11/14/14 – Will Grigg – The Scott Horton Show

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All right, you guys.
Welcome back to the show.
I'm Scott Horton.
It's my show, The Scott Horton Show.
And, yeah, my friend, Will Grigg, he's good on everything, dude.
Including even the Oklahoma City bombing.
Welcome back to the show.
How are you doing, Will?
I'm doing very well, Scott.
Thank you so much for your kindness.
Very happy to have you back on the show today.
Now, I'm sorry, I'm digging through this pile of tabs here.
You have no idea how many tabs I got.
Oh, wait, I know.
We're running it.
Oh, no, we're not.
We're going to be.
Well, anyway, it's at Pro Libertate, freedominourtime.blogspot.com.
Let me type it in here.
Freedom.
Now, so here, go ahead.
Tell them.
Who's Jesse Trenadue?
Jesse Trenadue is an attorney from Salt Lake City whose brother, Kenneth Trenadue, was detained by the federal government in San Diego shortly after the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995.
He had been visiting his wife's family in Tijuana, Mexico, and he was on parole from a conviction for bank robbery.
He was taken to a transfer center in a federal prison outside of Oklahoma City and then beamed to death.
About three days later, his body was supposedly discovered hanging in its cell.
His parents received a phone call explaining that their son had committed suicide in prison and saying that his body was going to be cremated, and his mother, Wilma Trenadue, said, no, you're not going to do that.
We're going to have to take custody of the body and give him a proper burial.
So Jesse was informed of this, and the two of them obtained the body, and then they scraped off about three layers of pancake makeup and discovered that the body had been traumatized practically to the point where it was unrecognizable.
He had been beaten from head to toe.
He had been garroted.
This is obviously a violent death.
But before they received the body, the cell had been sanitized.
The bedding had been thrown in.
Actually, the bedding had been put in the trunk of a car of an FBI agent where it was putrefying and rendered useless in terms of recovering the evidence.
But a few months later, they were able to have the cell inspected by a forensic specialist who found so much evidence of bloodshed within the cell that it was pretty obvious that he had been literally beaten to death.
So Jesse was trying to figure out why his brother was taken to an attention center and then beaten.
And he received a phone call in about 1996, late 1996, when somebody said this might have something to do with the case of mistaken identity because your brother looked uncannily like a fellow by the name of Richard Lee Guthrie who was a neo-Nazi bank robber.
And he had been involved in a criminal gang known to the press as the Midwestern Bank Robbery Gang, but they called themselves the Aryan Republican Army.
They had been associated with a group that was holed up at a really interesting little commune in eastern Oklahoma called Elohim City.
And among the habituators of this little commune were Timothy McVeigh and Andres Strassmayer, who was a rather enigmatic German national who was involved in military intelligence for their country and for the United States government as well.
And there were four or five other people who had been directly implicated in the Oklahoma City bombing plot that gestated there at Elohim City.
And Richard Lee Guthrie was an almost physical twin for Jesse Trededue's late brother Kenneth.
They were the same size.
They had the same build.
They drove the same kind of car.
They had similar dragon tattoos that both had been arrested for bank robbery.
Richard Lee Guthrie was in federal custody at the time that Kenny Trededue was brought into custody.
And what it looks like happened here was that they were trying to tie up a loose end because Guthrie had some critical information about a number of people who were involved in that plot who were assets of the federal government.
Practically everybody of significance to Elohim City had some connection to the federal government.
Many of them were active informants or assets.
There was a woman by the name of Carol Howe who was the daughter of a very wealthy family in Oklahoma City who had gotten sucked into the neo-Nazi underworld.
And she had approached the federal government and wanted to become an asset, an informant for a federal agency.
She was working for the ATF.
She had scouted along with a number of other people a number of potential targets including the Murrah Federal Building in late 1994.
And she was giving detailed and very good intelligence as to the progress of this plot before the bombing.
So there were a number of things that were going on at Elohim City that exposed some of the three-letter agencies of the United States government.
And apparently what happened is that they scooped up this man who basically the distance resembled virtually Guthrie closely enough that people thought that they were the same person.
And they interrogated him so vigorously that they killed him.
And then they tried to cover up the death by making it look like a suicide and rather ineptly trying to get rid of the body.
So since that time, since 1996 or 1997, Jesse Trededue has been trying to find out how exactly his brother got sucked into this vortex.
And in doing so he's been filing Freedom of Information Act requests to dislodge a number of video recordings that have been scooped up by the FBI.
One of which in particular apparently would have very clear footage showing the identity or rather depicting Timothy McVeigh and the company of the much-discussed John Doe No.
2 who is a short, swarthy, heavy set man wearing a baseball cap.
His likeness was circulated throughout the country in the days following the Oklahoma City bombing.
He's been looking for that specific videotape.
And after his family won a large civil judgment from the FBI because of destruction of evidence in 2001, Mr. Trededue put out a $250,000 reward for information that would lead to the identification and arrest and prosecution of John Doe No.
2.
And the FBI displaying its usual mix of arrogance and confidence in proprietary obstructionism has done nothing but hedge up the way and throw up procedural protests and engage in dilatory maneuverings to prevent the disclosure of this videotape which Mr. Trededue knows to the point of a moral certainty the FBI had in its possession.
And just within the last couple of days he filed a motion in federal court in Salt Lake City seeking that the FBI be held in contempt for not only its refusal to fulfill its Freedom of Information Act request but for witness tampering.
Last July there was a hearing held in Salt Lake City where Mr. Trededue was going to call to the stand a man by the name of John Matthews who was an undercover asset for an ongoing – I'm convinced and so is Jesse Trededue – an old and ongoing federal program called PATCON or Patriot Conspiracy.
It began in 1990 and PATCON was nothing more or less than an ongoing false flag operation where the FBI working through a group of people with military background went about infiltrating every group that was to the right of Hillary Clinton.
That would include not only of course the so-called sovereign citizens and white supremacists and people of that ilk but libertarian activists and critics of the United Nations.
PATCON was directly implicated in Ruby Ridge.
It was directly implicated in Waco.
From Mr. Trededue's perspective it's something that's an ongoing threat.
But he was going to have Mr. Matthews on the stand to testify about his knowledge regarding the circumstances surrounding the Oklahoma City bombing specifically the fact that Mr. McVeigh was in the company of an asset of the FBI and he was being tracked all the way up to the point where they deposited the Ryder truck and set the bomb to go off.
In the days leading up to the hearing Mr. Matthews developed cold feet and he contacted a man referred to as Don Jarett although I don't know whether or not that's his name.
In the transcript that Mr. Trededue found of Mr. Matthews talking to FBI Special Agent Adam Quirk in Salt Lake City the way that Mr. Jarett was referred to by Mr. Matthews was his name used to be Donald Jarett.
So whether that's his actual name, whether he's using a pseudonym I don't know.
But he said his name used to be Donald Jarett.
Mr. Jarett according to his biographical information was in charge of the FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force in Phoenix and he was involved obviously in the Oklahoma City bombing investigation as were pretty much all the other agents, special agents, field agents of the FBI after the Oklahoma City bombing.
They're all sucked into the Oak Bomb investigation as it was referred to.
But he's somebody who's been deeply involved in all these operations having to do with the PatCon initiative and with investigating the radical right.
And what Mr. Jarett told Mr. Matthews, Mr. Matthews once again was an asset of PatCon he'd been used to infiltrate these right-wing groups.
He said that it might be a good idea if you either avoid being called to testify, if you're subpoenaed to testify, just go into court and perjure yourself just so you can't remember anything.
All right, hold it right there Will.
We've got to take this break.
When we get back more about the heroic Jesse Trinidou and his court battle with the FBI with the great Will Grigg.
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All right, y'all, welcome back.
So I completely botched his introduction.
It's my friend, the heroic William Norman Grigg, Will Grigg.
Follow him on Twitter, Blarney Con Carney.
His website is called ProLibertate.
It's at freedominourtime.blogspot.com.
Just Google Will Grigg.
There's a famous soccer player, and then there's my man.
All right.
Oh, also and his son.
But that's it.
There's only three Will Griggs in the world.
All right.
Now, so the article is this.
They'll be back.
Pat Con, Oklahoma City, and Jesse Trinidou's Lonely Crusade for Justice.
So Will Grigg told the story in the first segment.
Longest story short, one of McVeigh's, the Oklahoma Bombers, John Doe's, was a guy named Guthrie, and apparently a very innocent man who had nothing to do with anything named Kenneth Trinidou was mistaken for him and then beaten to death.
But unfortunately for the federal pigs, his brother is a lawyer and a great guy and has stopped at nothing now for more than a decade to fight for justice for his brother.
And then his story has, of course, then unwittingly led Jesse, the lawyer brother, to the story of the Oklahoma City bombing and the help that McVeigh had, which, as Will Grigg was explaining there, included a lot of flip states witnesses and undercover FBI informants, etc., etc., which brings us to the current case where he's suing for the videos, Jesse is, for the videos that he knows exist of McVeigh and his immediate accomplice to the bombing who was riding in the truck with him that day, getting out of the truck, and the FBI is claiming that they don't have the video.
And then as part of this suit, as Will Grigg explained, Jesse Trinidou is trying to call this former FBI agent, officer, asset, something, to the stand.
But then this is where the current case comes down to the current FBI tampering this witness, tampering with him and telling him, do whatever you can to not go up there and testify in federal court, which I think, Will, is that not a crime, obstruction of justice and jury tampering and that kind of thing?
If laws apply to federal agents, couldn't they go to jail for something like that?
It certainly would be if the laws were applied with equity.
And if you don't cooperate with the FBI or if you're stupid enough to speak with them without recording the interview and they take down a 302, which is the transcript of the interview, and the transcriptionist decides that you've said something that you didn't say in substance, then that discrepancy could be used to prosecute you for a perjury or for obstruction.
And so what you have here, obviously, is one of those manifold instances where the government is exempt from the laws that it imposes upon the rest of us.
In the case of John Matthews, you've got somebody who obviously knows a great deal of the inner mechanics of this whole PatCon operation, which, as I said, and both Jesse Trinidou and myself, we're both convinced that this is an ongoing initiative.
Certainly, it's morphed into our more standard Homeland Security theater operation, the template that's been used against Muslims and others that actually started with the radical right, and I suspect that they're going to be shifting back to the so-called sovereign citizens now as the FBI is looking for new ways to engineer phony plots that it can triumphantly bust.
That's what they've been doing now for decades.
But John Matthews had approached his handler, this Donald Jarrett fellow, Donald Jarrett or John Jarrett, I don't know how the name would be pronounced.
He's supposedly working as an independent insurance professional in Florida right now, which is not something that his Vita would suggest he would end up doing because this is a guy who started out in military intelligence before going into the FBI and was deeply involved in all these undercover operations targeting the radical right in the 1990s.
But he approached his handler and asked, what should I do?
His handler said, avoid the subpoena.
If it's necessary, take a trip.
If you end up being served and you have to go testify, just sit on the stand and lie so you don't recall anything.
And at the advice of his handler, he approached Adam Quirk.
Adam Quirk is the special agent in charge of the office there in Salt Lake City, and Adam Quirk essentially said the same thing.
And as a matter of fact, when Mr. Matthews said, I might take a trip, what Adam said, well, that's just fine, and then using a vulgar Anglo-Saxon expression for illicit carnal intercourse, said, blank them, meaning that them in question would be Jesse Trededue, meaning somebody who has been working with the federal courts and has been victorious so far.
He has an unbroken string of victories in federal court.
He has a right to receive, through the Freedom of Information Act, the documents he has requested.
He has a right to receive the testimony of Mr. Matthews and what the FBI is saying.
Well, it just sucks to be you.
We are not vulnerable.
We are not under the jurisdiction of the courts when it comes to concealing our actions that may indeed, in this case, definitely did lead to the death of scores or hundreds of innocent people.
Well, now, so how come they can't just subpoena him then?
Why is it just an invocation?
I don't know why they can't subpoena.
I think what they're trying to do is deal with somebody who's very much the sort of person for whom a subpoena would be considered optional.
He could just go to ground, and his handlers and the FBI would be able to spirit him away any place he needs to go in order to avoid giving testimony.
I think that Jesse's approach here is to say, why don't we work with him cooperatively and make it clear that we're not antagonists.
He's dealing with somebody who's fragile and dying.
He's in a bad state of affairs right now in terms of his health.
I think he's dealing with the aftermath of Agent Orange.
He's a Vietnam-era veteran, as were most of the people that were brought into PATCON.
The FBI used their patriotic impulses against them.
They said, we have to be fighting a new war here within the homeland.
They didn't use the expression homeland in the 1990s probably, but we're dealing with a domestic enemy here, and we need your help in order to ferret these people out and expose them.
The sort of cynical thing that the FBI has been very good at doing for decades now is to pervert patriotic impulses and use them as weapons against people who are susceptible to that type of an appeal.
To answer your question, Scott, I suspect that they're taking a soft-handed approach to somebody they're trying to coax into the courtroom.
I think that what they've discovered here is that they can't be soft-handed enough in order to outbid the FBI when it comes to blandishments or in order to overcome the implicit threat that is contained in everything the FBI says to you when they approach you as either a witness or an asset.
Well, but then again, the FBI has a real problem in this Judge Clark Waddups, correct?
Yes.
Quite in defiance of one's rational expectations of how a federal jurist would act, he's been very even-handed.
He's been applying the law.
And what Jesse is trying to do here is to have a special master appointed who would be a judicial official that would have some sort of a custodial role in making sure that the FBI doesn't destroy evidence again because they've been found guilty of that.
That happened in 2001 that Jesse and his family were able to get a very large civil judgment against the FBI because they had been destroying evidence in the Oklahoma City bombing case.
And what they have been saying about the location of this videotape is that apparently it ended up in the same vast intractable warehouse where the Ark of the Covenant is stored because they said that there's so much evidence they collected in the Oak Bomb investigation they simply can't find it, which of course is nonsense on stilts.
Granted, we're dealing with a government agency.
Government agencies are incompetent.
We're not actively corrupt.
And it's always dangerous to impute to deliberate deviousness which you can easily explain through simple corruption and ineptitude.
But this is an organization that was started, of course, by the person who invented the whole idea of file keeping and information storage and retrieval.
And so they do have a certain competence when it comes to finding stuff that they need, particularly if they're going to use it against somebody when they're being asked to provide evidence that will inculpate themselves.
Of course, they suddenly develop an otherwise unwanted incapacity for finding what you're looking for.
But they know exactly where it is.
Well, now Jesse is suing for access to the warehouse.
Let me in there.
I'll go find it in the Arc, too.
Exactly.
That's what he's trying to do.
And all along the way, the federal government's been saying, well, we can't let you look at this stuff because it would compromise the identities of undercover operatives, which is why he and I and a number of other people are convinced that the reason they're being so protective, they're being so prehensile here, is because these people are still out there causing trouble.
I think that Mr. Durrett is not an insurance professional.
He was in Afghanistan last year.
I don't think he was over there doing claims adjusting work.
So what is he doing and with whom is he doing it?
Well, he's out there probably, in my opinion, working with the old gang from PatCon.
And bear in mind, Scott, what's going to happen over the next few days in Ferguson, Missouri, and the fact that there are potential racial fissures that could be pried open very easily here to the profit of people who love to keep us at daggers drawn with each other, the old divide and conquer game.
Suddenly we have this relatively obscure and not particularly well-organized or prominent Klan faction that shows up playing the old Revolution USA game where they're taking the side of the police in Ferguson and saying that they're going to be on the streets willing to use armed lethal force against rioters on behalf of law and order.
I wonder how many of those guys are FBI informants.
I'm sorry, what?
I wonder how many of those guys are FBI informants.
I think you could probably round it up to everybody in that group, because without the active involvement of the federal government, most of these so-called radical right groups, these white supremacist groups, they'd disappear entirely.
That was the case back in the 1960s.
The received folk wisdom was that if you're part of a right-wing white supremacist group, then the guy who shows up who's actually got money and connections, he's the fed.
And that's what they've been doing for the last 40 or 50 years, is keeping these groups on life support for times like this.
Yeah.
Well, and it's funny, too, because I think all decent people would expect the FBI to infiltrate Klan groups and groups like that in order to make sure that they're not doing anything horrible, in order to prevent crimes, not to go in there and provoke them, and as you say, finance them, keep them on life support, keep them going, and make them worse, get people killed.
Yeah.
It's exactly the same template they've used with Muslim groups in this country, where they've sketched out these elaborate plots and that they have gotten people implicated in them to the point where they come right up to the consummation of this terrorist plot, and then the FBI intervenes to arrest everybody and to receive the hosannas of the stenographer press.
The difference with the Oklahoma City bombing, Mr. Trededue is convinced, is that the sting was stung or the trap misfired.
He honestly believes that this is the sort of thing that was supposed to come right up to the point of consummation and then be stopped just before the bomb went off, and from his reading, and I think his reading is very plausible, their chief motivation right now, apart from keeping the people who were involved in this sort of thing secret, is simple personal institutional self-preservation, because if you can make a good case that there's religions of that order of magnitude involved in what had been the largest terrorist attack in American history up to that point, there are some people who not only will lose their careers, but there are some people who are going to end up spending the rest of their lives looking at striped sunlight.
So I think that you've got, first of all, Larry Potts.
He was very deeply involved in Ruby Ridge in Waco, writing the rules of engagement that led to murder at Ruby Ridge, and of course mass murder at Waco.
According to the affidavit that Mr. Trededi got from Nichols, the one co-conspirator that the federal government is willing to admit was a co-conspirator here, is that Larry Potts was the fellow who was calling the shots on behalf of the FBI.
And of course the fellow in the Justice Department who would be supervising this is none other than Eric Holder, and Mr. Holder is nigh upon retirement, and he's going to go off to some very richly compensated corporate sinecure or something in the banking industry, and be up giving speeches for honorariums that will probably have four or five zeros or more after them for every appearance.
But these are people who have left a trail of blood, and Trededi right now is the only person who is pursuing that trail.
And Clark Waddups for some reason in Salt Lake City is a federal judge who is willing to apply the law even-handedly.
And so what they're confronting right now is the adamantine resistance and obstructionism of the FBI, and in doing so every time he goes to court he ends up dislodging something significant, the fact that the FBI was actively tampering with the witness this July, and you've got the names of the agents involved in that.
That's something the public wouldn't have known were it not for his persistence.
Right, and it just goes to show too how interested they are in continuing to keep a lid on this thing.
Even though, realistically, they got away with it for 20 years now.
Who's going to go to prison?
Larry Potts?
None of these guys are going to get in trouble for anything.
Two weeks paid vacation would be the worst they could possibly face.
But one can dream.
Yeah, but I sure would like the truth to come out because I think there's a lot to learn from the fact that they were able to get away with pinning such a massive crime on one guy.
And, you know, hell, we're over time in recording so maybe you've got to go, but I was going to ask you about one more thing.
Sure.
If you read the Gumbel, Roger Charles book where they have, I believe, they have the quotes from the Justice Department officials talking about, well, you know, the choice was whether to just focus on McVeigh or whether to try to go after everybody.
Yeah.
And there was a big fight in the office and the just focus on McVeigh faction won.
Like that's how they boiled down the explanation to this massive cover-up is that, well, you know, some of us just wanted to focus on the one guy and others of us disagreed, but, you know, the boss sided with the other side or whatever.
And anyway, I just thought that that was, I don't know if I have a question there, but I actually could see that in real life playing out a lot like that too.
Yeah, that's how committee meetings usually function is that one side takes the initiative and the side that usually wins is the one that is making an argument that most resonates with the obvious self-interest of the people in the room.
And it was obviously in their immediate personal interest that they find somebody to be like the white whale from Moby Dick, you know, somebody upon whose white hump you could pile the sum of all the sins and the crimes and corruption and say, okay, there, we're going to sacrifice this person.
And in doing so, the public will be placated and our careers will be protected.
And that makes a whole lot more sense than the idea that people are assembling in a hollow volcano like the syndicate from, I believe it's called the syndicate from the X-Files.
You know, usually a conspiracy is more a matter of corrupt opportunism rather than diligent detailed planning.
And I think that's what we're seeing right now.
But the institutional self-interest of the FBI here seems to be driving what's going on with respect to Trentedu's legal campaign here.
And that shouldn't surprise us.
But what leaves me somewhat haunted, as I suggested in this essay, is that these people are out there.
They've not been punished.
They're still active.
They're still being protected.
And we've got every reason to suspect that we're going to be hearing from these people again.
And that's what really caused this leak to depart from me.
Right.
Well, you know, at least as far as getting the truth out goes, at least we have the fact of Jesse Trentedu.
And what a tough guy he is that he has stuck with this all this time, taking on the entire Justice Department and stuff like this.
I'll let you go.
Thanks so much for your time and for writing about this and all that, as always, Will.
Okay.
You take care, Scott.
It's great to hear from you.
Appreciate it.
Bye-bye.
All right, y'all.
That's the great Will Grigg.
Freedominourtime.blogspot.com.
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This article is, They'll Be Back, Pat Conn, Oklahoma City, and Jesse Trentedu's Lonely Crusade for Justice.
That's Will Grigg.
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