Sorry, I'm late.
I had to stop by the Whites Museum again and get the fingered at FDR.
We know Al-Qaeda, Zawahiri is supporting the opposition in Syria.
Are we supporting Al-Qaeda in Syria?
It's a proud day for America, and by God, we've kicked Vietnam syndrome once and for all.
Thank you very, very much.
I say it, I say it again, you've been hacked.
You've been took.
You've been hoodwinked.
These witnesses are trying to simply deny things that just about everybody else accepts as fact.
He came, he saw us, he died.
We ain't killing their army, but we killing them.
We be on CNN, like, say our names, been saying, saying three times.
The meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world.
Then there's going to be an invasion.
All right, you guys, welcome to the show.
It's the great Jim Bovard.
He wrote a whole hell of a lot of books, including Public Policy Hooligan, his great memoir.
And now that I'm thinking about it, I think I'm spacing out on your most recent book that came out since then.
What the hell's my problem?
Freedom Frauds, right?
Is that it?
Yeah, something like that.
Yeah, exactly.
Freedom Frauds.
Hard Lessons in American Liberty.
Sorry about that.
You know what the problem is?
It's because I know the names of so many of your other books that that one got buried in there.
Well, it's a day with lots of interviews, I understand.
It is.
It's a lot of interviews today.
But listen, you also wrote Attention Deficit Democracy, which is absolutely brilliant and should have won the Scott Horton Prize for books that I like.
And then there's The Bush Betrayal and Terrorism and Tyranny, which both also are masterpieces.
Feeling Your Pain, Freedom in Chains, Shakedown and Lost Rights from the Bill Clinton years.
And then The Fair Trade Fraud and the Farm Fiasco from Bush Senior Times.
And 10 million articles written for the Future Freedom Foundation and a good friend of mine.
So yeah, hell yeah, man.
What a great bio you got there.
Well, thanks.
That's very kind of you.
Did I mention that Jim was as good as anyone at the very, very top of the list of best writers from any political bent on the Waco massacre back in the 1990s and set a very important standard there.
And wrote a lot of very important articles that still stand the test of time on that issue, by the way.
That's very kind.
Thanks.
Yeah, man.
Well, it's really important for history and stuff.
And you know what I've come to learn?
There's a lot of young people who listen to this show who all this stuff that's like yesterday to us is, you know, with our grayer and grayer beards here, is all ancient history to them that all happened before they were born or when they were so young that they were completely oblivious to it.
And so they really don't know.
So like here you wrote this article called James Comey and the Unending Bush Torture Scandal.
That torture scandal is like, you know, something that happened during LBJ to me when I was born in the mid 70s or something.
You know, people, I don't know.
They don't know.
This is a long time ago.
Even the Nixon years, ancient history, black and white pictures, time unknowable.
And so but yeah, he's still in the news and taking a very important position in not just opposing Trump, but in the whole Trump Russia supposed scandal here, too.
And you've taken care to remind us of who is this St. Comey after all that we're all supposed to revere so much.
Yeah, it's interesting to see how he's how he still has a halo thanks to the media.
He had a story on on Sunday.
The New York Times talked about assuring people that there were lots of honest people in the working for the FBI.
The FBI was going to find the truth in their investigation of Brett Kavanaugh.
I had some fun with that in USA Today yesterday, smacking Comey around and going through the FBI's history, including looking at Waco and Ruby Ridge and a lot of the other scripts have done.
But yeah, James Comey, James Comey was a savior of the Bush era torture regime.
He was there.
He's a top guy.
At the time when a lot of people were saying, well, this is crazier than hell.
Federal government doesn't have a right to torture people, doesn't have a right to waterboard, doesn't have a right to do wall slamming where they take a guy, a suspect and throw him against the wall 30 times, but not 32, because 32 would be too many.
Oh, I see.
I mean, that's actually the type of guidelines they have as far as the amount of physical abuse with which which they could impose on people who they suspected might be able to tell them something.
And it was under a fierce controversy in 2004 when the John Yoo memos came out, when the photos from Abu Ghraib came out, when the courageous report by Toguba, General Toguba came out, thanks to Seymour Hersh.
And there was a huge pushback to say, well, you know, people were horrified at this.
James Comey was at the very top of just barmen, and he was a huge part of the effort to save the torture regime, which he did with all kinds of twists and turns legally.
Lots of folks are aware of John Yoo and his utterly, utterly bizarre interpretations, making the Bill of Rights banish.
But James Comey was doing backup for John Yoo.
And yet he's, you know, because he made some comments criticizing torture.
It's like he's, you know, a champion of human rights.
It's like it almost makes me lose faith in the media.
Oh, man, I would hate for that to happen.
See them, you know, falsely portraying something.
Well, and now – so I think the way you put it in here is that, you know, he really denounced these sloppy memos, and then he helped to replace them with some that were written with a little bit tighter legal reasoning so that they could continue the exact same tortures.
The same enhanced interrogation tactics, waterboarding among others, which, you know, Comey insisted wasn't torture.
The thing that spurred this article was I was reading an excerpt from Comey's new memoir, Higher Loyalty.
And there was a phrase in there where he was talking about a Comey meeting with President George W. Bush 2004, and he was saying how he said, here I stand.
I can do no other as far as pushing to whitewash some of the stuff that the Bush era was doing.
And it's like, OK, so here we have James Comey playing Martin Luther because here I stand, I can do no other is a famous line attributed to Martin Luther and his showdown with Emperor Charles as far as – at the start of the Reformation.
And it's, you know, it's not like the media putting the halo over Comey came out of nowhere.
He was doing it himself first.
Yeah, exactly.
They're like, well, apparently this guy wears a halo.
He's sure that he does.
Yeah, and it's the same treatment which he's getting now.
FBI sources confirm that he is in fact an angel.
That's it.
You know, there are 7,000 secret memos which prove it.
So maybe one day we'll be able to see those secret memos too.
Well, we know that the FBI knew all about and or was in on the torture regime from the very beginning, right, where, for example, the CIA sort of – I don't want to characterize it in a way that favors anyone unnecessarily, Jim, but I think something along the lines of the FBI, Ali Soufan and those guys were interrogating Abu Zubaydah in his torture dungeon in Thailand and then at the CIA black site there.
And then the CIA guys just pushed him away and wouldn't let them do any more questioning and instead started torturing the guy.
And that – wasn't it the case that Ali Soufan was in reporting all that back to headquarters?
What do we do and this and that?
And they pulled him out of there, let the CIA do it.
They certainly didn't arrest all these guys for breaking the law and they certainly didn't blow the whistle, which didn't happen, of course, until, as you say, the Toguba report investigations – Toguba investigations started leaking out and Abu Ghraib was exposed in the spring of 2004, which would have been, you know, what, two and a half years later?
Well, it's an interesting thing as far as the role of the FBI because there were FBI agents who were detailed down to Guantanamo and I think also to some of the prisons in Iraq.
And some of those FBI agents sent back messages saying, hey, things are crazy here.
I mean the detainees are being tortured.
They would – they had some details in there that they were appalled by justifiably.
So there were individual FBI agents who spoke up and said – pointed out the U.S. government was violating the law, violating the anti-torture convention, the U.N. treaty, and doing all kinds of other dumb stuff to the detainees but never made it up to the top of Bob Mueller basically who never took a stand on this.
In spite of some of the individual FBI agents basically putting themselves and their careers on the line to blow the whistle.
Well, is it fair to assume or not that Mueller and Comey and everyone at the top of the FBI and the top of the Justice Department would have been read into that and would have known about those memos?
Everybody at the top – I don't know about everybody, but there were a boatload of folks who knew about this crap.
John Ashcroft certainly did.
And if memory serves, there was – at one point in the – early in the Bush administration after 9-11, they would have these meetings over at the White House, and they would talk about which enhanced interrogation methods to use and which detainees.
And I think that Ashcroft was quoted from that saying, history will not look kindly on this.
And he was correct.
And if John Ashcroft had taken a stand, a principled stand against this, then Ashcroft would have become a hero.
At that point, Comey was the deputy attorney general though, right?
Yeah, he was – I think he became deputy – was it late 2003?
Yes, late 2003.
Oh, okay.
Do you know what?
Was he before that, like say from fall 2001 through that time?
I think he was a – I'm pretty sure he handled the Martha Stewart case in which he was arm-twisted into pleading guilty for lying to the FBI.
That's some public service right there, yeah.
There you go.
I mean it's very important to people to understand the government has to have a monopoly on lies to protect us.
I like how, as you say here, as soon as he left the Justice Department, he went straight to Lockheed to sit on the board of directors and collect a big welfare check.
After all that money comes out of our treasury, all the Lockheed money does.
And it's interesting people talk about him being savior saint and all that.
If Comey had blown the whistle on the torture abuses, which he knew about, okay, he might have been hired as a law professor at Fargo State University or maybe someplace better.
But he would not have been working as a top guy for Lockheed Martin in Washington.
So there's several hundred thousand dollars a year difference there, maybe a whole lot more.
Well, I don't know if this really stands or matters anymore in the current climate of the Russiagate or not.
For example, if the liberals are invoking this or what have you.
But for a time there was this great mythology about him standing up to David Addington and all the worst Cheneyites over the NSA spying program.
And a big showdown at John Ashcroft's hospital bed where Alberto Gonzalez and he were racing there to get Ashcroft on their side first and all these things.
And what a heroic stance he took at that point.
Jim, can you tell us about that?
Oh, yeah.
I mean, this is a huge part of the Comey mythology.
And I say mythology.
Yeah, there was one specific surveillance program which he was opposed.
But he was fine with a much broader and much more illegal and abusive surveillance programs that The New York Times exposed in December 2005.
And then a lot of other things came out after that.
And if my memory is correct, the Bush White House responded to The New York Times' expose of the NSA wiretapping hundreds of Americans without a warrant at any given time and other huge roundups of our information, illegal roundups.
The Bush White House basically asserted that the president had authority in wartime to do this.
And once again, I mean, was there a pushback from Comey?
Did Comey make a stand?
He was out of the Justice Department at that point.
But these are the type of – it was almost exactly the same type of allegation that Nixon made in the early 1970s.
And the Supreme Court shot that to pieces.
But no, I mean – but to see how the media partnered with James Comey to push the story of the hospital visit to John Ashcroft and not only that, but the whole idea of John Ashcroft being the hero as well.
It's like there's some rude analogies which I can make, but I know you've got a lot of family listeners, so I'll behave myself.
All right, you guys.
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It's true, the little kids, they love the show because of all the discussion of cluster bombings and of nuclear treaties and stuff.
It's really for them.
Hey, well, yeah, and you know what's fun about all this is how the Democrats' foregone conclusion of a decision to look forward and not backward has done just what you and all the other critics said it would do way back when Obama announced that in 2008 and 2009 as he was coming into power.
Which is, let all these guys off the hook.
So now it's, I guess it was a little bit of a scandal, but not much of one.
Certainly not enough of a scandal to stop an actual torturer, Gina Haspel, from being confirmed as the new, not too new now, but I guess a few months ago, the current director of the Central Intelligence Agency.
I'm like, yeah, she did a great job.
And yeah, it's true that she tortured some folks, but as Obama put it, but hey, what are you going to do, right?
She did it out of patriotism or something.
Well, and she's a female.
Oh, yeah.
So therefore what?
She doesn't take responsibility.
It was some big brute who actually did the laying of hands on the victims.
I see.
Well, yeah, and it's a very good point, which you made about the President Obama being absolutely complicit in covering up the crimes that preceded him, as well as the crimes that he committed, of course, with the drone policy and assassination of the chief.
Well, the tortures at Bagram, too.
I mean, right?
He kept that going.
Yeah, it was horrendous.
And if memory serves, he stopped by there at some point in his first administration and gave a speech, maybe right at Bagram Air Base, talking about freedom and all that.
And I'm thinking, like, I hope his speech was not interrupted by the screams of taxi drivers being killed.
Right.
What was the name of that movie that had the taxi driver?
Taxi to the Dark Side.
Yeah, Dillawar, the cab driver.
Yeah.
They beat to death.
Yeah.
Great movie.
Oh, and something I should have mentioned earlier.
If folks want the best insights on Afghanistan, how it's been a piece of crap forever, read Scott's book.
Scott is very, very thorough.
This is something that Scott knows like the back of his hand.
Scott's a whole lot fresher and more penetrating on this than I am.
Well, thanks.
You didn't have to say all that.
But, yeah, actually, I got the EPUB version done.
So it's on Apple Books and it will be on Google Books and Barnes & Noble and all those other things besides Kindle now if you want the electronic version of the book, y'all.
Thanks, Jim.
I owe you a dollar and a half.
Well, you know, I'll just put it in your tab.
Yeah, cool, man.
Thank you.
Yeah, so now when it comes to the current Russiagate thing, well, I don't know.
I guess I want to ask as general a question as possible about it.
Do you have a preferred narrative or you're just waiting to see or you think that there was, you know, whatever degree of truth to the different narratives going on here?
What do you say?
I need a little more specific question because, I mean, it's a huge black cloud out there.
My impression is that a lot of the – is that the, you know, for two years, longer than that, the FBI and a lot of Democrats have kind of seen this as their great hope to topple Trump.
I don't think it's going to work out that way.
I don't think that they've found that much.
I think if they had found smoking guns that we would have heard about them.
I would not be surprised if there were some kind of stupid or appalling contacts by some of the Trump people and some of the Russians.
But to simply see how the Justice Department has handled that 29-year-old red-haired woman who was noodling up the NRA, I mean, it was shameful how they put her out there and said that she was sending messages offering to trade sex for this or that.
And then a few months later, the DOJ says, well, no, actually, that's not what her email said, but she's still a bad person.
I mean there's a lot of rascals around politics.
I mean it's a magnet for rascals and much worse.
And there were lots of people who had been questioned, and some of them had been charged in the Russiagate stuff who were like Paul Manafort.
Holy shit.
Where did he come from?
Yeah, he's a great person to put in charge of a campaign.
Someone had holes in their head to do that with his record.
And so I would not be surprised if there are some other indictments.
But I think that the baseline here to understand is how the media has in general been hysterical a lot lately.
If you think back to the first day of the confirmation hearings for Brett Kavanaugh after he was nominated to Supreme Court, there was a female lady sitting behind him who was making some hand gestures.
And there was a – I think she was a top lawyer or something like that.
One of his – she had some connection to him, Zainab, somebody around.
But there was absolute hysteria on Twitter because some prominent liberals were saying that she was using a secret white power hand sign gesture.
And it was just like – it was a rage.
It was like watching a tsunami crash across Twitter with that story.
And then a day or two later it was like, oh, no, sorry, nothing there, never mind.
And that's a standard the media has been using for so many different things.
I mean it's the same with this woman, Julia Swetnick, who was claiming that she had seen Kavanaugh drugging and gang-raping teenage girls.
And a couple of days ago she changed her story.
She said, well, I saw him close to the punch bowl.
This is like, oh, that's a hell of a correction.
If I did that in a story, some editor would put his boots so far I would need an emergency to extract it.
So it's just – there's so much sloppiness.
And there are lots of reasons to be very wary of Trump.
He's said and done a lot of things that mortified me.
So – but if the alternative is to be putting Hillary Clinton on a pedestal or Senator Kamala Harris or Feinstein, it's like there's just a bunch of damn rascals out there.
Yeah, well, I always like to quote Jim Bovard.
He was talking about the Waco hearings, but it applies on everything where he says, yeah, it's like the Republicans and the Democrats bickering.
It's like watching drunks fight in a bar.
They swing and they miss.
So even if one side has a good point to make, they could never do a good job of it.
It always ends up just in pieces all over the floor.
Good for nothing.
I know.
Yeah, that's you.
So that's what you say, and you're always right about that.
So here's this guy, Kavanaugh, who's actually guilty of Guantanamo war crimes and guilty of 10 million, however many violations of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978.
That makes it a felony to use the Stellar Wind-type program, anything like that, against the American people the way they did, as they all are confessed to having done at the time, then.
And so everybody's talking about, well, did he or did he not lie when he talked about how many beers he liked to have at any particular time and all of this kind of nonsense, which is typical but frustrating because I think being involved and saying that, oh, yeah, Guantanamo is something that we're all signing off on because this makes perfect legal sense to do and is morally right and justified and whatever ought to be extremely disqualifying.
We were talking about James Comey supposedly some kind of hero for standing up to the very worst cutting-edge excesses of the Stellar Wind program, and that's supposedly what's good about him, right?
Well, this guy was involved in the legal reasoning that he was shutting down.
So doesn't that make this guy a villain?
And instead we're talking about, yeah, when this guy was some frat boy, spoiled brat, he drank a lot.
So therefore, I guess he could have been a date rapist or I don't know.
Well, yeah, there was a point, which I mentioned in the USA Today piece yesterday that the Trump administration wrongfully withheld a boatload of records of his from the Bush White House, which the Democrats tried to get, which they should have had access to, which Americans should have had access to, to get a better handle on what exactly he did in the Bush White House.
Because I share your sentiment on that.
Cliffside, the level of rage on this has almost nothing to do with the horrendous policies he was associated with in the Bush White House.
Instead, it's the fact that he's a male or the fact he's a white male or the fact that there's some wild-eyed woman who's out there saying he was drugging and gang-raping teenagers until she's in front of a camera, and then she says he's behind a punch bowl.
I mean, it's so nasty at so many different levels.
It kind of makes you wonder how much worse it will get.
But then if people look back 90 days ago, people probably think, well, things are nasty in America, but at least it can't get much worse.
Yeah, well, it does just keep getting worse.
And of course, the problem is all this confirmation bias and everybody starting with their conclusions and whatever.
This guy's a right-winger, and he has a right-wing point of view on abortion and whatever other issues, torture, stuff like that.
So he's a bad guy.
Anything to stop him and any part of a consensus against him that can be used, fine.
And honesty and facts to the curb in place for the narrative.
And then meanwhile, you have all the moral majority types are saying, I don't give a damn who he raped or morons.
I refuse to entertain the possibility that this guy could ever felt up anybody because I like him and I want Trump to win this one.
And so screw you, even though if the shoe was on the other foot, they would be completely out of their mind.
Look at Chappaquiddick still to this day.
They just made a brand new movie about it.
You know what I mean?
Well, I mean, part of what's interesting about Chappaquiddick is that in spite of the horrendous behavior there, that did not stop Ted Kennedy from becoming a saint.
To take a couple of steps back, it was unfortunate that Trump chose a nominee who had been very controversial, who had difficulty getting confirmed to the appellate court 11 years ago.
Someone like Senator Mike Lee, who I think was willing to be nominated, would have been far better.
And there's someone who's okay.
He's not as strong as Rand Paul is on some issues, but he's shown a lot of courage, a lot of principle on some very hot issues, which every other GOP person except for Rand Paul took a dive on.
Yeah.
Well, and you know what?
Rand took a lot of dives, too.
He's not even Rand, but some of the time he is.
Well, I mean, I think he's doing some of the best work in the Senate.
There are things he says, which I share your – shake my head ruefully as a euphemism.
But I hope he has more influence on Trump as far as foreign policy because Rand has made some of the best comments on Syria.
Rand is not chomping at the bit for war with Russia.
I don't know if he said anything about the idiocy of putting Macedonia in NATO, but maybe he's spoken on that.
Right.
No, he has.
Absolutely, yeah.
Yeah.
So, I mean, I'm not – anyhow.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, that's the thing, right?
We're just trying to – or I am just kind of trying to read his mind and figure out how do we get him to understand that the better he is, the more we like it.
So he doesn't have to keep doing the wrong thing all the time, that overall it's mass support that's going to keep him in office anyway.
And if he wants the American people to give him even more power, like run for president again someday, he's going to have to get them on his side, which is going to mean that he has to do some leading of them between now and then in terms of setting the priorities.
Like, yeah, no, really, let's stop bombing Yemen now because it really matters, which is something that he brings up from time to time.
But then he never goes to war over, which he should, which would be good for him and much more importantly good for the people of Yemen.
Yeah, if memory serves, you and he had a couple of classic interviews early in his career.
It was just that one.
Yeah.
OK, well, it might be fun to send that post that online, have somebody hype it on Twitter.
I mean, because in memory serves, it was quite contentious and it was a good brawl.
Yeah, I'm just too lazy to do it.
I need a good ghost writer or something because I want to do like open letters to this guy.
Hey, you know, remember that time that you did the right thing a few times?
That was good.
And then you see, when you did this bad thing, it didn't work out for you anyway, did it?
Right.
And just, you know, have a few of those and try to be nice and get through to him a little bit because so much potential there.
He's the son of Ron Paul, for God's sake.
Well, it could be he could be a hundred times better than he is now.
You know, it could be like, you know, Bruce Wayne putting on his Batman costume and actually starting to kick some ass where, you know, like to make it look where right now he hadn't even gotten started yet.
You know, if you think about the amount of potential there.
OK, but I think he has said a lot of good things.
He's written some very good articles.
He's taken some stand.
I don't know what he said behind closed doors to Trump or other people.
I appreciate that, you know, that he's better than anybody else in the Senate on foreign policy, even though I share a lot of your criticisms.
You know, he's he's you know, he's a hell of a lot better than almost, well, the vast majority of other folks up there.
Right.
Yeah, it's certainly true.
Right.
I hold them to a very high standard, not just, you know, how good is he for a senator, but how good is he for compared to what I know he knows and what I see as his potential power and authority?
You know what?
After all, a House member, if he goes out to the steps and starts talking, he doesn't necessarily get a press conference.
But a senator does.
Anytime a senator wants to walk out there and start talking, he gets a little at least, you know, impromptu press conference right there.
That's a hell of a bully pulpit that he could use every day to such effect.
You know, well, if he's doing every day or not every day, you know, yeah, but part of the trouble is that most of the journalists don't understand the issues he's talking about.
And many of them totally disagree because they are basically signed on to the status quo.
Right.
Well, that's for sure.
Yeah.
You know, in fact, one of his high points, since I've trashed him all this time, I'll say something good about it.
One of the best things lately was a year, year and a half ago.
I don't know.
It could have been two years ago about the Yemen war.
And he was saying to Neil Cavuto, he goes, look here, Neil.
And they have enough of a rapport that he can really talk to the guy, not just to an anchor, but to Neil.
Look, Neil, seriously, if our side prevails here and we succeed in driving the Houthis out of the capital city of Sanaa, we could put Al Qaeda in power there.
They could be the ones that take over the capital city.
That's who's at least a major faction on the other side of this war.
And do we really know what we're doing, doing what the Saudis want here?
And you could tell that Cavuto learned a thing from Rand in that moment.
Wow.
Really?
OK.
I guess that makes sense.
Right.
Who's on whose side here?
But you're saying that that's within the realm of possibility.
That doesn't sound very good.
You know, and so that's the kind of thing where it's simple enough, especially the way he put it.
He really could have done that over and over and over again, just like he did with Neil Cavuto.
He could really hammer that home.
It does work.
You know, when he's at his best, you know, he really can get some work done there.
And I know because you're right.
A lot of these all these reporters, almost all of them are a bunch of know-nothing know-it-alls who they already think they know the answer.
They can't learn something from somebody like him.
They could only get frustrated by him contradicting them and not understand.
I don't know how it is, but there are some in there that and I've seen him have that effect before when he really tries.
So, you know, he's he's someone who has opened up some minds and hopefully he can open up a whole lot more.
Yeah, that's all I wanted was a young Ron Paul in the Senate.
You know, that's all we all wanted.
Rand.
OK, well, he's a work in progress.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, listen, I don't know.
I was trying to think of a good segue there.
Great progress on your work, Jim.
Well, what the hell is there than nothing?
Yeah, might as well.
It's a long day for you.
So, yeah, man, what do I know?
I haven't had but one Dr. Pepper so far.
I can't even find a break to go get another.
Wow.
I used to drink Dr. Pepper all the time.
I loved it.
Yeah.
Well, get back to that.
James Comey and the unending Bush torture scandal, which is not over yet by James Bovard.
FFF.org, the Future of Freedom Foundation, you know, the great Jacob Hornberger over there and the great James Bovard.
Thanks again, Jim.
Hey, Scott.
Thanks so much.
Good luck.
Appreciate it.
And oh, yeah.
Did I say Jim Bovard dot com?
And he reposts all of his this and that there, too.
Oh, and did I mention he's something or other editorial or something at USA Today where he regularly writes articles?
He did mention one there, right?
He writes at USA Today all the time, which is great.
And read Public Policy Hooligan.
It's also a lot of fun.
All right, y'all.
Thanks.
Find me at Libertarian Institute dot org at Scott Horton dot org.
Antiwar dot com and Reddit dot com slash Scott Horton show.
Oh, yeah.
And read my book, Fool's Errand, Timed and the War in Afghanistan at Fool's Errand dot US.
