Sorry, I'm late.
I had to stop by the Wax Museum again and give the finger to FDR.
We know Al-Qaeda, Zawahiri is supporting the opposition in Syria.
Are we supporting Al-Qaeda in Syria?
It's a proud day for America.
And by God, we've kicked Vietnam syndrome once and for all.
Thank you very, very much.
I say it, I say it again, you've been had.
You've been took.
You've been hoodwinked.
These witnesses are trying to simply deny things that just about everybody else accepts as fact.
He came, he saw us, he died.
We ain't killing their army, but we killing them.
We be on CNN like Say Our Name been saying, say it three times.
The meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world.
Then there's going to be an invasion.
All right, you guys.
Introducing Richard Booth.
About a year ago or so, I guess, I got an email from Richard saying that he's a researcher and is in the middle of a massive project of research on the Oklahoma City bombing.
And I guess my show had come to his attention through some Google searching and some YouTubes and what have you, all the interviews I've done on this subject in the past.
J.D. Cash and Jesse Trinidou and all these things.
And so and I also have my own kind of repository of Jesse Trinidou's court documents and all these kinds of things.
So we email back and forth a little bit and it is not open to the public yet.
The OKC archives at OKC archives dot net.
But I guess one of the questions I'll be asking here in a second is what you could do to get access to it.
If you really wanted to dive into this thing.
But I've been clicking around a little bit and it sure does look impressive and like the kind of thing I would sure like to spend a lot of time on.
So welcome to the show, Richard.
How are you doing?
Good, good.
Thanks for having me, Scott.
Very happy to have you here.
And for those who don't know, this is long been a thing of mine ever since that day, actually.
And you have a somewhat similar story.
You were what, I guess, a year younger than me or right around the same age, right?
Same time, 1995, April 19th, 1995.
And you say that you're from where in Oklahoma now?
Well, I grew up in Pulso, Oklahoma.
And that's in kind of eastern Oklahoma, right?
Yeah, it's in the north, northeastern corner of Oklahoma.
Okay.
And then so I guess at what point did you get interested in kind of digging a little deeper compared to the surface of the story, the way that it was presented in the media there?
Well, you know, it came on pretty quickly because when it happened, I was a junior in high school.
And, you know, like everybody, we all were shocked by what had happened.
And I followed it in the newspaper.
And when I saw the sketches of the suspects, John Doe No.
1 and John Doe No.
2, I followed it and followed the story.
You know, I was in a political philosophy class and we would all talk about current events.
And so I was following this story.
And when I started to see that this John Doe No.
2 was not apprehended, that really started to bother me.
And it was something that stood out to me as really an aberration in the case.
And as that story developed, I just took more interest.
At the time, I used the Internet.
It was in its infancy.
And online on a mailing list, J.D. Cash's articles from the McCurtain Gazette, those were shared.
And so I was reading his article in 96, 97, and he really was the one who got my attention on the case and about different areas of the case that the mainstream media just wasn't covering.
Well, so you really have a major advantage over me.
I didn't really get on the Internet until much later.
It was so slow, I just couldn't stand it.
And I didn't know how to do it right.
I don't know.
386, what am I going to do with this thing?
So I was reading the New American Magazine, which had a lot of kind of recapping J.D. Cash's work.
And then, you know, there was a lot of sort of right wing stuff on the Access Channel here in town and different stuff.
And there were books, and I guess I did get online a bit in 97.
I did a little bit of research.
But it sounds like you were really plugged in right away to what was going on there.
And I can tell, and this was part of our initial conversation over the email, was, you know, you're really trying as hard as you can to be careful here and to disregard the goofy stuff.
And there's a lot of goofy stuff about the Oklahoma City bombing, starting with the Judith Miller, Laurie Milroy, Jaina Davis, blame it on Iraqis and Palestinians angle.
What's up with that?
Definitely.
One thing I noticed about that, because, you know, I've read all the books on the bombing.
And when I read Jaina Davis's book, one thing that was different about her book is all of the witnesses that she has in her book, she has given fictitious names.
And so her narrative in her book really kind of stands on its own, almost away from the evidence.
To me, it's sort of a contrary narrative that people can go and look at and say, oh, maybe this is what happened.
But, you know, when you look into this case and you look at the FBI documents, which Roger G.
Charles has amassed a great collection of, and you look at that evidence, you find that the people who are involved in this bombing were very likely neo-Nazis, not Middle Easterners.
Yeah, you know what?
I never actually even read her book, The Third Terrorist, and maybe I should have.
Maybe it's unfair to speak about if I hadn't really taken a look at it.
But, you know, I called her to arrange an interview and I guess to, I assume now to get a review copy for free.
And I remember talking to her and thinking that she was completely crazy and that I was completely uninterested.
As she explained to me that Al-Qaeda and Hamas and Hezbollah and every other terrorist group you ever heard of, they're all the same thing.
And they're all in on it against us.
And I don't know if she threw in they all work for Iran or not, but she might as well have, or all work for Saddam Hussein in Iraq.
But she clearly was not really worth taking seriously on that, which is kind of unfortunate because isn't it the case that for Channel 4 NBC affiliate news there in Oklahoma City, she actually got to the bottom of some interesting things.
Whether you agree with the direction those clues led or not, didn't she?
Well, that's true.
One of the things that she did uncover that was interesting and that you can find in the documentation on the case is that there was an APB that was put out by the sheriffs that morning at about 11 a.m.
And it ran for a few hours.
And this was for a brown truck.
They were looking for a brown truck with two Middle Eastern suspects.
And this was based on the witness testimony of a witness named Manuel Acosta and Dr. Claudia Rasevic.
They had seen two Middle Eastern males running towards a brown truck just right before the bombing.
And so that generated an APB.
And that was true in her book.
And there are some things in her book that are true.
But ultimately, I'm just not swayed by her argument at all.
Well, and she also one of the things and this is sort of out of context with the rest, regardless of exactly what was behind this.
She reported that indeed multiple sources that the ATF agents had admitted that they were warned not to go to work that day and that they had gotten messages on their pages to stay away.
Absolutely.
That is something that has been in the books and all of the articles and so forth on the case that really stands out.
And that goes to foreknowledge.
And foreknowledge is an area that I think is important because if you look at who might have had foreknowledge of the bombing, that'll give you an idea as to perhaps who McVeigh's accomplices were.
And so it's disturbing to say the least that the ATF seems to have had foreknowledge, which tells me very likely that they probably had an informant that had figured out, you know, that a bombing was going to happen that day at that building.
Well, yeah, or more than one.
Let me ask you this in your archive here, because this is, you know, not an archive of opinion pieces here.
This is all firsthand kind of graduate level research material type thing going on here.
Do you have the Portland Oregonian where federal judge Wayne Alley told them that he was warned not to go to work and that was why he was in Oregon?
Was he decided to take a little vacation and not be in town on the 19th?
Yes.
You know, that story was included in a couple of news reports.
And just to kind of summarize the archive, what that is really is just a collection of news reports, whether the Associated Press, Reuters, like you mentioned, the Portland Oregonian.
When I was researching to write a book about this case, which I'm still working on, I basically gathered as many news reports on the case as I could, you know, so I could read them and kind of see what happened.
What about the Rocky Mountain News?
Because they really did a lot of coverage of the trials and then ceased to exist.
They were fantastic.
Actually, Kevin Flynn was with the Denver paper and he had some great pieces on the bombing.
And you mentioned the Rocky Mountain News.
I don't know if it was them or another Colorado paper, but they actually published an FBI teletype in 1998.
When the Internet was in its infancy, they had a website.
There was one called Denver Digital.
And on this website, there is an FBI document that was published.
And this FBI document was written about three weeks after the bombing.
It was written by Thomas P. Ravenel, a special agent out of the San Francisco office.
And in this memorandum, he says that the command post, in view of the fact that the Oklahoma City command post has directed all offices to hold John Doe No.
2 leads in abeyance, we will not investigate these leads.
And so this says basically three weeks after the bombing that the command post has directed other FBI offices to stop investigating John Doe No.
2.
Sorry, hold on just one second.
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Well, and in fact, of course, in Roger Charles' book, Oklahoma City, What the Investigation Missed and Why It Still Matters, he has direct quotes from the federal prosecutors agreeing and admitting that, yes, we deliberately made a choice to preclude further investigation as to who the others unknown to the grand jury might be, because we were afraid that it would jeopardize...
This was their excuse anyway.
I'm not saying this is the totality of the reason in my eyes, but their excuse was, as they explained, they didn't want to jeopardize the death penalty case against McVeigh.
And if they prosecuted a whole gang of his friends, then it would be that much easier for his lawyers to say that he, who they thought was the ringleader and the most responsible — obviously, he was driving the truck that morning, so that's pretty responsible — but that he would be able to deflect responsibility and say that he was just the idiot driving the truck and that Andre Strassmayer or somebody else put him up to it or something like that and would therefore only get life.
So they would rather execute one guy — and I guess they wanted to execute two, I guess, Nichols as well — and let the rest go free, rather than settling for life in prison for all of them.
And of course, I think, well, this is the next section here.
It's not all media collection, right?
It's documents that show, I think, the narrative that really so many have known since 1995 and all the way through and seems to be continually re-verified and ratified by this type of work is the documents that show which FBI undercover informants and Flip State's witnesses helped McVeigh with this attack.
Exactly right.
I believe that one thing that the federal prosecutors maybe might have had on their mind was the 1988 sedition trial in which members of the order — and it was a white supremacist terrorist group and other white supremacists — they were all tried together.
And basically, the federal government failed, and all of those people were acquitted, even though many of them were guilty of some of the crimes they were accused of.
So I think you're exactly on target to say that they wanted to avoid talking about any other accomplices in order to not jeopardize their case against McVeigh.
Yeah.
Which, you know what?
Makes sense if you're a federal prosecutor, and that's the way they think about it.
Which, on the other hand, any reasonable person who, I don't know, isn't a government employee might look at the murder of 170 people or 169 people and say that anyone and everyone responsible for that must be held to account to the nth degree, if at all possible.
And that if that means that some have to only get life instead of death in order to make sure everybody gets a little something, then isn't that the law?
I mean, the law doesn't say that that's within their discretion to let murderers go free in order to guarantee more severe punishments for certain members of the conspiracy or some kind of thing like that.
Certainly not.
I mean, actually, I don't know.
Certainly not.
Maybe maybe within judge made law, they are given that much discretion.
But I have never heard of that other than, you know, on Law and Order on TV.
You know, I agree.
And you mentioned about Judge Wayne Alley.
When you talk about foreknowledge in this case, which you'll see examples of that in many mainstream news reports around 95, 96.
But in the area of foreknowledge, you find exclusively two groups that appeared to have foreknowledge of the bombing.
You have government agencies such as the ATF and then you have neo-Nazis.
And there are four neo-Nazis that we know of, four who had who appeared to have had foreknowledge of the bombing.
And they all have a few things in common.
You know, you had Mark Thomas, a Pennsylvania neo-Nazi, who had foreknowledge of the bombing.
You have Chevy Kehoe.
Wait, wait, slow down.
So what makes you say that Mark Thomas had foreknowledge?
Well, the thing with that is Mark Thomas, basically, he he was implicated as having foreknowledge, I guess you could say, by his longtime his longtime girlfriend.
She was interviewed.
Her name is Donna Marazoff, and she was interviewed by the FBI.
And when being interviewed by FBI Special Agent Hendrickson, she told them that Thomas was over at her house near February of 1995.
And he was ranting and raving about Waco and Ruby Ridge.
And he told her, he said, quote, We are going to get them.
We're going to hit one of their buildings during the middle of the day.
It's going to be a federal building.
And this is on record.
This is in an FBI document.
She told this to the FBI.
And I believe her.
And, you know, some people in the FBI, I think, also believe the various allegations that are made.
But that's just one.
That's Mark Thomas.
You're familiar, I think, with Chevy Kehoe.
Very.
And in fact, Wayne Snell.
So let me remind the audience, if you're old like me at all, if you go back in your memory to the turn of the century, a little before that, they used to show on Real Stories of the Highway Patrol and cops and those different shows.
They would show the same clip over and over again.
It was kind of interesting to see.
It's a, I guess, gray and blue old suburban pulled over on the side of the road and two brothers with handguns in a shootout with state police.
And no one hits anybody.
And they're all just shooting and shooting and shooting at each other for like, I don't know, 45 seconds or something.
And no one gets hit.
And then the cops take the guys away.
And so this is Shane and Chevy Kehoe, the Nazis.
If anybody's ever seen that footage, that's who we're talking about.
And so tell us about them.
Yeah, that you're right.
That footage was aired all the time on Real Stories of the Highway Patrol.
And basically, Shane and Chevy Kehoe, they were both white supremacists and they kind of traveled the country.
They like to hang out in Washington state and also at a place called Elohim City in Oklahoma.
And these were these guys were basically white supremacists.
And the thing about them that indicates foreknowledge is Chevy Kehoe was staying at a place called the Shadows RV Park up in Spokane on the morning of the bombing.
And he went into the office of the Shadows RV Park where they had a TV with cable television.
And he goes in there about 30 minutes before the bombing and tells the manager that he'd like to watch CNN, something that he normally did not do.
And so he goes in there and they turn on CNN.
And when the bombing happens, he's hooting and hollering and he's excited.
And it was as if he knew something was going to happen that morning.
In addition to that, he later was apprehended by law enforcement for a murder, both he and his brother.
And when his brother, Shane, was sentenced, he announced out loud to the entire courtroom.
He said, I'd like to take this time to state that my brother was involved in the bombing of a federal building.
And that got a lot of attention.
U.S. attorneys showed up and Shane Kehoe was sequestered into a room with U.S. attorneys and law enforcement.
And his public defender was asked to leave the room for a moment.
And he did.
And when the public defender may go back in the room, Chevy Kehoe and these attorneys apparently have made some sort of deal because now this guy is allowed to have conjugal visits with his wife.
And well, after that, he never talked about his brother's involvement in any bombing.
I thought you were going to say, and when they got back in the room, he had killed himself.
Well, you have some things like that happening in this case, too, that are rather definitely suspicious.
Now, just real quick, before you go on to the next guy on your list, I want to mention that I think I have the audio of this, but I certainly have the video in my brain of watching Court TV when they reported on Shane's trial.
The incident that you talked about at the, I guess you're saying it was a trailer park.
I thought it was a motel, but either way, that's just my memory.
Well, it was a motel and an RV park.
An RV park, where he told that story about a Chevy coming in early, you know, a couple of hours early and saying, turn on CNN, something big is going to happen and glued to the TV until it did.
And then celebrating when the first reports came across, as you say there.
So I've seen that all myself.
Have I given you a folder of all my audio?
Just my Trinity files, right?
I have some audio that actually might be valuable to you.
Anything I would add to the archive, this archive, basically it has not just over a thousand news reports on the bombing, but also affidavits, FBI documents, ATF documents.
Basically everything I had been collecting when researching this, I decided I wanted to see that online.
So anybody who, if they, you know, when I put my book out, if they read it and they want to go look at these sources, they can go and look at the sources themselves.
You know, anybody could do this, but people just don't take the time to look at the reports and to look at the evidence.
And I'd like to create a place where people can go and access that.
Man, I'm so glad that you did.
I got to tell you, I've had this folder full of Trinity files all this time where he sent me all, you know, copies of all of his court documents for years now.
And I just never had the time or the patience to sit and do the work, to rename everything, retitle everything and recategorize everything and get it all straight.
I've been waiting for you to come and do this.
So thank God you finally did.
Well, you know, I have to take this moment to give a great, you know, great thanks to Roger Charles for his help with this because he's been instrumental in helping get this archive together.
He himself has a great deal of documents on the case.
And you're familiar with Roger.
He's been on your show plenty of times.
And he really is the document guy.
So when I've had questions about something or if I wanted to add a question about a certain witness, I'd ask Roger.
And he would always have something important to add.
And he was instrumental in getting the archive together.
And right now it is kind of in a beta state.
It's not open to the public just yet.
But we are looking towards doing that here.
And the both of you are writing a book each too right now, right?
Well, we are.
I'd like to say I think that Roger's is probably going to be much better than mine.
He's a great researcher.
And his last book was fantastic.
My book, you know, I've been working on it since 2013 on and off.
I'm not a professional writer, you know, a professional investigative journalist like he is.
But the book I'm writing basically is a compendium of accounts of the witnesses, what they saw that morning, you know, two dozen witnesses.
And what all of them saw, which was Timothy McVeigh with one or more people with him that morning.
To this day, none of those people have been apprehended.
By the way, do you have all of them and can you verify whether or not anyone saw him alone?
You know, that's a good question.
I can't say that I have all of them because every now and then, you know, I'll be talking to someone about the bombing and they'll mention a person.
And I hadn't heard of that account before.
There was just one in the news the other day about a DEA agent.
It came out a couple days ago.
It says he saw McVeigh in a vehicle with another man on April 18th, the day before the bombing.
I'd never heard of him before, but I guess he testified at the Nichols State trial.
As far as anyone who had seen McVeigh alone, I think there was one person who testified, a Marine named Michael Norfleet.
He testified to, I believe, seeing McVeigh outside of the Murrah building, walking away, I believe, from the Ryder truck.
But that's definitely the exception, not the rule.
I've got at least 30 people who saw McVeigh that morning and in the weeks before, and they all saw him with other people.
Yeah.
You know, one thing, especially for young people or for people who just were watching the OJ trial instead back then, you know, a lot of this stuff, as you say, it came across in all these important news stories that, you know, were worth saving.
And what would happen, and we see this all the time in different subjects too, where you have a real solid report, you know, where, yes, today, and especially at the trials where the lawyers can call the witnesses and you sort of can't censor them, when it comes right down to that, I mean, actually some of them, like Carol Howe, can be struck and disallowed from testifying at all.
But in any case, sometimes some stuff comes out of the trial and then the reporter comes out and says, well, today we heard from a lot of witnesses who all saw different people with McVeigh at the motel.
And that's the Chinese food delivery man.
And that's the nice lady and her daughter who were celebrating Easter and this and that, whatever it is.
All the different things.
And then, but that's OK, because then tomorrow history starts over again.
And so it doesn't matter that we learned something that doesn't quite fit with the narrative.
We've been told tomorrow the narrative still stands and the new material, the new information is just not included in because it doesn't quite fit.
And so it's just ignored away again.
I wonder how the cops, you would think that, you know, Mr. White at the Daily Planet would say, Clark, get out there and find out why the FBI didn't nail down who else was at the motel.
What's going on with that?
But instead, no, that's over.
You're right.
It was strange because in these news reports, you're correct.
And the reporters would show up to cover the trial.
And any time there would be a witness who gave some testimony, there was maybe kind of a juicy testimony or hearing new details and it would be covered in the paper for a day or two.
And then they would just kind of move on.
And when you see one of those reports, well, that's one thing.
But when you sit back and you look at the totality of the reports and you could sit down and say, I've got a collection of 100 newspaper articles here that paint a narrative that is altogether totally different than what the FBI and the prosecution and McVeigh himself have attested to.
And that's the interesting thing is that McVeigh's position was the very same position that the prosecutors took and that the FBI took.
And that in itself is strange.
I think it's obvious that he was covering for other people.
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Well, OK, so you know what?
I decided that the Nazis at Elohim City and all of that must have done it like J.D. Cash decided way back in 1990 something when relatively speaking, I was still very young.
Plus, that was just a long time ago.
And so maybe it's wrong.
Maybe McVeigh knew these Nazis, but maybe they weren't in on the plot.
And maybe just their names keep getting tossed around because I don't know why they didn't get.
The government never did a big investigation into them all and officially, you know, declared that they were innocent or anything like that.
So it's still sort of this open thing.
But, you know, we sure do see a lot of people.
And I'm not just picking on alternative media types at all and the mainstream, too, and every faction.
Everybody's a truther.
Everybody likes their story and start with their conclusion and see if you can cherry pick it and see if you can make it fit.
And so maybe I'm wrong and maybe those news stories are there, but maybe they don't add up to what I think they do.
What do you think?
Well, that certainly could be the case.
You know, when I started looking at this, I was pretty much convinced that the bombing was carried out by McVeigh and some neo-Nazis.
I was convinced of it by J.D. Cash's reports and by, you know, Carol Howe and her testimony.
But then there are some other things that occurred after that that caused me to kind of step back and say, well, maybe there's more to this.
And, for example, the, you know, the brown truck that was seen, you know, at the scene of the crime.
There was a witness who saw McVeigh in that brown truck with another man.
His name was Leonard Long.
About an hour before the bombing, he sees the brown truck come flying out of the Murrah building's parking garage.
And driving the truck is McVeigh and he's got a passenger with him.
And so you've got right there two people, McVeigh and another person.
And I can't claim to know who these suspects are.
I have a suspicion as to who they are.
And in my book, what I try to do is say this is what the witnesses saw.
And I just report what they saw as according to what was in their FBI report, what they told the FBI.
And I leave it up to the reader to decide, you know, who this might be.
The ideas that I have as to who might be behind this, what were neo-Nazis, I don't really go into that in great detail.
And I know there are probably other researchers who will.
But certainly my mind is open because we don't know who these people are.
Yeah.
Well, and there is another brown pickup truck that can be identified as associated with this case.
It has nothing to do with this guy Hussein Husseini and Jaina Davis' Iraqi-American target, right?
Oh, well, absolutely.
I mean, the witness sighting I just mentioned, Leonard Long, he saw Timothy McVeigh driving this brown truck.
And so when you look at the various witnesses in this case and you look at what they saw, what it comes down to is there were at least three vehicles involved.
There was actually four.
There were two Ryder trucks.
There was one brown pickup truck, and there was the Mercury Marquis.
And when you look at these witnesses and what they saw that morning, all of them saw McVeigh and other individuals, sometimes up to three other people, a witness named Kyle Hunt, for example.
He saw Timothy McVeigh in the Mercury Marquis and two other men in the vehicle with him.
And in front of it, the Ryder truck, someone else is driving the Ryder truck.
So right there, you know, you've got four or five people.
I don't doubt it at all.
In fact, that's one thing that, you know, Jaina Davis said she had two sources that had seen video of the bombing that had been confiscated by the FBI, and both of them said there were two people and that it was not McVeigh who opened the back of the truck to light the fuse.
It was the other guy.
Yes, you know, the video, that's a very good point.
It's an important one.
That also is something that I focus on.
Something that Jesse Trenadue has fought like hell on the courts for years to get his hands on, that he can prove exists, but has been lost or buried or they just lie about it.
You know what?
Jesse has done amazing work in this case, trying to get justice for his brother.
He basically has got the FBI in a FOIA suit where the FBI is frankly not doing a very good job.
The judge in that case does not believe the lies that they have told.
And one thing I'd like to mention about that is, for example, there is an FBI document that came out as a result of Jesse's work, and it is an evidence or inventory log, and it's an inventory of security cameras in the area.
And in this inventory log, it notes right next to a particular video recording whether it is positive or negative in terms of evidentiary value as to whether it shows the suspects.
And there are two recordings which are noted as being positive or showing the suspects, and that is a video recording from the Journal Records Building and a video recording from the Southwestern Bell Building.
And they cover areas where witnesses, if you look at the witness accounts, they're standing right next to the Journal Records Building.
They see McVeigh, John Doe II, and the Mercury Marquis, and it would be on this videotape.
And so these tapes absolutely were suppressed because there were 22 cameras in the area that covered the Murrah Building.
And by the way, shout out to dozens of researchers on this story going back for decades now who've done the work and exposing so many of these documents, the old Secret Service memo records, and who knows what all different facets of this story, all the people who've covered the Jesse Trenendue case and all of the stuff that's come from that, and, you know, it's impossible to remember them all or name them all, but, you know, I know you're not taking credit for all of this.
You're just trying your best to catalog it, but I wouldn't want anyone to think that we weren't grateful for all the people who've done all the hard work in getting this stuff out in the first place, so much of it.
Well, you're right.
There are some excellent researchers on this case.
It's a very small group, but this is a group of people whose work has contributed more than anything.
These people include, like I mentioned, Roger Charles, J.D. Cash, of course, Wendy Painting, Holland Vandenuwenhof.
It's just a small group of people who have done a great deal of research on the case, and all I have done really is collected and collated a large volume of news reports and documents that anyone, I want anyone to be able to look at, and say they wanted to write a paper about the bombing.
They're going to have all the sources they need to do so.
Yeah, good times.
Tell me what you have here about Andreas Strassmeier.
Strassmeier, you know, he's strange.
When you look at him, basically, what you've got to do first, before even considering what he was doing at Elohim City, is look at his background.
Andreas Strassmeier served in the German Army.
He received counterintelligence training in the German Army.
In addition to that, he speaks three languages.
He speaks English, German, and Hebrew.
And for a person who served in counterintelligence, who speaks Hebrew, who has vacationed in Israel a bunch of times, that doesn't sound like a neo-Nazi to me.
A person with that background, who shows up as head of security at a neo-Nazi compound, is obviously working in some sort of informant capacity.
He's pretending.
Neo-Nazis do not vacation in Israel.
Most of them, I'd say, probably don't learn Hebrew.
And so I think that Strassmeier was definitely some sort of federal informant working for the Justice Department.
And I believe that Roger Charles has probably done some of the most work on that area, as well as Ambrose Evans Pritchard.
He did excellent work on that.
And so I believe Strassmeier, I think, absolutely may be a key to this plot, because he knew people who are suspected as having been involved in the bombing.
The four people that I mentioned that had foreknowledge, all four of them have one thing in common, other than being white supremacists, and that is Elohim City, where Strassmeier was head of security.
Obviously a fake neo-Nazi.
By the way, I interrupted you before you got through that list.
You started with Mark Thomas and Chevy Kehoe, and then we went off on tangents.
My fault.
But who else was on that short list?
Well, yeah, we've got Mark Thomas, Chevy Kehoe.
In addition to that, we've got another neo-Nazi named Richard Wayne Snell, who he, in 1983, actually plotted to blow up the Murrah building, along with members of the group called the Covenant, the Sword, and the Arm of the Lord.
They aborted that plot.
And this guy, Snell, he murdered a pawnbroker, and he murdered a state trooper, and he was arrested and put on death row for murdering the pawnbroker.
He was actually scheduled to be executed on April 19, 1995.
Now, the Bureau of Prisons, the head of the Bureau of Prisons, or an official with the Bureau of Prisons, I should say, named Alan Ables, was quoted in news reports stating that in the weeks before the bombing, Richard Wayne Snell said that there was going to be a bombing on April 19.
He even said that at first it would be blamed on Middle Easterners.
He appeared to have some sort of knowledge that, more than just saying a bombing was going to happen, that level of detail to say that at first it's going to be blamed on Middle Easterners.
So this guy, Snell, was being visited up until the day of his death by Robert Millar, who was the pastor, quote-unquote pastor, spiritual advisor, and head of Elohim City.
He would go and visit Snell in prison.
And so Snell was plugged into the neo-Nazi network up until the day of his death.
And this guy, Alan Ables, with the prison official – this prison official, Alan Ables, I should say, is quoted as saying that Snell is on record stating that there would be a bombing on April 19.
And, of course, that's exactly what happened.
In addition to Snell, there's another man named Louie Beam.
Louie Beam was a former Klansman and a white supremacist.
And Louie Beam, in terms of having foreknowledge, where that comes from is the FBI was contacted by a man named Roy Boyd.
Roy Boyd was a white supremacist, and he was in prison at the time of the bombing, and he was friends with Louie Beam.
And he told the FBI that Louie Beam had basically told him in 1994, Louie Beam had told him that there was going to be a bombing of a federal building.
And Louie Beam said that it was going to be during the day, just like Mark Thomas, and stated that it was going to be in Oklahoma City.
So he had apparently precise knowledge of some of the details because he told this guy Boyd that, and Boyd told the FBI, and it was recorded in an FBI 302 report.
And so all of these people, all four of them, Kehoe, Snell, Thomas, and Beam are white supremacists and had visited Elohim City or knew people who'd visited there.
And so I think that gives you a clue as to who McVeigh's accomplices might have been, because how else are you going to know about this bombing before it happens?
All right, so now tell me about the Aryan Republican Army bank robbery ring and anything you have on them, or their involvement in this, if you think.
You know what?
The first I heard about that was reading J.D. Cash's articles, and he talked about this group.
And that really is what clued me into it.
And then later in 2001, Professor Mark Ham wrote a book called In Bad Company.
It was about the Aryan Republican Army.
And basically this is a group of neo-Nazi bank robbers who, from 1994 through 1996, robbed 22 banks.
They patterned themselves after the terrorist group called the Order.
They also followed an essay that Louie Beam wrote.
I previously mentioned Louie Beam, and he wrote an article called – or an essay called Leaderless Resistance.
It was about forming terrorist cells.
So they were basically robbing banks not to enrich themselves but to get money for the neo-Nazi white supremacist movement.
They donated money to people.
One of the people I mentioned, Mark Thomas, they gave thousands of dollars to.
Mark Thomas actually recruited two members of the Aryan Republican Army.
That group consisted of Peter Langan, Richard Lee Guthrie, Kevin McCarthy, Scott Stediford, and Michael Brescia.
And basically all of these guys either were arrested and served prison sentences.
But their connection to the bombing is this.
It's been speculated that Timothy McVeigh actually participated in some of their bank robberies.
He told his sister that he had been involved in some bank robberies, and he actually gave her some money that he said came from those robberies.
And in addition to that, you've also got an FBI document in which the Aryan Republican Army is referred to as McVeigh and his associates.
This is an FBI memo, and they're actually calling the group McVeigh and his associates.
So it's been speculated that members of this group might be involved in the bombing.
But more than speculation, two members of the group actually implicated other members.
Richard Lee Guthrie, before he met his untimely demise, told Mark Thomas that Kevin McCarthy was involved in the bombing of the Murrah building.
And so he implicated McCarthy in the bombing.
In addition to that, Peter Langan, a member now serving a life sentence, also implicated Kevin McCarthy in the bombing.
McCarthy himself turned state's evidence and became an informant, and he helped put the rest of the gang behind bars.
He served a short prison sentence in witness protection.
He was let out of prison, and he now currently lives in Philadelphia, where he operates his own woodworking business.
He's a free man, and he's been implicated by at least two people in having been involved in the bombing.
All right.
So then I guess I already kind of jumped the gun on all this before, assuming your conclusion and that kind of deal.
But why do you think they let these guys get away with helping McVeigh with this mass murder, and including of a bunch of government employees and their babies?
Right.
I've thought about that a lot.
And I think that the only reason to justify or for there to be some sort of cover up is I believe that one or more of the accomplices was probably an FBI informant.
And now that doesn't mean that the FBI could have stopped the bombing.
It doesn't mean this informant could have called it off.
But in the eyes of the public, if it came out that the federal government had one or more informants within the bombing operation, there would be 168 wrongful death lawsuits versus the Justice Department.
It'd be an embarrassment to the FBI, and it would just be a major public relations debacle.
I believe that is why these guys were basically just prosecuted for the bank robberies and their involvement in the bombing.
They just kind of, you know, look the other way, just simply because of the liability that the Justice Department and the FBI would have if it came out that they might have known about this in advance.
Yeah.
You know what?
I think the anecdote that really makes that clear is in Ambrose Evans Pritchard's book, The Reporter for The Daily Telegraph.
The book, you know, the publisher named it The Secret Life of Bill Clinton, but it's not about his private life.
It's about his presidency.
The introduction is about Waco, and then it's about Oklahoma City and the Arkansas side of the Iran-Contra, Ronald Reagan cocaine ring.
And then I guess the last part is about Vince Foster, which is a little less substantive if you ask me, but I don't know.
But anyway, in there he says that the ATF special agent in charge of the Elohim City investigation took a plane ride with Bob Ricks, who people might remember was the spokesman for the FBI during the Waco massacre two years previous, and was the special agent in charge of the Tulsa office of the FBI in 1995.
And that he told them, yeah, we're not going to have you screw everything up like you did at Waco.
We're in charge of this.
You know, FBI's big brother.
ATF works under Treasury Department.
DOJ can pull rank on them.
And so he did and told them, you're off this case.
We're going to handle it and then didn't handle it.
You know, that's exactly right.
The ATF had an ongoing investigation at Elohim City.
They had at least one informant there.
And just as a quick addendum, right after the bombing, an ATF document states that it is believed members of Elohim City participated in the Oklahoma City bombing via conspiracy.
This is an ATF document.
But going back to what you said, the ATF is doing this investigation there.
They're investigating Andreas Drasmier.
They're investigating Dennis Mahon of a group called White Aryan Resistance.
And they've got an informant.
They're setting up things.
It's starting to look like they might do a raid.
And you're exactly right.
What happens is Bob Ricks out of the Tulsa FBI office basically comes in and says, no, your office do not do anything.
Stop.
And my personal belief, and this is just speculation, but I believe that the reason Bob Ricks and the FBI stopped the ATF and what they were doing is the FBI probably had their own ongoing undercover operation there.
And they did not want the ATF interfering with it.
Yeah, I mean, that much has been clear since 1995, too.
Everybody already knew.
I'm trying to remember, when did the Carol Howe story first break?
I mean, this has been known all along.
1996, yeah, 1996, and then the Ambrose Evans Pritchard book that you mentioned, which the chapter on Oklahoma City is excellent, that came out I want to say in either 96 or 97.
But in addition to Carol Howe, I mean she's one person who's this ATF informant who's at Elohim City, and she stated that Timothy McVeigh was there.
In addition to that, you also have the Southern Poverty Law Center who had their own informant at Elohim City.
And the head of the Southern Poverty Law Center at the time, Morris Deas, and J.D. Cash covered this, but Morris Deas had said that their informant placed Timothy McVeigh at Elohim City 15 to 20 times.
These are just two examples.
Carol Howe, the informant, and the SPLC's informant both put McVeigh at Elohim City.
And they are just two.
In addition to that, there are others.
There's an informant named John Schultz.
John Schultz was covered by the Associated Press.
He stated that he saw Timothy McVeigh at Elohim City.
And so you've got all these reports out there, and anybody can sit down and do this.
They can go and they can look at the news reports, and they can look at them in chronological order and ultimately start to figure out what happened.
All right, now let's go back to Morris Deas.
He's in big trouble this week.
Finally fired from the SPLC.
There's a big story in The New Yorker today from a former staffer about just what a put-on the whole thing is.
And what a racist and horrible bigot Morris Deas is himself and the rest of this.
So that's kind of fun.
But anyway, get back to that real quick, because this is something that I had spoken about with J.D. Cash before.
And I know that he had confronted Morris Deas, and yet I bet you've listened to that J.D. Cash interview where we talked about that a lot more recently than I have.
And I honestly am not capable right now of putting together a tight narrative of exactly what it was.
I don't remember specifically what it was that J.D. Cash said that or what it was that Deas had admitted or what paperwork exactly Cash had uncovered that showed that it was Andre Strassmayer who was Morris Deas' informant at Elohim City, and that he was running Strassmayer actually as a favor to the FBI because after Waco, Janet Reno had put these guidelines on, making it more difficult to infiltrate these kind of groups.
And so they used Deas as a cutout and just had a little arrangement so that they could keep their informant going and that this was Strassmayer.
So now you tell me if what I just said is right or what, and how do you know?
Well, you know, I think that you're right.
It's my suspicion that that's correct.
You mentioned, for example, the difficulty in getting an informant on the ground.
That is true.
In order to do that, the FBI has to have what's called a major case undercover operation.
And in order to get that, you have to present a great deal of evidence.
And then headquarters have to sign off on authorizing this.
And so because of the red tape and because of how difficult it was, it's not implausible to think that SPLC might have served as a cutout in that capacity.
Now, I don't know whether or not SPLC's informant at Elohim City was Andrea Strassmayer.
I know that J.D. Cash believed that.
What I can say about their informant is that Morris Deas was in, I want to say it was in Colorado.
He was at an event and he was taking questions.
And anyway, during the discussion, he mentioned, yes, we had an informant there and he saw McVeigh there many times.
And yeah, he was confronted about it.
And so when it comes down to the actual hard facts, I don't know what J.D. had to say that Strassmayer was this informant.
He may have had something.
It may simply be evidence that I'm not aware of.
In terms of it being a possibility, it's certainly plausible because of the fact that why would an agency, a civilian agency, be running an undercover informant?
Isn't that strange?
That's very strange.
You know, there's a lot of strange stuff surrounding this whole story.
No question about it.
I mean, we're just scratching the surface and in no particular order here today.
But, you know, I guess I really need to take a road trip somewhere and just listen to all my J.D. Cash interviews in a row there and see what I think about some things.
It's been so long since I've been able to to really do any work on this story.
But, you know, he really was on the case.
He had a lot of it figured out off the air, too, sometimes for hours.
You know, I had jobs where I drove for a living.
So there were I remember one time driving around talking with him just forever.
And you know what?
This is sort of I meant to say this earlier about at the part about maybe I'm wrong about what I think about this was that I always was a bombs in the building guy.
I always thought that.
And of course, you know, bombs in the building on 9-11 became a huge assumption among conspiracists on the 9-11 story.
And that came from Oklahoma City.
I mean, it was obvious for people who were already Oklahoma truthers.
It was like, well, I wonder if there were bombs in there, too.
And it kind of took off right from there, which I disagree with, actually.
But anyway, I guess I disagree with myself about Oklahoma City.
In fact, I found a tape of my old first radio show from 1999 where I'm making a huge deal about the seismologist Ray Brown saying it looked to him like there must have been demolition charges in the building on the first day there.
And then all the stories of the bombs that didn't go off.
But then it was J.D. who told me that, no, no, no, that's not right at all.
And General Benton Parton's calculations about taking out the columns are completely unreliable.
He'll move his crater wherever he needs it.
Right.
No, you're right about that.
And he explained, too, and this is some serious business right here, too, man, that they did.
There's no question that they called off the rescue operations three times, maybe four, all day long, over and over again.
They called off the rescues and there was outright testimony sworn by firefighters.
I was in the middle of saving this lady and I had to leave.
And when I got back, she was dead and stuff like this.
It was some serious business.
And they called that rescue off over and over and over all day because they said they found undetonated bombs in the building.
Now, J.D.'s story to me, what he told me was that that was a ruse for really covering up for the ATF sneaking stuff out of the building that they weren't supposed to have.
Yes, including bombs, but not that they were attached to the columns, but just that they had bombs in their office and they weren't supposed to do that and they were going to get in trouble.
He said they even had a tow missile like the kind that Obama and John Brennan gave to al-Qaeda in Syria, the wire-guided anti-tank missiles.
As part of some sting operation, supposedly, they had it and some money and God knows whatever else they had up there.
And so they let all those people die with fake bomb scares and then seeded this whole thing about, well, somebody must have been able to get in there and plant these bombs.
So who must that have been, etc., etc., which J.D. said was totally a red herring.
So now what do you think about all that?
Well, now that's a very good question, and I'd like to preface it by saying that undoubtedly in the rubble of the building there were found explosives, munitions, like you mentioned, a tow missile, grenades.
The ATF had basically an armory of explosives directly above a daycare.
And so what's happened here basically is, just as you said, they called off rescue operations in order to basically get contraband out of the rubble, stuff the ATF should not have had in there that they did have, including unexploded explosives, training devices.
Now, I like to look at it this way.
You can have all of this material in the building, the ATF kept it, and at the same time you also can have a situation by which explosives were used on the building.
Now, I'm not an expert when it comes to explosives by no means, but I will say this.
When I look at the bomb damage on the building and I see that columns that were further away from the truck were demolished, and then columns that are closer to the truck are left standing in this asymmetrical pattern, that makes me suspicious.
See, I gotta say, you sound just like me for years and years and years and years.
I made that case.
But you know what, too?
There really is an obvious counter to that, which is that you had these bigger, thicker columns at the bottom, that then there was the truss that went across the concrete giant thing at the third floor level, and then the columns got skinnier from there up.
And that the reason that B3 is gone is because 3 is the one that was adjacent to the thick column in the front that was destroyed.
And so that one was closer to the truck, and when that collapsed, that's what pulled 3 down, too.
I mean, I wasn't there, but that makes enough sense that, Occam's razor-wise, that might be a simpler explanation for the seemingly kind of weird asymmetric damage there.
No, that is a good point, and that certainly could be the case.
This is a case that I like to keep my mind open about.
But I will say, number one, what you mentioned about General Partin, you're absolutely right.
He had the bomb crater in the wrong area on his diagrams, and the size was all wrong.
And so I just discount that completely.
Yeah, and he said, oh, it had to have been a fuel-air bomb from the Air Force Armory.
Like, come on.
That's BS.
That's kooky, and I like to stick to really to those facts that prove that Timothy McVeigh was involved in this bombing with other people.
That was my impetus for researching the case, for starting to write about it, for gathering this material.
So some of these other things are ancillary topics, but they're certainly ones worthy of discussion.
Yeah, they are important.
And when you mentioned the explosives that were in the building, the ATF – I mean, a tow missile?
Come on.
There are children in this building.
There's a daycare.
You don't have missiles and military-grade semtex explosives.
But, you know, the ATF did, and they did a lot of things wrong that day, including not showing up to work.
And that, to me, also is very suspicious.
Yeah, I mean, and there were multiple reports that the bomb squad, maybe local police or maybe it was ATF in their full battle gear, mistaken for the bomb squad or something.
But there were multiple witnesses that saw them there at 8 o'clock in the morning, and they hung around for a while and then left, and the bomb showed up at 9.
Absolutely.
Debbie Nakanashi, who worked at the post office across the street from the Murrah building, she actually saw bomb sniffer dogs going through the bushes by the courthouse.
Not at the Murrah building, but by the courthouse.
In addition to Debbie, you also have a private investigator named Claude Chris, who he stated that he saw the bomb squad out there that morning about an hour before the bombing.
You've got another witness named Norma Joslyn, who – an article about her I have in the archive.
It was published in her hometown newspaper, the Panola Watchman.
It's this article talking about a local person, survivor.
She survived the bombing, and she happened to mention offhandedly that when she went into work that morning, there was a bomb squad truck in the parking lot of where she worked, which was right by the Murrah building and right across from the courthouse.
And so there are multiple people who spotted that, and to me, that goes back to foreknowledge.
You've got two groups that appear to have had foreknowledge of the bombing.
You've got white supremacists, and then you've got folks who appear to be in government.
We're talking bomb squad.
We're talking ATF.
And so this tells me that perhaps some in government got foreknowledge of the bombing because there were informants inside of the operation, and that's how they found out about it.
Well, on that particular point, I think Michael Hinton was another witness there.
Do you have him?
I recall him on a video, but I actually – I did not quote Michael Hinton, but I know you were talking about he was the fellow.
He was on a bus.
Yeah, I think so.
Yeah.
British guy, right?
The black British guy.
Yes, British accent, absolutely.
But there are enough other witnesses to the bomb squad.
I cover about four or five of them in the book.
One witness I would like to mention here that's important, I think, is a man named Kyle Hunt.
And about 30 minutes before the bombing, Kyle Hunt is in traffic.
And this gentleman was the vice president of the Bank of Oklahoma or a vice president at the Bank of Oklahoma responsible for credit and collections and managing real estate properties for the bank.
He's going to a meeting that he has that morning, and he's late for the meeting.
So he's checking his watch.
And Kyle Hunt basically was driving through downtown about four blocks from the Murrah building where he encountered Timothy McVeigh and three other individuals.
And so basically Hunt's late for his meeting.
He's looking at his watch, and he testified to the grand jury that it was about 830 in the morning when he pulled up at a stoplight.
And right next to him was a Ryder truck and followed close behind it the four-door Mercury.
He states that the Ryder truck he got a good look at, he got a good look at the Mercury, and he told the FBI that the sedan was driven by Timothy McVeigh.
He identified him later.
And in the vehicle with him were two other men.
So you've got McVeigh, two other people in the Mercury, and at least one person in the Ryder truck.
So right there, I mean, who are these people?
How come they haven't been apprehended?
This guy is not a nut.
He's a credible witness.
He wasn't seeking publicity.
He just talked to the FBI, and he talked to the grand jury, and that's it.
And his testimony and his citing, I think, of what he saw that day, to me, serves as enough evidence or proof that there were other people involved.
Yeah, man.
So you know what?
Hurry up and write a book.
I wish I could stop time and catch up on this and really put together what I think is the very best case.
But sort of like this interview and sort of like this website.
It's somewhat organized, and there's a lot of themes and a lot of anecdotes and a lot of factual details backed up with solid reporting and documents here, of course.
But I think we're short of a solid narrative about, look, man, there's a very clear sort of story of what happened here with 10% probabilities in either direction for the involvement of this or that particular person on it or whatever it is.
You know what I mean?
I wish we could do better.
That's all I'm saying.
And I think Roger Charles is great.
But I'm worried that Andrew Gumbel really watered down the work that J.D. Cash, who had died by then, of course, and Roger had done all that time.
And so it's good.
In fact, I kind of appreciate it for being wheat tea because I think it's a nice introduction for very official mainstream centrist think tank type people to say, hey, maybe there's something to this.
And in fact, Roger didn't even know this.
I was talking with Roger the other day, and he didn't even know this.
But Andrew Gumbel did an hour long presentation with Peter Bergen, the Al-Qaeda expert from the New America Foundation, which is like CFR Jr., very centrist, very moderate Democrat, basically.
Anne-Marie Slaughter and Stephen Clemens and those guys at the New America Foundation.
And Bergen himself, a very, you know, a CNN expert on terrorism, et cetera, very official, acceptable centrist type people.
And Gumbel was able to say to them, hey, guys, here's some things you didn't know that like, you know what?
This Strassmeier thing might have something to it.
And it seems like some of these Nazis got away.
And so their spin kind of was Nazis are dangerous, man.
We need to look out for that, which is fine.
But that was sort of their extra incentive to cover this, to talk about the danger of right wing lawlessness and that sort of deal, you know.
So that's useful.
But I want the Bible on this thing, finally.
There's been so many books written, but I want the ones.
So I think that may be you, dude.
You're the one with the pile of footnotes, better organized than anyone I've ever seen, I think.
Well, thank you for that.
You know, I can say that I don't think my book's going to be the end all and be all.
What it's going to be essentially is it's going to present a chronological account of what the witnesses saw.
OK, so the chapter two is called The Witnesses.
And it goes from just months before the bombing up to the day of the bombing.
And in chronology, it presents an account of what the witnesses saw.
In addition to that, I include documents in the back of the book that back up, you know, what these witnesses saw.
And by the way, is that just on one narrative or everybody who disagrees with each other, too?
Well, you know what?
That's a good question.
What I tried to do is I took all of the witnesses who I felt were credible, who I felt had something to say, who could not be impeached.
And I laid it all out.
And a couple of them, sure, they might conflict.
And I let the reader decide what they want to take away from that.
That's the correct answer, by the way.
Thank you.
That's right.
You have to make your own determination.
And in the book, I cover two witnesses, in fact, who I personally don't believe are very credible.
And I illustrate in one of their cases a witness named Jane Graham.
I lay out what she says she saw.
And her story has changed considerably.
And she is the only just about the only witness in the book where I actually state this.
This account may not be entirely credible because the story has changed so much, but it's worth repeating here so you can read it.
But by and large, all of the other people, what they said they saw has been the same since day one.
You mentioned a guy earlier, Jeff Davis, the delivery man, delivered Chinese food at the Dreamland Motel.
He goes and delivers food.
And the man who answers the door is not Timothy McVeigh.
And this this guy was interviewed by the FBI probably almost half a dozen times.
And he said that these FBI people were hostile to him.
They wanted him to get him to change his story.
And that right there tells me that there's something suspicious going on.
Yeah.
Oh, no.
They were just offended that he would have such an agenda to twist the truth.
This Chinese food delivery man who has no extra whatsoever.
Right.
Like he's got it.
Exactly.
He has some incentives to lie.
And by the way, on Jane Graham, no offense to her because she seems like such a nice lady.
But I got to concur with you that in everything that I saw of her, I just threw up my hands.
I thought nothing that she said, you know, made any sense really or agreed with itself from from statement to statement.
And I finally decided there just was nothing to that.
Yeah.
She had an affidavit in 1996, a written affidavit.
Then she had a video affidavit in 97.
Both of those matched up almost exactly.
And then later in around the mid 2000s, she comes out and says, oh, yeah.
Basically, to recap, she says she saw some men inside the Murrah building with explosives.
What looked like putty and plans for the building and the implication being that they're going to put in bombs or something.
Well, her later testimony in the mid 2000s, she says that one of these men was Andreas Strassmeier.
And we don't know how did she come to that determination?
Was she shown a photo spread?
We don't know.
And so she she was one thing, too, is she was and this may not be her fault.
I mean, she's just some lady.
It's not like she's a media personality or anything.
But, you know, in her video statement and there's a couple of different ones.
I think there's the one is in the living room with the Porsche clock.
And then I think one is on a park bench somewhere or something.
And in both, she's just completely incoherent.
And many of her statements don't even have beginnings and ends and don't really make sense.
Well, yeah, she has a very stream of consciousness sort of.
Bring up important points and not say the not answer the obvious question raised, you know.
So you saw this guy and this and that.
But then what did you do or whatever?
Right.
Like she doesn't the the the obvious follow up question.
She doesn't answer that.
She goes on to the next thing without really tying up any loose end at all.
So anyway, I don't want to just pick on her, but I didn't want to get anyone distracted down that loose hair.
Red herring kind of loose.
I agree with you.
I think she's probably well intentioned.
She's, you know, a nice lady.
But when I see someone whose story has changed, that gives me reason to to wonder.
And when it changes very significantly to where now she's identifying one of these people.
And so to me, that's getting away from from the main goal, which is let's look at credible witnesses like Kyle Hunt, you know, vice president at the Bank of Oklahoma.
Or, for example, another woman, another person named Dina Hunt.
Dina Hunt is and was an Oklahoma City police officer.
OK, she was a police officer in Oklahoma City as police service technician.
And shortly after.
Well, basically, she she saw the writer truck driving down Fifth Street.
And in her testimony to the FBI, she described seeing this writer truck going very slow, approximately five miles per hour.
She saw a driver who was a white male between 30 and 40, very short hair, light blonde hair.
And she identified a second person sitting in the truck with him.
She said she saw two people.
And I think that is an example of another credible witness.
This is someone who is a police officer who is not prone to making up things and reports.
And there are just dozens of people just like her who all saw multiple people that morning.
Yeah.
Mike Maraz at the tire shop was an important one, too.
Indeed.
Actually, Dina Hunt, her sighting occurred about five minutes right after they had left Johnny's tire.
For anyone in the audience who doesn't know, Johnny's tire was in an automotive shop, a repair shop.
And basically, Timothy McVeigh in the writer truck with another person in the truck with him pull into Johnny's tire.
And they are witnessed by three people, by Mike Maraz, by his manager, Byron Marshall, and by his co-worker, Alan Goral.
All three of them were interviewed by the FBI.
And Mike Maraz actually was taken downtown to do a photo – or not a photo lineup, but an actual physical lineup with McVeigh.
McVeigh is in this lineup with other men, and Maraz points him out.
So the FBI took this guy very seriously, and basically McVeigh pulls into Johnny's tire and asks for directions to the Murrah building, which I find a little unusual.
If you're going to do a bombing, you think you would know where you're going, but evidently they were there for some reason.
And this guy, Mike Maraz, spoke to McVeigh, gave him directions, saw him, saw a second person in the truck, and he had two co-workers who were also interviewed by the FBI, Byron Marshall and Alan Goral.
And they both said the same thing, that this truck pulled in with two people in it.
And then just as he gave these directions, the next thing you know, Dina Hunt sees the Ryder truck driving down the very street that Maraz had directed him to.
And so when you lay out the witness accounts like this, they almost line up to where you can see, okay, they went here, and then they went here, and then they went here.
Very few of them overlap or contradict one another.
All right, so you know what?
We're all lost in the morass of these details and all these small proofs of the thing and all that.
And it's been so long, but I'm going to take a moment to summon some moral outrage here.
You know, this guy, Glenn Wilburn, died before getting justice for his two little grandsons, and he's just one of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of survivors of the victims of that attack, including an entire daycare center worth of children.
And you think, you know, I think most of the time, you know, obviously the government, they hate our guts.
I mean, they don't care about us at all, but you would think that they would care about their own office workers in their own building enough that to betray them this way is just Hitlerian or something.
It's just incredible.
And for them to sit there and shrug, again, to the Charles and Gumbel book where the federal prosecutors fess up, and the guy says, it's this insane sentence full of quadruple negatives and who knows what.
But he says something like, you know, if you had to poll everyone in the office, the men and women who prosecuted the case, if you had to put them all around a table and ask them if they think that nobody didn't not follow up on every single thing, then I think that most of them would raise their hands or whatever.
You know what I mean?
He makes it confusing.
But what he's saying is, he's saying we all would admit, there's no question, that we let them go.
We chose to.
That's exactly right.
They were all asked, you know, they said, if anyone here believes that McVeigh had other people who helped him with this, you know, raise your hand and that they all would have raised their hands.
And I've just become very cynical in looking at these news reports and reading about the case and seeing what the behavior of prosecutors and government officials, you know, it's shameful.
You know, it's shameful and it's absolutely a travesty of justice.
Even some of these witnesses who they ended up testifying at trial and the prosecutors tried to make it sound like, you know, that these people are making things up.
Another man named Morris Cooper.
Morris Cooper was an employee of the Kerr-McGee Oil Company.
And in the morning of the bombing at about just after 8 a.m., he observed Timothy McVeigh and John Doe No.
2 running towards a yellow Mercury Marquis that's parked in the Kerr-McGee company's parking lot.
He observes these two men walking away from the 5th Street YMCA and getting into the Mercury Marquis.
He testified at the Nichols trial, and prosecutors actually tried to say that he was lying, that he was making up a story.
And sure enough, what happens is it comes out in 2001, the FBI released thousands of documents that were found to have been withheld from the defense team.
And among those documents was an FBI lead sheet that shows that Morris Cooper had indeed contacted the FBI just two days after the bombing.
And so – and Wendy Painting writes about this really well in her book, where basically dissidents or people who disagree with the official narrative are almost made out to be themselves terrorists or somehow conflated to be supporters of McVeigh.
And that's absolutely not the case.
I think that dissidents – these are people who want justice, who want the truth, and who want the people responsible for these murders to actually be apprehended and put in prison.
Well, and you know, what they did at the same time was they said, never mind the Nazis, the actual men who were involved in this thing.
But instead, every militiaman and every right-wing patriot – and in fact, hell, the Republicans in Rush Limbaugh, too.
Everybody to the right of Rush, and maybe even including him and his audience, which that should go without saying for people who don't understand that that is very centrist, acceptable conservative republicanism.
Nothing very outrageous at all.
But the idea was that anybody, really, who didn't like the U.S. government or Bill Clinton had all done the Oklahoma bombing.
Every white man with a gun in the country had done the Oklahoma bombing.
The militia that told McVeigh, get the hell out of here, you Nazi, they had done the Oklahoma bombing, when the actual Nazis who had actually done the Oklahoma bombing were allowed to get away with it scot-free.
And there are many people, including myself for a long time, because what the hell, I was young and happy to jump to conclusions, why not?
They might as well have deliberately done this attack just to exploit it and blame it on the radical right, anti-government right-wing in the Bill Clinton years, because that is how cynically they exploited it.
Just the same as with people assuming that Cheney did 9-11, because he exploited it to such an extent that, I mean, if you're willing to exploit the death of innocent people to the nth degree, what are you not willing to do?
It's pretty easy for people to see it that way, and that's how horrible it was.
That's what they tried, at least, to do with it, and it really worked.
They really did shut down the entire militia movement that had grown up after Waco there with that.
No, you're absolutely right.
Immediately after the bombing, it was linked directly to right-wing talk radio.
It was linked to militias, and certainly there are some dangerous people in militias, but there's nothing inherently wrong with having a citizen's militia or being a constitutionalist.
But it certainly was something that – these people were demonized after the Oklahoma City bombing, and it was, again, just disgusting.
It was something that you see happen now.
Anytime there's a tragedy, immediately before addressing those people whose lives were impacted by it, people are calling for gun control immediately.
And the same thing happened right after the Oklahoma City bombing.
It was cynically used to try and paint Bill Clinton's political opposition as murderers.
They were trying to link them with Timothy McVeigh and memetically propagate that into the minds of the audience and the minds of people.
Like you said, that's what was done, and it was shameful, just absolutely shameful.
Yeah, still is.
All right, listen, tell me this, Richard, if people are really serious about this, because you don't want to open it up to the general public yet.
It's not really ready for that.
But if people are really serious about getting into this and they want to contact you and you want to vet them and see if you want to let them into this site to check this material out and start this up, how would they get ahold of you?
Yeah, sure.
If anybody wants access to the archive, I'd be happy to create an account on the site.
Right now it's simply just being tested because it's only been around now for a couple weeks.
I got the site up, and if anybody wants access to it, they can email me.
My email address is rbooth, like telephone booth, r-b-o-o-t-h-775-at-yahoo.com.
What's a telephone booth?
Right.
That shows my age.
Sorry, yeah.
No, listen, man, I can't tell you how much I appreciate this, and I have the tab open here permanently for some rainy day.
I'll get to it eventually and see what I can see in here.
Well, we hope to add more to it.
Roger has a lot of documents and materials, and he might donate some of that.
We hope to be able to get more material added to this archive and then open it up to the public so that anybody who wants to research it or if they wanted to write about the bombing or they're just curious, they can go and they can read the FBI 302 reports.
They can read FBI teletypes or news reports that talk about surveillance video, which shows the writer truck with two people in it, and they can see the evidence for themselves.
By the way, were my Trinity files helpful at all, or you already had all that?
You know, they were, actually.
There were a couple things in there that I added to the archives.
There was a scanned copy of James Ridgway's article from Mother Jones and Search of Jonathan No.
2.
It was excellent.
I had a digital version of that, but not an actual scanned copy.
And there was also a defense document in your archives that Trinity had introduced as evidence.
It was the McVeigh defense summary of Andrea Strassmere, and that was not something I had seen, and so that I added as well.
I did get a lot of Trinity documents from Wendy Painting, and also J.M. Berger had a lot of them up on his website.
You had found my old website of them a long time ago, too, right?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, that's how I initially came across your name, is I'm looking for things online related to the bombing.
I came across your site.
I don't know if that's still up anymore, but I did have like a trinityfiles.html somewhere where it had links to them all.
Yeah, and that was great because very few people have this material online.
J.M. Berger had some of it on his site, and then you had some material up there, and I'd like this material to be available for everybody.
Another thing that you mentioned in a previous interview, you'd mentioned to Roger getting J.D. Cash's articles online because it'd be a shame to see his research and his articles disappear.
And I've never seen them in one good category where they're all together in one place.
I've only seen them all over the place, and many of them in 1.0 web format where there's some goofy background graphic.
Yeah, I've got probably about 80% of his stuff.
I'm missing a few reports here and there, which I know Roger has some hard copies, and I hope to get those from him.
But, yeah, so if anybody wants access to the archive, they can just email me at rbooth775 at yahoo.com, and I'll be happy to create an account for you.
Go in there and download whatever you want and search.
One thing about this is you can search for a certain term.
Say you want to search for Kehoe, such as Chevy Kehoe.
You search for that.
This will search through all of the PDFs in the archive and return to you a list of any article where your search term is mentioned.
So I'm hoping that it's a good research tool for someone who might want to look into this.
So, in other words, like if it's a PDF file where it's actually a snapshot of a document, a photocopy of a document, you have it tagged with any relevant terms anyway, so it'll come up still anyway.
Is that what you're saying?
Well, more than that, PDF files in there that I have, they have optical character recognition on them.
So if you could do a search term, and if that term appears in the article anywhere, it will return.
So you're saying even if it's the kind of PDF where you would not be able to highlight one word at a time or anything, it can still search anyway?
Well, yes.
The software that the website uses actually will automatically OCR a PDF file that you upload.
Cool.
But what I usually do is… For all I know, that technology has existed for 20 years, but this is the first I've ever heard of it.
Well, it's a feature with the software that I'm using.
It's an open source software.
So yes, any articles that are in PDF format are fully searchable.
Great.
Okay, listen, once this thing is ready to go live, we'll have you back on the air to talk about it and invite people in.
But for now, it's rbooth… What?
It is rbooth775 at yahoo.com.
Okay, great.
All right.
Thanks, Richard.
Appreciate it.
Thank you for having me on, Scott.
My pleasure.
All right, you guys, that's Richard Booth on the Oklahoma bombing.
All right, y'all, thanks.
Find me at libertarianinstitute.org, at scotthorton.org, antiwar.com, and reddit.com slash scotthortonshow.
Oh, yeah, and read my book, Fool's Errand, Timed and the War in Afghanistan at foolserrand.us.
