting times that I've ever seen.
Well, you know, you're right.
It has been going on for a long time.
But you think back to, say, right after September 11th when they rounded up so many Muslims under the theory of a material witness warrant, basically just a general warrant on Muslims.
In fact, of course, you published James Bovard's great work on this subject at FFF.org.
And the deal is that, well, come on, their names are not only hard to pronounce, but they're Arabic names like them hijackers.
And so this isn't happening to me or my next-door neighbors.
And, you know, you cite Padilla or you cite al-Awlaki, which Padilla, I don't know, that's not an Arab name.
But still, those are exceptions, right?
Padilla, he was palling around with terrorists or whatever.
And it's still, you know, at most triple digits worth of people we're talking about here.
Obama is not waging wars against American towns or rounding up people and putting them in FEMA camps or any of these kinds of things.
Certainly no one that most of us have ever heard of or met personally.
And so what you're describing really is we're at the bottom of the slippery slope in terms of the theory of the law, but it's not being deployed against us in a way where the average American has been made to take notice yet.
Well, the sword is in the sheath.
But the powers that are now possessed are no different from the dictatorial powers possessed by other dictators like Pinochet of Chile or Mubarak of Egypt.
Those are the same powers that were used on a much more widespread basis.
I mean, Pinochet rounded up 40,000 people, and all he needed was a good crisis.
And the crisis comes, and so all of a sudden the sword comes out of the sheath.
Well, what our founders did is they created a system brought into existence, a government, where there was no sword and no sheath.
The government didn't have the power to do this even in a crisis.
And that's what's changed, is that when President Bush decreed that he now had these powers, everything changed.
No constitutional amendment, no anything.
And so all you need is a good crisis now, and there's no telling what's going to happen.
That's why we need to be using this period, when people are still rational, to correct this situation.
Because if there's another great big crisis, and remember in Chile it was an economic crisis that did it, then all of a sudden you may start seeing the same type of Pinochet tactics that the Chilean people suffered.
Right.
After all, those Muslims that were rounded up under the material witness warrants, the courts eventually freed them.
But next time they could just all be sent to Guantanamo.
Oh, absolutely, because in a crisis, I mean, you can already see the deference that the federal courts have given to the national security state, the war on terrorism, state secrets.
It was the same kind of deference that the Pinochet federal courts were giving to the military then.
And this is when there's no big crisis.
I mean, this is like, what, 12 years after 9-11?
I mean, this is ridiculous.
These are supposed to be temporary powers.
The Supreme Court just refused to hear a case on the obviously patently unconstitutional NSA spying on Americans.
Right.
I mean, them refusing to hear the case is a stamp of approval, right?
That's it.
End of argument.
They're the Supreme Court.
There is no higher.
Are you there?
Did we lose him?
Well, shoot, the interview is over.
I don't know what happened.
Everybody, that was Jacob Hornberger, founder and president of the Future Freedom Foundation, fff.org.
Check out his great blog and all the great writers.
In fact, here's a spot that I did about all their great writers.
Hey, everybody, Scott Horton here, inviting you to check out the Future Freedom Foundation at fff.org.
They've got a brand new website with new and improved access to more than 20 years worth of essays promoting the cause of liberty.
And FFF's writers, including Jacob Hornberger, Jim Bovard, Sheldon Richman, Anthony Gregory, Wendy McElroy, and more, aren't just good.
They're the best at opposing and discrediting our corrupt overlords in Washington and their warfare-welfare regulatory police state.
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