11/23/16 – Philip Weiss – The Scott Horton Show

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Alright, introducing our friend Phil Weiss.
He is a great reporter and runs the blog Mondo Weiss.
He's got an incredible selection of co-bloggers there with him, and they're just on it.
It's the war of ideas in the Middle East.
Welcome back to the show, Phil.
How are you doing?
Good, Scott.
How are you doing?
I'm doing real good, and man, well, first of all, everybody, you've got to sign up for the morning email.
This is how I start my day every day, is reading Mondo Weiss.
I get your email, too, man, so, you know, back at you.
There you go.
Man, I really like what you guys do over there.
I learn so much, and, well, it's, you know, because of your chosen topic here, you have a very special kind of comparative advantage over others in the take that you bring and the focus that you bring to the issue of America's relationship with Israel, Israel's relationship with the Palestinians, of course, and all the rest of that.
This is the one I want to focus on for the moment here, is Trump is fostering breakup of U.S.-Jewish consensus in favor of Israel.
What do you mean by that?
Well, right now the Israel lobby is sort of at each other's throats over Trump-related issues, and we're beginning to see a clear distinction between those who are kind of Israel first and those who care about American politics.
So the young Jews are putting a lot of pressure on the, quote-unquote, Jewish establishment to condemn some of Trump's appointments that have, you know, where there have been charges of bigotry, racism, and those organizations and the Jewish establishment have been keeping their mouths shut because they don't want to alienate Trump because they want to have him on their side for Israel.
And some Jewish organizations, though, have come out and criticized Trump and slammed him for these appointments.
So you're seeing a real divide within the Israel lobby itself, and former allies are fighting one another.
And it's a really good sign, in my view, that one thing about Trump's election is that he has politicized the issue in a way it has not been politicized before, and the Democratic Party increasingly is going to be more pro-Palestinian, and the Democratic Party is going to become more hardline pro-Israel.
I think that that's the way things are trending.
Israel has long feared justice division.
Alan Dershowitz is trying to straddle the divide.
He's saying, I don't like Trump, I was for Clinton, but we've got to keep this lobby together because if Americans, if we have an election on this issue, we'll lose.
If there's a referendum in the United States about Israel, we'll lose.
And that's the essential truth of the Israel lobby, that these special interests do not trust the American people to come to the right conclusion on their own about the issue they care about.
Therefore, they have to bribe, influence, corrupt politicians on this question.
And if they fail to do it, and the American people get to actually register their opinion, then Israel is going to be the loser.
Well, and especially as we talked about with Ramsey Baroud on the show the other day, if the American people ever actually had any idea who was occupying who over there, if anybody ever explained it to them straight, they'd flip-flop over real quick and take the side of the underdog because that's how we are.
At least that's how we like to convince ourselves we are, Americans.
Right, although, I mean, you know, how much can we blame?
I mean, how much information to people that you and I have reached our conclusion based on the information we've gotten, how much do we get to blame?
I mean, how much responsibility?
Well, the American people are responsible for not looking into it, but the truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that just pick a neighborhood at random in America, they know what they know from watching the shows, like Donald Trump, and the shows don't ever say, here's a map of Israel and here's who's occupying who, ever, ever.
Right, that's true.
I mean, that's what it really comes down to, I think, is if they don't talk about it on TV, the people just don't understand.
They have to, like myself or like you, they have to know somebody who says, hey, here's what's going on here, or they have to stumble upon a book or an article somewhere that's off the beaten path kind of a thing.
Right, and that information is being suppressed, I agree with you.
And you said we're doing such a good job at covering this at Mondo.
Yeah, I think we're doing an okay job, but the thing is that we could be out of business in five seconds if the mainstream media just did its job and told people what's going on and what the real power dynamic is here, who's controlling this issue.
All right, now, so let me oversimplify this a little bit, and you straight me out, because I guess on the face of it, what I was thinking was that American Jews are, by and large, very liberal.
Like, I don't know, 85%, 90% or something.
They vote Democrat, and they favor civil rights and that kind of thing.
75%, 80%.
75%, 80%, okay.
So then, now it makes sense to me on the face of it that they don't like Trump.
They're terrified of Trump.
He seems like the most right-wing president ever, according to their frame of reference and all of that.
And he's pretty scary in a lot of ways, don't get me wrong.
But now, I guess what I thought you meant was more like the Republicans are going to be just as Zionist, or even worse than Obama and Bush Jr. were, that they'll give carte blanche to the Israelis to go ahead and do whatever they want in the West Bank.
And that because it's the Republicans doing it, the American Jewish population, by and large, won't go along with this.
And because they're really kind of against that policy anyway.
But the Israel firsters, and as we discussed before, the richer you are, the more right-wing you are, by and large, too.
So the people with the most political power and the people who have the closest ties to the Israelis, they don't give a damn about whether this right-wing government in America exports all the Mexicans, or does this, that, or the other thing.
The only thing they care about is Israel.
However, here's the rub.
I sort of think that you actually said something different than that, which was that the Republicans, you think, are maybe going to start leaning more and more toward the Palestinians, and that that's where the split is going to lie.
I think it's, well, first of all, I think no one knows what's going on right now, which is kind of fascinating and wonderful.
And both parties are to some degree up for grabs.
So the Democrats are, let's leave out of the picture for a second the fact that American Jews themselves are divided increasingly, which is driving some of this glasnost, perestroika.
This opening is happening in part because the Jewish community is licensing it.
And again, I'll get back to that as the driver here.
But I'm telling you that I think both parties are a little bit up for grabs right now, in this sense.
Donald Trump, no one's sure exactly where he is on this question.
And they're saying, well, he's got, you know, Jared Kushner as his son-in-law, and he's very pro-Israel, and he's married to Ivanka, Donald's favorite child, or whatever she is.
And, you know, Jared Kushner is very pro-Israel.
He fired me at the New York Observer nine years ago because I wasn't sufficiently pro-Israel.
Okay.
But, you know, Trump has also made some comments about, we've got to be neutral in this conflict.
And he has alarmed the Israel lobby in a number of ways.
And also, he is not in – the Israel lobby cultivates its politicians.
It grooms them.
It brings them up.
You know, famously, you know, Dan Quayle was groomed as a young man by a very wealthy Indiana businessman who all he cared about is Israel.
So he schooled Dan Quayle when Quayle was entering national politics.
That's the way the Israel lobby works.
They've never really gotten to Trump.
That's interesting.
I never knew that about Quayle.
Sorry to interrupt, but that's an interesting point.
Yeah, so Trump is someone, you know, who obviously has a rich field of Jewish connections in New York real estate and through his family.
But he really has not been corrupted directly on this question.
And meanwhile, the Democrats are losing party.
And they lost, in some part, part of the finger – part of the circular firing squad in the Democratic Party is, hey, Hillary Clinton was pro-Israel out the yin-yang, and Bernie Sanders wasn't.
Bernie Sanders actually criticized Israel.
Maybe we need to start criticizing Israel a little more.
And so I feel that right now both parties are a little bit up for grabs.
And in the Democratic Party, you see that some major support has gone to Keith Ellison to be party chair, a Muslim representative from Minnesota who has been very critical of Israel.
And even Chuck Schumer, the personification of the Israel lobby in New York, has said he's behind Ellison.
So I think that there's movement right now.
And where it ends up, I'm not entirely sure.
Yeah.
I guess my guess would be that the Democrats would probably end up at least feeling more pressure to stick up for the Palestinians.
Where my take on Trump is that he doesn't know anything about who's occupying who over there, and he doesn't give a damn, and Arabs are brown, and at least the highest caste of the Israelis are white Europeans who speak English.
And so whose side are you on?
That's easy, right?
So I can't imagine in a million years that Trump would ever crack down and tell Netanyahu, which he would have to say, get out of the West Bank, do I look like I'm kidding, or something like that, in order to make it ever happen.
So it just seems like when he goes, oh yeah, a land deal, I'd like to make that whale of a land deal.
Yeah.
But then he says, you know, assuming that both sides are into it, yeah, well, one side wants to steal the land from the other side, so no.
They're not into it, right?
Yeah.
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But, you know, let's note that Trump's base is populist American, you know, and the Israel lobby has always functioned through sort of coastal elites.
It's essentially a Jewish sort of network, chiefly.
It has a Christian Zionist component, obviously, but it's largely, you know, influential Jews on the coast who are the heart and soul of the Israel lobby, and that's not Trump's base.
And so that gives people some concern, which is why there has been a sort of flood among right-wing Zionists to endorse Steve Bannon.
Steve Bannon of Breitbart, formerly, you know, Trump's Karl Rove, Bannon has, you know, he's been pro-Israel at times, but he's also a populist, and, you know, has this white nationalist component, and people are worrying, well, hey, maybe he won't be for Israel.
Maybe he thinks all Jews should move over to Israel.
America's not the...
So there's been a fear about that, and you've seen the right-wing Israel lobby, the Zionist Organization of America, Alan Dershowitz, they've endorsed Bannon, and meanwhile other Jewish organizations are afraid of, have criticized and slammed Bannon.
So I think that there's some real concern that Trump, inside the Israel lobby, that Trump may be up for grabs to some degree, in the same way that the Democrats...
These things are more in play.
I wouldn't say not as much up for grabs, but that there's some fluidity here, and who knows where the parties are going.
And definitely the Democratic Party has only one way to go, which is towards its base, progressive base, young people who are much more favorable to Palestinians.
And so Chuck Schumer, you know, Schumer sees where the writing on the wall, and Schumer knows that the future of the party is with young people who are more diverse and open to the Palestinian story, and that's why he's endorsed Keith Ellison for party chair.
And finally...
It's not because he got his morals straight or anything like that.
It's just his political interest to be better.
Yeah.
He has to.
Yeah, I think that it's the future of the party.
But, you know, the party is in something of a turmoil right now.
And you also have Bernie Sanders saying, hey, you folks were too elitist in this campaign.
All you cared about were elites and raising a lot of money, and winning over Robert Kagan.
Yeah, yeah, and appeals to diversity without, you know, real concern about the working people of the country.
So that's going to be a big fight in the Democratic Party, and I think Israel could be a loser there, too.
Well, you know, the most fun here is all the never-Trump neocons and establishment conservatives who have just mercilessly attacked him and then lost anyway over the last year.
And so what that does is that leaves a big hole in his cabinet, in his war cabinet, where all the worst warmongers are supposed to go.
And it leaves open the possibility anyway that you could get some more realists or paleos or libertarians or, you know, somebody who's a little bit more reasonable about this.
Yes.
Because all of Bill Kristol's men have basically been marching around with their middle fingers sticking out saying, Yes, it's amazing.
And I mean, and what you're seeing is that for the first time in 40 years, well, I mean, the neocons are somewhat homeless right now, and that's a great thing.
You know, they've always been great at moving from Democratic Party to Republican Party, back to the Democrats.
You know, they go from Reagan back over to Clinton.
They abandon George H.W. Bush.
They go from Clinton to George W. Bush, you know, and cover their bases because they're with Lieberman, too, during that election.
And then they mob up with Obama, too, in the ways that they can.
Now, they're trying to mob up Trump as we speak in some ways, but right now, as you say, the Bill Kristol faction is somewhat homeless.
And I don't know where they're going to go, and I hope it's offstage.
Yeah, well, I mean, that's really the fun of it, too.
I saw a thing that said, you know, and counted up.
I'm trying to remember.
This may have been something that you wrote that said, look at what they're facing, right, that if they don't get jobs in the Trump administration, and he does eight years, then we're, you know, very good chance we'd have a Democrat after that for four or eight years.
And by then, these people are all way too old to ever be able to have a chance to start a war again.
This is their last shot.
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, their moment may be over.
Their moment may be over.
I mean, where do you, just by the way, Scott, where do you see Trump on Syria?
Well, now, so, okay, I mean, I think that this is, and as I've said for quite a while, I think this was the major substantive difference between him and Clinton is that she wanted to bomb East Syria and West Syria, and he only wants to bomb East Syria.
And he wants to get along with the Russians.
I think that on the face of it, basically, these are the only two things in foreign policy he really cares about, and he's relatively good or at least better on them compared to the rest of the D.C. consensus, which is madness, which is back Al-Qaeda because Israel hates the Shiites more, which is completely mad.
So, you know, backing off of that is one thing, but on the other hand, if all he's doing is tilting back toward the Shiites again, then that's just creating further problems down the road, you know?
I mean, the real answer only is total non-intervention and just get the hell out of the Middle East altogether because as long as we're flipping sides back and forth, we're building up jihadis and then we're making them our enemies.
Yes, we are, yeah.
And once that awareness can enter the United States, when are we going to understand that these people who are blowing things up in the United States aren't going to be doing more of it, that some of them are just really kind of ticked off by what we've been doing in the Middle East?
Yeah, I don't know.
I think what it's going to take, because nobody wants to listen to a liberal or a hippie, what it takes is right-wingers being willing to say, this is all America's fault and everybody knows that.
George H.W. Bush stabbed our loyal terrorist allies in the back and they've hated us ever since.
That's what it is.
It's because we support Israel and we occupy Arabia.
Come on.
These guys were our friends under Ronald Reagan when I was a kid.
That's not that long ago.
Yeah, good point, good point.
But nobody ever says it that way, right?
History always begins on September 11th and even if there is blowback, well still, they started it and we have to fight them anyway and whatever, right?
But no, we started it.
USA started it.
Like everything, right?
Everything that's wrong in the world is America's fault.
Everybody knows that.
Look at what's going on in Europe right now.
We're ready to have a nuclear war over Russia's Canada, right?
Ukraine, which, you know.
But wait, who's willing to have a nuclear war over that?
Well, Hillary Clinton was.
Okay.
That's what I was afraid of.
Richard Dearlove certainly was, the former commander of NATO who was virtually insubordinate.
Did you read that stuff from the Colin Powell emails where he was doing everything in the world he could to undermine Obama?
And what Obama did there was bad enough, but at least he put the brakes on after the coup.
He managed to stop that, yes.
But yeah, everybody to the right of Obama.
Well, everybody, not necessarily even to the right, but the rest of the D.C. consensus, all the think tank papers coming out and everything were saying send arms to Ukraine, ratchet up the tension in Ukraine, more dead Russians.
I know, it's crazy.
That is another good thing that I think may come out of this foreign policy.
Yeah, we're not going to see that.
And there aren't going to be dogfights over Damascus.
Right.
Now, there could be a much worse war against the Islamic State, and Obama now, you know, I prefer this, it's not the right thing though, is he's now stabbed the al-Nusra Front in the back, our loyal al-Qaeda terrorists we've been backing for five years now.
We're now stabbing them in the back, according to the Washington Post, and targeting them, which is...
Yes, I saw that.
Yeah, Gareth and I were trying to figure out whether Obama did this to try to block Hillary because he thought she would win, or he only ordered it after Trump won in preparation for Trump coming in, because it's the policy that he really prefers anyway.
Yeah, wasn't it before the election though that he did it?
Well, the story in the Post came out after, and I don't think it really said when the order was actually issued, so we were just kind of guessing, you know, trying to figure out what it meant.
But yeah, no, I mean, overall, I think that this is, you know, again, he's not good on Syria, but Hillary is the worst person in the whole world, on Syria and Russia too.
She's Benjamin Netanyahu, or even worse than him, because he's only the leader of some crappy little Maryland-sized state over there.
She'd have been the leader of the world empire.
Right.
Yeah, and her surrogates were saying, we want regime change in Syria.
I heard Hillary Rosen saying that on CNN, and I'm thinking, oh my God, who are you trying to please with that line?
Yeah, well, and they put that, yeah, it was Robert Kagan in them that they were trying to please, thinking that if they could please the establishment right-wing war party, that that will placate and win over all of those working-class white voters you were referring to earlier, because they're all a bunch of Robert Kagan's, aren't they?
Apparently not.
Right, right.
Yeah, it was all, I mean, it's tragic.
I mean, the post-mortem on Hillary Clinton is going to be going on for decades, I imagine, because it's such a stupendous event in our political history.
But the degree to which she was tuned into the elites, it's just, you know, really sad.
And the Democratic Party is going to be wrestling with this for a long time.
All right, now let me bring up this crazy thing that I almost just can't believe it.
When I tweeted it, I wrote, whoa, far out trip, man, because I really can't even get my head around this kind of attitude.
It's just, I mean, I understand it, but it's still, it's just crazy.
This guy, Yaron London, an Israeli media personality, writing in Ynet, instructs American Jews that a little anti-Semitism is good for us.
That's what you wrote here at Mondoweiss.net, Trump aid blows off, Zionist gala is the headline.
What is this about?
Please.
Well, I think that, look, Zionism, and he even says, he says directly in there that Zionism has always been akin to a white nationalist party.
And that's a truth that people don't understand, but is central to the history of Jewish nationalism.
Jewish nationalism isn't different from a lot of other nationalisms that arose in the turn of the century and post-industrial age, you know, 100, 120 years ago.
And so Zionism depends on the idea that Jews are unsafe in the West, and inasmuch as Jews are doing fine in the United States, that's bad news for Zionism, London says.
He says, look, these Jews have gotten too comfortable in the United States.
They don't need, see a need for Israel anymore.
They don't want to support Israel.
So now there's a little anti-Semitism, wow, that's good for us.
And they won't, they'll start supporting us again and see the need for us.
And I think that that is a great point, because it just shows that is the basic kind of E equals MC squared of Zionism.
So, but now he's not saying that this is kind of a silver lining on anti-Semitism, that, well, maybe some more Jews will make Aliyah.
It's not even like that.
This is just straight up, yay for anti-Semitism, because it serves our Zionist interest.
Yes, yes.
And it's an unspoken, I mean, oh, years ago, you know, there is this kind of ancient, I mean, there were some deals between Zionists and the Nazis when the Nazis were rising.
And I haven't even looked into that much because it's such a staple of conspiracy theory.
Nonetheless, it's true that there was some sort of.
Well, Edwin Black wrote about it.
You can cite him.
Yes.
The transfer agreement, that kind of stuff.
You know, I don't know how long it went on.
I mean, obviously the Zionists were not in support of concentration camps, let alone death camps.
But the Zionists were.
They related to German nationalists.
They said, hey, yeah, Germany for the Germans, Israel for the Jews.
That's our ideology.
And so to this day, that's why you say London saying anti-Semitism is good for Israel.
And that's a genuine statement, is that they believe in anti-Semitism.
They believe that human beings inevitably have sort of ethnic chauvinism and hatreds, and therefore anti-Semitism is never going away.
And when it does start to go away, that's just an illusion.
So when it comes back, they're cheering, because that means there's a need for a Jewish state, for Jews to have a place of their own on other people's land.
Well, you know, this so-called alt-right, which I hate to even really bring them up, because I think it's just a few thousand guys out of 300 million, and the New York Times and the Washington Post want us to think that 61 million Trump voters all just joined the Ku Klux Klan, which is completely stupid and ridiculous.
But for what they are, this actual tiny little ineffectual movement of people with no political power that are not to be feared at all.
But one of the things that they always say, and this is sort of in that Steve Bannon way, is, oh yeah, no, we love Israel, see?
Ethnic nationalism, it's good for them.
What do they have other than a little white supremacist colony over there?
Yeah, I mean, that's been one of the worst things about the, I think about, or, you know, the alt-right has shown that it cares about, it loves Israel.
And, you know, it's a little bit of America for Americans and Israel for the Jews, get on out of here, because there obviously has been a rise in anti-Semitism in the last year, and I condemn it.
But, you know, there are a lot of yokels who are inspired by Israel, and Israel's an apartheid state, so it's going to inspire yokels, just as South Africa inspired white nationalists in Europe.
And I should add that, you know, Bernie Sanders is the one who said, you know, hey, not all Trump supporters are racist.
He's made that point again and again.
So, yeah.
Well, and, you know, I mean, the thing about this, too, it's funny because it's just as ridiculous as when you hear these white nationalists talk, hey, 40% of the population of this country aren't white Protestants or Catholics, either.
You know, like, sorry, but that ship sailed a long time ago, like maybe when the slave ships were coming in was when that ship sailed back, you know, hundreds of years ago.
This is no white colony in the center of North America here.
Yes.
And it hasn't been for a long time.
There's been.
And by the way, a bunch of red people used to live here before the Europeans came.
So what you say, it's the reality and it's something that I embrace.
But Jews have lived in America.
I mean, the first big waves of Jews came to America in the second half of the 19th century.
Right.
So, you know, they're basically just like Italians at first and Irish were considered separate and different.
But after a generation or two, they're just honorary white people just like everybody else.
Yeah.
There are millions of American Jews who are just they're just regular, quote, Americans.
They don't even have hyphens.
So how are they supposed to be afraid and feel like they're separate and have to run to Israel?
I mean, that's just not going to happen.
It hasn't been that way for more than 100 years in this country.
Straight.
I agree with you.
I don't think it's going to happen.
I don't think there's a real apprehension about it.
I think that when you look at what the threats against Muslims, those are real, you know, and those are things that people are actually saying.
And so let's talk about who's actually being threatened.
And I feel that in the Jewish community, there's a little bit of like, what about us?
You know, well, yeah, I'm concerned about the rise of, you know, anti-Semitic speech.
But we're doing really well here.
And, you know, and I think we'll be doing well or, you know, Jews will be doing well under a Trump administration.
Yeah.
And, you know, the state here is not about to turn on American Jews.
You know, they might turn on Muslims.
And then, you know what?
You and I both know it's already the case that more than any more than other Muslims, Jews are the ones who stick up for the Muslims because they believe in this kind.
Well, they're protecting themselves, too, but they actually genuinely believe in civil rights and fairness for everybody.
They don't care what your religion is.
They care that you have the right to believe whatever you want.
Right.
That's the American way, man.
Yeah.
Hey, I'm with you.
Yeah.
And anyway, I like pointing that out because, you know, for all the grief that the Israel lobby gets and all that kind of thing, when it comes to who's willing to stick up for Muslims in America, it's Jews more than anyone else.
Yeah, they've done a pretty good job, I have to say.
I mean, even the ADL has, you know, the ADL has gone after BDS a lot and called it anti-Semitic.
They throw that word around like nobody's business, but they have stood up for Muslims with some of these threats towards Muslims.
All right.
Hey, listen, man, I won't take up any more of your morning, but I sure appreciate you coming on the show and talking with me.
Thank you, Scott.
Thank you very much.
OK.
And good luck with those allergies out there.
Appreciate it.
Sniffle, sniffle.
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Mike Swanson knows his stuff.
He made a killing running his own hedge fund and always gets out of the stock market before the government generated bubbles pop, which is, by the way, what he's doing right now.
Selling all the stocks and betting on gold and commodities.
Sign up at Wall Street Window dot com and get real time updates from Mike on all his market moves.
It's hard to know how to protect your savings and earn a good return in an economy like this.
Mike Swanson can help.
Follow along on paper and see for yourself.
Wall Street Window dot com.