Sorry, I'm late.
I had to stop by the Wax Museum again and give the finger to FDR.
We know Al-Qaeda, Zawahiri, is supporting the opposition in Syria.
Are we supporting Al-Qaeda in Syria?
It's a proud day for America.
And by God, we've kicked Vietnam syndrome once and for all.
Thank you very, very much.
I say it, I say it again.
You've been hacked.
You've been took.
You've been hoodwinked.
These witnesses are trying to simply deny things that just about everybody else accepts as fact.
He came, he saw us, he died.
We ain't killing they army, but we killing them.
We be on CNN like Say Our Name been saying, say it three times.
The meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world.
Then there's going to be an invasion.
All right, you guys, introducing the great Tim Shorrock, writer for The Nation and expert on Korea issues.
And well, you know what?
I'm late.
And so we're going to have a very limited amount of time for this interview.
But the good news is, it's good news.
Moon and Kim stage an exuberant summit in Pyongyang.
Welcome back to the show, Tim.
How are you, my friend?
I'm good.
Thank you.
Tell me, what's the lowdown, man?
It's all great stuff, I know.
Well, yeah, Moon and Kim met again a couple of weeks ago.
And the most important thing that came out of that was this military agreement they made to reduce tensions in all areas.
And they've actually started removing mines, landmines along the DMZ, which is a pretty major step.
They've also taken other steps to defuse the situation.
And, you know, they're moving forward on different economic plans, too.
For example, they've opened a liaison office just north of the border, which is going to be actually kind of a de facto embassy for the two countries, with the split countries.
And, you know, they're really moving forward.
And the problem, I think, right now is the U.S. and the Trump administration, which is not very excited about the idea of calling for an end to the Korean War for various reasons, and is resisting that call by both North and South Korea to make a declaration of ending the war.
And that's the biggest road, that's the biggest impediment in terms of the negotiations between the U.S. and North Korea.
And now, is the American position that they want to hold that to last as the big reward for compliance, or they really don't want that at all, do you think?
It's, well, it's more that they, you know, they want, they think that's premature to say the end, the war should be over.
They want North Korea to really make moves toward denuclearizing before that's done.
You know, but for the Koreas, I mean, especially, you know, for North Korea, ending the war is a huge step towards what they would consider ending the hostile policy of the United States.
So they really want to, you know, do that.
And so that's a big impediment, I think.
But, you know, South Korea wants an end to the war, too.
And they think that would be a way to convince the North, you know, to move along on the peace process and the denuclearization process.
That certainly makes sense, right?
That, hey, if we're friends, then who needs nukes anyway, cousin, right?
Right.
Exactly.
I mean, ending the war, you know, takes away the reason to have nuclear weapons in the first place.
If you're not at war, you don't need to be protecting yourself from, you know, possible attack from the United States.
So I think that declaration would go a long way.
And, you know, of course, North and South Korea have been proposing kind of, you know, step by step negotiations where, you know, the U.S. does one thing and then the North side does something.
And I think, in a way, the Trump administration has accepted that form of, you know, moving toward peace, because they do seem to be, you know, moving ahead with the talks.
You know, after North Korea said, you know, it would close certain of its facilities, you know, it already blew up a testing site and they're shutting down a missile engine site.
And they said at their summit in September that they would close down the Yongbyon facility, which is where they make their plutonium and also where they also enrich uranium, that they would close that site and permanently disable it if the U.S. took corresponding steps, which is widely interpreted as, you know, moving to an end, you know, embracing an end of the war.
So, you know, I think if the U.S. would come forward with that, there could be some real movement.
You can also follow me on YouTube and sign up for Patreon.
If you do, anybody who signs up for a dollar per interview gets two free books from Listen and Think Audio.
And also, you'll get keys to the new Reddit page, reddit.com slash Scott Horton Show.
And then if you go to scotthorton.org slash donate, 20 bucks will get you the audiobook of Fool's Errand, War in Afghanistan, 50 bucks will get you a signed copy of the paperback there.
And a $100 donation will get you either a QR code, commodity disc or a lifetime subscription to Listen and Think Libertarian audiobooks.
That's all at scotthorton.org slash donate.
And also, anybody donating $5 or more per month there, if you already are or if you sign up now, you'll get keys to that new Reddit group as well.
Already got about 50 people in there and it's turning out pretty good.
Again, that's reddit.com slash scotthorton show.
If you're already donating or you're a new donor, just email me scott at scotthorton.org and I'll get you the keys there.
And hey, do me a favor, give me a good review on iTunes or Stitcher or if you liked the book, on amazon.com and the audiobook is also on iTunes and I sure would appreciate that.
And listen, if you want to submit articles to the Libertarian Institute, please do and they don't have to be about foreign policy.
My email address is scott at scotthorton.org.
Alright, so I want to get back to some of the details about the progress because it really is great progress and I think, you know, in the detail, you really get the depth of it there from the recent conference between Moon and Kim.
But to skip ahead though, what about Pompeo's trip over the weekend?
Was he there to really, you know, stick solidly behind this policy you're describing here where the Americans are determined to put the cart before the horse?
Well, he apparently, you know, he says he had a good meeting and he met with, you know, he met with Kim Jong-un.
So that was a good sign because the last time he didn't, the last time he was in Pyongyang, the North Korean side was, you know, very upset about their demands, you know, for immediate denuclearization without corresponding steps by the U.S.
So while he didn't apparently embrace the idea of, you know, making a formal end of the war, apparently they feel enough steps have been made in sort of building a viable relationship between the U.S. and North Korea that there's the possibility of another summit with Trump and Kim is, you know, is up there.
So I think they have made some progress.
Although, you know, it was interesting today, the South Korean foreign minister, you know, said that, you know, she had met with Pompeo after he was in Pyongyang.
And apparently Pompeo had said to the South Koreans that the U.S. is uncomfortable with some of these steps that the two sides are taking on the military front to defuse tensions, like removing the mines.
So, you know, the U.S. is really kind of very nervous about North and South Korea proceeding on their, you know, on their inter-Korea relations.
Yeah.
You know, that's what I don't want to hear, is that surrender is too good of an answer for us to accept here.
I mean, especially when, as we've talked about before, Pompeo, when he was the director of the CIA, went over there, not Rex Tillerson, it was Pompeo that went over there and laid the groundwork for this.
And then I guess this was supposition.
Maybe it's reported here or there, but it had to have been the case that in his briefing to Trump, that he told Trump, we can do this and it will work.
And so let's go forward.
They wouldn't be sticking their neck out this far unless they were really determined to resolve this thing.
So it's funny.
I guess I see why they feel like they have to play tough guy the whole time.
But it seems like the North Koreans are willing to comply just with their schedule of compliance in a different order, not even on a different timeline, but in a different order than what the Americans would prefer.
There's not much to fight about, Tim.
Well, you know, it's strange the way that the U.S. press just presents all this as a huge, you know, it's just a sham.
North Korea is not doing anything to move toward denuclearization.
But, you know, it's just ridiculous to be saying that because the signs are all there.
I mean, you know, the North Korean, through their public events that they've had when Moon Jae-in was just there a couple of weeks ago.
It's very clear that the whole line of the Kim regime has changed, you know, from confrontation with the U.S. to cooperation with the U.S. and also to focusing on economic issues and building, you know, rebuilding their economy.
I mean, that's what they that's what Kim has said publicly.
It was people and they're taking all kinds of steps to do that, you know, projects in all kinds of areas.
And South Korea is very committed to, you know, to helping them do that.
And so, you know, and also, you know, anyone who goes to visit Pyongyang, right now, Americans are not allowed to go to North Korea.
But, you know, there's plenty of other foreigners that go there.
And, you know, all these, you know, bombastic anti-U.S. posters and, you know, propaganda that have been up on streets and buildings, you know, for years have pretty much all been taken down.
Really?
Yeah.
And they've been replaced by, you know, you know, graphics and imagery about, you know, the economy and this kind of thing, you know.
So it's really changed.
Their whole propaganda apparatus and focus has changed.
And, you know, that's, you know, people go there, you know, remark on this because, you know, it's quite striking for those who have been there in the past, you know, because there's been these like really, you know, posters that, you know, showed, you know, missiles blowing up the U.S. Capitol and stuff like that.
And that's all that's all been taken down.
And so clearly, you know, this is a dictatorship and they're there.
They have to, like, show their people they have complete control of their media.
So they're showing their people that, you know, their basic approach has changed.
And now it's, you know, you know, to work with and try to build a peace with the U.S. instead of making war.
And so, you know, that's a fundamental change that's happened.
And I think that, you know, for the South Koreans, I mean, you know, this meeting, this summit they had was, I mean, the most amazing part of it, I thought, was when Moon Jae-in addressed a huge number of people at the May 1st Stadium in Pyongyang.
It was something like 150,000 North Korean citizens were there.
And first time ever a South Korean president had addressed North Korean people.
And, you know, he actually said in his speech, you know, North Korea is moving toward denuclearization.
So, I mean, you know, and all this was broadcast in North Korea.
And also after, you know, during and after the summit, it was all printed in the party newspapers and the state media.
So, you know, their line has definitely, you know, shifted, and they've been making some, you know, changes in their, they're trying to show that they are going to, you know, they will disarm, but they still want, you know, the U.S. to end its hostile policy, which is what they've been saying all along.
So, I'm assuming that some of the discussions that Pompeo had with Kim were fruitful in that area, because otherwise they wouldn't be scheduling another summit.
Right.
Well, and you're right, I'm sorry, I know we got to go, but you're certainly right that that looks, you know, it's not foolproof, the future isn't guaranteed, but it sure looks like that's a pretty big mountain to climb down from and including the symbol of them climbing up the sacred volcano together, Kim and Moon, and all of this, that's another big thing.
And then as you talk about in here, the family reunification room and the new, the kind of reopening the sunshine policy with the industrial zone and all these things, and this is all absolutely music to any peace lover's ears.
So, and it shows a real commitment, not some fake commitment, it shows real commitment on the part of the North Koreans to try to see this through, right?
I agree with you.
I agree, yeah.
All right, listen, I'm so sorry we got to go because this is just great, but let's talk again soon, and thank you for writing all the great stuff that you do, Tim.
Thanks, Scott.
Appreciate it.
All right, you guys, that is the great Tim Shorrock.
He's at The Nation, thenation.com.
Moon and Kim stage an exuberant summit in Pyongyang.
All right, y'all, thanks.
Find me at libertarianinstitute.org, at scotthorton.org, antiwar.com, and reddit.com, slash scotthortonshow.
Oh yeah, and read my book, Fool's Errand, Timed and the War in Afghanistan, at foolserrand.us.
