For Pacifica radio February 3rd 2019, I'm Scott Horton.
This is anti-war radio Aren't you guys welcome the show it is anti-war radio.
I'm your host Scott Horton I'm the author of the book fool's errand time to end the war in Afghanistan and the editorial director of Anti-war.com you can find my full interview archive for the 4,900 interviews now going back to 2003 there for you at Scott Horton org All right, you guys introducing my old buddy Greg Palast He covered Venezuela for BBC TV and for the Guardian during The Hugo Chavez years and he has met with Nicholas Maduro and with opposition leaders And he's written a lot of great books and done some documentaries the best democracy money can buy a couple different versions of that Through the years and other stuff you can find out all about all of it at Greg palast calm How's it going Greg?
Pretty good for me.
I'm in the Switzerland neutral territory and that is sitting with the money a very safe place to be Yeah, there's planet overseas and yet safe from American foreign policy interesting yeah, but I'm like right next to the American money here in Switzerland, but the I did just Get off several calls and contacts with people and journalists.
I respect in Venezuela All right, so listen a little bit of Groundwork here for a second.
You were an investigator for the state of California's Legislature in helping to regulate the energy utilities and things there you have a long history of reporting about oil companies and their motives and different American foreign policies and I know, you know a lot about all this stuff.
Now.
Here's what everybody knows America is pushing a coup d'etat or a coup d'etat some kind of French term there in Venezuela right now.
They've recognized this opposition leader as the president Although so far the military is sticking with the last guy Maduro here But we're right in the middle of that now so far There's no bloodbath But we don't know exactly it very well could go that way if the Americans continued to push and we know the history of America in Latin America How far they're willing to go and look at who we're talking about in charge here Wall Street Journal says as soon as they're done in Venezuela Cuba and Nicaragua are next Because John Bolton saith so and so that's where we're at So I want to know from you from your perspective Greg really why is this where we're at?
What's the real big deal with?
America's problem with the Maduro government and I guess what I'm really asking is which brand name oil companies are behind this and which ones aren't Just saying I was gonna Time to research this but maybe you could tell me is there any oil in Venezuela?
I'm thinking.
Yeah Yeah, okay according to OPEC Venezuela has the world's largest reserve of oil about twice the amount of oil it that's in Saudi Arabia We ain't talking a little bit of oil We're talking about the mother load of oil and that's what it's about when you talk about Venezuela It's about the oil and the oil and the oil are the three topics Now supposedly the u.s.
Is concerned about the state of democracy in Venezuela Whereas with the other oil ocracy Saudi Arabia We don't seem to be concerned that it's run by a bunch of dictators and bathrobes or as we call them the Royals Nor are we concerned about red China and its state of democracy as long as it's producing Cheap junk for a Walmart stores with terrorized labor forces So, you know democracy is not our concern in Venezuela The oil is and in particular the reason it is it's you know Look if Venezuela played ball with our oil companies, no problem but they but they haven't the the current mud the Nicolas Maduro government which Maduro was kind of a hand-picked successor when Hugo Chavez was dying he he his blessing got Maduro elected and the Chavista government under Hugo Chavez Chavez required the American British and and and other oil companies to Increase the state's percentage of the ownership of the oil fields to 51% that Venezuela But you know as soon as the u.s.
Heard that Venezuela Was was saying that Venezuelans should control Venezuelan oil how dare they Exxon pulled out and sued Venezuela in International courts and has been trying to push the US government to overthrow To overthrow that government before and since and so now it's gotten very very serious So as far as the oil companies go, it's Exxon really that's the problem here Exxon is the is the leading force in pushing for an overthrow BP is making noises because they would like to grab some of the Some of the oil they've been locked out of Venezuela And now but what about the Cokes because I know the Cokes say they don't like Trump and they're not even gonna help support the Republicans in the next election is how much they don't like them And I know that you taught me before that actually they're the only ones with a refinery down there in Corpus on the Texas Gulf Coast That's capable of refining heavy Venezuelan crude.
And so what's their company's role in this?
I'm laughing because basically you're writing the the truth out Story that's about that's gonna be coming out It is behind a lot of this are the Koch brothers Just to for people to understand Koch Industries has the some of the America's biggest oil refineries on the Gulf Coast Corpus Christi area and They can only they can't use Texas oil even though they're in Texas it Texas oil isn't polluting enough or filthy enough you they actually require Super heavy oil.
There's only two sources of that oil.
One is Venezuela in quantity.
One is Venezuela That's where they get it now So the Kochs are captive customers of a Venezuelan government and they're paying through the nose and they don't like that The Koch brothers now, they have one alternative which is bringing in the cheap tar-sands crud from Canada which requires You know using eminent domain across the entire body of the United States to move can't oil from Canada to Texas Talk about the Keystone pipeline you're talking about there behind that Yeah, I called the Excel the Keystone pipeline Excel section, which is the means extended length and So basically the Kochs need either to elect a president which they did who would order the building the Excel pipeline But it's still delayed and there's still problems or you can overthrow the government of Venezuela And get a guy who has already pre promised That he would resell off and cut deals with the US oil companies and Again, it's that not that the Kochs have an oil company in Venezuela.
They are the the main customer They're the number one customer for the oil of Venezuela and they don't like paying the premium and they don't want to okay So now but what's the history that because they got along?
Okay with Chavez It was Maduro who just said we want a bigger percentage and that changed their mind about Venezuela What month of what year?
No, actually the Kochs have always always hated Chavez They were always at violent loggerheads with the Chavista government because the Chavista government even though heavy oil generally is charged below market for average oil The Chavistas then Hugo Chavez is a very smart cat.
I've talked to them many times About this in particular.
He knew that he had captive customers and he really cranked it on the Kochs.
They didn't like it and For example, you know as you know They were always helpful with the Christian right Pat Robertson actually called for sending down an assassination squad to eliminate Chavez and in fact though Apparently from the tapes I received I reported that Wackenhut corporation May have been involved in such a problem and in such an attempt on Chavez But it under Maduro it's the the problems have continued except the one thing is is that the Maduro government is in deep trouble It was very unpopular.
I want to tell you that he was definitely democratically elected.
He is the elected democratically elected the president of Venezuela whether we like it or not.
I was down there for the elections sure fair in in Venezuela than in Florida or Georgia and But then he became unpopular as the price of oil plummeted and understand that Venezuela's an oil state all its money comes from oil They've never been able to diversify and as a result all their social programs Chavez brought for the first time free education free medical care subsidized food Subsidized housing to Venezuelans, but once the price of oil plummeted to under $50 a barrel They could not continue to provide those social services that people had a long relied on and so they are angry at Maduro Isn't that or is it that they?
Destroyed the currency trying to continue to pay for all those things anyway Yes, that's right, they did the they they did several mistakes and I by the way, I known The president Maduro.
I know the vice president very well.
I know the opposition as well.
I'm gonna tell you right now Maduro is way over his head.
He's not he does not have Chavez's strategic or economic background he does not have Chavez's charm and leadership qualities and So, you know he used kind of brute tactics number one is just printing up a whole bunch of money When they ran out of the ability to subsidize To subsidize social services, and of course, you just keep printing money and pretty soon.
It's worthless Which is what it is right now The second is that he then slammed on price controls and you put price controls on food And you know what happens Food disappears off the shelves as it moves into the black market or goes out of the country where it gets a better price So he made terrible mistakes and and I would say that Frankly, his popularity is only turned around in his favor this week because of Donald Trump and the blatant and open Plan to overthrow the elected government, right?
Which surprise surprise that that things would turn around and people would rally against him Scott Horton show is brought to you by the war state by Mike Swanson It's a great history of the rise of the military-industrial complex after World War two the Truman Eisenhower and Kennedy years I think you'll really like it and check out all of Mike's great Investment advice at WallStreetWindow.com you want to learn how to survive this stuff WallStreetWindow.com But now so in the election If he's done such a bad job How come he won and by the way, I gotta admit I've seen a lot of Kind of repeated slogans about what a rigged and terrible messed up election it was but I haven't seen many details about that I'm perfectly open to the possibility But then again, it sort of looks just like the George W Bush years and the color-coded revolution where this is what you do is essentially you refuse to accept that you lost and you just stay out there and complain about it and fight about it until somehow you do a push and Cancel the results of the election.
You don't like Well, what's happened is is that you know, I followed the elections here that fall elections.
I just came out of Georgia I would not call that the midterm election in Georgia.
I wouldn't call that something close to democracy I'm not talking about Georgia in Asia.
I'm talking about Georgia in this in the 19th century in the USA But so, you know we have our troubled election state at least and if you know Greg palace if you know my writings You know, it's been a lot of it has been on the theft of elections the Carter Center, which you know, which Which you know reviews elections worldwide Has said that elections in Venezuela are fairer than they are in the United States But I would say since the election of Maduro, which was a fair election because the opposition has never had any good Alternatives to the Chavistas the Maduro won however understand this the leader of the opposition quite though that when I say leader of the opposition the guy who's trying to overthrow the Government by inviting in US military Intervention if you can imagine thank you very much.
Well, I'd rather turn down your invitation He was head of the National Assembly now.
Most dictatorships do not allow The opposition to take control of the National Assembly And what's amazing to me is that they're saying?
Oh, he's claiming that he that his family's being harassed harassed Understand this man is actually called for u.s.
Military intervention.
He did that with Amanpour's interview with him and And that's one thing is causing Massive demonstrations in Venezuela not by Chavistas But by some even right-wing people who really don't want to have to fight American troops on the beaches And they will just like in America.
We may not like Trump, but if we were invaded tomorrow morning you know by Mexico or Russia or whatever Believe me most Americans would rally around our flag as they will in Venezuela so this is a terrible mistake by Guaido, but on the other hand, maybe not because The US government has recognized him as the real president Even though he's gotten no votes the Canadian government which surprising surprise surprise is the number one competitor to Venezuela in heavy oil has recognized Guaido and You know the European Union that great bastion of democracy is recognized Guaido and even more the US government has Seized the assets of Citgo oil on one hand We're complaining about the seizure of an oil company and the US government has seized is effectively see Citgo oil Which is Venezuela's oil company gas stations in the United States And you know so and we are and we have said that we will release that money and Britain has said it will release Venezuela's gold held in The British Treasury That the the Brits will only give Venezuela's gold to Guaido and the US government will only give the oil money Which is owned by the Venezuelan people to Guaido and there's a great fear I just literally got off the phone with respected journalist William Catamaros in in Caracas who said the the Worry is that the money will be used By Guaido since he's already talked about violence and using violence to take power That it will be used to buy guns as the Contras bought guns to try to overthrow the government of Nicaragua back in the 80s So, you know, we unfortunately Latin Americans know the history of the US and Latin America and it ain't always been pretty so they you know Because of what we've done before I say we the American governments and oil companies and militarists have done before You know, we've scared the hell out of the Venezuelan people They might not be crazy about Maduro and if you held another election, he probably wouldn't get reelected but the the hell if they're going to support a coup d'etat theft of the nation's Treasury and gold and Military and an invitation to military invention intervention plus by the way, he's called for Mutiny an uprising by the by the armed forces in Nicaragua against their government and you do that in the United States We have a law called the United States Constitution, which says there's there's a penalty for Calling for the violent overthrow of the government It's the death penalty and yet the I have to say Maduro has been a hell of a nice guy letting this guy run around And do international TV interviews and he just gave a speech this week at at the National University while calling for the violent overthrow of the government Astonishing when he said to that he's had secret talks with the military But so here's where we are now as we're recording this on the 1st of February Is that the military has essentially laughed at his face?
Not only did they say no they said hell no It doesn't seem like there's really a break inside the military there So now either the coup just fizzles and it goes nowhere because you either are in charge of the military or you ain't the state essentially right or then America doubles down and Perhaps attempts to create right-wing death squads to fight But I mean do they even have a constituency to arm up there?
It doesn't seem like they really do I know there are a lot of right-wing protesters and a lot of people, you know, who who who disapprove of the current situation and from the right but The idea that they're gonna necessarily just be able to turn them into right-wing death squads and start a civil war or something It doesn't feel right to me doesn't seem like probably that's next But I don't know what they're gonna do then because otherwise they've already lost, right?
Well, I could tell you how it works on the ground in Venezuela where it's been a lot of time, especially, you know remember that back in 2002 the New York Times and the US State Department said that a popular distaste and hate for Chavez led Chavez to resign from office and he's Disappeared.
In fact, he was kidnapped by a rump faction of the military Backed by the US State Department and and I was with BBC television.
We have all the documents we have the tapes for God's sake and The u.s.
Tried to foment this coup d'etat.
They actually kidnapped Chavez and then a million people came out of the poor areas and filled the Capitol and threatened to murder all the coup leaders unless and it was headed by the by the way by the The head of the Petroleum Association in in Venezuela who named himself president just like this guy Guaido is named himself president and You know people can and and so then they were under fear of getting lynched They returned Chavez to office the military stood by the elected government They are somewhat like the US military in that, you know It'd be pretty hard to convince the US military no matter who is president to overthrow the elected president Venezuelans are very proud Patriotic people and they are not going to overthrow their elected government at the behest of foreign oil powers It's just not going to happen though what may happen and I could see this might actually end up in the overthrow of the Maduro government is this Financial squeeze where they've literally the British government has seized Venezuela's gold and when you say the British government is when I work with the BBC When I talked about the British Intelligence Agency, am I I talked about mi6?
I said, what is their relationship to BP and and and one of the board of directors of British Petroleum said to me Mi 5 and mi6 are British Petroleum.
I mean so you're talking about a foreign Intelligence agency seizing the gold of Venezuela.
You're talking about the Trump government seizing the oil company oil assets and oil monies of Venezuela and the Venezuelan people.
It's not it's not the Venezuelan oil company It's the Venezuelan people's oil company and but that may result in in such an economic collapse in Venezuela That people will feel that they have no choice if they want to eat if they want to function They will have no choice but to let in effect the u.s But you know the Trump administration named their president.
I've seen this happen I've seen this happen in other countries before where they basically throw up their hands because people have to survive that may work I can tell you this it military intervention will not work You will have every Venezuelan right left center.
You name it Hit the beaches with their own weapons to fight off an invasion.
It would be like Bay of Pigs except bloodier and awful I hope this never I can't imagine that Even agent orange in the White House would come up with something that nuts Well, I mean and when Bolton Bolton had his notepad with 5,000 troops to Colombia written on it What are 5,000 troops gonna do who do you get that advice from Paul Wolfowitz or something give me a break Yes, so I don't know what that was supposed to be but it was nothing so but now let me ask you this as long As we're talking about this the economic squeeze here many of the defenders of and even critics of the Venezuelans have said that the worst of the hyperinflation actually came after the sanctions and because of the sanctions because Part of them was actually the removal of Venezuela from they weren't specific they said International banking system, so I don't know if they meant the Bank for International Settlements and Swift or what?
I don't know the details But they essentially they were saying that it was the the Treasury Department's war against the Venezuelan economy That really destroyed their currency more than just monetary inflation did but do you know the timeline on that and whether that really?
Holds up.
Yes.
Oh, well starting last year The US government was able to cut off I mean We've run an embargo and when I say embargo don't think about ships in the ocean like during the Cuban Missile Crisis Or something like that.
This is an act of war Embargoes are active wars and and today you don't put ships out in the ocean to embargo a nation What you do is as you mentioned people may not know what Swift is It's the international system for clearing currency movements and clearing checks Internationally and you can't function without being able to move, you know Like Venezuela sells oil at a Citgo gas station in New York It can't get that money if if they're cut off from the Swiss Swift system, and of course the US has literally cut off transactions to Venezuela You know, I can't I have a guy a photographer down there.
I can't pay him for his for his photographs Because I would literally be breaking US law now people don't realize that any monetary transactions with Venezuela the British government the European You know the European Union have all done everything that they can to cut off Nicara excuse me.
I keep saying Nicaragua because it's kind of a repeat of what we did in Nicaragua You know that failed but what we've done to Venezuela is make it impossible for them to operate no nation Co-estand this it's not a matter of that.
They're being badly managed.
And by the way, I think that they are being badly managed by the Maduro government however Canada if we embargoed did the same thing to Canada and said we will not take your oil We will cut off payments to Canada for your oil and resources You will have no ability to clear your checks internationally Canada would implode and so it's not you know Does that mean that Canada's badly run or terribly run or that they have a dictatorship?
No, it just means that when you're under the financial Siege and it's really a siege It's almost impossible to maintain an economy.
And again, I'm not saying that Maduro knows how to handle this crisis situation.
Well, but He didn't create the crisis.
Yeah.
Well, and I want to get back to also apparently from the point of view of the majority of Venezuelans They still prefer him to the right because the right doesn't have anything to offer that they're willing to accept And of course all of this is just assuming any of this is America's business at all.
We're just talking about Because because you know people's opinions Do weigh heavily here and there are a lot of people rallying around this This is another like bombing Syria moment where people love Donald Trump all of a sudden because he's harnessing American power to do good in the world.
So people are looking at it that way so I always the first question always is how is this the US government's fault first and And then we get to everybody else's responsibility because they are the only trillionaires in the world the US government They are the world empire.
And so they are the deciders of so many of these things So that's why I try to really emphasize that because America is the eight trillion ton guerrilla USA is I mean to say That the Democratic Party Has been missing in action They've joined in the in the attack pack and the New York Times the Washington Post National Petroleum Radio the whole gang has talked, you know, they love this guy Why though because he went to George Washington University, he's a white by the way one one thing you cannot leave out of this You cannot leave out of this Scott to understand Venezuela is the racism.
We're talking about a white minority When you look at those demonstrations, they're all white when you look at Guido and his wife blonde wife.
It's Race is at the core of this the white minority had controlled Venezuela for 400 years and suddenly the man that they called a monkey Hugo Chavez who called who identified himself as most Venezuelans do as negro indio as black and Indian and so is Maduro the current president black and Indian So you have this white?minority Elite minority which is trying to take back the control that they lost when democracy finally took hold in Venezuela and That's how you know that that Guido does not have popular support because if you look at him and you look all around him it's the white English-speaking minority and But of course, these are the people that charmed the US press You know with their with their grace and and elite manners and wonderful English but This is not the majority of Venezuelans Yeah, well, I'll tell you what.
I'm gonna have Max Blumenthal on later on he's got a great piece about you know, the inner workings of the right wing here and the how the USA made this guy and his and his group and all of that and including a lot about the Koch's and their direct involvement and they're right at the heart not just of intervention, but intervention in the name of Liberty when yeah, the military and the CIA and the NED are the exact opposite of that and couldn't possibly be a means to that end so Gotta call him out Are we liberating the people of Venezuela or liberating the oil of Venezuela?
Yeah Last letter.
All right, the great Greg palace.
Thanks so much for your time great great to talk to you again Thanks Scott and Lenny bad penny I keep thinking she'll turn up but I haven't seen her in a while, but tell her hi for me.
I will absolutely All right, the best democracy money can buy that's the book and the documentary and all of that Greg palace calm All right, John, that's it for anti-war radio for this morning.
I'm your host Scott Wharton I'm here every Sunday morning from 830 to 9 on KPF K 90.7 FM in LA Check my full interview archive more than four thousand nine hundred interviews now going back to 2003 at Scott Horton See you next week All right, y'all thanks find me at libertarian institute org at Scott Horton org Anti-war calm and reddit.com Scott Horton show.
Oh, yeah, and read my book fools errand timed and the war in Afghanistan at fools errand us
