All right, y'all, welcome to the Scott Horton Show.
I am the Director of the Libertarian Institute, Editorial Director of Antiwar.com, author of the book Fool's Errand, Time to End the War in Afghanistan, and I've recorded more than 5,000 interviews going back to 2003, all of which are available at scotthorton.org.
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You guys, on the line, I've got Dan McKnight.
He was a Marine, then a soldier, then a guardsman in Afghanistan, and now he runs bringourtroopshome.us.
Welcome back to the show.
How you doing, Dan?
Hey, Scott.
How you doing?
I'm doing great.
Okay, so you guys are behind a major push to get Defend the Guard legislation passed in states across the Union.
What is that, and how's it going?
Yep.
31 states now have sponsors for this Defend the Guard legislation, and what it is, it's legislation that would require that a state's National Guard units cannot be deployed to long-term combat duty overseas unless Congress has first done their job and declared war, as required by the Constitution.
And this legislation was started about five years ago by Pat McGeehan, a delegate in West Virginia legislature, and he kind of got nowhere with it until a year or so ago.
He got it out to a floor vote where it tied 50 to 50 before the legislature had to convene or had to be dismissed due to COVID.
And now here we are.
Pat McGeehan's laid the groundwork, and now we've got this legislation.
Bringourtroopshome is sponsoring it, and we've got sponsors in 31 states all across the country, all the way from the northern tip in Maine to Idaho, Wyoming, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Florida, Texas, Arizona.
It's all over the country, and we're trying to pass this in as many states as we can with the goal of basically telling Congress to do your damn job.
If you want to take the largest force in the United States military, which is the National Guard, and you want to take them out of their states and go fight a war in Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, Syria, or Africa, or wherever else, then first declare war and make it constitutional.
Otherwise, the militia or the National Guard is not supposed to leave the United States.
And that's our big push right now.
And the biggest fight we've got, the one that I'm drawing the most attention to, is either in Florida or Texas right now.
Texas, their state party, with their party chairman, Allen West, retired Lieutenant Colonel, their party actually adopted Defend the Guard as part of their official party platform for the state GOP.
And so now GOP legislators are kind of beholden to the party to sponsor and support that type of legislation there.
And then in Florida, where Governor DeSantis has basically told the federal government where they can take their domestic missions and shove them, he pulled his National Guard home from Washington, D.C.
And now in Florida, we've got Anthony Sabatini and Melanie Bell are sponsoring the legislation down there, two of the most liberty-focused legislators, probably in the entire country.
And they're pushing Defend the Guard.
So we're really excited about it.
And in fact, Anthony yesterday made an announcement he's getting ready to run for United States Congress.
So his soul might be lost when he goes to D.C., but for now, he's in Florida fighting for us.
Funny.
All right.
Well, so first of all, talk a little bit, if you could, about the role that the National Guard plays, because don't they just do sandbags when there's a flood and, you know, help put down a riot or maybe stand around when there's not one or something like that?
What's all this about the National Guard going off to war?
I thought that was the Army, Infantry, and the Marine Corps that do all that fighting.
Sure.
The National Guard, I believe, is made up of a little over 500,000 soldiers that fall under the jurisdiction of the Army in training and promotions and things like that.
But they are the state militia.
The National Guard has been codified in terms of militia in 1906.
And the National Guard's purpose is to repel an invasion, to put down an insurrection, or to enforce the laws of the Union.
Those are the three purposes of the National Guard.
And over time, it's been bastardized, and they've been taken off to fight in these foreign misadventures overseas.
And especially since 9-11, the National Guard has been a major, major player in the global war on terror.
And they've sustained about 15 percent of the casualties of that war.
They've provided as much as 22 to 23 percent of the total force in that war, including equipment and manpower.
And they've deployed from 50 states and three territories to go fight in the global war on terror.
In fact, the South Dakota National Guard has been deployed every single day since 9-11, except for 46 days.
Every single day for 20 years, except for 46 days.
So the National Guard is playing this huge role, and it's not really their mission.
But the National Guard can and should go fight our wars if it's an actual declared war.
You know, because once Congress declares war, that becomes the law of the Union.
And since Congress has advocated that role and responsibility, the National Guard is actually being used inappropriately, and we're calling on the states to do something about it, take their control back from the federal government.
And now, is this sort of based on the premise that you know Congress is never going to take responsibility for these wars, and so that's your loophole to just stay home?
Sure.
Yep.
This is a way to take away a massive portion of the force that's being used in these endless wars and force one of two things to happen.
One, for the wars to end, or two, for Congress to reclaim their authority, which they sort of did in a weak-ass attempt in a resolution that was filed by Tim Kaine and Todd Young in the Senate last week, trying to repeal the 1991 Authorization of Use of Military Force and the 2002 Authorization of Use of Military Force, but not the 2001, which is the one that we're actually operating under.
And so Congress is sort of giving lip service to this idea of ending the wars and doing it the right way, but no one's really going to do it.
But you know, there was a YouGov poll that just came out yesterday, and I can send it to you.
I forgot the details, but an overwhelming majority of the Republican voters, Trump voters, support ending all wars and cutting off foreign aid to countries outside the United States.
And an overwhelming majority of Democratic voters support endless wars and continuing to send this foreign money to foreign players.
It's almost like we're in 1984, but flipped, you know, that the two parties have crossed over this midline, and it's just a strange place we live in.
But yeah, we realize that Congress probably won't ever reclaim their authority, and that's why we're calling on the states to do it instead.
Well, listen, I mean, just in the broadest kind of zoomed-out sense, now is the time.
If you think about when Barack Obama tried to start a war in 2013, based on the alleged sarin attack in eastern Damascus, basically there, the fact that it was Obama who was the commander-in-chief at the time really helped to undermine support by the broad American right for a new war.
And the framing wasn't perfect.
It was essentially, we don't care who gets gassed, we don't want to go help, was sort of how it was framed.
But still, I mean, it was a false flag attack by al-Qaeda in Turkey.
We all know that now.
It was pretty obvious at the time.
And in fact, James Clapper, Obama's director of national intelligence, said this is no slam dunk.
We found that out years later, that he wouldn't stand by the intelligence to the president.
That's part of why he didn't do it.
But the spirit there was, eh, we might follow George Bush into war, but we don't want to follow Barack Obama.
You know, an air war over Libya is one thing, but the war in Syria was looking to get really hairy there, and could have escalated worse, was the fear.
And so the spirit just wasn't there.
And liberals, as you say in the polls, they might be more tolerant of this kind of thing and color it up in their imaginations as humanitarianism and internationalism and enlightened principles and stuff like that, but they don't want to actually fight.
You need the support of the American right to go and to have a war.
And I know that the government can ignore people on just about everything, but on war, they need somebody out there.
And so if you have Republicans in Republican-held state legislatures passing laws like this and really putting into practice their spirit that they do not want to continue what they now call the forever wars, the terror wars and the regime change wars in the Middle East over there, and that they mean to do something about it, this is the most effective thing at all.
Because what can the Democrats do when the right not only say in the polls they don't like it, but are truly moving from the grassroots in the 50 states to prevent their husbands and brothers and sons from having to go and fight in these things anymore, and really putting their money where their mouth is and the rubber of the bottom of their shoes at the road where it counts.
So I think this is far more powerful than even you realize how powerful this is, and I know you know.
Yeah, I think it is pretty powerful, and it's given us a real chance to kind of explore this use of the National Guard.
And you brought up the war in Syria, and in the sixth year of that war, the South Dakota National Guard was sent to go fight in Syria, excuse me, not the South, South Carolina National Guard was sent to go fight in Syria, and they took all their armored Bradley fighting vehicles over there with them, and they sat and they guarded oil wells in Syria.
The National Guard, so we found all these instances where the National Guard was used in a place that just doesn't make sense, like the Oregon National Guard last year in the middle of that massive firefighting season, they were fighting fires in Oregon using their helicopters to drop water, and the Department of Defense took them off those fires in their own state and sent them to Afghanistan to go fight in the war over there, and their job was to ferry supplies and diplomats around the country.
But when they got there, COVID hit, and they were sitting in tents their entire deployment instead of being at home fighting fires.
The National Guard is being misused to the highest order, and we see it in D.C. right now, and that's a different sort of mission, but they're being politicized, and we're tired of it.
So you're right, we think this is powerful, we think this is gonna send a message, a very clear message, and we know we're getting attention because every time we go to testify in front of a legislature, a two or three star general shows up to testify against us, and claims jobs, jobs, jobs, and we're gonna lose money, and the biggest, most probably grotesque example that was in South Dakota where I testified three weeks ago, and the general showed up and said that he couldn't swear that we would lose money, but it sure would be unpatriotic if we passed this bill, and that he could get behind the idea if it was just a resolution, but not legislation.
That seems radical.
I agree with the concept, and I would agree with the resolution, but don't pass the bill because it'll take funding away from my club.
And so we're tired of it, we're doing everything we can to fight it, the organization's growing.
We've launched defendtheguard.us, it's another website that's got an interactive map where you can see where the legislation is pushed, and who's pushing it, and articles about it.
South Carolina had an article published with them in the Washington Times, I mean we're getting a lot of traction, and I'd encourage anybody to go to that website, and click on the informational tab where you can actually sign up and get regular updates from us.
It's at the bottom where it says join us, or at bringourtroopshome.us, and they can click the contact tab and do the same thing, but I'd really encourage people, probably the number one thing I would ask people to do right now would be to focus on the defend the guard mission right now, because that's where you have the most impact.
You can reach out and talk to your neighbor who might be your legislator, and ask them to support this bill, look them in the eye, and be able to have them respond to you why they do or why they don't support it, and then you can put pressure on them.
This is the closest to the people that we can make this type of a foreign policy action, and so that'd be my plea to anybody that's listening right now, to go on there, join us at your local state, and let's all put our shoulder into this thing, and let's really make it move.
Yeah, absolutely.
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So what's the total number of states it's being introduced in this season, or is that still top secret?
No, no.
It's 31 states have bill sponsors in it, and those bills can range anywhere from being in legislative services, being drafted right now, or it's already been pushed and been into a committee, and we've already had committee hearings, or it's being pushed out onto the floor for a vote.
So there's three phases in legislation, and it could be in any one of those three phases.
And then there's a small group of states that are still waiting to get into legislative services to be drafted, because their sessions are year-round legislatures, and so they haven't really gotten into the swing of things yet.
But 31 states.
So we went from one state five years ago, to two states three years ago, to 11 states last year, and 31 this year.
That's just great.
And listen now, I think I emphasized there that Republicans are leading on most of this, starting with Pat McGeehan, but there are Democrats working on this too, at least co-sponsoring too.
Are they actually sponsoring these bills too, or it's all Republicans so far?
One of my favorite sponsors is Representative Dale Kobayashi in Hawaii, who is a Democrat in Hawaii, and he's carried this bill two years.
He thought it was going to pass last year, but their session got cut off again because of COVID, and it kind of died on the vine.
That's good PR there, right?
Led by Republicans, led by combat veterans like yourself, but also bipartisan too.
So it's not exclusive, but it originates sort of from the right, but it's meant to be for all vets and for all people who care about this.
Truly, it's even more than bipartisan, because there's one official Libertarian Party member that's a state legislator, and he's in Wyoming, Marshall Burt.
He's co-sponsoring our bill in Wyoming, where we have a Democrat, a Republican, and a Libertarian as the primary sponsors, with 20 co-sponsors.
So we've got three parties sponsoring it in Wyoming, and Liz Cheney's own backyard.
And wouldn't you know it, the adjutant general from the Wyoming National Guard invited those bill sponsors out to his base this weekend to give them a private tour and a private meeting with the general.
In fact, you know, I'm going to be in Wyoming at the end of this month and actually talking to some of these legislators.
Are you going to be there for all that stuff?
What day is that?
I don't even know what the event is.
All right.
Well, I'll get with you later.
I don't want to say it at the top of my head, because I'll get it wrong.
But it's in the 20s this month, early 20s of this month.
But yeah, so yeah, I'm going to tell them what you said, and hopefully that'll go over well.
I think it will.
And in Wyoming, just last week in Wyoming, two GOP central committees, one at a county level and one the Wyoming Republican Women's Association, both passed resolutions supporting Defend the Guard.
And so Wyoming's kind of our tip of the spear right now, just because of the action that's going on there.
You know what, too, Dan?
I've got to say, this is such a great experiment in the old law versus the new order, right?
Is the Constitution the law of the land?
Is there anything left of the old republic and the Bill of Rights?
Or is the turn into the new century, you know, the end of the last remnants of that old system where supposedly power came from the bottom up?
And you, my friend, are really putting that to the test and on the core issue of world empire and the local, again, flood response forces' role in enforcing world empire out there.
Sure.
No, I appreciate that, and I agree.
We're not trying to interpret part of the Constitution and bend it to our will.
It's clearly defined.
The Constitution, the enumerated powers are about as clear as it can come.
Congress declares war, right?
Congress has the ability to raise armies, and the National Guard or the militia can only be used for three purposes.
We're not debating the interpretation of the Constitution.
We're simply reading it, and we're trying to force people to abide by what it says, not an interpretation of it.
It feels like it's a pretty clear issue.
Absolutely.
All right.
Now, so give us a few words here about the original project itself, the core of the project, bringourtroopshome.us.
Yep, so bringourtroopshome, as you know, it's a veteran-led organization, mostly right of center veterans.
I would say liberty, libertarian, conservative veterans.
Although we don't discriminate, all veterans are welcome in our organization.
We started as an effort to put pressure on Republican lawmakers primarily to end the endless wars and to bring the troops home from Afghanistan and Yemen and Iraq and Syria, stop the empire from spreading across the African continent.
And from there, we've got involved in all kinds of different projects, but Defend the Guards probably are the one we hang our hat on and we're most proud of.
Yeah.
Well, listen, as I keep saying over and over again, it's so important that combat veterans of this century and these terror wars are leading this fight.
And I know that there are huge numbers, I don't know how many, but there are some significant proportion of the listeners to this show are anti-war veterans.
And I would say to you guys, these are your guys, bringourtroopshome.us.
This is the team to join to get on the right side of this fight.
And they're making such progress right now, I don't know what else you'd be doing.
So bringourtroopshome.us and defendtheguard.us, you said, right?
Correct.
All right.
That's Dan McKnight.
Thanks very much, sir.
You bet, Scott.
Good talking to you.
The Scott Horton Show, anti-war radio, can be heard on KPFK 90.7 FM in LA, APSradio.com, www.kpfk94.com, scotthorton.org, and libertarianinstitute.org.
