05/30/14 – Ramzy Baroud – The Scott Horton Show

Hey y'all, Scott here.
First, I want to take a second to thank all the show's listeners, sponsors, and supporters for helping make the show what it is.
I literally couldn't do it without you.
And now I want to tell you about the newest way to help support the show.
Whenever you shop at Amazon.com, stop by ScottHorton.org first.
And just click the Amazon logo on the right side of the page.
That way, the show will get a kickback from Amazon's end of the sale.
It won't cost you an extra cent.
And it's not just books.
Amazon.com sells just about everything in the world, except cars, I think.
So whatever you need, they've got it.
Just click the Amazon logo on the right side of the page at ScottHorton.org or go to ScottHorton.org slash Amazon.
Alright, you guys.
Welcome back to the show.
I'm Scott Horton.
This is my show.
Daniel Ellsberg's ripping it up right now on MSNBC.
Defending Edward Snowden and slamming John Kerry for, you know, pretending that Snowden is some kind of coward rather than a hero just because the State Department exiled him in Russia.
And Ellsberg making the case that Snowden couldn't possibly get a fair trial were he to return to the United States and that he, Ellsberg, should have never been charged in the first place, etc., etc.
And well, click the red button on your DVR because right now we're going to Ramsay Baroud.
And boy, I better pull up this article here.
It's all about the new coup d'etat in Libya.
Haftar leads a coup, a general's odd war on the Muslim Brotherhood.
And in fact, I don't think this is published yet, or maybe it is, but it'll definitely be running this weekend at AntiWar.com.
Welcome back to the show, Ramsay.
How are you doing?
I'm doing well, Scott.
Thanks for having me again.
Well, thank you very much for joining us.
And everybody, check out Ramsay's websites at ramsaybaroud.net.
He's a media consultant and a syndicated columnist.
And he also keeps the website palestinechronicle.com.
And his latest book is My Father Was a Freedom Fighter, Gaza's Untold Story.
Man, that sounds interesting.
I ought to get around to reading that at some point someday if I ever get my hands on it.
Boy, am I behind on books.
Anyway, let's talk about this great article that you've written here about Khalifa Haftar and the coup d'etat in Libya.
As I'm sure you're well aware, nobody else is well aware about this.
And of course, there are news headlines.
Hey, there's a coup and there's a war.
But there's very little being reported out of Libya.
And there are very few experts who really have much background in Libya who can really understand who these characters are and what roles they're playing in context in an informed way where people can really get their head around what's going on here and, of course, the American role.
So, I really appreciate you joining us here.
And so, please go ahead and, I guess, start with who is Khalifa Haftar and what's he up to in Libya these days?
Well, Khalifa Haftar is a Libyan general who was, at one point, a friend of Muammar Gaddafi.
That goes back to the late 60s, when he was a soldier, along with 20 others, led by Muammar Gaddafi, they overthrew the king of Libya at that time, Idris Sinusi.
I'm not going to complicate this with so many names, but the idea is here that Haftar has always been close to power.
And two kinds of powers.
The Libyan power to be in the last 40 years, but also the CIA.
His story is very, very interesting.
And it makes a movie on its own.
This is a man with a lot of ambition.
He had a fallout with Muammar Gaddafi.
He felt betrayed by Gaddafi during the Libya-Chad War.
And, at one point, he decided to work with the Americans.
The Americans, the CIA in particular, negotiated his release after he was caught by the Chadians and he was in a Chadian jail.
And they brought him to Virginia.
He lived in Langley, near the CIA headquarters, and he was there for about 20 years.
During that time, and this is reported, initially it was reported by the New York Times in 1991, the story was almost completely dropped from anybody's memory until the Libyan people decided to overthrow Muammar Gaddafi in 2011.
Suddenly, there's this interesting character who is marching from Washington all the way to Libya, claiming to speak on behalf of the revolution and claiming to be part of the uprising.
And that's where the question marks began about this character, very shady character, and his affiliations with the CIA and with the United States government.
When he came back to Libya, that was in March 2011, some Libyans began thinking, wait a minute, this is not our guy.
This is not a revolutionary type.
First, he was a good, you know, a strong ally of Muammar Gaddafi, but he comes from Washington, D.C.
He worked with the Americans.
He was in the CIA payroll.
You know, we don't want him to be the leader of the military wing of this revolution.
So instead of, and that's what he was asking for.
Basically, they asked him to be man number three in the ladder, on that revolutionary ladder.
He wasn't happy with it.
He accepted the post very hesitantly.
Now, he waited for the right moment, and the right moment is happening right now.
Well, now, hold it right there.
Let me backtrack just a second before we get to right now, because wasn't there an assassination of a military commander, and it was by the, was it the February something brigade, the February 8th brigade or something, and these were, this guy's sock puppets, were the assassins of that military commander back in 2011?
Do I have my story straight there at all?
That's right.
You've got it completely right, because, but that's what, the media would not really talk about what actually happened then, because that assassination did not happen, or did not take place, you know, by like pro-Gaddafi forces.
It happened within the competing military elites within this supposedly rebellious group.
He was, in fact, assassinated by his guards, who were allied with someone else.
We don't, as of yet, fully understand the details of that particular intrigue, but we know, with a degree of certainty, that this had nothing to do with the fight that was going on between Muammar Gaddafi supporters and the opposition.
This is something that actually happened within the opposition camp.
Right, it was the February 17th Martyrs Brigade, that's what I was trying to think of, and it was at least reported, I'm not one to assert this was Ironclad, but I guess it was reported that he had invoked them for his street credibility, that, no, I'm with these guys, the February 17th Martyrs Brigade, as his legitimacy, and then it was another story that said, those were the guys who had assassinated this Abdel Fattah Yunus.
And I was reminded of this because Justin Raimondo wrote about this a couple of articles ago, reminding me of it.
But I don't know.
So, now, since then, he has really been, now, he's a 71-year-old guy.
He comes from a prominent tribe in Libya.
He is, at one point, no one really took him serious.
They thought maybe they are appeasing to the Americans.
They couldn't tell the guy, listen, we don't even want you anywhere in Libya.
Just go back where you came from.
Because the Americans were supportive of the opposition.
Remember, it was John McCain that went to Benghazi as a liberator, and he spoke about freedom and democracy and all of that.
So, they did not really want to get on the ugly side of the U.S. administration.
So, they told the guy, just, you know, you do your thing, but by no means you are going to be in a position of leadership.
Of course, he wasn't happy about it.
What happened in the last three years, the security chaos, the fact that there are hundreds, literally hundreds of militias ruling Libya.
Some of these militias come from major tribes, like the Zintan militia, for example.
They are quite powerful.
They are well-armed.
NATO, when NATO intervened militarily and killed 50,000 people, that's a whole different story.
They brought with them so much weapons that is not only covering Libya, but it actually found its way to Algeria, to Mali, to Egypt, and elsewhere.
As a result, Libyans are very well-armed, and these militias are growing more and more powerful.
But, of course, some Libyans are not really happy with that, and they would rather find themselves in a situation where they have another strong man, another Muammar Gaddafi, perhaps, who could, in fact, deliver a degree of stability and security in the country than to continue to be ruled by these unruly militias.
Last February, Haftar held a meeting with some of his supporters and tribal members.
He thought he had the upper hand.
He went and he made this video.
I'm sorry.
It's a terrible place, but I have to interrupt you.
It's a heartbreak dialed in here, man.
We have to go out and take it.
We'll be right back with Ramzi Baroud in just a second, y'all.
Hey, y'all.
Scott here.
Some stock market investors are making money hand over fist, while others sit on the sidelines afraid of the dangers.
Are you looking for answers?
Before you invest one dollar, I'd like you to take the time to watch this new video from Martin Weiss at MoneyInMarkets.com.
The video names the seven riskiest and four safest major stocks in America.
Learn from the experts and invest wisely.
Go to Crisis16.com.
That's Crisis16.com.
Alright, you guys.
Welcome back.
I'm Scott Horton.
This is my show, The Scott Horton Show.
I'm talking with Ramzi Baroud from Palestine Chronicle and regularly featured on the blog and in article form at AntiWar.com.
Haftar leads a coup.
A general's odd war on the Muslim Brotherhood.
And I just want to drop one footnote before I turn the floor back over to our guest.
And that is, you know, I know how people are.
You hear somebody say, Oh, yeah, this guy's a CIA guy or something.
Well, how do you know that?
Well, this was all very official and admitted back in 2011 and highlighted especially by McClatchy Newspapers that this guy, Haftar, had lived in Virginia about two or three stone throws from CIA headquarters in Langley for 20-something years there.
And so that was the consensus at the time, even if it's not highlighted now.
There was no secret about it.
You didn't have to read it in Covert Action Quarterly or anything.
That's part of the story is, at least this guy has had a very close relationship with the CIA as our guest said for, what, 25 years or so, at least.
But anyway, I'm sorry to interrupt you where I had to there with the break, Ramzi.
But you were talking about, I believe you were somewhere between the last attempted coup and this one.
And this one.
And in the last attempted coup, the name Haftar really kind of caught a lot of people by surprise.
You know, who is this guy?
And what sort of a coup is this declared on a video on YouTube?
The government officials basically laughed it off.
They said, this is ridiculous.
This man doesn't know what he's talking about.
It is nonsense, they said.
But it turned out it wasn't exactly nonsense because he had access to two very important elements.
Number one, he was building an alliance.
An alliance with the former prime minister, Ali Zidan of Libya.
An alliance with the tribes.
An alliance with other militias.
And the second thing, he had command over the Libyan National Army.
Now, this is the trick.
And I tried to highlight this in my article.
He is not in control of the army.
The army we are talking about is actually a militia that he calls the Libyan National Army.
And this is, in fact, a lot of people in the media did not get it right and they made no mention of the fact that we are actually not talking about the central army of Libya which is almost nonexistent.
It is being trained right now by European experts and whatever.
We are really not a functioning army by any stretch of the imagination.
His army, however, is very curious.
And I traced that in my article.
And The Guardian has done a fantastic job last week in a long article explaining the relationship between that army that he is commanding right now and the very Libyan National Army that was, in fact, funded by the CIA.
And all the links are there.
All the information are there.
So this is really not conspiracy theory stuff at all.
This is very legit.
And again, it's The New York Times, The Guardian.
Big newspapers are talking about it.
And interviewing his friends and his former allies within the army and such.
So basically, with access to funds, access to arms, and access to a strong alliance, he is now marching into some cities in Libya.
His forces attacked the parliament using aircraft, helicopters.
The parliamentarians were basically rushing for, you know, hiding from the bomb, you know, to save their own lives.
The militia that is affiliated with him, and there are many, including the powerful Zintan militia, are also springing into action and trying to control as much of the sensitive sites in some areas in Libya as much as possible.
Now they are near Tripoli, and I wouldn't be surprised if in the next few days they do make their move.
Why?
Why they could actually make a move in the next few days?
For one simple reason.
Today, there was a breakup in the Libyan government in Tripoli.
There are two governments holding two different meetings with two different sets of cabinets and ministers.
One is the former prime minister who's saying, I am not leaving that vote in the parliament.
Voting for another prime minister is not legit, and I am staying.
And the new prime minister who's saying, you've got to leave, the parliament decided.
So he is going, and this is what I also highlighted in my article, that this man is very opportunistic.
He knows exactly when to make his move.
So in a time of security chaos and political division in Tripoli, naturally Haftar is gaining momentum, but also is gaining credibility among the disaffected Libyans who are very, very frustrated by all of this.
Well now, so I wonder, and this is just speculation, I'm sorry to ask you to speculate, but jeez, I can't help it.
Do you think this whole thing is a CIA op, or they told them, well you go ahead and try it and we'll see how you do, that kind of thing?
Because they don't seem to really be committed.
They're not sending the Marines to back them up, not at this point anyway.
And it also seems like he's trying very hard to spin, he may even have DC PR firms working for him, spinning all of this as an anti-Al Qaeda, anti-Islamist correction to the pro-Al Qaeda, pro-Islamist war back three years ago.
Right.
And you know what, it will not be very hard to speculate, despite the fact that readers who are familiar with my style, they would know I am very cautious when it comes to speculation.
But in this particular case, I'll make an exception.
Why?
Because the United States government is yet to condemn his two attempted coups, the latest one being a few days ago.
They are yet to take a very strong stand, and the former American ambassador to Libya made a statement where she said that personally I am in support of what Haftar is doing.
But she highlighted the word personally.
So that's number one.
Number two...
Well, wait a minute.
On that point, before you get to the second point there, on that point, that implies to me, and I think this is what you mean, that she's discussed this with the current officials and they put that out there as their little kind of half a trial balloon sort of thing.
Exactly.
That was an authorized thing for her to say even though she's the former, etc.
Absolutely.
And we've seen that happening time and again in other conflicts, where they do what you rightly described, trial balloon, and they would see what would the reaction be and if the reaction is somewhat muted, then they would push a little bit further and so forth.
Okay, I'm sorry.
Now, please go ahead.
Yes.
The Guardian in their interviews, they interviewed one of his top commanders early in the 80s and 90s, and he said, you know what, I think what the Americans are doing, they are really just watching very carefully to see what kind of momentum Haftar is actually able to build before they commit to supporting him.
So really, I think the debate is whether they are already 100% behind him, supporting him but behind closed doors, or they are, you know, kind of winking from afar, but at the same time, they are really ready to commit if he can prove himself.
Now, the issue is really much more complicated than that, Scott, and I'm trying to really kind of like just really just address the highlights of the story here.
But what I found particularly fascinating, and that's why I called it The Odd War on the Muslim Brotherhood, is that the Muslim Brotherhood of Libya is a small group.
They are only part of this fight.
These guys have very little to do with the militias.
They are not part.
Why did Haftar decide all of a sudden and made it so very clear in his statement that this is about Islamic terror and it's about the Muslim Brotherhood that I will cleanse Libya out of the Muslim Brotherhood?
So many people, including myself, I was like, did I miss reading that?
What is he talking about exactly?
These guys are not the dominant political power and they are not part of the fight.
What he has been doing is he's trying to create some sort of an alliance with Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, the now elected president of Egypt.
And he said that very clearly.
His spokesperson yesterday said he is very happy that Sisi is winning the Egyptian election and if the successes of Haftar continue in Libya, he said, and I have the exact quote, if the successes continue in Libya, in fact, Haftar most likely is going to be running for presidency in Libya.
So this is why he is selecting the Muslim and alienating and isolating this factor of the Muslim Brotherhood in particular because he is trying to position himself as another Sisi.
Winking to the Americans and to the Europeans, I am Libya's strongman, support me and I have a plan that is going to make you happy.
Because I am against the terrorists of Libya.
Now another and final point I'm going to say about this is that he is also making statements against Ansar al-Sharia.
It's a Libyan militant group that was accused of the attack on the American embassy in Benghazi that killed the American ambassador and three others.
You know what, I'm so sorry we're so short on time but we had a pretty open board today is there any way I could keep you one more segment Ramsey?
Like ten minutes perhaps.
Well, it's going to be a six minute break so I guess we'll have to catch up later but thank you so much for your time today, I appreciate it.
My pleasure Scott.
Hey y'all, Scott Horton here for WallStreetWindow.com Mike Swanson knows his stuff he made a killing running his own hedge fund and always gets out of the stock market before the government generated bubbles pop which is, by the way, what he's doing right now selling all his stocks and betting on gold and commodities sign up at WallStreetWindow.com and get real-time updates from Mike on all his market moves it's hard to know how to protect your savings and earn a good return in an economy like this Mike Swanson can help follow along on paper and see for yourself WallStreetWindow.com Oh, John Kerry's Mideast peace talks have gone nowhere Hey y'all, Scott Horton here for the Council for the National Interest at CouncilForTheNationalInterest.org U.S. military and financial support for Israel's permanent occupations of the West Bank and Gaza Strip is immoral and it threatens national security by helping generate terrorist attacks against our country and face it, it's bad for Israel too without our unlimited support they would have much more incentive to reach a lasting peace with their neighbors it's past time for us to make our government stop making matters worse help support CNI at CouncilForTheNationalInterest.org Hey y'all, Scott Horton here for the Future of Freedom the monthly journal of the Future of Freedom Foundation edited by libertarian purist Sheldon Richman the Future of Freedom brings you the best of our movement featuring articles by Richman, Jacob Hornberger, James Bovard and many more the Future of Freedom stands for peace and liberty and against our criminal world empire and leviathan state subscribe today, it's just $25 per year for the back pocket size print edition $15 per year to read it online that's theFutureOfFreedom at FFF.org slash subscribe peace and freedom, thank you the military industrial complex the disastrous rise of misplaced power Hey y'all, Scott Horton here it's a great story to read this book The War State by Michael Swanson America's always gone to war a lot though in older times it would disarm for a bit between each one but in World War II the U.S. built a military and intelligence apparatus so large it ended up reducing the former constitutional government to an almost ceremonial role and converting our economy into an engine of destruction in The War State, Michael Swanson does a great job telling the sordid history of the rise of this national security state relying on important first-hand source material like the writing for you and me find out how Presidents Truman, Eisenhower, and Kennedy all alternately empowered and fought to control this imperial beast and how the USA has gotten to where it is today corrupt, bankrupt, soaked in blood despised by the world The War State by Michael Swanson available at Amazon.com and at Audible.com or just click the logo in the right-hand margin at ScottHorton.org we should take nothing for granted www.scotthorton.com