12/05/12 – Joey King – The Scott Horton Show

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Hey folks, Scott Horton here for Veterans for Peace at veteransforpeace.org.
I'm not a vet, but if you are, I'd like to ask you to consider joining Veterans for Peace.
As you know, in matters of foreign wars, a veteran's voice is given much more weight.
Well, Veterans for Peace is making veterans' voices heard in ways and places where they can really make a difference.
There are more than 175 chapters of Veterans for Peace in all 50 states working hard to eliminate nuclear weapons, seek justice for veterans and victims of war, and abolish war as an instrument of American national policy.
It's the peace vets versus the chicken hawks.
Join up the good fight at veteransforpeace.org.
But we're going to start right now with Joey King from the School of the America's Watch and Veterans for Peace.
Welcome back to the show, Joey.
How are you doing?
I'm doing well, sir.
How about yourself?
I'm doing great.
I really appreciate you joining us today.
The website is veteransforpeace.org.
And my first question for you, sir, is does somebody have to be a veteran to be a member of Veterans for Peace?
No.
We have associate memberships for people who were not in the military.
So you can be an associate member or a veteran member.
Well, there you go.
Now, it's especially important, I think.
Well, and I guess that's why you guys call yourself Veterans for Peace, that people see that there are veterans for peace because, of course, the common narrative is that everyone must unite around the foreign policy.
Otherwise, you're just like the guy who mythically spit in the face of a returning Vietnam soldier and called him a baby killer.
And you don't want to be like that, do you?
And so all of us are on board for whatever the Army is up to, the military is up to at any given time.
And the only break, really, the only break in that narrative is, oh, yeah, well, how do you explain Veterans for Peace, then?
That's a good point.
It does seem like our voice carries a little more weight sometimes just because it's been there, done that type of analogy.
Right.
I mean, you think about well, I think of like, you know, from all the personal conversations I've had with Army veterans, it always sounds a lot more like Catch-22 by Joseph Heller.
And that's if you're lucky, right?
That's if it's not a complete disaster and everybody around you dies in some horrible bloodbath or Reagan doesn't send you off to a secret war against women and children and nuns and whatever, you know.
But then counter to that is the media narrative where this is the tightest run ship in the history of mankind.
You know, we have these these supermen like David Petraeus who, man, they get up earlier than the rest of us and they know exactly what to do all day long.
And they, you know, they're in charge of this huge organization.
Just look how effective it is at keeping us free, that kind of thing, you know?
Yeah, that's a very good way to put it.
I guess Petraeus is sort of on the outs with his latest revelation.
But it does seem that our voice and our message does carry a little more weight with people.
And it's always funny, you know, you can talk to somebody and they're pro-war, pro-war, pro-war, and they say, well, why didn't you join the military?
Or, you know, you've got kids.
Why don't you recommend they join?
I mean, it's a totally different situation.
I can't remember exactly what word for word what George Orwell said, but it's something like all the war propaganda is inevitably promoted by those who will not be fighting.
And I can't remember it word for word, but it's a pretty darn good quote.
Right.
All right.
Well, so now can you tell us a little bit about your time in the Army?
I know you're a former Ranger.
Yes, I was a Cold Warrior.
I was probably the luckiest person you'll ever speak to, in that I was in between all the wars.
When I speak to kids at high school and so forth, I tell them, you know, I never killed anybody, but it wasn't for lack of trying.
I was in from 84 to 87.
And so I was sort of sandwiched in between, but I was always on jump status.
And I like to tell people I used to jump out of airplanes for a living.
Wow.
I've only jumped out of planes a couple of times.
That's a lot of fun.
So that's a pretty good job to have.
And I think that's the compromise actually a lot of people make.
I remember a guy in my cab had flown over the no-fly zone in Iraq back in the 90s.
And his thing was, it's so much fun to fly a fighter bomber that he didn't care who he had to turn into hamburger meat.
His words down on the ground.
It's just whatever.
They're Arabs.
They're Iraqis.
Their lives don't matter anyway.
And I get to fly this bad-ass jet.
And he just put it just like that.
That was how he weighed it.
He couldn't care less about them.
But man, you could not top the adrenaline rush of, you know, which has got to be true, right?
I mean, I would almost kill to fly an F-15 if I thought they'd really let me.
You know, that's a good point.
When my best friend got out of the military, he was a veteran of the Panama invasion in, what was it, 89.
And then he went to the Gulf War.
I think he saw his wife and kids 45 days in a two-year period.
And I told him when he got out, I said, man, you're really going to have to work on it because you've become an adrenaline junkie without even realizing it.
And it's going to take you a long time to slow down, you know, to a normal pace.
Unfortunately, he's got post-traumatic stress now.
And it took me a while to realize that, you know, that he didn't slow down.
And the reason he didn't slow down was because of things that he had saw and done in Panama and the first Gulf War.
Yeah, we hear a lot about that.
In fact, I think it may have been Austin American Statesman that did a pretty good piece about soldiers, Fort Hood soldiers, dying in motorcycle accidents.
And, you know, they get on these crotch rockets and take off down I-35 or the nearest highway at 150 miles an hour because they just can't get up to the level of amped from driving down roads that could have bombs up and down the sides of them, you know.
And how do you get that excited?
And then, of course, you wipe out 120, you're done.
Yeah.
And, you know, the alcoholism is a lot of it.
And when I tell this to friends of mine, they don't really believe me until I can show them, you know, the Department of Defense's own numbers is that 18 veterans a day kill themselves.
And I think it was in July one month period, 38, I believe, killed themselves in July.
And that's a record since they started keeping records on the suicides within the active duty military.
So we lost more people in July due to suicide than to the Taliban.
And, you know, a lot of these people who are killing themselves now are my age or younger.
I'm 50.
So, you know, they're usually my age or younger because the older Vietnam veterans have already done themselves in.
And when 18 people a day die at their own hand, you have to start scratching your head and asking, well, what's going on there?
And it's just, you know, the training and the combat tempo that just never really lets up.
And it really causes a lot of mental health problems, no doubt.
Yeah.
Well, you know, it seems like we still have a pretty big hill to climb when it comes to the common mythology that, you know, the default that to join the military is the right thing to do.
Son, you just go right ahead.
Right.
That's what the boys on the on the high school football team are led to believe that the consensus is, is that this is what you do and there ain't anything wrong with it.
And this is how your grandpa became a man and this is how your dad did, too.
And this is what your coach says.
And and this is where we're at, especially the football games and all the commercials of the Marines dancing around with their little swords and their ribbons and whatever.
I mean, people just love that.
And it's it has especially the advertising during the sports.
It seems like just the subtext is so strong that this is all OK.
This is what we all agree on.
There is nothing controversial about what a great idea it is for you to go and join up the warfare state.
And really the question of, well, what will be your mission?
And can you trust Barack Obama to only send you on a necessary one or not?
That doesn't even come up.
Right.
Well, just that's for the the older adults to figure out the younger adults.
You just go fight and leave it to the rest of us to decide, you know, to pick the politicians, to make the right decisions, to send you off to the right conflicts.
That's exactly right.
It is it is glorified.
You know, lots of lots of chapters around the country of our veterans for peace.
Local chapters do march in Veterans Day parade on November the 11th.
And we did here in Nashville just to have a, you know, at least a tiny drop of peace, you know, within an ocean of militarism.
And it does get glorified tomorrow.
Every month I speak with with high school students about alternatives to the military here in here in Middle Tennessee.
And lots of our people do that just to tell them, hey, look, you know, we've been there, we've done that.
And it's it's not all that the that the recruiters, the recruiters are telling you, that's for sure.
All right.
Well, so here's your chance to recruit some members for the Veterans for Peace, because I know there are a lot of former American soldiers and Marines and sailors and airmen and whoever listening to this audience.
So why should they join up with you?
What what could they expect to get out of it?
What does your organization provide or or what tools can you give them to go turn around and become more effective activists?
Well, we've got chapters all around the country and we've got members, you know, in every state.
And we were adding several new members.
I think this year alone, we added five new chapters in Knoxville, Tennessee, and two or three in Iowa and around the country.
I think maybe another one in Washington state.
And we've added our first international chapter in Great Britain last month.
And it looks like we're about to add on a new chapter in Australia.
So we're now able through a bylaws change to start accepting international chapters.
But I think, you know, we bring a lot of things to the table.
And I think mainly it's our voice and it's our experiences and our one on one meetings with just just a regular person over a cup of coffee.
And, you know, they can they ask us questions as veterans that maybe they don't ask the normal person.
And I just think we have a special voice that a lot of other groups don't have.
I mean, you know, you expect the Quakers to be, you know, against the war and you expect, you know, if you're if you're a Mennonite, you're going to be against the war.
And most Buddhists are pacifists, you know, by religion or whatever.
You kind of expect that.
But when you get to Veterans for Peace, it's almost like an oxymoron.
And that's why it makes sense.
One example I like to mention about three and a half years ago, I went down to El Salvador as an international election observer with with a lot of other Veterans for Peace.
We've been doing it now for about the last 10 elections that they've had since the peace treaty was signed.
And in our particular group of people from all over the world, I think in like 20 countries, you know, when you stand up and do an introduction for the group, you know, I'm so-and-so and I'm with, you know, this group out of Sweden, I'm with so-and-so, I'm this group out of Canada or whatever.
And the 10 of us would stand up and say, you know, I'm Joey King with Veterans for Peace in the United States.
And we would always get the loudest applause because I think internationally people recognize that, you know, America is an empire.
And, you know, there are a few people who have been part of the empire that are now saying, no, what we did was just not right.
And you can't go in invading other countries of the pretenses of, you know, humanitarian aid or, you know, bringing back democracy and blah, blah, blah.
It's just wrong.
Empires are wrong and empires always fail.
They have a hundred percent record on that.
They all fail.
And we're the last one and we may be the last one.
And once this business model falls, so to speak, I don't think it can ever be resurrected again because it just doesn't work.
People are onto the game now.
Right.
Now, you know, I don't know if you saw this thing in, oh, hell, was it salon.com?
It's pretty obvious anyway.
It's saying that a big part of the PTSD is moral injury.
It's the regret.
It's not just that, you know, saw my buddy die, but for nothing or not just killed some innocent civilians, but killed some innocent civilians on a mission that I shouldn't have even been on in the first place, that kind of thing.
And that's what's really stressing these guys out.
But, you know, I know a guy who's a fan of the show, actually, who I met who was a veteran and, you know, went through some pretty hard times, kicking in doors in the Sunni triangle in the Iraq war.
And he was having terrible nightmares, I think, really stressed out, waking nightmares of some of the horrible things that he'd seen and whatever.
And what actually cured him of his PTSD was when he admitted that it was wrong.
And that the whole thing was a big bogus deal.
And that was kind of the catharsis that that let him get over it, you know, and then now he's an activist, of course, and is and is, you know, trying to pay the world back a little bit by promoting peace, that kind of thing.
And I think, you know, for all those guys who are, you know, committing suicide, just maybe they could turn that grief around into something productive.
Because, I mean, I'm not trying to from what this guy said, you know, he's got some real things, you know, here to deal with, but he's just channeling it all into trying to help other people now.
And I forget if if it's y'all's organization that he's directly working with, but I know he is, you know, doing a lot of activism now.
And I kind of well, I like to think that there's could be, you know, people who never really thought of it that way, that maybe they could take, you know, this as an opportunity to go and find something productive to do with their grief, you know?
Yeah, yeah, there's anything can cause post traumatic stress.
I mean, a woman who was raped, for example, or something along those lines can can certainly cause it.
And I'm not a shrink.
And I think we're really more in the infancy stage of understanding exactly the mechanisms and so forth.
And you're trying to work on our cures.
The VA does a, you know, if you if you go to the VA, from what I've been told, 50% of the people tell me they do a pretty good job, 50% of them tell me that they don't do that job.
And I know a lot of people in that system, as far as the mental health end up, you know, maybe it's an individual hospital, maybe somebody in Vermont has a better hospital system with the VA than someone, you know, in Arizona or something that can be part of it.
There's lots of reasons.
But, you know, giving back to the community, if you think about it, your 12 step program in Alcoholics Anonymous, that's, that's part of what it's about.
Once you're a little farther along in your recovery, you know, giving back to the community is definitely one of the things that they recommend people do.
Because I think it's one of the steps, I can't remember, I've never been to a 12 step program.
But if I remember correctly, it is one of the steps, I believe it's one of the later ones, because, you know, you need to have, you need to be sober minded for a period of time.
And then you kind of see that what you're doing is you're connected to the greater good.
I think your friend is probably doing something worthwhile, that's for sure.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, and it's helping him, which is, you know, really good.
Especially considering the alternative that you mentioned that so many soldiers are going through instead, which is just giving up on their shot at life, which I guess would be fine if we were, you know, mostly all Hindus and believed in reincarnation and no big deal, just you screwed up, try again.
But since I don't, I don't think of it that way at all, it seems a real shame for somebody to just give up on their one shot at life and, and not, not be able to conceive of a way that they could have a new future, you know?
Yeah.
And, you know, a lot of those guys have seen so much, you know, the average, I read a statistic one time, and I wish I had the data, but like, the average Civil War soldier fought five to 10 days a year.
You move that up 80 years to the World War II, it's about 45 days a year.
You move that up 20 years after that to the Vietnam era, it's about 180 days because of the helicopter.
And that's when you started seeing a lot of that post-traumatic stress.
And if you think about it, they saw four times more combat than did their fathers in World War II, on average.
And I don't think anybody quite knew how to take it.
And now with the IEDs, and there's no such thing as a front or the rear in places like Afghanistan or Iraq, it's 365 days a year.
And the technology, both of, you know, of the U.S. military and the enemy has just made it impossible for the human mind to bear in some ways.
And it's a really, it's a really sad testimony, you know, that so many of these guys are suffering and we're just now starting to deal with it.
You know, the drugs is an important part of it.
Counseling is an important part of it.
And like your friend is doing, giving back to the community is a large part of it as well.
Yeah.
And, you know, I don't know if David Hackworth was a member of Veterans for Peace or not.
Was he?
I don't think he was.
Well, anyway, he was the guy that ran Soldiers for the Truth.
And I guess my understanding is that he was the most decorated non-commissioned officer in Vietnam, something like that.
No, he was commissioned.
He was a full colonel when he got out.
Oh, OK.
Well, I don't really understand how that crap works anyway, though.
But his whole thing was he fought for the enlisted guys against the officers because he the way, you know, that was all I ever heard him say, pretty much was other than debunking the reasons to have a war in Iraq.
He was always talking about trying to get people to understand how little the officers care for the enlisted men.
And so you had to figure, you know, the civilians in the Pentagon and at the White House, they care even that much less.
And despite all the mythology about how the lowliest private is our golden idol that we all worship and whatever, the truth is, if there's too many coming in at a time, they'll throw your corpse in the garbage dump literally.
And if the V.A. is full, they'll just kick your ass right out on the street.
And and they only care so much.
You know, you say 50 percent say that the V.A. treats them all right.
Well, you know, the other 50 percent is still a lot of guys who are treated really bad.
It seems like what we need.
Paul Hackworth died of the agent blue disease, the bladder cancer.
But what we need is is armies of Hackworth's, right?
The kind of guys who can say to the Sean Hannity's of the world, shut up and listen.
You don't know.
I do.
And I'm telling you, you know, he was the only person who could do that.
You know, he was always really a pounding home the message of mission creep, that that was our problem in Vietnam.
And as if I remember correctly, he's still alive.
You know, when we invaded Iraq and he said, this is going to turn into mission creep.
This is sure is the world that, you know, you first go in there to do this.
And then, well, that is not going quite so good.
And this just sped up to do this now.
And the mission changes every six months.
And that was always a complaint against George Bush during the during his Iraq invasion was that he never really, you know, answered that question that Cindy Sheehan always had of, you know, for what noble cause did my son die?
And he never really came up with that answer very well in the minds of most Americans or the minds of most people in the world, really.
Yeah.
Well, and, you know, you think about the meat grinder that was the Iraq war for all those years and never mind the poor Iraqi people in the case of this argument.
But like you're saying, these tours of duty longer and more brutal than than many in history, you know, the way that they compare.
And I hear all the time we're just talking.
I was talking to a friend of mine the other day about there's that famous movie about the Korengal Valley in Afghanistan, Restrepo.
And a friend of mine was telling me about another movie or article he was reading about another valley north of there, even more removed, where instead of having their Restrepo base up on the hillside, they're actually down in the middle of the bowl.
And the first day there, they're just completely fired on from 360 degrees and whatever.
And it's because some catch 22 officer gave them their orders and their ridiculous orders.
But they have to follow them anyway.
They don't have, you know, and the and whatever officer put them in that situation didn't have the incentive structure built into his job description to keep him from doing such a thing.
And in fact, the other way around, apparently.
And so he just sends these guys off to be slaughtered.
You know what?
What the hell?
And to to hold on to a valley that they're not going to hold for very long anyway, even according to the plan, it's all just some nonsense, you know?
Yeah.
Occupations never work.
And yet they've been trying to do it now for 65 years, you know, because at some point the occupiers have to leave unless they integrate into the society or have a genocide.
Like, you know, in the Americas, you know, well, the Indians, there's not a lot of Indians right where I'm standing now, but there were, you know, 400 years ago.
And, you know, but occupation just cannot work.
And it is really something that I think we need to, you know, get a hold of ourselves and finally shake ourselves into believing it, that, you know, you just can't point to a lot of successful occupations because there just aren't any.
If you really get to thinking about it, at some point the occupier has to leave and you can't control everybody.
And nobody wears uniforms anymore except the, you know, the major governments.
But, you know, you certainly don't have guerrillas and terrorists wearing uniforms.
They quit doing that in the 60s.
And so you can't tell who's friend or foe.
And then when you leave, which you have to at some point because financially you can't afford it, guess what?
You lose.
And that's what would so frustrate me about the John McCains of the world when they'd talk about a timetable for Iraq and, well, we can't broadcast a timetable, can't broadcast a timetable.
Well, when we did broadcast a timetable, it didn't change anything.
And that's just their excuse to keep us in there.
You know, the General Westmoreland strategy, if I only had X number more men and X amount of money and X amount of time, I can do this.
And it wouldn't matter what you told him.
If he thought he was losing, he was going to say the same thing.
And that's just, you know, like we were talking about Hackworth.
That's the mission creep that you fall into.
And as soon as you leave, the natural order of things is going to take over.
And that's what's going to happen in Afghanistan when we pull out.
And there's a debate now how we're going to pull out, whether we're going to pull out a few each month or more in a stair-step fashion based around the fighting season and the next presidential election.
But sometime in the next 18 months or so, we're probably going to be gone as a combat force.
We're probably going to have between 10,000 and 15,000 people.
And I don't know how we're going to get them out unless we can, you know, somehow get an NFC-141 aircraft in there to land and start getting them out en masse.
And I think the Air Force is going to have a heck of a job, because at some point there's going to be too few people of American people in Afghanistan to take care of themselves and defend themselves.
And I don't know what we're going to do then.
Hopefully it won't look like the Vietnam, you know, people getting on the helicopters around the embassy videos that we're all familiar with.
Yeah, from the fall of Saigon.
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing.
The politics of this, especially with having Democrats in power, are always terribly fearful of being called cowards and therefore, you know, faux hawkish on all of this stuff.
They're going to be very hard-pressed to, they already have gotten themselves in a political situation where, like you're saying, it sounds like they're really writing the prescription for their own complete disaster, fall of Saigon moment.
Like you're saying, pull everybody out except just enough people to defend themselves, hopefully firing outward in a circle, but not enough to accomplish any mission other than staying so that you don't have to admit to John McCain that you pulled every last guy out or whatever.
That could be a real problem.
It definitely could.
And we'll see if the drawdown has started and will continue.
And, you know, fortunately, the military has, I've got a friend that just died about a month ago and he was an instructor at the Army War College.
And, you know, he told me that, well, at the War College, we're not really teaching counterinsurgency, which is what, you know, Mr. Petraeus was so well known for.
But he says we finally figured out for the second time in about 45 years that no one has got enough money to do a counterinsurgency.
You just can't.
You just can't do it.
And for every person you kill, you make two enemies.
And it's just not working.
So it's going to be a real interesting problem for the Pentagon to pull out people down to a level of between 10 to 15,000 that I'm hearing is sort of what they're planning on keeping there.
But I don't really know why they're even keeping anybody there.
There's not, you know, there's just nothing there that we have any business in.
I don't think the Taliban can come back because I don't think the people want them.
I think they've had, you know, a small taste of democracy, at least in Kabul.
And Kabul is like the fifth fastest growing country in the world because it's really the only safe place in Afghanistan.
Everybody's moving there.
And I just don't see them being able to pull it off.
They certainly were a lot weaker six years ago.
Yes.
Yes, they were.
If we if we left, then they'd have a lot less of a chance.
They would have had a lot less of a chance of coming back to power at that point.
Seems like that's a good point.
That's a very good point.
All right.
Now, listen, I know you got to go and I got to go.
But let me give you a chance one more time to talk about Veterans for Peace.
Obviously, it's Veterans for Peace dot org.
But can you tell us real quickly about some of the working groups, the projects, the kinds of things that people could get involved in?
Were they to join up?
Sure.
Well, our working group concept is to organize either around an idea or a region.
For example, I'm I'm over the Latin America School of the Americas Watch working group, but we've got Bradley Manning working groups and people working on that.
We've got people who are working on counter recruiting or recruiting, whichever term you need.
There's a variety of those.
We've got special projects like we're helping to build wells in Iraq called the Iraq Water Project.
We've got different actions going on all over the country.
And if you're a veteran, if you know a veteran and you'd like to become part of our group as a as a associate member, we'd love to have you.
We need you because your voice carries a lot of weight.
And the more more of you we have out there, the more that the more that we can do.
We appreciate any anybody that wants to join us.
We need you.
Right on.
Hey, thanks, man.
I really appreciate it.
It's always brother.
We'll talk to you soon.
OK, I'll be here.
All right.
That is Joey King from the Veterans for Peace, Veterans for Peace or join up, especially if you're a vet.
But not only if you're a vet, join up the Veterans for Peace, please.
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Everyone else's stickers suck.
Ben Franklin said those who are willing to sacrifice essential liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither.
Hi, Scott Horton here for the Bill of Rights Security Edition from Security Edition dot com.
It's a plain card size steel Bill of Rights designed to set off the metal detectors anywhere the police state goes so you can remind those around you the freedoms we've lost.
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Play a leading role in the security theater with a Bill of Rights Security Edition from Security Edition dot com.