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All right, you guys, introducing our friend Jeffrey Kaye.
He is a retired psychologist and author of the book Cover Up at Guantanamo, the NCIS investigation into the quote, ironic quotes, suicides of Mohammed al-Hanashi and Abdul Rahman al-Amri.
And just yesterday, he put out this very important and interesting thing you guys all need to look at.
We're running in the new section on antiwar.com report on US use of biological weapons in Korea, the long suppressed report.
Welcome back to the show.
How are you doing, Jeffrey?
Hey, Scott.
Fine.
How are you?
I'm doing real good.
Really appreciate you joining us on the show here.
And you guys recognize Jeff, if you read my book Fool's Errand.
He's in the Guantanamo section featured prominently there and for very good reason.
All right, now listen here.
Um, there's always been accusations, right?
From the very beginning of American use of biological weapons in the Korean War.
And yet, that must all be a bunch of communist propaganda, right?
Yeah, well, the was in fact, the communist governments of North Korea and China, it followed a little bit later by the Soviet Union, that reported that they were finding insects dropped on troops in early in January of 1952.
And when they took some of these insects, first of all, that was unusual.
The behavior of the insects was unusual.
And they, when they took these insects back to labs, they found that they in fact had been, you know, infected or had for whatever reasons on them, you know, various types of organisms, you know, plague, anthrax, you know, it wasn't just insects, it was like dry leaves, and, you know, shreds of paper, feathers, even little animals like bulls, b-o-l-l-e-s.
And over the months that this went on, what we now presume was an experimental, large scale experimental use of biological weapons by the United States during the Korean War, and the Chinese in particular, and the Koreans who had fought with the Chinese during the Chinese Civil War, and even some of them back as early as World War, what was the Sino-Japanese War, World War Two, to your listeners, you know, could remember easily that, in fact, there had been large scale biological weapons campaigns conducted in that part of the world, in China, in particular, in Manchuria, by the Japanese, the Imperial Japanese, who had a number of different detachments, the most famous being Unit 731, which had conducted, you know, horrific experiments on live prisoners, and later engaged in large scale use of biological weapons, for which war crimes trials, in fact, were held by the Soviets after World War Two.
But in the United States, this was all hushed up, because in the United States, the United States government had given amnesty to all the leading members and scientists in the Unit 731, brought some of them over to what was then Camp Dietrich, later Fort Dietrich, to work on the U.S. or comment upon and be consultants on the U.S.'s own biological warfare program.
So when they saw insects, you know, where they shouldn't be in mass proportions, in that part of the world, you know, it triggered an instantaneous, well, this is this must be a biological weapon being used upon us.
And, and in fact, it was in that report, which I published yesterday, I put posted, let's shall we say published, I posted online the entire 764 pages, because the report, which was led by a commission, which was by a commission from the World Peace Association, was led by the most one of the most prominent, if maybe not even the most prominent scientist in the West at that time, Sir Joseph Needham, member of the Royal Society, highly respected scientist, along with a number of other scientists from around the world.
From Western Europe, mostly, the, you know, had had brought up the subject themselves of the Japanese earlier biological war campaign.
They didn't know about the amnesty, of course, that was top secret.
But they could see the similarities themselves.
So all of these reasons meant that at the beginning, whatever, of course, is the same today, right?
Whatever the quote communists say, is automatically has no truth value, because they're communists, right?
Or they're our enemy, the enemy cannot say anything.
And of course, this was a time of horrific war, the Korean War was as horrific as anything in World War Two, it was simply just confined to one country, or one peninsula, the Korean Peninsula, and parts of northern China, and 10s of 1000s of Americans, by the way, died horrifically in that war, and 10s of 1000s more, were, you know, horrifically, hundreds of 1000s, horrifically either injured or damaged via PTSD in that war.
And this is a war that the United States would like to duplicate, or perhaps even in their mind complete, given the rhetoric coming out of the White House and the Pentagon these days.
Well, so, well, we'll have to, we'll have to catch back up to current day politics in a second.
But to go back here a little bit.
You know, you're right, it was a brutal war.
And they killed, I think the official record on the American side is that they killed 2 million North Koreans and napalm the place to the ground, as you point out in the war.
The leaders of the American air campaign themselves said it was sickening what they were doing as they continued to do it to that degree.
So I guess if the question is, well, gee, morally speaking, would they deliberately give someone anthrax while they're burning them to death, you know?
Sure.
But at the same time, with the KGB, and could the KGB forge up a bunch of fake evidence to make America look bad?
Sure.
And they did that all the time, right?
Coming up with miss and disinformation.
So I guess, what makes you so certain that?
Is it just because of the, the large number and the disparate backgrounds of the people who worked on the report at the time?
Or just the way it's written?
Or what else you got for us here?
Right.
So how do I, by the way, and I'm not just pulling that out of whole cloth.
I mean, that's always been the story is that this is KGB miss and disinformation.
Right, absolutely.
And that is what in fact, the Cold War scholars, for the most part in America, say, and they dredge up their evidence, which, by the way, totals maybe approximately 25 pages, or maybe it's 50 pages total of evidence, which are some documents they claim came from the Soviet Union and one recently released memoir in China.
You know, what makes you know, I am not sure with 100% certainty, because I adopt the same approach as the scientific observers and investigators of the International Scientific Commission led by Joseph Needham, which is that, you know, you look at these things with a scientific or scholarly probability, and the probability is extremely high.
And today, other scholars, such as Stephen Endicott, the Canadian scholars, Stephen Endicott and Edward Hagerman, who wrote a book in the late 90s, published by University of Indiana Press, pointing out, you know, as they looked at the archives in China and the United States, in the National Archives, that if you look at the totality of the archival material, and that includes the Needham report, and you look at the entirety of the witness statements made over the years, some of them as recently as a few years back in an important article at Al Jazeera, called Dirty Little Secrets, about this biological warfare campaign in Korea, that what you have is, yes, there was a biological warfare campaign.
Oh, and by the way, I think maybe in some ways, for me personally, most importantly, the statements of nearly two dozen airmen who had been part of that campaign and were captured, you know, when their planes went down by the North Koreans or Chinese, and later became mythologized in movies like the Manchurian Candidate.
It has a huge place in American culture and in even in recent actions, including the US use of torture, most recently in this century, because it is the US government maintains that these flyers were all tortured to giving false statements, false confessions.
And it was the attempt to figure out how that happened and how to stop it by the US government that created the SEER program.
But I'm going to go too far afield on that.
I'm going to stop myself, read the article.
I ask your listeners to read the article if they want to go down that path.
But it's very important because this crime and the cover up of this crime, which was intense, is very important, even to everyone today, in so many different ways, not least, of course, in making the Koreans into boogeyman to be bombed by the US.
So, our crime...
Well, that is an important point.
That's a huge point that this whole mythology about the success of communist brainwashing techniques, and this is in A Question of Torture by Alfred McCoy, his great book as well, that this then became the basis for a lot of the MK Ultra that, oh, we got to keep up with the commies.
So let's adopt everything we learned from the Nazis about how to torture people and all this stuff, which I guess the commies were implementing stuff they learned from the Nazis, too.
But anyway, and then, as you say, even later on, generations later, when the Cold War is dead and gone and over, the Bush administration goes and uses the survival technique training that they use to prepare Americans in case they ever got captured by the Koreans.
This is how to survive their dastardly brainwashing techniques.
And they took that and then, quote, reverse-engineered it, in other words, re-forward-engineered it, and started applying it and tortured tens of thousands of people, as we know, in the terror wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Yes, that is correct.
Yeah, I mean, as you said, it is sort of going off topic, but not really.
And just look at how important...
And then, you know, we're going to be dealing with the consequences of that now for generations to come as well.
Yes, yes.
And it all goes back to the Korean War, a war which is sometimes called the Hidden War, and for good reason, because the United States conducted more war crimes in that war, probably per day than any other war they've ever even been in, with the impossible exception of the Vietnam War.
One of these crimes, and one reason to hide it, was the fact that the use of biological weapons was against the Geneva Conventions, was against treaties about not using chemical and biological weapons.
And treaties, by the way, the U.S. was one of a couple that hadn't signed at that time, deliberately so.
And we know, and scholars I mentioned before, Anna Cotton Hagerman dug out of the National Archives, December 1951 directive by the then Secretary of Defense to the Joint Chiefs of Staff to make ready the use of chemical and biological warfare in the earliest practicable time.
And the Joint Chiefs of Staff turned around and said, indicated to the armed forces that they wanted a strong offensive biological warfare capability, quote, without delay.
And it was within a few months that in fact, we begin to see the beginnings of the campaign reported by the Chinese and the Soviets.
Now, I've added a little bit personally to that.
I've published this because number one, this report truly was suppressed.
If any of your listeners want to get a copy of this report, not online, the one that I released, but just like a hard copy of that report.
It is literally, well, not impossible, but extremely, extremely difficult.
You might wait months or years before you see another copy ever surface again for sale.
I count myself extremely lucky that I was able to obtain one.
And I'm talking here about the full report, not the summary, which is about 60 some odd pages, which you can still find copies of it because they were distributed as propaganda, I would say, or propaganda in the widest sense of the term, trying to get their point of view across to the other people.
But the reason to publish the full report is that in those 600 some odd pages of appendices is in fact, the meat of the investigation.
It is, you know, how did this commission approach these charges, right?
What kind of, you know, did they, this is especially important because the Cold Warrior scholars of America and the American government claim this was all made up, that this is a fraud, that tremendous fraud was perpetuated upon the world by the Soviets and the Chinese and the North Koreans and, you know, this report and how it was conducted and all the conclusions and even all the questions that those investigators had, that the NEDM, the ISC, when I say that I mean International Scientific Commission, the ISC investigators had about, you know, the things they were finding, how did they go about it?
What kind of, what were they basing their conclusions upon, right?
And in fact, what these hundreds of pages show are depositions by witnesses, depositions from some of the flyers who dropped biological weapons on Korea and China.
Meaning prisoners of war because, well, I mean, that means that, well, they were just tortured into saying that, right?
When you say depositions, you mean confessions of prisoners.
Right.
You know, I won't say that they weren't tortured because I wasn't there.
What I'm talking about is the truth credibility of the statements that were actually made and the evidence deduced from these confessions.
Yeah.
Well, and also we know, especially with hindsight, I mean, who knows what people believed in 1950, whatever, when the great father Truman was making all these pronouncements and all that.
But there's no way in hindsight that we believe that the North Koreans had some magical MKUltra formula to brainwash these airmen into making these false claims.
As you say in the article, yeah, they were locked in solitary confinement.
They may have been beaten or God knows what, but some kind of Manchurian candidate magical brainwashing thing is pure fiction.
Right.
And in fact, when they were open about it as a very famous CIA psychologist, John Gittinger was at some of the church committee hearings, they, you know, no, there was no Manchurian candidate.
There was no magic formula.
Although you can make people give false confessions, you can, in other words, make people do what you want them to do.
By, in fact, it happens today under techniques far less onus, such as the so-called, and there have been articles on this in the press in the past few years, the REID technique used by police forces all around America produces many false confessions.
A false confession, of course, is somebody doing something at your will, which is producing, you know, confessions that aren't true.
So look, I mean, the only reason I interrupt to beat you over the head on that is just because, you know, that obviously is already the official standard narrative there.
And, you know, it's worth pointing out that yeah, American airmen could be coerced into saying something that's not true.
And yet at the time, the excuse for why would they do such a thing was this ridiculous brainwashing techniques and all of this stuff that we know couldn't really be right.
And so that tends to cast doubt on the idea to me that they were lying in the first place.
And then I think as you're explaining, especially when you take into context with the rest of the information here, that makes their confessions actually seem quite plausible.
So I take it, Scott, then that you've actually looked at the confessions.
Well, I've seen old footage of them in the past and that kind of thing, the guys blinking Morse code and all that.
Yeah.
You know, the way to assess the confessions is to actually look at them, to read the content and to correlate them with other evidence to see if this stuff is in fact made up.
Is it trustworthy, what they're saying?
You know, were they just blathering on, you know, American imperialist, you know, drop bombs, bad, bad, bad.
Or were they giving details that were truthful?
You look at the truth, you know, just as in a court of law, we don't look necessarily, or you're not supposed to, at how the person is dressed or whether they have a stutter or what even their past background might've been.
You look at the totality of the picture.
And for that, for evidence, as historians or those just informed consumers of the political blather that's out there in the world, you want evidence if you care at all.
And so I, when I heard about this stuff, I certainly didn't know.
So I went as anyone would to say, well, let me go look, let me, let me read these confessions.
What do they actually look like?
And guess what?
I couldn't find them.
And neither can you, and neither can anyone else except for, yes, a few videos of literally maybe a snippet of maybe add up to about 90 seconds of statements online.
The reason is it was suppressed.
The four confessions that were printed in full in the Needham report, which I released, but also about 19 others that were published in a book by the Chinese also back during the Korean war, which is totally unavailable.
I had to go to another country and I won't say even what country I went to.
Well, it was a Western democracy to, to track down.
Well, it was Britain.
I went to Britain to find it one copy.
And I mean, they have like one copy.
In fact, it was the personal copy of Sir Joseph Needham held in the library at the Imperial War Museum.
That's how far away I had to go to seek the answer to look at that's called suppression.
When you can't find the evidence to historical controversies, and all you have are one sided diatribes about what's true.
And here's the facts by Cold War, American institutions and authors.
You don't have a true look at what's going on because you can't see the other side.
You know, your listeners can believe me or not believe me or any other commentator, but any, you know, when the fate of the world may hang in the balance, because the start of a new Korean war could easily be the start of World War Three.
Well, so you got a chance to tell my listeners and everyone to look at the actual facts before you destroy the world.
Yeah.
Well, so and now this is what's in what you've republished here includes this stuff that were you able to copy it when you're there in England or what?
Or you just were able to read it?
There are four full, full, full, four full confessions by four American flyers that are reproduced in full in the Needham report.
And they are there as part of my agreement to look at this book and even have a get a copy of it from the Imperial War Museum, I cannot reproduce that material.
And I don't feel like going to jail for a copyright infringement.
That it would be meaningful.
Yeah.
But since I have no such guarantee, I'm not going to throw myself on the sword of, you know, so that nothing can happen.
Well, at least tell us about so tell us, yeah, everything that you read in there and what you thought of it all.
Well, what I thought, you know, they're very similar, in the sense that you have differences of personality, you have differences of, you know, individuals writing their documents, some of those confessions have a political edge to them that sound like these people were indoctrinated or trying to get, you know, in good graces with their captors with, you know, some verbiage about imperialism and etc.
But also, you know, some of it is genuine, some of it is probably false.
But what all of that I don't look at, what I looked at is what are the things they were saying, they spoke to this investigator, they were brought to this here to this briefing, these were the kind of bombs they use, this was the procedure by which it was done.
This was the these were the methods employed for secrecy.
Here's the discrepancy.
In fact, in the report, one of the most interesting appendices to me to show the genuineness by which Needham and his associates looked at these issues, is they looked at they didn't just produce the confessions and say, well, here they are, here's the confessions, they said, well, let's look at what ways in which these confessions agree with each other.
And let's look at which ways in which there are discrepancies between what we are hearing, and what can we make of that?
Does that, in other words, invalidate the information we're getting, they were concerned with the truth value.
And that's what I'm speaking of.
So I sat down, and I looked at the confessions, and I started to think, thanks to the internet, began to, you know, look at what they were saying, and in fact corroborated.
If they said there was a Captain such and such at Fort Detrick, yes, guess what there was, if they said there was a program there that was meant to, you know, produce vast vats of bacteria in 1952, yeah, there was, you know, you can corroborate most of the information.
You know, I had and I have some experience in corroborating information, not because I was an interrogator, but because as a psychologist who sometimes acted in a forensic mode, meaning I was producing reports that were to be used in courts in some kind of legal setting, you had to learn how to, and I was doing assessments of, in this case, it was asylum applicants for the United States, you have to assess the truth value and the information that you're getting.
And one way you do that is to corroborate the information that you're getting with other known sources.
And that's where if you had, if one could have these confessions, and I'm still going to try and get out there when I can, I can certainly write about them and give the gist of what's saying and liberally quote it according to fair use guidelines.
And I intend to do that.
But if I get time in the near future, but what I found was that yes, that in ways that are very similar in ways your readers could look at the book you can get that was incredible book, it's not about Korea, it's about Vietnam, in fact, the air war in Cambodia.
You can get William Shawcross's book Sideshow, Kissinger, Nixon and the Destruction of Cambodia, who was a Pulitzer Prize winner at the time.
Great, great book of modern history and journalism.
And what he did was document how a completely secret program, in this case, it was the air war over Cambodia, conducted by Nixon and Kissinger was done.
And it's fascinating, because it tells you it's very similar to what the this is, again, another kind of another piece of inferential or circumstantial evidence.
But, you know, the the airmen back in 1952, certainly couldn't know what William Shawcross would write in 1982.
Much less what the Nixon and Kissinger were doing in 1972.
But the means by which a very covert, top secret military operation of a large scale were done were very similar.
Right?
So that things weren't written, orders weren't written down.
And, you know, people were told at the beginning, that this was top secret, what could happen to them, if any information came out.
And this was good enough to keep things secret for a long time in the Cambodia situation, and certainly for a very long time in the Korean.
The difference is when the Korean War, when these airmen were repatriated, who had made their confessions, after the war, they were threatened, you know, they were interrogated for for days on end by counter intelligence officials.
And my article, which you're republishing or reposting in antiwar.com goes into who was one of the people in charge of that a very interesting creepy guy named Boris Pash.
And, and also how these returning flyers were threatened with court martial, if they did not, in fact, recant their confessions.
So guess what, they all recanted their confessions.
And the records at one scholars later, by the way, these were pro America, pro POW kind of scholars went looking for the transcripts of these interrogations.
They were told they had all been destroyed inadvertently in a fire.
And maybe that did happen.
But it's certainly quite suspicious that the evidence of what the players said after they returned to the United States was, you know, apparently all destroyed.
So you start looking at, you know, all these pieces go together.
And I know you can say this, even as I say it myself, I think, well, that's classic conspiracy stuff.
But they are facts.
And when you put all the facts together, they overwhelmingly point to the fact that the United States appears to have conducted a large scale, albeit still experimental biological warfare campaign in Korea, it was not very effective.
But one of the reasons it wasn't very effective, probably was because the Chinese and by extension, the Koreans were very close to the Chinese in those days, especially, were very experienced in having biological warfare conducted upon them.
And they knew to immediately take massive public health, health measures in the West in Western media, there have been many articles in the past 10 years or so, about, you know, they can't deny the massive public health response that China in particular did in the early days of the years of the Korean War.
Because they believe they were being, you know, bombed, and wells poisoned, etc, by the by the United States.
And this, no one can deny that there was this massive public health turning out.
Now, one of the pieces of convergent evidence, by the way, they're not all in Needham, others have happened.
And I put myself contributed to I believe, one was my finding in CIA, FOIA online documents, that the United States at the time of the Korean War contemporaneously at very high levels of policymaking levels, said among themselves that the United States did not want in fact, any investigation of this to occur publicly in the UN, the United States was saying, we need to get investigators in, how can they say this, let's get in the Red Cross, let's get in the UN Commission.
Right.
And of course, the Chinese and the Koreans were being bombed by UN forces said, No, we don't want you coming in, they didn't trust them.
And so things were left to the stalemate.
But ironically, if they had said, Sure, come on in, that would have posed a real dilemma to the United States, because we have documents that say, we don't want it where the United States was saying at high levels, we don't want any real investigation, because it would reveal things that the Eighth Army is doing, that would cause a serious national security problems, that they would cause us to reveal things that we don't want known about our operations, including, for example, they say chemical warfare.
Now, chemical warfare, we don't want it known.
Well, no, they weren't talking about napalm, the world knew about the napalm North Korea, what chemical weapons were they talking about?
And by the way, although the Needham report doesn't go into it.
Other reports have, you know, and it's very possible that the United States also used chemical weapons in Korea.
But on that, I, you know, I have not researched extensively as I have on the biological weapons issue.
But I believe they said eg, which means for example, chemical weapons, because they couldn't say, commit to paper, even on a set of minutes, which is what I looked at the documents minutes that the biological weapons were used, no one was going to write that down.
Because it was a war crime.
Right.
So I mean, even when the Nazis, by the way, were conducting the Holocaust, you know, they, they took steps to make sure that what they were doing wasn't, you know, officially written down in ways that could say, yeah, we are just gonna we're conducting a genocide starts at 10am.
You know, although actually, they ended up keeping a lot more records.
I think a lot of war criminals learned their lesson of, of that they kept too many records of what they were doing.
But now, so now here's the thing, let's go back a minute.
Now, there's a couple things go back over.
First of all, I just want to mention real quick, I don't know if you've seen this, but there's this admittedly long and tedious documentary, but it's really important.
It's called Wormwood on Netflix about the CIA's murder of a military biological warfare specialist from Fort Detrick named Frank Olson.
And this is the one where they said all these years that yeah, no, see what happened was, they gave him some acid and he freaked out and jumped out the window or something like that, like some Bill Hicks joke.
But no, they threw him out the window.
And it wasn't because he was going to blow the lid on them giving him acid, which they had done.
But it was because he was blowing the whistle or was perhaps going to blow the whistle, was trying to blow the whistle on American biological warfare efforts in Korea.
Yes.
Not to ruin the damn documentary for you.
But if you don't want to sit through, you know, seven hours of this thing or whatever it is to get to the final point where...
Right, right.
I encourage everyone to watch, I believe it's on Netflix.
The Earl Morris, is it Netflix?
Yeah, Netflix, Wormwood.
Netflix HBO nine part or whatever it is, six part documentary on Wormwood.
And yes, the center of that documentary is that Frank Olson worked on the biological weapons component of the US program.
And he did that at Fort Detrick.
He was working the Special Operations Division along with the CIA, in fact, was presumably apparently a member of the CIA himself or had been brought into it.
And did not like many of the things they were doing, one of them being the Korean War.
And again, how do we know this?
Because we have corroborating information from a friend of his who knew him at the time at Fort Detrick.
There's a documentary about that called Code Name Artichoke, which is available online, and on YouTube, and people should watch that documentary as well.
There was the truth as the old TV show X-Files used to say is out there.
I did find the Needham report despite the attempt to make sure that no one saw it.
I'm sure that the information of the captured flyers will resurface again someday.
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And I actually got Adobe Illustrator back on my computer again.
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I'm going to get back to work on that.libertystickers.com, especially here in the near future.
Check that out.
And listen here, if you're in the business for a new website, and you need a new 2018 model website, not a 2000 model website, you need a brand new website.
And so what you do, you go to expanddesigns.com, expanddesigns.com slash Scott, and you'll save 500 bucks.
Isn't it popular information, you know, History Channel type, everybody knows that the Japanese used plague, bubonic plague, infected fleas and dropped them on Nanking, as part of their war against China.
And part of your story here is, yeah, some of those same Japanese war criminals, rather than being hanged, were recruited by the Americans.
Is that right?
Oh, yes, the leader of it, Shiro Ishii, and other leading members and scientists were definitely recruited by the Americans.
We know this now.
Documents have been put up by the National Archives, books have been written.
But as late as, I believe it was 1983 or so, in the United States, there was no knowledge of this.
In fact, it was denied.
These were said to be, in my article, in fact, points to not just the United States, but in the United Kingdom.
Because again, part of the Needham report was to bring up this issue.
And they couldn't let it be out there, because that was top secret stuff.
And so the US, which the US fervently denied, just as they deny today that they use biological warfare.
And the took a journalist, John Powell, whose name should be, who people should revere is probably the most, people think Julian Assange is being given a rough time.
You know, John Powell was tried, what was in fact, came back to this country and was tried for treason and sedition, for reporting on the biological warfare campaign.
And he also knew about the, had written about the Japanese Unit 31 materials and, you know, was forced basically into penury and along with his wife and another country, you know, person working with them.
You know, it wasn't until the early 60s that they even lifted the threat of jail by treason from him.
And he went on and 20 years later, he produced using freedom of information law and patient gathering of evidence.
And in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, it landed a bombshell story that did in fact reverberate and led to 60 minutes reports, etc, that the United States had, you know, made an agreement with the Japanese Imperial remnants of the Japanese Imperial Army's biological warfare unit after the war to keep all of their research secret to give them to not penalize them for war crimes, and to, which were extensive, and to, in fact, work with them to work with these fascistic people.
And these, who were these people?
These are people who did live, who did vivisections on live US prisoners, for instance.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, exactly.
Think about the war crimes committed against American and Canadian and British and whatever other prisoners of war, the Japanese, in that war.
I mean, this was a huge part of what they invoked to justify nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the absolute, you know, violation of the rights of their prisoners of war.
Which, I mean, you just pointed out to the nth degree, but how about just the death marches and all the rest of it?
I had a great uncle who was a prisoner of the Japanese and that shit.
I mean, so yeah, then turn that right around.
And just like they did with the Nazis too, these guys can be useful against the Soviets, you know, in this case.
And of course, you know, speaking of what at least used to be acceptable to talk about on television, Bill Curtis, the great investigative reporter who did investigative reports on A&E for many years, he did a thing a long time ago where they talked all about dropping some kind of bacteria, marcesin, something or other over San Francisco Bay, and where you still have the highest rates of infection of that bacteria, or you did for decades in the San Francisco area, where they put germs in the light bulbs of the subways in New York City and had dummy exhaust pipes sticking out of the back of their cars as they're driving around Manhattan, dumping germs out, poisoning Americans.
Why in the hell wouldn't they do that to a bunch of fill in your racial slur here for the Koreans in the 1950s?
You know, where they were, you know, just as, you know, Admiral Fallon, even in 2007, when he was stopping the war with Iran said, look, at the end of the day, these people are ants.
And when the time comes, we will crush them.
And that's in our PC era.
You know, the humanity of the Koreans was not an issue in the Korean War.
It never was.
And it isn't that today, the stuff that comes out of Trump's mouth, for instance, is exactly the same, we will destroy you, you'll see fire and brick, you'll be obliterated.
Right.
And Obama talked the same way about them.
In fact, just a few years ago, he smiled a little bit broader when he did it.
But yeah, so but he did make the same kind of threats of total war and the annihilation.
I forgot the exact words he used.
But for intensive purposes, just as Trump said, total destruction.
And to me, even more remarkable are the responses of the so called political opposition to the current administration, which is to say, basically to stay silent.
In other words, in our silence means agreement.
Or when they do talk about it, they say, you know, they support these onerous sanctions, which in fact, are deleterious to the Korean people.
Yeah, well, I'm watching on TV now.
And you got leftist protesting for the first time in nine or 10 years here.
And they're protesting for a civil war in America.
Instead of they don't have a word to say about bombing eight countries, but they've decided they want to go to war, the coasts versus the interior of the country.
And I'll tell you who's going to win that one.
Yeah, yeah.
No, that's, I know, it's insane.
It's insane that we've got this what happens when you know, the political dialogue has been degraded for decades, where the truth is hidden.
And where you know, propaganda and fake truths are put out there.
And there's no leadership as well.
No leadership to tell people what should we do.
So they fall for demagoguery on both sides.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's very distressing.
All only weapon, I believe we have is truth.
So my release of this document, which has been you know, again, why, if people were to look up on the on the Google Joseph Needham, ISC, you know, investigation Korea, they'll find many, many, many different references.
It's referenced in almost every book that's written on Korean War.
It's referenced here.
But if you actually try to find and look at that reference, i.e. the report itself, you won't find it.
Now you will.
Now everyone can find it.
And people can look for themselves and they can judge for themselves. budding new scholars, not those who are beholden to some Cold War institution for a grant.
You know, you know, they're not going to get a grant.
Let me know whenever, if they asked, no one has certainly ever got a grant to dig out and do.
There's not been one scholarly book done on this report in the West, not one.
Man, right.
It was a major incident.
And by the way, at the time, the charges of biological warfare were huge.
The United States was rocked on its heels, right?
They had many, many meetings, they, they tried to come up with strategies.
One interesting fact that came out when I was doing research was, at the time, the United States wanted to get together a bunch of scientists in the West to denounce the report and show that it was a fraud.
And it was no, it was crap.
They couldn't find them.
Why?
Because the report was good.
The report was scientifically sound.
They even had to admit it internally to themselves.
You have that in their documents, where they express frustration, we can't get any scientists to debunk it, because they can't debunk it.
Absolutely, yes.
That's right.
Yes, I, as a side, I didn't make it the main point.
But in my article, I believe at the time I published it shadowproof from the documents that came out of the, I'll make it, since you mentioned that, sure, I'll make a point of digging that out and making sure that people are aware of that.
But yeah, it's available, you can find those documents on the CIA's own website.
Another set of documents taking a convergent medicine evidence I found on the CIA website that I thought was important was about four or five years ago, now the CIA released a huge tranche of docket secret cables.
These are daily activity cables from the SIGINT or NSA kind of portion at that time, of the military CIA effort in World War Two, in which they had, after some problems at the beginning, broken the North Koreans code.
And in fact, we're listening into all their communications from, you know, say, 19, really, really 1952 onward.
And then writing reports about what they said.
These were reports were classified the highest levels of top secrecy, whatever is beyond top secret, that's what these reports were.
And they released a huge selection of them, not every one.
And but the selection was large enough, hundreds and hundreds of them, that we could look at this selection.
And I did to see what what they had to say about biological weapons, because if in fact, the Chinese and the North Koreans had been engaged in fraud and setting up, you know, the faking of biological weapons, as the United States alleged, I assumed that that would be found in these secret cables, show up over here, and make sure you scatter some bugs and show up over here.
And no, there was nothing like that.
In fact, what I found were admit, you know, statements that were they, you know, the US analysts writing the report of what they were decoding from the North Korean communications show that, in fact, the North Koreans were extremely concerned that false information not be brought back to headquarters.
You know, you have cables, you know, where the people is describing the North Korean commanders is, is chastising some of their people and saying, you know, don't bring this stuff in, it's no good.
This is not good.
This is not, this is not true biological weapon, you're wasting our time.
Right.
So in fact, you know, when you look at the evidence, again, the bulk of the evidence and the Needham report has tons more evidence than anything any Cold War people have produced.
The and I do mention some of it in there.
But and I give references, I tried to write as a semi scholarly article, so that people can, again, look for themselves, right, you could, you can, and probably one should write a book really just about the truth value.
In fact, I guess it was done.
It was Stephen Endicott, Edward Hagerman's book, the US and biological warfare, you know, written in the late 90s, which is still in print, you can find it Google.
And, but you know, of course, the book needs to be brought up to date with new evidence.
But it's a, you know, very complete book, even so as it stands, and these guys did an incredible amount of archival work at a time when the National Archives in during the Clinton administration was temporarily opened up more on these issues than it has been in the past, say, you know, 20 years or so, it was a very brief period of time.
And we were very lucky that there was interested people to go in and look at documents that later were snatched away.
And the import of what I'm doing, again, is to bring documents information back out to the people today that usually gets associated with whistleblowers, right?
And new documents, you know, as various journalists, you know, position and jockey to get, you know, the scoop to get the headline, and then the documents are forgotten, that whatever you analyze out of them isn't hardly discussed, and the train just moves on.
And truth, you know, slowly is chugging along behind it at a pretty much slower rate.
But, you know, the report I released had nothing to do with Freedom of Information Act, it had nothing to do with a whistleblower.
It was simply an actual distributed piece of work that was done.
And then, you know, I can't prove this, but I believe, you know, copies were brought up and just bought up and destroyed by the United States.
And because they didn't want this evidence out there.
And in that, you know, so I'm trying to bring the evidence back out there.
So it can be seen and discussed in a way that at the very least, shows some ability to look at both sides of the equation, at a time instead of the, you know, the passions of, you know, building for war, and the passions of partisan passions, and whatever human passions there are out there, that distort, you know, how we look at things.
You know, it's impossible not to distort stuff, there's no doubt that my own biases don't creep into my analyses.
And anyone who has a scientific turn of mind knows that biases are part of the whole observational process, and that you need some kind of scientific rigor, on which to approach things like assessing evidence or historically particular things like historical evidence, and or any kind of evidence, scientific evidence, medical evidence, etc, legal evidence, and but without that rigor, without the information without, you know, then you're just lost, we're all just blind out there, we're just being turned on the spigot of or not the spigot of the spit, you know, of partisan and, you know, US governmental, you know, animus, to conduct their various wars, which have already killed millions of people, and you have to deaden yourself inside to live in this country.
And you, of course, have not, you were to be praised, you and others, not enough of you, people like you out there, you know, like in your great book on Afghanistan, you know, trying to tell people, wait a minute, here, show people, here's what happened.
This is, this is the truth.
Here's, here are places you can look, assess if you want what's happening, you know, but you need to, to know, to know, first of all, right, in the Garden of Eden, and I'm not religious, but in the myth of the Garden of Eden, you know, the greatest, you know, to know is, is the forbidden thing.
Right?
And it's still that way.
Right?
That myth has tremendous emotional resonance, even today, Pandora does what to know what's in the box, right?
Or whatever Prometheus to give the knowledge, for instance, of fire, you know, to know is dangerous.
Well, and the thing is, you know, it really comes down to man, an old friend of mine, back when I was a cab driver, said to me that, you know, you go on and on about all these details, but at the end of the day, most people, I mean, and this goes for you and me, too, on the things that we're not that interested in or expert in is we go off of our impression of things.
So if our impression of things is that more or less America's Superman going around rescuing people all the time or trying their best, then you just see everything through that lens.
And something like what you're talking about here, and it just doesn't fit.
And so it gets discarded.
And it's basically as simple as that until people realize that like, yeah, no, these guys well, for example, and it's always at the crossroads of official history and stuff that sounds too controversial.
Now that would be a conspiracy theory now and yet it's not outside of historical consensus whatsoever to say that the Americans adopted a bunch of Nazi and Japanese war criminals at the end of the war and put them to work.
Everybody knows that and it wasn't just Wernher von Braun and the rocket program either.
The Galen network of spies in Eastern Europe and then as you talk about here, these germ warfare experts, torture experts from Germany.
This is the kind of thing that is certainly outside that official history.
It seems like you learn enough of those.
Ronald Reagan's a dope dealer and Bill Clinton sent the Delta Force to kill the Branch Davidians and George Bush knew Saddam wasn't making nukes and how many of these do you need before you start to realize that like, hey, maybe America's bad guy Superman from the one where Richard Pryor gives him the isotope and twists him into this horrible thing.
I mean, I don't know because it's the impression that's what counts, right?
And the truth of the matter is like, wow, when you start counting them up, we're talking about a Holocaust worth of dead civilians at the hands of the USA since the end of World War II and that's really low balling it.
If you consider Suharto working basically for the US as he does what he does and all the rest of those, you know what I mean?
Absolutely.
No, it is hard.
And you know what?
Another part of the problem is the impression is that, yeah, well, but that's what liberals and left-wingers and professors and complainers say.
And that's a real taint too, you know, when in fact like, hey, GIs get made to do bad things.
In fact, that's where I first learned these kinds of narratives was from former soldiers who would say, oh man, we went on missions in Africa and places you never heard of and where we did things that nobody ever knew about, but it was wrong.
Trust me.
You know, stuff like that.
I heard that stuff my whole life.
I learned that from combat veterans really before I learned it from any guy with patches on his elbows.
But anyway, I mean, hey, that's just because Michael Moore says something doesn't make it not true.
Not always.
Right.
Right.
You know, there's, you know, there's a psychological, you know, it is hard to look at.
I was just recently reading an essay by Joseph Conrad that he had as a letter, I think it was an essay.
No, he published it about how he came to write his Heart of Darkness.
And, you know, in the Heart of Darkness, the narrator narrates this horrific vision of what imperialism and European occupation of Africa had done to that country, to that land, country, that land.
And the country is the Congo, I guess you could say.
And what he said is, you know, people turn away.
In a sense, I don't know if he used this word, but, you know, their defenses are up.
It's so horrific.
And in the book, if people have read it, remember, the people listening to them all go to sleep.
When the story is over, they're all asleep.
You know, yeah, haha, the narrator is not boring.
It's horrific.
What you've read is horror.
But people are put to sleep because it's too awful to consider.
So people's defense is hard to, I grew up believing the United States myself, was the greatest country that there ever was, that the United States was for liberty.
I watched those shows every night when I was a kid.
You know, the TV, if I stayed up late, my parents didn't know, and the TV stations would sign off with the national anthem and jets flying.
I believe that World War II was fought, you know, to save us, you know, from fascism and for democracy.
The United States was the banner of freedom and goodness around the world.
In my day, it was the Vietnam War that woke us up from all of that.
You know, today, you know, there are many, you know, different things that have happened.
None of them have actually reached yet the scale, I say yet, the scale of the Vietnam War.
But in its totality, kind of it is, I mean, if you put together all the wars the US conducted, and all the coups, and all the whatever, since Vietnam was finished, you know, you have the Vietnam experience, plus happening around the world that the US military bases that surround the globe, and military activities in dozens of countries around the world and bombings.
You know, but how you know, if you're a person just trying to get through the day, and you're, you know, your sense of safety in the world, which psychologically, by the way, is what we need to have torture, by the way, is also is to find some way to break down that sense of personal safety and security you have, when you don't have that, you start to fall apart.
And there are many ways to do that.
The, you know, the CIA is investigated at the military's investigated it, we read about it now, Guantanamo was aimed at breaking people down and studying that process in new ways to do it, but also on a larger scale using, and they do this today, they used to call it the strategy of tension in Europe, when the gladio led forces were trying to beat back the left, by met by, you know, and in fact, engaged in terrorism in Europe, you know, at the be, you know, run by the governments themselves, to make people afraid to give them a sense that there wasn't, there is no safety, you know.
And I'm always, you know, so to tell people as you and I are doing that your country is not this bastion of goodness, but an awful tyrant, it invades their sense of safety in the world, their sense of ontological security, as a person in living day by day in the world, and the security of all their loved ones, their attachments, and this is threatening to them.
So one must be patient.
Well, and of course, you know, the irony, of course, is, as Ron Paul said, in his big fight with Giuliani, is if we think that our government can just go around the world killing people like this, and not suffer consequences, then we delude ourselves at our own peril, that this is what's jeopardizing your security.
You know, we're remaking the old bumper sticker website now.
And I saw one of the old ones that I made in 2003, was from late in 2003.
CIA report came out said the invasion of Iraq has increased anti-American terrorism all across the Middle East, and numbers of al-Qaeda recruits and all of this stuff, before the first year of the war was even up.
And I remember at the point of the sticker at the time, people maybe don't remember now.
But at the time, the narrative, you know, and I just drove for a living.
So I was just listening to AM, you know, news hour, nevermind Rush Limbaugh and whatever, but just the news at the top of the hour.
The question always in the polls was, now that we've invaded Iraq, do you feel safer?
And of course, the government was saying, yes, Saddam's going to nuke you in your jammies if we don't invade.
And so people would say, yeah, I feel safer, when in fact, they were being made less safe, you know, by far, nevermind the people in the Middle East and the chaos that was being brought to them.
But this childish and superficial need to feel safe, actually is what's jeopardizing people's security big time, because they end up giving a blank check to the likes of George Bush, Barack Obama, and Donald Trump to take good care of everything for him.
And look what happens.
The American people give George Bush a writ to kill 400 men, and he kills a million, and got another million killed with his predecessors, too.
And we now have, you know, probably tens of thousands of these Bin Ladenites across the Middle East now, not necessarily all of which threatened the US and Europe, but still, we have 400 men when this war started in 2001 on the other side.
You know, speaking of Pearl Harbor, they did pull off a Pearl Harbor type attack, but they didn't have any zeros.
They had to steal our planes to do it.
And there was no, you know, Imperial Japan standing behind them, right?
It just, it was like, well, this, you know, half fits your narrative, but the other half doesn't.
It's 400 men got away with bloody murder, all right.
Boy, oh boy.
But to turn it into this, I'm just ranting now, but yeah, didn't have to be this way.
Didn't have to be this way.
And it was, and people, and it wasn't just George Bush, right?
George Bush was leading the parade.
Him and Dick Cheney were leading the parade, but the American people, more than half of them by far, lined up and said, yeah, you've convinced us to be afraid of Iraq for Christ's sake.
Let's start a war against a country that didn't attack us.
Said, you know, something on the order of 200 million out of 300 million Americans.
So.
No, and I had personal acquaintances who went along with it.
People I respected up to that point.
People who were ostensibly quite intelligent.
Why?
Because at bottom, they were afraid and it made them feel more secure.
We have an enemy, you know, fight, flight, we have an enemy.
You know, the people who I count on to make me feel secure in the world, they're telling me they're an enemy.
I can't question it, even though I know it's wrong.
But over time, yes, it sets up a feeling of dissonance within them.
And people maybe who are ex-cab drivers like you and by the way, me and others who, who maybe look at things that are more open to, to seeing the world as it really is, you know, can question it and try and bring this truth back to the others.
Well, it really is like that, right?
With the cab drivers, it's just like an Orwell where, you know, the pearls can even have a little antique shop hidden away somewhere.
Nobody really cares, right?
The, all the propaganda is for the party members.
And I definitely know this from, from that era was every cab driver I knew and every bartender I knew.
And for that matter, every drunk I knew, all knew better, all knew better than attacking Iraq.
But whenever I'd take a dentist home from the airport, oh man, he knew about just how bad it all is and blah, blah, blah.
Cause this is a huge part of his identity is the Republican party and his social class.
And that this is what we all think must be done.
And he didn't want to hear that Saddam doesn't do 9-11, you know, he knows he did otherwise, why are we attacking him then?
And all that.
So it's all the people with the, you know, advanced degrees who are the ones who are, you know, the propaganda is mostly for them in the first place anyway.
And, and they all fall for it.
And all the regular powerless people know better, but can't do a damn thing about it.
Yeah, I know.
But seriously though, with Saddam, that's the thing though, man, is here's a guy wearing a beret, like a Frenchman who shaves his chin every morning and clearly only worships himself, who has obviously nothing whatsoever to do with Osama bin Laden's agenda.
And we should never let it wear off how outrageous it is that they were able, as Bush said, one of the, this is a direct quote, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terrorism.
Yeah, well, he sure did make it that way.
You know, what a shoddy excuse and that they were allowed to get away with that, that the American people lined up behind that and that there's been no accountability for them getting away with that since is just, man, that's one for the history books right there too.
Somebody write up a report.
Well, the American people didn't completely line up.
There were huge demonstrations.
Well, that's true.
Those were the last demonstrations of any size, at least in terms of an anti-war demonstration I've seen in this country.
And we're talking about 2003.
And including in Austin here, which is, it is a liberal town, but there were, you know, maybe 20 or 30,000 people on February and March 15th of 2003 here.
Yeah.
That's for sure.
But you have to have who brings out these people or organizations.
And the organizations that can bring people out today as they have, you know, most recently in gigantic demonstrations aimed mostly against Trump, but sometimes in large demonstrations, not as large, thank goodness, but, you know, aimed at, you know, promoting some, you know, anti-abortion thing or something.
These are, somebody has to organize it.
Someone has to do it, to get out the word, to, you know, to police it, to put the, you know, the porta-potties there.
And the institution of the official opposition, the U.S. government, the Democratic Party is a total pro-war party now.
Yeah.
And that includes Bernie Sanders.
Yeah.
I mean, he always was bad.
He's not the worst of them, but yeah, he never was reliable.
That's for sure.
At least he wouldn't rely on, you know, you saw something when he stood up against Kissinger, but in general, you know, they all go along with what today is extremely dangerous, pro-nuclear war, pro, you know, where you sometimes see the fight backers, you know, some within the military who know better, who know what will really happen.
They know.
Well, you know what?
Some of us are journalists like you.
Some of us are interviewers of journalists like me.
Some people out there are really just all about the networking and the organization.
They have the vision and the capability to do stuff like that.
So for those of you in the audience, you know, you don't necessarily have to create new groups, but how about join one and help make it bigger and better and help do this kind of thing?
Everybody's got to figure out their role in this somehow.
Right.
Right.
Hey, listen, man, I got to tell you how much I appreciate your journalism.
It's a hell of a lot, but I better let you go so that we're at a solid hour here.
Yeah.
Okay.
I appreciate your work as well.
Very much.
All right, everybody, that is the great Jeffrey Kay.
You can follow him on Twitter.
And he's got this article at Medium, and I'm reprinting it at, we're just linking to it today at antiwar.com, but I'm going to go ahead and reprint it on the Libertarian Institute site, libertarianinstitute.org.
It's the long suppressed Korean War Report on U.S. Use of Biological Weapons Released at Last.
And you'll find it on my Twitter too, if you follow me on Twitter, at Scott Horton Show, you'll be able to find the link there, the great Jeffrey Kay.
And again, he's the author of the book, Cover Up at Guantanamo.
And this is a couple of particular cover ups there.
There's more than a few.
All right.
And that's it for me.
So, scotthorton.org for the show.
Also, youtube.com slash scotthortonshow got all 4,600 something interviews up there for you now at youtube.com slash scotthortonshow.
So, subscribe to that.
Buy my book and read it.
Everybody loves it.
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It's called Fool's Errand, Time to End the War in Afghanistan.
And that's at foolserrand.us.
The audiobook should be out any minute now.
I don't know what's taking them so long, but it's pending review still, but it should be out any minute now.
And yes, read by me.
So, keep your eye on foolserrand.us for that.
And then antiwar.com and libertarianinstitute.org.
I'm the editor of the former and the managing director of the latter there.
So, go there and read things.
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Thank you.
Bye.
