For Pacifica Radio, January the 9th, 2022.
I'm Scott Horton.
This is Anti-War Radio.
All right, y'all, welcome to the show.
It is Anti-War Radio.
I'm your host, Scott Horton.
I'm editorial director of Antiwar.com and narrator of the new audio book, Enough Already, Time to End the War on Terrorism.
You can find my full interview archive, more than 5,600 of them now, going back to 2003, at scotthorton.org and at youtube.com slash scotthortonshow.
All right, introducing today's guest.
It's Daniel McAdams.
For many years, he was foreign policy advisor to the great non-interventionist Republican Congressman Ron Paul and is now co-host of Ron Paul's Liberty Report, as well as director of the Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity.
It's the great Daniel McAdams.
Welcome to the show, Dan.
How are you doing, sir?
Scott, thanks so much for having me back on your show.
I really appreciate it.
Very happy to have you here.
Tell us what's happening in Kazakhstan.
There's a revolution going on on the other side of the planet.
The North Americans must be involved.
That's my suspicion.
What do you think?
Yeah, I think that's definitely the case.
You know, I mean, I think there, at this point, I'm going to say there are more questions than answers.
And I think anyone that pretends to have all the answers right now or a simple explanation for what's happening either has an agenda or is just wrong.
But there are a lot of questions, but there are a lot of fingers pointing, at least when you look at techniques, when you look at what happened, it looks a lot like an evolving body that began, you know, in the 90s with color revolutions in their infancy, which became progressively more violent, as we saw in Maidan in Syria, etc.
So there does seem to be a lot of similarities, but I guess we could talk about them in the course of this discussion.
Sure.
Well, for the breaking news here, what we have in Kazakhstan apparently is a series of riots in different cities across the country have been going on for, as of the time of this recording, three or four days now, and including arson fires at government buildings.
More than 10 police have been shot and killed, along with, you know, some demonstrators have been killed as well.
And according to the news, this all started when the government removed the subsidies for liquefied natural gas, more than doubling the price for consumers at the pump and so forth in the country is what kicked it all off.
What do you know more than that about how the thing started, Dan?
Well, that's how they often do start.
You know, if you go back and look at the street revolutions in the past, you'll often see protests over increasing prices, and that is a good way to motivate people.
And you also see another pattern, which is that the entrenched leaders immediately back up.
They back off of the price increases and they try to be conciliatory toward the rioters or protesters, whatever you want to call them.
And of course, that doesn't work.
They ramp it up.
And you see the same thing in Kazakhstan a couple of days later.
Their sort of figurehead president, I mean, the real Nazarbayev is the real, you know, power behind the throne.
And he's been that way since 89 said, OK, no, no, no, we're going to cancel it.
We're going to cancel the price increase.
Let's talk.
Let's chat.
They said no way.
And they ramped up the requests.
So this is a pattern you see over and over again.
It's a well-worn narrative.
And I think you're seeing it.
Obviously, you are seeing it again playing out in Kazakhstan.
But the interesting thing, Scott, just one final thing, because you mentioned it.
What's fascinating is the fact that, you know, Kazakhstan is a massive country.
It's the size of three Texas.
You know, it's the size of the entire Western Europe.
This is a massive, unbelievably strategically important country, very rich in minerals between Russia and China.
I mean, it doesn't get more important than that.
You know, geo strategically, geopolitically, however you want to talk about it.
So it's an extremely important country.
And again, as I say, the patterns are very similar.
And yeah, that is an important point.
If people are trying to picture their extremely detailed recollection of the geography of Central Asia, Kazakhstan is the big one out of all of those stands.
And Afghanistan, of course, itself, the small one is the size of Texas.
But then there's Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan and all that, of course, Tajikistan.
But Kazakhstan is the really big one that goes north of the Caspian Sea there, as you say, a major buffer between Russia and China.
So there are a lot of people interested in what's going on there.
I guess the natural question is, what difference does it make to the North Americans?
Dan McAdams, who's running the show in Kazakhstan?
Well, what difference does it make whether Juan Guaido is running Venezuela?
Right.
Oh, wait, I think I know the answer to that.
The empire never sleeps.
And I would say, well, yeah, I mean, Kazakhstan and Venezuela have a lot in common in terms of natural resources.
But remember that the Belt and Road Initiative was announced at Nazarbayev University.
So that's how important it is to this sort of Eurasian idea that will be a power shift away from, you know, Washington and Brussels in terms of political power and resources and natural resources.
So I think that's one reason it's very, very important.
And let's not forget, there are some very powerful American corporations doing business in Kazakhstan, including Chevron and others.
And if anyone is naive enough to think that these companies do not have very strong U.S. government ties, including certain agencies to help them along, then you're a little bit naive, I think.
Yeah.
Now, part of this, of course, obviously, as you're saying, is oil, liquefied natural gas, the rest of this, the Caspian Basin is full of hydrocarbons.
And who's going to get them?
And this has been the controversy since the fall of the Soviet Union, right?
Now we can get in there, make sure that all those soda straws stick in that basin and suck all that oil out other directions than through Russia, right, is the big key here.
And at least in their mind, they absolutely do have interests in Central Asia, extremely important ones, whether we might as well be talking about another planet to most Americans or not.
Yeah.
The thing is, you know, I always shy away from the idea, and I know you do too, Scott, that there's one factor, you know, you know, back in Iraq, they said it was all for the oil.
Well, you know, you have a lot of, you have a lot of things lining up, you know, certainly the neocons would like to prevent the rise of any competitor to the U.S., of course, you know, we are the top dog, the head honcho, we can't have any competitors.
And if you knock out Kazakhstan and put in a U.S. puppet, and in fact, right on cue, the Western media is already talking about an opposition leader for the Kazakhstan, even though there's not really an opposition party.
He's an ex banker called Mukhtar Ablyazov, who lives in France.
He was kicked out of Kazakhstan.
He's accused of fraud and murder, had his bank taken away from him.
So he's, he's pretty ticked off.
He wants his bank back.
And it's kind of funny because simultaneously Reuters, you know, AFP and all of these sort of minor CIA media outlets all had articles featuring him at the same time saying the same thing, the West should tear Kazakhstan away from Russia, was a quote that he had.
So you have a lot of factors that are really pulling together right now.
And let's not forget next week, the talks between the U.S. and Russia begin in Brussels and Geneva.
So this is an awfully, would be an awfully powerful opening to have Russia walking in there or limping in there with Kazakhstan in flames.
So there's just a lot of things.
It's too easy to point your finger to one reason why this is happening.
You know what?
You just made me so suspicious that the White House maybe is, this is not their agenda, but this is more like the CIA deliberately getting Gary Powers shot down to prevent Eisenhower from dealing with Khrushchev or something like that.
You conspiracy theorist.
They wouldn't do that, would they?
Yeah, you never know with these guys, man.
Well, the first the first claim that the U.S. is involved is in Jen Psaki said these are crazy Russian claims that the U.S. is involved in the uprising.
So as soon as you deny it, that's that's a confirmation.
Right.
Yeah.
Well, so let's get back to those talks over Ukraine in a minute.
But I think that's a very important point that you do have always kind of a coalition of interests here.
And there's this extremely important article at Moon of Alabama, the blog by the German analyst Bernard, who talked about and this is very important, you know, people in our line of work always got to keep your eyes on the Rand Corporation, they're essentially owned and subsidized by the U.S. Air Force, but out in Santa Barbara.
So it can be very objective and not too caught up in the swamp there, Dan.
And then they do things like write up reports about here's how we can mess with the Russians, especially their soft underbelly in Central Asia, as they put it.
Right.
Yeah.
No, it's absolutely I mean, it's you know, the problem is the think tank complex and Rand is, I think, the the biggest of them in terms of its its money and influence in some ways.
But you know, as you say, Bernard goes through the whole thing, you know, each measure that you should take.
And then he takes off each one that they've already done so far.
So they do go according to plan.
And again, it's it's kind of a facile analysis.
But certainly there's a roadmap there to follow where the smart people are going when it comes to this.
But, you know, I just add one thing, Scott, too, is that we don't have to point the finger and say this is a CIA operation, because I think that's also too facile.
I think you can talk about MI6.
I think you can certainly talk about the Turks being involved.
I mean, I've I've heard some unconfirmed reports that there's some Arabic being spoken there.
So you start wondering, huh, I wonder if some of these Syrian rebels are being are being sent over there.
And what's interesting is among, I think, the 18 police officers killed, at least as we're speaking, there were reports of a couple of them having their heads cut off, which is not generally the practice in places outside of, you know, places being liberated in the Middle East by by by the U.S.
So a lot of other other strange things happening there.
Yeah.
I heard about those reports.
I mean, I'd sure like to see some confirmation of that.
But remember, the one time, maybe one of the two or three times that the Intercept ever covered what was going on in Ukraine, that their founder, Pierre Omidyar, had been involved in the coup there and in supporting the groups that did the coup back in 2014.
One of the only times they covered that story was one of the most important stories on Ukraine was Syrian terrorists, members of Jabhat al-Nusra and other CIA aligned bin Laden terrorist groups from the Syrian war have traveled to Ukraine to embed with the Nazis fighting against the Russians.
And you can't make this stuff up.
And this is the Obama years for you.
I mean, what are you going to do?
I mean, it would make a great action movie.
Have Jihad will travel.
Yes, seriously.
Our friend George Samueli had had a great tweet where he put up the National Endowment for Democracy support program for 2020.
And you'll see about 20.
And I think Berner talked about this, too.
You'll see about 20 organizations that are being bankrolled by the National Endowment for Democracy.
And it's all the usual suspects defending freedom of peaceful assembly, defending human rights and engaged youth, et cetera, et cetera.
And I think these are the cadres that they kind of keep pumped with money and they keep training them.
A lot of these people, as we know, there's a lot of the Syrians, Ukrainians.
They go to some posh hotel somewhere and they sit in the basement and they get trained in techniques of sabotage, of taking over, of organizing.
Here's what you go after first.
And so we do see a lot of that that's happened with the so-called opposition in Kazakhstan.
So certainly the U.S. is obviously involved in training because it's over there on their website.
They advertise it.
There's a lot of other things, Scott.
And one of the things that struck me about what's happened in Kazakhstan is how quickly it happened and how violently it happened, you know, because we watched Maidan and that was months.
People were in the freezing cold in Kiev in the winter.
That is not a picnic.
This happened virtually overnight and it was very, very well coordinated.
And I don't know if you follow this on Twitter, but ASB News slash military, I think it's a very interesting account to follow, but they make the point that this seems like people that are definitely trained in insurgency tactics, urban warfare tactics, just because of what they did.
Seize airports, disrupt government buildings, demoralize military, occupy government buildings, disrupt banks and on and on.
If you go through what they talk about, these are not some guys who are out there pissed off because it costs a lot more money to drive the car.
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Yeah, exactly.
Right.
And you could have just like we saw in Syria, you have a giant protest of people who say we want regular elections and a rule of law instead of a hereditary dictatorship.
But then over there in the margin are Al-Qaeda guys assassinating cops.
And so, you know, the peaceful protesters are essentially moot at that point.
They're kind of window dressing.
But there's obviously a coordinated scam going on in the background.
And by Al-Qaeda guys, of course, I mean Saudi and CIA and NATO backed mercenaries on the ground.
They were there early, early in the war as William Van Wagenen, better than anyone.
But but many people have done the studies to show just exactly how violent the Syrian uprising was from the very, very beginning.
Day one.
So same thing here.
I think you're totally right about that.
You see, you know, a squad of six or 10 guys really getting work done while there are masses of people protesting in the street.
And it's not just looting.
Right.
You mentioned a bank there.
It's not just looting and robbing banks and things like that.
It's they're shutting down the banking system.
They're shutting down the economy.
They're, you know, trying to wage a real revolution here, it looks like.
And we saw that.
I mean, I don't know if you've seen some.
I've seen some of the video of weapon drops, though.
They rolled up with the Lexus and they opened the trunk, which is a big trunk.
I just saw that this morning.
Yeah.
They swarmed it and took the stuff out.
This is not something spontaneous, you know.
That's a trunk full of rifles, everybody's talking about there.
Yeah.
But there are also some RPGs, I think.
I mean, there are heavy duty stuff.
But yeah, I think, you know, obviously people will protest and it can be exploited.
I also think that all the State Department training of these organizations helps them to manipulate people in the first place to get out there.
You know, they develop networks, they develop networks that can defeat a downed Internet.
It's interesting that all of the violent people in Kazakhstan, they never had their communications disrupted.
And that kind of makes you scratch your head as well.
All right.
Now, here's the thing.
We're recording this on the morning of Friday, the 7th, and the New York Times is reporting that.
Oh, no, it looks like the Russians are going to come out ahead on this one.
Here, the country's been trying to split the difference and maintain some kind of neutrality and peaceful relations, open and friendly relations with America and Russia.
And here, you know, it's between the lines.
An American led attempted putsch here has led to, just like in the case of Syria, only in that case, it took four and a half years.
But in this case, the Russians are coming and they're shutting down.
There's not going to be a color coded revolution here.
Same as when they tried the same thing in Belarus last year.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Belarus was, I think, the turning point, because I think certainly Russia had an eye, had an awakening when it came to the Maidan and they saw what happens if you sit idly by and don't get involved.
And then in Syria, reluctantly, after they were asked to become involved, they were.
And when they came, they came big and they got the job done.
And I think with Belarus was the turning point because Lukashenko, for all of his, you know, footsie that he plays with Pompeo and he loved nothing more than to be accepted in Washington.
He knows at the end of the day or he has learned at the end of the day what it means to play footsie with Washington.
And so he called very early on.
He dropped a dime and said, hey, Putin, I need some help over here.
And I think what we're seeing in Kazakhstan is an even earlier involvement.
I mean, the the deployment of the the the CSTO treaty organization troops was, I think, within 30 minutes.
I mean, they're not playing around with this one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Shades of the Georgia War 2008, too.
Yeah.
No, that's the point.
Yeah.
I'll tell you, Dan, it just seems strange to me, in a way, the level of arrogance here on the part of the Americans.
And I could see why maybe the average guy driving around here in this on the radio would just think this is too crazy to be true, that 30 years after the Cold War, you're telling me that America is still doing everything they can to try to overthrow governments right on Russia's border in places that, you know, most Americans can't even pronounce.
Now, I probably am mispronouncing, you know, on the show this morning that people couldn't find on a map on a thousand dollar bet.
And that as you know, going through from, again, the Moon of Alabama blog where he has some quotes out of this Rand Corporation study, here's what we need to do.
We need to provide more lethal aid to Ukraine.
We need to increase support for the Syrian rebels.
We need to promote regime change in Belarus.
We need to exploit tensions in the South Caucasus mountains.
We need to reduce Russian influence in Central Asia, challenge the Russian presidents in Moldova.
And this is the kind of just it sounds completely crazy.
Why would we be doing that?
It sounds like the kind of thing that, you know, certainly they don't cover on the nightly news that America has an agenda to hem in Russia every way we can, no matter what.
But that's the story here.
That is the story.
But it's also an issue of inertia in a way, because imagine, Scott, if all of a sudden you were ensconced in your own Beltway think tank, the Scott Horton Center, and you were funded by the organizations that fund think tanks, the great thinking minds of the Beltway, and something like this happened or something like this was brewing, they said, Mr. Horton, what do we need to do?
And you said, you know what?
It really isn't any of our business.
I think we need to stay out of it.
You would be gone.
I mean, it's the whole system from the top to the bottom is so hopelessly corrupt.
And that's why I concluded, and I gave a speech in October to the LP Mises Caucus, I concluded that what the only solution is for an end to U.S. foreign policy as such, we essentially need to end the concept of U.S. foreign policy because it is, as Justin Raimondo once wrote, it is war by other means, foreign policy as such.
95% of everything in foreign policy and military has to be absolutely cut out.
The State Department has to be gutted.
50,000 people who have nothing to do all day but screw around with other people who don't want to be messed with.
It needs to end.
That's the only way it can't be reformed.
It's a cancer and it has to end.
Yeah, absolutely right there.
And just, you know, you can hear it from the most authoritative sources that the flea is wagging the dog here, the military industrial complex.
They have captured the U.S. federal government and the American people can't seem to shake loose of them.
But it is up to them.
And if it's up to them, this is what our policy looks like.
Permanent occupation in Asia, in the Middle East, in Europe, constant saber rattling against the only nuclear powers that can destroy the society in a day.
The thing, Scott, that's also interesting is that the people, the cogs in this machine are not frothing at the mouths, you know, warmongering loons.
You know, they're not basically I mean, I know a lot of people that work in the system that believe this and they're they're actually kind of decent people.
They're not bad people.
But they live in such a bubble that, you know, if you mention something like you and I would take for granted to a reasonable, decent person, I have a person in mind.
I'm not going to say that person's name, but it's someone I know who was very high up in diplomacy.
That person, he wouldn't recoil.
He wouldn't say, Scott, you're insane.
You're a jerk.
You hate America.
It just doesn't factor in the things that we talk about just doesn't factor in.
They're not aggressive.
They just don't think the way we think.
Right.
Yeah, I could see it.
In fact, that New York Times story this morning quotes the other Scott Horton, the international human rights lawyer from Columbia, who certainly in the Bush years we got along so great.
He was so good on torture and so many things here.
But boy, is he a Russia hawk.
And he has a quote in there that's reminiscent of Carl Gershman writing in The Washington Post before the Maydan coup in Ukraine back at the end of 2013.
And here the other Scott Horton says something like, yes, if this can happen in Kazakhstan, it could happen in Russia, too.
Who do you think you're threatening here, pal?
Come on.
This is insane.
It goes back to the Ron Paul philosophy.
I mean, if you if you don't have a set of guiding principles, you're floating with the wind.
You know, I mean, if you're not anti war dot com, you know, that's in your brand.
Right.
If you're not that, then you can just shift on a dime, you know.
And by the way, think of the level of panic and alarm and insanity that went on on the liberal left, mostly over Russiagate, which never happened.
But imagine if the Russians actually were bankrolling American right wing NGOs to the tunes of hundreds of millions of dollars and billions of dollars to train right wing cadres across this country or for audience members who lean right.
Imagine if the Chinese were bankrolling and funding and arming and training Antifa or whatever it is that you're scared of.
Think about how we would behave, how we would react if we had these major powers messing around in our nation this way.
And yet the very same people think nothing of doing it to them.
Nothing of doing it to them.
You're absolutely right.
And someone pointed out the same people that were vetting about the insurgency in the U.S. on January 6th are now cheerleading the insurgency in Kazakhstan on January 6th.
You know, the same the same people.
So it's it is when you operate without a guiding principle, without a guiding philosophy.
It's easy.
And you know that.
I don't know what's dumber.
You know, many on the left who believe the Russiagate crap all along or many on the right who should have known better, who still didn't come out and say this is a scam because they also rely on on war and conflict as their sort of central guiding principle in their lives.
Yeah, exactly.
If you listen to any liberal, they'll tell you even the Republican Senate committee report says it's true.
Yep.
Yeah.
Right.
Did you try reading it?
All it says is, well, that's what the CIA told us.
Yeah, exactly.
Because they're the Republicans.
You know, people think that the whole party is just Trump first, no matter what.
But that's just not true.
Certainly it's not true in the U.S. Senate.
Come on.
Yeah.
You know, unfortunately.
All right.
Now, listen, I'm almost out of time here, but I did want to spend just a couple minutes because we mentioned this earlier.
And this is really important, too, for the background.
And you're the best on this.
I hate to put you on the spot, but could you rattle off some color coded revolutions and attempted color coded revolutions that have been going on, not just since the W. Bush years, but even since the Bill Clinton years?
I know you were in Eastern Europe and virtually eyewitness to much of the beginning of this.
Yeah, the early ones, I think, were more Albania in 1996.
That was one of the first ones.
And that was because Berisha at the time, the president, and I had it from his own mouth, did not want to get involved in the U.S. actions in Yugoslavia.
He did not want because it's you know, he's got a lot of neighbors.
He did not want to get involved in the U.S. move to break up and further inflame things in Yugoslavia.
And that's why they turned on him.
You also had Slovakia, I think about a year later, where Mechiar was the strong man, the tough guy.
He was resisting the sale of a huge steel company in Kosice to an American firm for pennies on the dollar.
And I'm oversimplifying it, but that certainly was one of the was one of the factors that made him have to go.
And we talk about the Orange Revolution, you know, three.
But there were there were many, many, many of them there, you know, in Armenia in 98.
I mean, I guess it was when they got Milosevic in 2000, right?
Well, yeah, that's right.
You're right.
That's a big one.
Milosevic in 2000.
You demonize a strong man and then you subsidize an opposition and then you bring out the you know, at first they weren't violent.
I mean, the revolution in in Albania, the overthrow in Albania was was violent.
But violence wasn't a central theme.
It was incidental, I think, more than anything else.
Whereas now the change is that violence and extreme violence is the central theme.
And I think that is the evolution of the color revolutions from the beginning, where it was a bunch of people shouting slogans in the street to, you know, like, let's behead some cops.
Right.
So I think there is an evolution.
They're learning each time.
And they realize now that extreme violence is very, very handy.
Yeah.
Well, you know, the Rose Revolution 2003, I think you told me before that Shevardnadze really was a bad guy and they supported Saakashvili's rise.
By the way, coincidentally, he was a student of the other Scott Horton at Columbia who taught him.
So he went in there and really did in the first few years arrest a lot of criminals and gangsters and try to clean up.
So he did a really good job at first.
But then within five years, he almost got us into a war with Russia.
Yeah, Shevardnadze was a bad guy.
So is Saakashvili.
Anyone the U.S. picks to run your country is guaranteed to be a bad guy.
He doesn't have your best interests at heart.
And both of those two were picked by the U.S.
Oh, I see.
I didn't realize that the Americans had helped put Shevardnadze in charge in Georgia in the first place.
I guess it's not surprising.
I mean, he and Gorbachev, they ended the Cold War.
Right.
And so basically, Shevy put all of his family in charge.
It was enormously corrupt, an enormously corrupt country.
His sons, his family, everyone had a piece of it.
But the thing is, he got he got too full of himself.
He didn't he forgot who he was working for.
Just like Noriega.
Right.
In Panama.
He forgot who he was really working for and he was getting a little long in the tooth.
So here comes Saakashvili, young guy, a lot of energy, a reformer, but still on the payroll, you know.
So I think that's how a lot of that happened.
Now then in 2005, there was the tulip revolution or the lemon revolution in Tajikistan, which I think didn't last.
They got their guy, but then he was overthrown and replaced again fairly soon, if I remember right.
But most importantly, you mentioned there the orange revolution.
So this is on the Americans.
Here's the episode of 60 Minutes.
They never showed yet.
America overthrew the government in Ukraine twice in 10 years.
And after the first time when they got the vote, they voted the other guy back in.
Right.
Yeah.
It was the same guy.
They overthrew twice.
Yeah.
We want him back.
Yeah.
And here we scream about imagined interference in our sacred democracy.
Right.
Let's just do it openly.
Yeah, exactly right.
All right.
Well, listen, I'm so sorry that we're out of time here, but we'll definitely all be keeping our eye on the talks that start on the 10th and keeping our eyes on Antiwar.com and the Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity for the latest on all this.
Thank you so much for your time, Dan.
Thank you, Scott.
All right, you guys.
That's Dan McAdams.
He's the director of the Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity.
That's RonPaulInstitute.org.
And that's it for Antiwar Radio for this morning.
I'm your host, Scott Horton.
Find my full interview archive at ScottHorton.org.
And I'm here every Sunday morning from 830 to 9 on KPFK, 90.7 FM in L.A.
See you next week.
