10/16/13 – Trevor Timm – The Scott Horton Show

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It's the Scott Horton Show.
I'm him.
ScottHorton.org is the website.
3,000 interviews there going back to 2003.
And our first guest on the show today is the great Trevor Timm from the Electronic Frontier Foundation and also from the Press Freedom Foundation or the Freedom of the Press Foundation or whichever it's called.
It doesn't match the URL.
Anyway, welcome back to the show.
Trevor, how are you doing?
Great.
Thanks for having me back.
What did I do with the oh, here it is.
It's the Freedom of the Press Foundation at pressfreedomfoundation.org.
Somebody needs to fix that.
Please.
Yeah, the URL has caused great controversy.
Unfortunately, Freedom of the Press Foundation is too long.
Why don't you just change the name of the foundation to the Press Freedom Foundation?
And there might be some other organization called that.
It's a long, hard battle.
We're still fighting.
We'll see.
You could be the FOTPF.
Yeah, that just rolls off the tongue, doesn't it?
It's perfect.
All right, I'm sorry.
I'm just not even being funny.
I'm trying.
Anyway, Trevor Timm, you do great work.
And the first thing I want to talk about before we get to all the EFF and NSA and this, that and the other acronym is this new open source submission platform that you guys announced yesterday there at pressfreedomfoundation.org.
Tell us all about it.
Yeah, well, so this is an open source submission system, like you said, that would allow sources and whistleblowers to securely and anonymously digitally send documents to journalists a la the Wikileaks system that was pioneered by Wikileaks, you know, over half a decade ago.
You know, since Wikileaks, you know, kind of came under attack from the U.S. government and had to pull their submission system online, there's really been no news organizations that have successfully deployed a similar system.
And so there was a system created by the activist Aaron Schwartz before his tragic death about six months ago, and it was called DeadDrop.
And unfortunately, you know, I mean, the project was really great, but unfortunately, there was no one that was really around to take care of it and make sure that it got updated and to make sure that the time and money and resources were invested into it to make sure it was the most secure thing possible.
So we ended up at Freedom of the Press Foundation taking it over officially yesterday.
We renamed it SecureDrop, and we're actually going to go around to media organizations and help them install it, give them technical assistance, and even provide them updates down the road when we fix bugs or make things easier to use so that, you know, we're basically trying to take all of the pain out of creating these systems for media organizations so they can just go ahead and use them.
Wow.
So, well, first of all, I guess I didn't realize that Wikileaks had had to pull their submission system.
So they've just been, maybe they have documents they haven't released yet, but that's it for them, huh?
Right.
You know, they've been talking a long time about getting another system online.
You know, I think there's a few things that Wikileaks has to worry about that many media organizations don't.
Number one, they have a huge high profile, and they're outside the U.S.
You know, the U.S. government is much more hostile to them, may not consider them a media organization, even though they, of course, are.
So they have a higher threat model than most news organizations.
So I think they've been taking their time trying to carefully craft one.
But, you know, it's a hard thing to do.
So, you know, we're hoping that we can kind of spread this type of technology to media organizations around the country and eventually around the world so that there's not this one pressure point where if the U.S. government doesn't like one submission system, they can just take that one down.
And then all of a sudden, you know, there are no more.
You know, we'd like there to be 100 Wikileaks, not just one.
Yeah, I mean, that's really great, especially, you know, it doesn't go without saying, I guess, that the Freedom of the Press Foundation, one of y'all's board members and co-founders is Glenn Greenwald, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
And so when you say we, that includes him in this decision making, right?
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
You know, Glenn's really excited about this project, too.
And well, as we know, I'm going somewhere with this.
As we know, he's now got this giant new project of his own, and he's not trying to hog this technology for himself.
He wants to see this same Wikileaks type upload your secret document system installed on the website of every newspaper in the world, basically, is what you're saying.
He's trying to push this, too.
You know, as a journalist, he, of course, has, you know, a competition with other journalists and other news organizations to get stories out first.
But above all that, I mean, you know, Glenn's philosophy is a very strong supporter of press freedom for all news organizations.
And he obviously believes that all news organizations should have the type of technology that would allow them to do this.
And, you know, when you think about the Obama administration's war on whistleblowers, where they've prosecuted more than all other administrations combined, the big reason they can do this now is because of the digital trail of emails and phone calls that reporters and sources leave all over the place.
You know, they don't have to get reporters to testify in front of grand juries anymore.
They can just subpoena the emails.
So this is a system that hopefully will fight back against that and will allow sources and journalists to stay a little safer than they have been.
Right.
Man, I think that's just great.
And I'm also imagining, in fact, I'm remote viewing with my magical Jedi powers, people in Washington, D.C., crying their eyes out, and not just there, but in capitals all over the world as their intelligence agencies report the existence of this thing.
What are they going to do with you, Trevor?
Dammit, you're undermining their entire legitimacy with this.
Well, you know, you're going to be an enemy of 192 states, not just this one.
Well, this, you know, I look at this thing as a safety valve.
You know, there are times in this country, even though, you know, we claim to have a democracy that's always transparent, that the transparency avenues break down, whether it's the courts, the Congress, or the executive branch.
You know, the NSA story is the quintessential example of this.
And so when there is this safety valve there that the government knows about, that whistleblowers can safely get documents to, to the press so they can publish them, you know, when there's no other resort, they may think twice about keeping things secret to begin with.
And, you know, if, if nobody ever leaks to this system at various news organizations, but the government then decides to be more transparent because they know it's there, I think even in that case, it's worth it.
Right.
But that's not going to happen.
What's going to happen is this is going to be a huge success because, look, the truth of the matter is there's a lot wrong and there's a lot of people who want to blow the whistle.
But you know what they got?
You do know very well.
Everybody knows they got mortgages, they got wives, they've got kids, they've got risks that they're not willing to take.
But you know what?
You want to make it easy for them.
It's like, why not smuggle some coke if you have an invisibility device or something, right?
You're taking all the risk out of it.
So go right ahead and blow the whistle, man.
Your boss is doing the wrong thing, violating the rights of the American people.
Let them know.
I mean, I absolutely think that, you know, people don't say things because they're fearful of reprisals, even though they know the things that they want to say are in the public's right to know.
And if we can make that just a little bit easier for people to take a little bit of the risks out of it, I mean, we got to remember here, there's still risks.
You know, it's very it's very brave of many whistleblowers to stick their neck out, whether they're doing it anonymously or letting the world know who they are.
But if we can make it just a little bit safer for them, it's well worth it.
And, you know, in the end, it will make our press stronger, but it will also make our country stronger.
Yeah.
Well, you know, I want to go back to something that you mentioned there about all these prosecutions, because I've spoken with Ray McGovern and Colleen Rowley in the last couple of days, and they've both said the same thing about Edward Snowden, which is that he said that Thomas Drake, first of all, was his inspiration standing up and being a whistleblower.
But it was also Thomas Drake was also his inspiration for going ahead and just giving the motherload of documents to Glenn Greenwald and not screwing around with going to the higher ups and going to the Senate and whatever, because he had already seen it.
That doesn't work.
That'll just get you prosecuted trying to do it by the book.
So you might as well just give it all to Glenn.
And so I just thought that, you know, it's fitting as much of a tantrum as they're throwing over this thing up there in D.C., that it's their fault.
If they had just treated Drake with an ounce of decency whatsoever, there probably wouldn't be a Snowden at all.
Yeah, that's the thing.
You know, Thomas Drake tried to do everything by the book.
Like you said, he went to Congress, he went to the inspector generals, he went to his superiors, and they all rejected him.
And even when he went to the journalists, he never actually gave the journalists anything classified and he still got prosecuted.
It's just the quintessential example of a vindictive prosecution against somebody who should be considered an American hero.
And, you know, it's exactly the reason why Edward Snowden and people like him will go to the press first.
And it should, you know, really signal to the government that they have to completely revamp their system, because the idea that these people should be, you know, prosecuted and exiled is just absurd.
And, you know, we should be celebrating their willingness to come forward.
Right.
And, you know, this is something that kind of has been coming up on this show over the years, really, since I started talking about this stuff with Dan Ellsberg years ago, about the whistleblowers, especially in the military.
You look at these guys over there getting their legs blown off fighting for Hamid Karzai or whoever, you know, takes power next there and whatever form of government we created that will last for a week and a half after the last American leaves.
Jeez, it seems like stealing, classify, liberating classified documents that reveal real wrongdoing and doing a few years in prison or maybe even a couple of dozen years in prison is nothing compared to losing your life or losing your limbs.
People are taking huge risks over there.
Well, in the entire national security state, they're taking huge risks.
They might as well be taking those risks to tell the truth to the American people about what's really going on in their name and with their money and at their expense, you know, in terms of creating new enemies for them to have to deal with, too.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, part of the a lot of what whistleblowers have uncovered in the last 10 years have, you know, it's stuff that ends up hurting us overseas in the sense that, you know, the not that it should never be revealed, but that the government should never have been doing it to begin with.
And, you know, it's stuff like the tortured Abu Ghraib, you know, the drone strikes, the CIA secret prisons, all of this stuff that our government should never be doing and has only come to light because of whistleblowers.
And these whistleblowers end up making our country a better place because, you know, hopefully when they reveal this stuff, at least some reform happens, even if it's slow.
And even if it's, you know, like pulling teeth trying to get the government to reform by exposing this stuff, they're actually helping, you know, the soldiers who are defending this country and everyone else by making the government just a little more honest.
And so, you know, we hope that we can at least help a little bit along the way with SecureDrop.
Right.
Again, it's Trevor Tim from the Freedom of the Press Foundation.
Dan Ellsberg and Glenn Greenwald and others are involved in this thing.
And we're talking about this new thing, SecureDrop, which was developed by Aaron Swartz, who, of course, the national government persecuted to death for the non-crime of downloading some journals and sharing them with no one.
And they drove him to suicide with their persecution.
But anyway, everyone, please take note of this.
It's at PressFreedomFoundation.org.
PressFreedomFoundation.org.
You know, anyone in media, make sure they know about this and that they can get involved in this, that they can have their own SecureDrop, that your organization, too, can be its own WikiLeaks in this world.
And man, this really is something else.
And the promise here, the potential here is unlimited, certainly beyond my pathetic imagination, Trevor.
So congratulations on this.
Thank you for doing this.
And I'm sure it's going to change the world.
You know what?
Honestly, let's go ahead and talk about the Greenwald thing here until the break.
We got about three, four minutes.
I want to hear what you think about this new project.
Seems to me, if I can go ahead and hyperbolize and whatever, that whatever exactly happens with this, that it's going to be huge.
It's going to change journalism itself from now on, kind of a thing.
What do you think?
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I'm really excited about what this project could potentially be.
I mean, you know, Glenn Greenwald has obviously been on the forefront of these NSA stories, and he's been one of the loudest and most articulate supporters of civil liberties and digital rights for the past decade.
And, you know, to have the backing of somebody as respected as Piero Midyar, who wants to not only facilitate Glenn Greenwald journalism, but all sorts of other journalists who have an independent voice and speak to First Amendment principles and really do aggressive, hard-hitting reporting, you know, I can't imagine a better situation for, you know, not just the people, but also the, who read the news, but also the media who now will have to compete with this organization and hopefully get a little more aggressive on their reporting so they can keep up with them as well.
Right.
Yeah, that's exactly what a previous caller to the show said was, uh-oh, what are you going to do now, CNN and MSNBC and the rest of you, when these guys are just making you pale by comparison?
It's going to be on.
The competition is going to be fierce now, and they're not going to have a choice but to try to adjust to the new reality, which is a lot of fun for me.
Just the anticipation is, it's like Thanksgiving dinner coming up or something.
I just can't hardly wait at all.
So, good deal.
And, by the way, in case you're just tuning in and, you know, you've been under a rock for a day and a half or whatever, the deal is the guy that's the co-founder of eBay or the founder of eBay has got $8 billion and he's putting up, he told this one reporter anyway, that he's putting up, as much as he was willing to pay for the Washington Post, $250 million into this thing.
So this is like when Ted Turner decided he was going to put his fortune into media, kind of, you know, go from billboards to TV or something.
This is a huge thing.
This is a new world starting now.
And with Glenn Greenwald, a fierce Bill of Rights advocate at the charge of it, I just think it's going to be great.
We're all anticipation over here.
I guess here's a segue.
Greenwald told Time Magazine or they were quoting him telling somebody or something that, oh yeah, the good stuff, we haven't published that yet.
What?
What do you think he's talking about there?
You know, at my most paranoid, I think, well, it's got to be the webcams, right?
They're hijacking everybody's webcam whenever they feel like it.
And because so far, all of my worst paranoid delusions have come true in these Snowden documents, Trevor.
So that's my next one.
Either that or they've got my own shadow spying on me.
Is that it?
Yeah, I'm very much looking forward to this, too.
You know, I don't know anything besides what the public knows about what's in the documents we haven't seen.
But I'm assuming there's a lot more to come because Glenn keeps saying there's a lot more to come.
And every time he says that, he comes out with an explosive new story.
You know, we know he's been working with Jeremy Scahill, the great reporter who's been working for the nation the last few years, has the new movie Dirty Wars out and has really done a lot of innovative work around drone strikes in Yemen and Somalia and all sorts of special forces operations around the globe.
And so, you know, there's, you know, they talked about in one article that had the NSA somehow teaming up with some sort of assassination team, which we can assume is probably drone strikes, given that The Washington Post also reported the NSA has helped locate targets for the CIA and special forces when it comes to drone strikes in Pakistan and Yemen.
So, you know, that's just a pure conjecture.
But we know it's probably going to be explosive, given, you know, those two guys who are both top notch working together.
You think the webcam thing is crazy town, at least for now?
Well, I mean, so I don't think the NSA is hacking into random U.S. citizens' webcams and looking at what they're doing.
But I do know that it's very possible that they certainly would have that ability if they wish, the technical ability, at least.
I don't know about the legal authority.
Of course, they don't have the legal authority to.
But they have, you know, as we've seen with all of these other leaks, that they have an incredible ability to hack into wherever they wish.
And, you know, if you are a target of the NSA, even if you use, you know, some of the most encrypted technologies, they'll somehow find a way into your computer.
And, you know, it would be great if they focused using those powers that they have on, you know, suspected terrorists that they have probable cause to believe committed a crime, you know, like surveillance is supposed to work in this country rather than this, you know, blanket type of surveillance where they scoop up everybody's communications.
But luckily, they don't have enough human beings to even look at all the webcams, even if that was possible.
So, you know, I certainly think it's a technical possibility.
And believe me, I am one of those people who put the sticker over their webcam when they're not using it.
So I wouldn't call that paranoid, but it's, you know, at least they're not doing it on a mass scale.
Well, and now when you put the sticker over it, is it the national government you're most concerned about?
Or is it something someone else, just identity thieves, that kind of thing?
Or do you have a point?
Could very well be identity thieves.
I mean, I think you may have saw a few weeks ago, the Miss America contestant had someone hack into her computer and take webcam pictures.
There's all sorts of stories about people who rent computers from all sorts of, you know, tech stores, you know, like rent to own computers that end up taking pictures of people, you know, forgetting spyware on your computer and having people get a hold of your webcam is certainly something that everybody should be aware that it is possible to happen.
And, you know, putting a sticker over the camera is really easy.
You know, you can just use a post-it note, take it off whenever you need to use the camera.
You know, it definitely doesn't hurt.
Yeah.
Well, and if criminals can do it, the national government sure as hell can do it, right?
Exactly.
You know, they're using the same technique.
So now, of the latest revelations, I'm sorry, we're almost out of time, actually.
But of the latest revelations, which do you think are the most important?
The buddy list and the contact lists?
Or what else has come out lately that blears socks off here?
Well, yeah.
So the story in the Washington Post just a couple days ago by Barton Gelman, who also has some of the Edward Stone documents, is really interesting.
You know, they talked about how the NSA has been scooping up millions and millions of people's IM buddy lists and email contact address books.
So basically, they're trying to collect every email address in the world.
And of course, this includes millions of US email addresses.
So we don't have any idea what they're doing with these email addresses.
But they know it's a very good possibility that they have your email address.
And, you know, are they querying that email address against all their other databases?
Who knows?
But, you know, it's just the next step in their invasion of privacy, again, that we never knew that they were doing and that we may have objected to if they ever tried to tell us about it.
But they're doing it in complete secrecy, obviously.
You know, there was another great story by Laura Poitras and James Risen in the New York Times a couple weeks ago about how they're also trying to create social profiles of everybody's, you know, Facebook connections and, you know, mapping, you know, who your friends are.
I'm sure the buddy lists and addresses that they're getting are connected to this same program.
And so it will certainly be interesting to see the next wave of stories that comes out and hopefully shed some more light on this.
Do you think that the general narrative has gotten through the American people that know really they're compiling pretty much a total information awareness about your entire life and your little sisters, too?
I mean, is that really getting through, do you think?
You know what?
I think there's really been a key change in public opinion about privacy in the last four months because of the Edward Stone disclosures.
I mean, we've seen, like, 20-point swings.
The fact that all of these polling places are now saying, for the first time in the history of polling, that privacy way outranks the fears.
Fears of privacy invasions way outrank the fears of terrorism in this country.
And, you know, we're seeing Congress hopefully are going to be responding in the next few weeks.
You know, there's already over a dozen bills introduced in Congress.
There's about to be a huge bill introduced in Congress that will have the support of a lot of members.
And so, you know, hopefully we can see some real reform coming up the next few weeks.
But then we got to, again, we got to remember, obviously, the national security state is still very strong and they have their own supporters.
And so, you know, we have to stay vigilant and make sure we, you know, speak as loud as possible so that they continue to hear us.
Right.
All right.
Thanks very much, Trevor.
Appreciate it.
Thank you.
All right.
That's the great Trevor Tim from the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
They're the front lines of this thing.
EFF.org and also PressFreedomFoundation.org.
Check out the secure drop there.
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