Scott interviews Francis Boyle about his attempts to help Liz McAlister and the Kings Bay Plowshares 7 in their legal battle for what he views as justified civil resistance. McAlister helped break into the Kings Bay nuclear base in order to peacefully and symbolically protest America’s illegal possession of warheads that could end all life on the planet. Boyle was part of a team of advisers and expert witnesses with experience getting acquittals in previous cases like this, but the night before the trial they were blocked from testifying, essentially guaranteeing McAlister and the other defendants a conviction. They are awaiting sentencing on numerous charges.
Discussed on the show:
“Francis A. Boyle in Defense of Kings Bay Plowshare 7 Activists” (Accuracy.Org)
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Following is a computer-generated transcript of the episode.
All right shall welcome with Scott Horton Show. I am the director of the Libertarian Institute editorial director off anti war dot Com author of the book Fool’s Errand. Time to End the War in Afghanistan and I recorded more than 5000 interviews going back to 2003 all of which are available at Scott horton dot or you can also sign up for the podcast feed. Full archive is also available at youtube dot com slash scott Horton Shoah. All right, you guys. Time to welcome Francis Boyle back to the show been a little while international law expert and would be expert witness for the Kings Bay Plowshares seven who were convicted at the end of October.
Ah, for their protest at the Kings Bay Trident submarine nuclear facility There. Uh, Yul might remember we had Elizabeth McCallister on this show just a couple of weeks ago What, three days before the trial started, I guess, um, a few weeks ago Ah, well, they were convicted. And so Francis Boyle is here to talk about the trial and what comes next and all the rest of those things. So welcome back to the show, sir. How are you? Well, thank you very much for having me on my best. Your listening audience. Well, great. I’m very happy to have you here, sir. So please remind us about the the Kings Bay Plowshares seven who they are and exactly what happened here. That’s at issue. Well, these are, ah, religious people affiliated with the Catholic Workers and also the Ploughshares movement that was founded around 19 eggy by Phil Berrigan, Dan Berrigan and Phil’s wife, Lizza Macao Alistair, whom you’ve already talked to. And they went on the King’s Bay trying to, uh, nuclear weapons site that has the trying to nuclear subs there on the east Coast. They got in there. They did what? You know, they call to be ah, symbolic disarmament. Ah, they prayed and things of that nature. They were arrested voluntarily. They were peaceful, nonviolent. They did not resist arrest. Andrei Eeyore, United States government indicted them Foer Deputation of government property 10 years Ah, Destruction of naval property five years Destruction of US government property. Five years. Yeah, naval property conspiracy Five years and trust past six months. So, um, we I work Foer Lizza Macao Alistair She was represented by my friend Bill, quickly. Listen, I have been friends for many years as well. Ansar, Uh, her late husband, Phil, and I’ve represented them in other contexts. The other kings make plowshares, uh, decided to represent themselves. And there were basically two. Why would say three approaches to defending them? The first was the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Ah, this is the first time ever to best my knowledge that such a defense was made in one of these PowerShares cases. And then the second, uh, Dan Ellsberg of put it in an affidavit on the basis of his book of the Armageddon machine, which I encourage you read, outlining the necessity defense. And then I had a very extensive declaration. I hears about nine pages long you can find on the Internet. It is stupid. Public accuracy are going through a lengthy international law violations criminal law violations. Ah, by trying to and concluding that they really did not have the criminal intent, uh, necessary to constitute these crimes. And in any event, the government had to prove that credible intent beyond a reasonable doubt. And certainly my declaration had created a reasonable doubt, and the charges should be dismissed Now on the Friday evening at 10 p.m. In the dead of night before the trial was open on Monday morning. The U. S. Federal judge, who is a Bush junior appointee, by the way I’ve dealt with them before, issued an order that struck them off A ll defenses They could not make any of these defenses and in addition, muscle that as to their capability to to raise these types of issues in their own ah, testimony and also threaten them and their lawyers with contempt if they did not know and other harsh sanctions if they, uh missile mater or so after reading your right, I did put out a press release their Mr for public accuracy, saying, This is a kangaroo court with rubber stamp on a railroad towards their conviction. And that’s exactly what happened in court. You could read the transcript if you want. At the King’s May Plough share website, they repeatedly cut off, interrupted They they were threatened with contempt, etcetera, etcetera. So not only were they stripped of all their defenses illegally, unconstitutionally, they were muzzled and threatened on the witness stand. So of course they were convicted. Yeah, Well, so And of course, I just assumed that the jury was full of not the peers of the accused but the peers of the accusers, just like always, which is, you know, a big part of it. Meaning government employees from the local area, probably as well. But now, I mean, I don’t know. I guess if you give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe if they got to hear the defense’s side of the story, they would have at least had a chance. Um, it’s correct. But not only that up, there’s a good chance they would have been acquitted. I’ve worked on these up cases before, Uh, on the first anti nuclear protests case I ever did. Foer Kochs Christie was 1982. Uh, the first Paulish Aires case I did was 1985. You could read about this in two books I’ve written of defending Civil Resistance under International Law 1987 which I wrote for lawyers to use in these cases and made later another book protesting power. More resistance in law. Aah! Brahmin littlefield about publishers 2008. And when we’ve been able to get these arguments to the jury. Uh, we have been able, uh, to get outright acquittals or hung Juries, at least. Really? Yes. I didn’t realize that. Well, and I guess so That was gonna be one of my other questions was how often is it that the judges are this total in banning the defense from even being allowed to put on a case in this way? It’s typical in clashes cases. Yes, they don’t really care that no federal judges here, they’re just part of the federal system. And you have to understand that, uh, the ploughshares go directly at the heart of the American Empire against the Pentagon. Indeed, the U. S. Department of Injustice has a special task force to deal with, Ah, plowshares cases to monitor them, to direct the persecutions, I would call it and always to go for the max to go for the maximum charges and the maximum sentences. And that’s been the consistent pattern that I’ve seen since doing these cases in 1985. Foer Foer the postures. Yeah, well, I mean, let’s break this down a little bit when you say go after they’re doing symbolic protests, they’re not truly threatening to disable any nuclear weapons or, you know, they’re not cutting open the fence of the Al Qaeda terrorist Cannes sneak in there not doing anything other than creatively protest ng and committing acts of civil disobedience to bring public attention to the danger of these weapons. So it goes to show just how important nipping even that is nipping that in the bud is to the state that they don’t want it to look like any old nun Cannes protest a nuclear weapons facility and get away with it ever because somebody else might copy her. And that’s a pretty total stand to take against what on the surfaces. Just kind of, you know, left wing direct action protest tactics, which aren’t really dangerous. It’s like they’re breaking windows at Starbucks or something terrible like that, you know? Well, everything you said is correct. Ghandi. I worked on the case of ah, three nuns there in Denver who went out to an I C B M Silas Ayn cut the fence, went in there and great. And the, uh, federal government. It was again Cannes total Kadima Yul court proceeding before a Bush junior judge, and they were found guilty of depredation and sabotage. And then the United States government demanded 30 years, 30 years, the maximum for both of them. And they were elderly. They were between 66 67 years old. This would have been wife in prison, Minh. Um, and, you know, at the end of the day, they got short of three. So this is typical because the United States government understands this goes right up against the heart of what the Pentagon is all about. Yeah. Yugo into these trials, ex cases which I have you known, you’re up against the Pentagon. That’s is really behind the Department of Injustice. So persecuting these people now, I would only make one correction there. Scotsman Weicker, This is not a case in civil disobedience. Go that, you know, going back to Dr King and the American civil rights movement, the courageous African Americans and others who supported them. Um, this is a case of civil resistance, Uh, in that the crimes here are being committed by the United States. Gotcha. In violation of international criminal law and, ah, us domestic criminal Waal, including, but not limited to the Nuremberg Charter judgment and principles. I outlined these briefly in my nine page ah declaration which you are free to re also U s Army field manual 27 10 um, the Geneva Conventions and other basic sources of ah international criminal law. So and that gets incorporated into United States domestic wall, the U. S. A. War crimes act, for example. So these people aren’t disobeying anything. They are obeying the rules of international law which are part of the United States. Moammar and also us crippled walk in trying to prevent the ongoing commission off crimes. Um and so they are the sheriffs and the people running the trying to system there. The outlaws, I think I just figured out why the judge won’t let you testify. Well, it’s exactly right. And that was all set forth in my declaration if if you read it. But when we get these arguments to the jury’s oh, and I have enough time to present these arguments and we can bring in an expert witness on US nuclear weapons systems like paying Ellsberg that we wanted to do here, we could usually turn around a jury and getting acquittal, if not, you know, Hung jury. Sure. Yeah, I’ve done it myself. uh, by myself. Sure, it’s interesting it on. I’m so interested in the topic of nuclear weapons and and all the politics surrounding them and everything. And I’m just ceaselessly fascinated by how little anyone cares about this, that set when it’s a new story like this. But for the most part, these things they’re just out of sight, out of mind, even though everyone knows enough about them to know that one good Wone Cannes kill a whole city and that that’s bad and that, at best, we’ve got a bunch of lawyers in charge of deciding when they should be used. The same kinds of soulless monsters that would put old lady in prison for life for praying at a facility are the same kinds of people who decide whether to use these or not. And so far we’ve been lucky. But it just sort of goes without saying in our society, and I guess around the world that yeah, well, we’re just gonna all have Or not all but many nations are going to have aged bombs pointed at each other from now on, the Nonproliferation Treaty and the rest of these things you cite notwithstanding and anyway, what’s for lunch and that nobody cares, really. They care more about TV shows and they care about h bombs. And ah, I’m not sure why. I guess Well, we all know we’re powerless to doing there. We feel powerless to do anything about it. That’s a big part of it. But, boy, what an emergency. You know, to think that these guys air holding on toe bombs that are measured in the mega tons when they detonate, right. And in the case of the trident to its use, uh, would probably destroy all humanity. These are, you know, 150 kill Aton bombs, maybe 10 size 10 times the size of Parachini, my Nagasaki and many warheads. And it would definitely set off a, uh, you know, a major nuclear war between the United States and Russia. Indochina and I don’t think anyone would survive human life would be, uh, extinguished. And according to ah, scientific study, Ah ah, the on Lee ah form of life that would survive of the cockroaches because their shells would would resist the radiation. So that’s what we’re dealing with as Foer list Macao. Alistair, hold that thought for just one second because I should mention that, you know, there are are less, um, drastic scenarios for that that still include the deaths of billions of people and widespread famine and essentially, the cancellation of human civilization back to bronze age levels and absolute catastrophe beyond anyone’s imagination. But that, you know, and the Southern Hemisphere, some humans air would be able to pull through, you know, eventually this kind of thing. So maybe it wouldn’t be down to the cockroaches, but it would certainly be. I mean, without question, right? A war between America and Russia would mean absolutely. That question would mean the end of all northern civilization on the planet and and certainly the destruction of billions and billions and billions of whoever’s left after that. So anyway, I just Sometimes people hear, hear things stated so totally and maybe dismiss it that, like, I don’t know, you could have a war where hundreds of millions or billions die, but maybe not all eight billion of us. You know, we would have brought on Dan Ellsberg in with his new book that I would encouraged you read. Oh, I have. And I’ve talked with him about it. Brahmins times. Yeah, I I think dance opinion would have been, uh, using the trying to nuclear weapons system would have extinguished basically all forms of life on the planet Earth and turned it into, ah, radioactive wasteland for cockroaches. That that, you know, we could have had Dan address that precise issue. That’s what we recorded. And, hey, I’m with you. Everybody needs to read the doomsday machine. I mean, that thing will absolutely blow your mind. The indigenous listen, firstly, involved in drawing US nuclear war plans. So he Neo has enormous credibility here. The reason I even bothered to dispute is actually have another friend. Um, you might remember Gordon pray there from the George W. Bush years, right? So much great stuff for anti war dot com to bunking all the lies about Iran’s supposed nuclear weapons program and that kind of thing. And he used to make a TSH bombs for Uncle Sam during the Cold War and knows a hell of a lot about it and says like a you know, if you survive the initial dose of radiation, you’re far enough away from the actual explosions. Um, you know, you’re not gonna The radiation eventually dissipates from that. So you survive that. And then obviously, weather patterns changing and crop failures and all those things, you know? No, I don’t think he discounts nuclear winter altogether, but I think he he also said that Yeah, some of those things might be absolute worst case scenarios to. So then again, I mean, I think at the if this is the low end of the sliding scale that we’re still talking about, billions of deaths were still talking about catastrophe beyond anyone’s imagination. That’s hardly an argument for going ahead and hang on to these things, you know? Well, Dr Helen hold account has written books on the dangers of radiation, and I think she would respectfully disagree with this. Ah, person. Also, Dr Struggle, as is written the book on the radiation. So I don’t think we would have had much difficulty if we had a chance. Uh, establishing in court that certainly the Yusra trying to nuclear weapons systems, uh, would have extinguished life on the planet Earth as we know it, but that, you know, you’re welcome, Uri. Doctor. Cold, hot and stirring glass. Yeah. You know, maybe I should get ah, her and or Dan back on the show to talk about that. And exactly, I mean, the tried and we’re talking about one missile with multiple warheads launched from Wone submarine. And that alone could extinguish all life in France or something. But if you’re saying that, that was if the use of one of those would mean unstoppable chain of events that would lead to full scale nuclear exchange between American Russia, America and China, then that’s a different question, right? Sure. Yeah. Anyway, I’m sorry. I don’t mean to bicker with you here. I’m absolutely on your side. And the idea that you would ever that that any that humanity can even entertain the possibility that we would hold on to weapons that even the use of one of which would kill an entire city worth of human beings is just absolutely, unforgivably mad. So not to coin a phrase, but anyway, right, well, a zay said the The systems on both sides the United States and Russia are on a hair trigger alert that could go off at any time and even in the event of a computer malfunction or a flight of geese or band satellite images or things of that know the cases I’ve worked on. We have introduced evidence of repeated malfunctions on warning systems, so it’s far more dangerous. I think, that most people realize, right, Yeah, there have been at least 20 extremely close calls tow absolute brink of war, which I don’t I’m not really good with Maven’s Statistics and stuff, But that sounds, you know, a cat only has nine lives. We got away with 20 almost h bomb wars over Ms takes right over a bomb that accidentally fell out of a plane or misunderstanding between the Americans and the Soviets over their intentions at different times. And these kinds of things that’s cutting it way, way, way too close. Effect. No, my dad was at U. C. L. A. In 1963 and his professor disappeared for two weeks and came back and said, Yeah, I was there advising the ex Com. And I’m here to tell you kids that this Cuban missile crisis is this close to nuclear war, as we could possibly get without having Wone that is the absolute brink of the crisis. The fact that we survived it is a miracle. Well, and as a matter of fact, if you study all the letter drawn the Cuban missile crisis that that’s exactly correct. We came, uh, with a hair breath away off nuclear war with the Soviet Union that that’s cracked. Indeed. I, uh, Artie to that effect in Scotland in a court in a chronic Scotland, uh, where three women went out and damaged a tender for the UK Tried in twos that we gave them. Um and, uh, at that I argued that exact point. If you’re interested, you could see that my argument testimony Website Foer Trident Ploughshares Talal the British Way p l o u g h S h A R E s 2000 Oh, and at the end of the day, we got a directed verdict from the judge over acquittal. Oh, on behalf of all three of them, Foer Foer chart four different charges each on various different counts of destruction of property and even made the British press the next day saying our nuclear deterrent is illegal, which which it is. We have to understand that despite all this nonsense about deterrence, that’s a joke in a frog. All our weapons, our strategic nuclear weapons, are designed Foer offensive First Strike, Strategic nuclear attack on Russia or China are now other targets that we allege have nuclear weapons. And indeed, Maginot Doctor Michaux Kochs wrote a book on this. The physicists you see him on TV called for a strike and eagles through it all there the number of times we threatened or prepared for first strike of nuclear weapons. So these weapons, they’re not there to deter anything. They are there to be used in a first strike. Indeed, in a plowshares case I worked up on Wisconsin Tom and Ron Howard Hastings Ah, they had damaged the e l F towers that communicate. We’re trying to submarines. And they were both facing charges of sabotage. And we brought in a naval Capt. Retired. He used to command submarines, and he says it’s well known that the E L F. Dryden to system ah, will be the bell ringer for the start of an offensive. First strike strategic nuclear war. Well, with his testimony and my testimony and my arguments, we got out right acquittals for both of us. So again, it goes back to the point when Juries actually here. Ah, the destructive I mean, we’re talking about weapons that far exceeds even the wildest fantasies of Hitler and the Nazis. If you study those, these are natural weapons to the umpteenth time. And when Juries get to hear that, and then the that that this is ongoing criminal activity conspiracy, planning, preparation to commit Nuremberg, crimes against humanity, war crimes, crimes against peace and outright genocide typically no quit. And by the way, the United States government knows that the Department of Justice does that, which is why they fight so hard to keep up my testimony out of there. And even my declarations were even putting aside me testifying your court, which I was standing by to fly out there. Even my declarations by two declarations they did not get to see, even though they’re they’re filed with the court. The second declaration. I submit it after the Trump administration pulled out of the I N F tree and I itemized in that second declaration again, which you could find on the King’s Obaid Plowshares website. Now the dangers that are facing us that these high enough weapons now will be deployed by the United States, first against Russia and also against China and reduce warning time. Uh, from the time they’re set off to the time they Landay neither Moscow, St Petersburg or elsewhere two, maybe 3 to 5 minutes. So I had the same will be true with respect to China. So clearly they are there as part of an offense and first strike nuclear weapons system against Russia against China. There’s no question about it if you study the literature, and Dan would agree with me that that was the bidding. You know, if we had abandoned me, it would have been the 12 punch there. Well, it’s always been clear, you know, for the project Offputting the so called defensive missiles in Eastern Europe that that was part of an offensive package, it was just meant to be able to shoot down their retaliatory strike to make it easier to launch a first strike in the first place. In fact, when the Russians are now pointing out that in fact, we are putting ah, Tomahawk cruise missiles in there in those launchers are nuclear capable and that therefore they have an offensive capability and not just are there for defense. And the Russians said, you know, if you do that, we will have to respond in kind. So I forget if it was at a G eight conference or something like that when George W. Bush said that, you know, it was like an aside, I think, some international conference with a bunch of European leaders there and that kind of thing. And he says, Well, you know, this is all just you know, these missiles air going into Poland to protect from Iran and the whole room just busted out laughing already knows Iran doesn’t have any missiles that can hit Poland and doesn’t have any nukes and doesn’t have a beef with Poland of all places. And what he talking about, This is about Rush. In fact, I think Putin was there, too, and they all just kind of had a laugh that Oh, that’s what you’re supposed to say, huh? Even though we all know on the face of it that this is Foer part of our policy of containing Russia in the new Cold War at war. Worse as you’re saying, right, you have to be an idiot to believe something like that and my way. Then you see this subtle judge, the uh, Bushies Junior pointy. She knew full well, Shia goof Orwell that if I was able to present these arguments to the jury and, uh, Zidane Ellsberg was able to send his arguments, the jury, there’s a good chance we have gotten an outright acquittal for all of them. And that would have been a terrible blow against trying to. So, of course, she just not only struck me, she struck dead. Uh, my declarations never got to the jury. I don’t dance. After David didn’t and the Kings Bay plowshares were muscle. You could read the transcript and threatened with the judge. Gotcha. This they began talking about these things, She’d hold them in contempt. Well, now, let me ask you this. What was Can you give us a bit of a summary of the religious freedom argument there? Because that was something that Lizza, Macao Alistair had mentioned that you were more specific. You said they were trying to invoke the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Yeah, there. This was the first time ever the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Ah was adopted by Congress, uh, to make sure that the United States government does not put undue burdens on people Foer, uh, motivated by religious reasons. Uh, and all they wanted to do here was to argue these points, uh, to the jury. That’s what they wanted to argue. And the judge just stripped over that argument to so they were able to get up there and say, Well, I was motivated for religious reasons, but they could not tie into this specific statute that, ah, give special protections. Four people who are motivated by religious reasons. So that was stripped of them with the experts on that they they were going to bring in a Catholic bishop, since they are all Catholic workers. And, ah, a professor of theology, I believe, from Fordham University, which is Catholic. I wasn’t really involved in that. It was it was a novel defense bill quickly and said he publicly he is He’s going to try to appeal that Hirsi cision so well, we’ll have to see what happens. Yeah. All right. Well, uh, how long until the sentencing is announced there? I believe the sentencing will be in January. They each are facing 20 years. I suspect the Department of Justice, pursuant to previous practice will go for the max 20 years from all that. And that includes Lizza Macao, Alistair. He was about to turn 80. So effectively, that will be a life sentence for her. They tried to do this to her husband, Phil Baroud Keeghan in his last plowshares action. Do you plowshares out depleted Iranian Paulish airs and the prosecutor there publicly brag that this is gonna be filled. Baroud Guns last Ryan’s gonna put Phil away for the rest of his life. Um, and we started out facing 40 years. Uh, and at the end of a kangaroo court proceeding, his ah ah, trial attorney was my friend Ramzy Clark. Uh, Phil and the others got two years. Um And then he got out and was sent back on another problem. Paulish Aires Action Foer Probation revocation, I think another six months. So he did get out. And then soon thereafter, he you know he was diagnosed with terminal cancer and died, But at least fill Berrigan died at home surrounded by his wife lives and their children and their grandchildren and and your friends and that not rotting away in some federal hello for crimes against the American Empire. And that is what they’re trying to do once, Macao Alistair that, you know, leases Bin, uh, pain in their neck for the last 50 years since the Americans and Macao, Alistair launched their campaign against the Vietnam War. And they want to put Lizza way for the rest of her life and that, and I don’t mean to diminish the significance of any of the others. But But let’s has been at this for over 50 years. Hey, guys. Scott here, I got some books you should read. The War State by Mike Swanson A great history of Early Cold War No Dev No ops, no I t by Hussein Biotic Johnny How to run your computer business like a good libertarian. Oh, yeah, And don’t forget fool’s errand. Time to end the war in Afghanistan by me Hey, y’all, Here’s the thing. Donate $100 to the Scott Horton show and you can get a Q R Code Commodity disc as my gift to you. It’s a one ounce silver disc with a Q R code on the back. You take a picture of with your phone and it gives you the instant spot price and lets you know what that silver that ounce of silver is worth on the market in Federal Reserve notes in real time. It’s the future of currency in the past to commodity discs dot com, or just go to scott horton dot or ge slash Donate. Hey, guys, you know you probably need a new website a lot of people do. What you need to do then is go to expand designs dot com the great Harley Abbott and his team over at expand designs dot com. They’ll hook you up with a great new website for 2019 and in fact, what you really should do his type in expand designs dot com slash scott, and you’ll save $500. And listen, I have to say, I told her this to that. I’ve always known that there is this nun or a group of nuns and priests that do these actions and break into these nuclear weapons facilities in order to protest and bring attention to them. And that’s not exactly the same thing. And I guess there Catholic workers, you know, party background, whatever. It’s not exactly the same thing is just a bunch of I don’t know, eight Ashbury hippies or something like that. It’s a priest and his wife, okay? And then But I and I never knew a lot about it, right? But I’m just time out, like in my childhood. All my life growing up, I knew that these people existed and that they did this and that they went to prison to make this point and that, you know, along the lines. In fact, this was on the anniversary of Martin Luther King’s assassination that they did this action and that it was part of that tradition. I know you. You talked about the discrepancy there. Um, arguably segregation itself was an illegal regime to, uh but anyways, um, I think this stuff is really important is one of the things that got me interested in the subject as a young kid. And I know I’m not alone in that, so I don’t know how much that’s worth, but it’s not nothing, I guess. You know, for all the sacrifice that they put into this, it’s important to understand they’re there. Their slogan is they shall beat their swords and the ploughshares and their spirits into grooming Kochs. And that comes from the Jewish profits. Micah and is there. And so, uh, these, uh, plowshares, uh, many number Catholic but not all of them are motivated by the example of the Jewish profits. If you go back and read your bible and rule they played, and if challenging the king at that time, the emperor’s the Jewish emperors at that time. And, uh, you know, many of these profits were killed or imprisoned. And if you are interested following that up, there are two books day American late and very Ghouta. A Jesuit wrote, Uh, well, he wrote a series of books commentaries on the Jewish province, And then, ah, Rabbi Abraham Heschel, uh, now deceased. But hey opposed the Vietnam War and supported civil rights for African Americans and marched with Dr King and Selma. You know, my my kind of rabbi, and he wrote a book on the Jewish profits to too. If you really want to understand what motivates CIS people, these people, This was Rebekah Hesh als doctoral dissertation. He wrote to get his doctor in theology so you can get these books and they the PowerShares, try to fit what they are doing into this biblical tradition of prophecy. Yeah, well, um, you know it’s funny, cause all these political figures, I’ll pretend to be very religious. Toobin. When it comes down to it, the state ranks far higher than God or his son on their list. No question. Well, that’s right. And Azzam Lizza, Macao, Alistair pointed out. This is a religion of nuclear Hazmi, and it’s an idolatry. Oh, yeah, Cult of power, cult of death, right? So she’s been very eloquent about it for all these years. And, of course, the other Kings, Bay, plowshares and all the other file sharing since, well, they’ve tried to make this point the best they can in these trials. But again, the federal government and federal judges ah, to a great extent have Mosul Baluch and completely shut down their defenses in violation of their rights and due process a lot. Yeah, and I mean, that’s really one of the most outrageous parts of this, right? You know, for a guy who was raised on Matt locked like me, I know that the state’s gonna almost always win. But when the judge and the prosecutors conspired to just strike down every witness that the defense wants to bring, they’re just not even allowed to put on their case at all. That’s the kind of thing that should never happen in America, you know, and especially in a case like this, where the prosecution could afford to simply just be patronizing and insulting as hell, and asked the judge to give them all six months and a nice $10,000 fine and make the point and shame them for jeopardizing our security or some kind of thing and let them go and treat this like a really bad misdemeanor, which is what it really is. And I mean, for them to go to these lengths to prevent even any semblance of a defense. Ah, by these people who are clearly motivated by the highest purpose is Ah, well, it’s sickening. I don’t know. I could ended that a few different ways, but it bothers me. It ain’t right. Well, you’re right, Scott, and that your listeners have to understand they were each facing 20 years. All they wanted were three witnesses. They wanted the bishop, the professor of theology, of the religious defense and then me on the nuclear weapons aspect. Dan could not come because at the end of the day, because of a prior personal commitment. So sometimes in that type of situation, I do double duty. I’ve actually been qualified in court as an expert on U. S. Nuclear targeting doctrines and strategy. So I was fully prepared to do double duty here, and it were all stripped. That was Hey, they handled effect. Ah, the judge of the feds stripped them of all their defensive. So that’s why I said it was Ah, que grew court was a rubber stamp on a railroad. Sure enough, that’s that’s what it turned out to be. Yeah. All right, well, listen, I’ll let you go. Ah, thank you for so much of time here this afternoon on this very important story and all your great efforts. I wish you guys the best on all the appeals and all of this, and I wish I knew something better to say. Just thanks again for taking the time to go through all this so that people can understand, uh, what the clouds shares are all about and that they are acting as they see it as profits in the tradition offthe e of the Jewish Bible. Right? All right, well, thank you again. Everybody that is Francis Boyle, professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law. All right, shall thanks Find me at Libertarian Institute Dot or GE at scott horton dot or ge antiwar dot com and reddit dot com slash scott Horton Show. Oh yeah, and read my book Fool’s Errand Timed and the War in Afghanistan at Fool’s errand dot us.