All right, y'all, welcome to the Scott Horton Show.
I am the Director of the Libertarian Institute, Editorial Director of Antiwar.com, author of the book Fool's Errand, Time to End the War in Afghanistan, and I've recorded more than 5,000 interviews going back to 2003, all of which are available at scotthorton.org.
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Okay, guys, on the line, I've got the great Tim Shorrock, usually writes for The Nation, but we reprinted this one at least here at antiwar.com.
Washington hawks are softening their hard line on sanctions against North Korea.
You don't say, sir.
Well, it's just a few voices, but at least there's some change here and maybe some possibility of some flexibility towards North Korea.
And I think the COVID-19 crisis all over the world is opening people's eyes to the need to help other countries, including humanitarian support for North Korea.
So maybe there's some small changes here.
Like I said in the article, it's not huge, but it's a step, right?
Just recognizing that the U.S. needs to be flexible in its negotiations if we want to settle this terrible, long-running dispute with North Korea and help Korea get on a path towards peace.
Yeah.
Well, you know, I was just talking with the great Phil Weiss at the Mondoweiss blog, and we were ending with, you know, in every crisis, just like when Netanyahu stayed in office, in every crisis is an opportunity, America right now could be absolutely killing Iran and North Korea, both with kindness.
We are just going to deluge you with lifted sanctions and aid and medicine and anything that we can do to help you.
And we are just going to murder those old hard feelings.
The past is over.
It's a brand new day for this whole planet Earth.
Why in the world should we have beef with North Korea?
Let's just settle this right now.
I totally agree.
It's interesting to see.
I mean, it's terrible to see.
I mean, you know, the other day, you know, Pompeo actually said they're going to increase sanctions on Iran during this time, and Iran is suffering terribly from this COVID-19 crisis.
And they've been a little bit more flexible on North Korea because they're involved in these negotiations, want to keep them going.
But this attitude toward Iran and actually tightening sanctions is just, you know, cruel beyond belief and really, really quite sickening.
Now, they're by far one of the very hardest hit countries right now, other than China and Italy.
I think they're in third place ahead of South Korea.
Absolutely.
And South Korea, as I just wrote about in The Nation, it'll be out soon, is, you know, way far ahead of the U.S. in testing.
It's amazing.
You know, the U.S. and South Korean governments basically learned their first, you know, coronavirus victims or patients, you know, on the same day in January.
But you know, since then, you know, South Korea, you know, began almost immediately a nationwide testing service where people could be tested, often in drive-in places.
And they've tested, you know, almost over 300,000 people, whereas in the U.S., which is five times or so the population, it's, you know, like below 30,000.
I don't know the exact numbers today, but it's obscene.
It is.
It's an absolute catastrophe.
And you know, I have a blog entry at the Institute if people want to look at that, where I sum up a few of these.
There's a great piece in The Wall Street Journal the other day.
And Reason Magazine has been doing a great job on this.
And even BuzzFeed had this really great, graphic, interactive thing explaining how the CDC and the FDA are the greatest enemies of the American people at this point.
It's just, and Trump, I mean, the way he's handled this and the way he's, you know, calling it the China virus and, you know, just letting those core, you know, nationalists, white nationalists, supporters of her go after, you know, Asian people, you know, the attacks on Asians in this country and elsewhere is, is, is abhorrent.
And, and, you know, you know, it's, it's all because of that, this commander in chief who's, who's such a racist.
Well, and you know, the thing is, too, he had the opportunity.
He said at this press conference the other day, he goes, look, I'm calling it the China virus because one of their generals tried to blame it on the U.S. Army going to the games over there.
You're going to blame it on us?
Well, I'm going to rub your nose in it that no, you pangolin and bat eating creeps, you're the ones and whatever.
But then, which is, I'm not saying I agree with him, but I understand his point there that, you know, blame it on us.
We're going to make sure everybody knows good and well where this thing came from.
Fine.
This is who we're dealing with is Donald Trump.
But then the lady in the audience, the, the, the reporter says to him, but there have been attacks on Chinese Americans and kind of because of this rhetoric.
So like, could you say something about that?
He could have easily said, hey, Chinese Americans are Americans and they didn't do this and they're fine.
And that's not what we're talking about.
We're talking about those creeps over in the Politburo in Beijing.
But he didn't say that.
He goes, China, China, China.
And he just leaves it at that when there are, I don't know how many tens of millions of Chinese Americans who, you know, not all of whom are at risk, but as you say, on the margins, like some of these people are getting their head beat in for no reason right now.
And it's not only Chinese.
I mean, people don't differentiate.
Yeah, that's right.
They go after the Sikhs over 9-11, right?
Right.
And so, you know, I've been hearing stories directly and also, you know, seeing it on social media about, you know, people that have been spit at and yelled at and all kinds of things in stores because they're Asian, you know.
And worse than that, though, is the the six or eight weeks that he spent playing the whole thing down.
And there is a write up in The New York Times where they collected all of his different things about.
You see, there's it's going to miraculously disappear in April.
You don't have to worry about it at all.
And he said stuff along those lines over and over and over again.
In fact, there's a piece in Vanity Fair.
There's an interview with Tucker Carlson about how it was Tucker Carlson who finally got through to him and went and met with him at Mar-a-Lago and said, listen, you have to knock this off.
This is real.
Wow.
Yeah, it's it's really it's really sickening.
You know, one of the things I've picked up from Korea also is that, you know, Moon Jae-in is government is handling this, you know, very well, but he's not.
But Moon, the president, is not the one speaking.
He you know, the equivalent of the South Korean CDC, this woman who heads it, you know, she's the one who does all the speaking, you know, leave it to the experts, people who know what they're talking about, who are in command of all the, you know, health agencies and are the ones responding.
They know the numbers.
They understand what what's at stake, not have some, you know, president mouth off and just just lie and and all this that Trump is doing.
But, you know, in South Korea, the message has been very clear and people, you know, people trust the messenger and they're getting accurate information.
And it goes out, you know, people are telling me because, you know, part they have national health care.
So everybody's hooked up to national health care system.
And, you know, you get one or two texts a day, you know, updating you.
And if you want to get tested, giving you a number to call.
And let me ask you this.
I mean, they have not done the Shanghai style lockdown.
They've just done social distancing and tons and tons of testing.
And they've almost knocked the whole thing out so far.
Right.
And not completely, but they're really making progress.
But like, you know, and people in Korea and other Asian countries, too, they have this sort of, you know, they feel their their responsibilities is not just, you know, their individual responsibility, but it's a responsibility to the larger group and the larger community.
And so people are like, yeah, we don't want to pass this on to, you know, people who are vulnerable or elderly.
So we're going to we're going to, you know, keep socially distant from people and we're going to stay at home and we're not going to go out and frolic, you know, with all these, you know, go drinking and et cetera.
I mean, Korea is a very, very social country and people like to drink, you know, late at night and hang out.
But it's that's not happening.
People are saying, yeah, we have to protect our broader community.
And that was like really brought home to me when I was talking to somebody there for this article who was telling me just how important that is.
And, you know, you see these also you see these video reports that are on Twitter from people in Italy saying, please take this seriously, you know, just because you don't feel sick doesn't mean you can't pass it on, you know, just because you don't have it.
I mean, just where you saw where Biden was encouraging people to go and vote.
As long as you don't have any symptoms, go vote, he said.
Really, really.
Yeah, really stupid.
Just incredible.
It's really serious.
But, you know, getting back to North Korea, yeah, I think we don't really know the extent there.
I mean, they've been they've they've shut off their borders.
But they're but, you know, what I've read in some publications that follow North Korea closely is that, you know, they're taking really extensive measures, you know, to prevent it.
I mean, to prevent it from from spreading and have have done pretty good on that.
But we don't there's no real statistics.
I mean, I'd read a thing, though, that said that their border with China was open for weeks and weeks.
Well, it might have been, but it's been closed for a couple of weeks.
OK.
And they've they've pretty much, you know, shut down any kind of cross-border trade, which which is their lifeblood.
Right.
Which I mean, they're guaranteed to lie about the extent of the outbreak.
So we really have no idea how bad it might be there.
Right.
It's a very poor country.
It's not necessarily lie.
They're just not that transparent.
You know, it's not transparent.
And so a lot of times in these situations, it's not that they give out false information.
They don't give out any.
Yeah, I guess the last I'd heard they said we have no cases at all.
Leave us alone.
I think that's what I think that's what they said.
But, you know, there's but there still is no nobody's been able to come up with any, you know, any real numbers.
But, you know, it's it's it's closed society.
But they are, you know, definitely hurting for, you know, in terms of humanitarian assistance.
And they need, you know, people are I mean, you know, these sanctions, especially the ones that were imposed after 2017, after the sort of fire and fury crisis back, you know, three years ago.
Those are really hurting people, hurting ordinary people.
And, you know, it's it's it's it's hurt.
So that's that's where the flexibility is coming in, because as I pointed out in my article, like even a guy, you know, this this this this guy from the Heritage Foundation, who's been a big hawk on North Korea, you know, he was saying, you know, there's I was covering this congressional hearing on North Korea, and he was saying, you know, there's the there's the U.N. sanctions, which were imposed in 2017, basically hitting them on, you know, their coal exports and oil imports and, you know, sort of base those sort of basic goods.
And then and those could be lifted.
You know, they haven't they haven't, you know, those were imposed after they tested ICBMs. And after they, you know, tested one nuclear device back in whenever it was 2016, 2017.
And so those could be eased.
And but the ones that are harder to ease are the U.S. sanctions that have been imposed, you know, for decades, and many of which have been or law, you know, have been imposed by the U.S. Congress.
And so and those are linked more to North Korea's behavior.
It's, you know, it's human rights situation.
And so it require, you know, changes internally of the society as opposed to, you know, stopping, you know, stopping testing or something like that.
So his proposal, you know, what he was saying was that, you know, the U.S. could be flexible on those U.N. sanctions, the more recent ones, and, you know, the other ones might take longer to lift and they'd be much harder to lift.
But the fact that someone's actually talking about that, you know, from the right and from the, you know, hard line, you know, part of U.S. foreign policy to me is significant.
And after all, look at all of the complete, you know, edicts by Fiat that are taking place across this country right now.
Forget Congress.
If Donald Trump and his government decided we're not going to enforce these sanctions right now because I say so, Congress isn't going to do anything about that.
They're going to remove him from office over that.
No, no, no.
They're going to move.
They're not going to remove him from office for anything, obviously.
Yeah.
Until until we get a change in Congress.
But, you know, that's that's that's true.
But, you know, I think that there is some even, you know, even some administration people are talking somewhat differently.
But the thing is, you know, right now, I mean, the North Korean government was so pissed off at the U.S. for its real hard line stance in, you know, a year, more than a year ago in Hanoi, when basically they said you have to give up everything before we're going to lift any sanctions whatsoever.
And that, you know, that really tough stand, you know, they said, you know, until you change, we're not going to talk to you.
So they're looking for some kind of indication from Washington and from the Trump administration that there is some flexibility on it, you know, so there could be, you know, lifting of sanctions because that that's that's really key for them.
And, you know, the other thing I think that these these hawkish, you know, individuals and organizations are concerned about is that, you know, just like the U.S. and South Korea are greatly expanding their their own arsenals and their own military force, so is North Korea.
You know, they're they're they're they're getting they've been like last year they tested, I forget, like there was two about about two dozen, maybe not quite that many is about a dozen tests of missiles that are like more short range.
But they they're getting, you know, they're getting more accurate, more powerful, short range missiles.
And they're designed as, you know, deterrence against the forces arrayed about arrayed against them in the Pacific.
You know, and in the U.S. has these, you know, nuclear, nuclear armed ships and planes in the, you know, base in Japan, Okinawa and Guam.
And then, of course, there's a huge force in South Korea and a huge force in Japan.
And so those missiles that they're developing are basically self-defense, but they're getting better at it.
And so, you know, conservatives here are like, you know, the longer these negotiations are go on, the stronger their their own forces in North Korea and the more of a of a threat that is to, you know, U.S. forces and allied forces in the Pacific.
So they're saying, like, you know, let's get a deal.
Let's make you have an agreement.
The question is, you know, how far that we know what that agreement can be.
So, well, let me ask you about that, man.
You know, I'm a Pollyanna type over here.
Tim, talk me out of it.
Seems to me like if they would just put nukes last and say, look, we want to just hand you a security guarantee and a real one, too, like the kind Kennedy gave to Khrushchev over Cuba.
We swear to God, we're not going to invade you.
We want to lift our sanctions.
We want to be friends.
We would like you guys to reciprocate with promises, security guarantees to South Korea, for example, some other things like that.
Let's be friends like Nixon and Mao and then we'll work on the nukes in the future.
I think that worked great.
But now what do you think?
You know, say put it.
Well, that's that's the point.
I mean, denuclearization should be the end point, right, of any kind of negotiation.
So but, you know, first you have to, you know, make the peace and then you have to build the trust.
And this is why the North Korean side and also South Korea all emphasizes kind of a step by step process like, you know, let's have a peace treaty, let's end the Korean War.
You know, then there's that that that's very important right there.
And so there's there's no longer a state of war.
And then move from there to like, you know, allowing South and North to develop deeper economic cooperation and collaboration like they've been trying to do, but they've been prohibited by the sanctions.
And then, you know, it's a long process.
And then if there, you know, peace can be established, a peace process can be established.
And there's, you know, periods of time when that peace process deepens.
And then you build that trust over time.
North Korea wants, you know, to be treated like a normal nation and have these trade restrictions lifted, you know, join international organizations.
But they want, what they really want is a new relationship with the U.S. where, you know, diplomatic relations.
So, you know, I don't think it's, you know, at the beginning, I think if they said, OK, we're going to, you know, we'll be OK with lifting some, this is the U.S. side, we'll be OK with lifting some sanctions in return for, you know, you making some, you know, giving up like the Yongbyon nuclear facility they've been talking about and some other weapons facilities.
And then, you know, slowly turning, you know, doing something with their cutting back on their production of plutonium and whatever goes into nuclear weapons.
You know, and then you do that and then, you know, you have a period of, OK, we've done that.
And then, you know, a period of time where you feel both sides try to keep to that interim agreement.
And then over time, you know, the threat diminishes and then you can take the next step and the next step.
So it's a long process.
And I think, you know, possibly, you know, a lot of U.S. officials and people in the military industrial think tanks here are beginning to realize that.
But, you know, you do have an element of hawks that are still around that, you know, would prefer just to overthrow the government and have some kind of, you know, U.S.-backed regime change there, which ain't going to happen.
I mean, that would be that would lead to war.
But there's still people like that in Washington.
But I think their voices are, you know, diminishing.
I don't think they're anything like they were.
And then, you know, I mean, this this is a great opportunity.
I mean, anything like, you know, a global health crisis, things like this sometimes are opportunity to make, you know, make a change.
And like you said earlier, that would be a perfect way, you know, to to to like expand humanitarian assistance to North Korea or Iran.
And you know what?
Especially with Trump.
And believe me, I got many, many, many of the very same problems with Trump that you do.
But the reality is he's not a Bush.
He's not a Clinton.
He's not a senator.
None of this stuff was his fault.
It should be totally easy to say, let me tell you something.
The Bushes and the Clintons and Obama, who's nothing but Hillary anyway, they ruined everything.
But I'm changing course and I want to do this.
He's not married to their policies.
He doesn't have to be at all.
Right.
Right.
He is, but he doesn't have to be.
Although he did, you know, he did bring us pretty close to war in 2017.
He also went and shook hands with Kim and walked into North Korea and took some pictures, too.
So absolutely, absolutely.
I mean, you know, I've applauded him for doing that.
Right.
Of course.
And it's taken a lot of heat for saying, you know, how can you say anything good about Trump?
Well, OK, yeah, that's something I support.
What's right is right.
Absolutely.
That actually took some took some hutzpah, took some guts, you know, to do that.
No one had ever done that before.
And, you know, that was that was a good thing.
That's the way, you know, to bring peace.
And like, you know, you know, like every time I hear someone like Biden, Joe Biden or other some of the other, you know, former Democrat, Democratic candidates, I should say, you know, they're always saying, look, no, we're not going to shake the hands of that thug, you know, and so on.
Well, you know, what about South Korea?
I mean, this is you know, that's the only leader that North Korea has right now.
You know, either you talk to him or you don't.
Right.
Well, and South Korea is essentially begging us to please let them make peace here.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And it's really been tough on, you know, Moon Jae-in and his progressive government because of the, you know, the inflexibility of the U.S. because until the U.S.
DPRK North Korea conflict is resolved, North and South can't move to, you know, seriously, you know, demilitarize and seriously move toward, you know, more normalization of their own relations.
Right.
You know that.
So that's that's I think it's really important.
But absolutely.
You know, I read a thing.
I forget if this was by you or somebody else that said that.
Look, when Nixon went to China and met with Mao Zedong, who is the greatest mass murderer in all of history, Stalin plus Hitler equals Mao.
OK.
And Nixon went over there and shook hands with Mao.
And when he came home, the Democratic leaders in the House and the Senate at the Post and the Times all praised him to high heaven.
They said, we hate Richard Nixon.
He's the devil himself.
And they sounded just like Tim Shorrock praising Trump when he's right.
He's right.
Right.
And, you know, now it's going the other way.
I'm trying to you can see that.
Yeah.
I mean, you know, Nixon was able to.
I mean, he understood sort of the broad global dimensions and the ridiculous, you know, whether whatever one thinks of Mao Zedong and his government, ignoring the fact that, you know, it was that's China, not Taiwan.
And just not allowing them into the U.N. and all this stuff is ridiculous.
And, you know, that's when it changed.
But, you know, I think that, you know, that what Nixon did, you know, is definitely is definitely a model, as well as the way that, as you said earlier, JFK settled, you know, the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Yeah.
And, you know, so there are there are there are models here.
So I think, you know, you know, I think that I'm always optimistic, I guess.
But it's a tough slog and it's going to be require, you know, some major shifts, I think, in American foreign policy and also, you know, our whole structure of bases in East Asia and the whole, you know, U.S. military hegemony in that part of the world, which is where the U.S. is really, you know, focusing, focusing its, you know, its bases and its budget, military budget is moving toward, you know, expanding, you know, U.S. military forces in in Asia, East Asia, Japan, South Korea, Guam, et cetera.
So, you know, we got a long ways to go.
But, you know, then again, it is a whole new world.
Everything's up for grabs.
Everything's up for a fresh change and for the better right now, if we call it right.
Yep.
Yep.
Listen, I am so grateful to you for all of your great writing on this.
You're one of the most important journalists in America because of your work on this story specifically, which I already liked you anyway, but I'm just saying.
And I am also incredibly grateful for all the time that you've shared with us on the show here, Tim.
Thank you much, Scott.
I appreciate it, too.
All right, you guys.
That is the great Tim Shorrock.
He writes regularly at The Nation.
And you can find this one at Antiwar.com.
Washington hawks are softening their hard line on sanctions against North Korea.
The Scott Horton Show, Antiwar Radio, can be heard on KPFK 90.7 FM in L.A.
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