05/14/14 – Nebojsa Malic – The Scott Horton Show

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All right, you guys, welcome back to the show here.
I'm Scott Horton.
This is my show, The Scott Horton Show.
And our next guest today is Nebojsa Malic.
I think I always said it wrong, but now I think it's supposed to have a CH sound at the end.
Yugoslavia's lessons learned, not by America, by Russia, is his latest article at antiwar.com.
Welcome back to the show.
How are you doing?
Thanks, Scott.
I'm doing well.
Thanks for having me.
Very happy to have you back on the show.
It's been way too long.
And did I finally say your name correctly?
Yes, you did.
Okay, good, because I saw the guy on RT say it, and I thought, oh, you know, I've been saying it wrong.
They sometimes get it wrong, which is kind of funny.
These things happen all the time on this show.
So, yeah, let's talk about this piece or, well, the events on the ground going on right now in Ukraine and what it means to the Russians as well as to the Americans.
Very important.
I guess, first of all, could you give us an update?
I saw that on CNN this morning they had at least a crawl saying that they had announced that they were going to have some kind of talks between I'm not sure which sides of the conflict, which all sides were to participate, but apparently they were going to try to have some kind of talks to see if they could start winding down the tension rather than continue ratcheting it up.
Have you heard anything about that?
I have.
My impression is that any sort of talks now are going to be too little too late.
I'm getting really strong flashbacks to about 20 years ago and the events in Yugoslavia back then when it was a very similar set of things.
First of all, the then European Union, which was still the European community, basically told the government of Yugoslavia at the time, don't you dare use force to keep the country together, which, you know, from a libertarian standpoint, yeah, it makes sense.
And they sent the same message to President Yanukovych back in November and December and January.
And now that this coup government has taken over in Kiev, which was never elected by anybody, has zero legitimacy except in Washington and Brussels, now the message is use force to keep the country together because, again, it doesn't matter what is done but who is doing it at home.
And so back in the 90s when Croatia seceded from Yugoslavia and declared independence and was recognized by Germany, the government in Croatia was given a green light to use force against its population that refused to recognize this particular state of affairs and mentioned that, okay, we keep keeping in mind the events of the 1940s and this is pertinent to the situation in Ukraine as well, because, again, the current government in Kiev is directly the heir of people who were allied with Hitler in the 1940s.
The people in Croatia that objected to this declaration of independence and their rights being trampled were declared terrorists and separatists and so on and so forth, and the Croatians sent the police and the military against them.
Now in 1991 this attack failed.
In 1995, with the support of the United States government, military trainers, all sorts of imported weaponry, propaganda, and NATO air support, it succeeded.
And I'm guessing that the strategy that's being implemented in Ukraine right now by the same people who were in charge of these things in the 90s, the Clintonites who are back in the office, that's the strategy they're trying to follow.
So declare these people in the east and south of Ukraine terrorists and separatists and, you know, Russian aggressors and this and that, and then have them obliterated through the anti-terrorist, quote-unquote, actions.
The problem is, again, this happened back in the 90s in Croatia.
Most of the American public doesn't remember this anymore.
The Russians remember.
They know exactly what the plan is and they know exactly how to counter it.
And they have been countering it for weeks.
And Moscow didn't do anything of any of these expected things and predicted things in the American media or the foreign policy establishment's regular column spaces.
Everybody was saying, well, the Russians will surely roll in with the tanks.
They haven't.
And they continually keep stumping the Washington foreign policy establishment because they're refusing to play by the script.
They have their own script.
And what their script is, that's the hard part to figure out.
But they're definitely not following along the plan, the scenario, the screenplay that is written in Washington.
This is what I try to point out in the article, that they have been studying the lessons of Yugoslavia, where the American public and the U.S. foreign policy establishment that actually is responsible for a lot of the things that happened in Yugoslavia in the 90s, they've never learned anything from it.
You make the point in the article about what he understands about the U.S. narrative, that the American people are being told that, oh, Russia's rising again, and history began on February, I don't know, 23rd or 24th, maybe, this kind of thing.
So he knows that, you know, he's looking at it from the American foreign policy establishment point of view and the American media, what the American people are being told point of view.
And then I think, like you're saying, break him from their script every time that he can.
I even saw some desperate warmonger types on Twitter when he called for the eastern part of the country to delay their vote on independence, that they said, oh, here we go.
Like, well, what?
How does that play into your narrative, that he's trying to hurry it up and break off the east or whatever?
Well, their narrative keeps shifting, that's the point.
Their narrative keeps shifting because, again, it doesn't matter what he is or isn't doing.
He is doing it, and therefore it must be evil.
In this particular wrongheadedness, this is the whom logic that Lenin articulated all that many years ago, and that supposedly the United States spent the entire Cold War fighting against, and here we are championing it around the world.
That's the biggest absurdity of everything today.
Well, look, I mean, it makes perfect sense why, I don't know if there's such a thing as the average Ukrainian or whatever, that might have a lot of different definitions, but there's plenty of reason why Ukrainians might resent Russia with the history of the Soviet Union there.
I mean, hell, the reason so many people there speak Russian and not Ukrainian is because the communists did their best to eradicate the Ukrainian language, although it didn't really work, and that doesn't make the Nazis liberators or anything, but it does mean that the Ukrainians have plenty of good reason to have hard feelings against the Russians and to be very afraid of a Russian-dominated future if they're to have one, but still all that is just all the more reason to blame the American empire for pushing things this far, as Ray McGovern calls it, one regime changed too many.
They got away with it to a degree back in 2004, although the Russians worked to counter the Orange Revolution, and hell, the whole thing just fell apart anyway, but this time it seems like Putin was concerned that he was actually really going to lose his base on the Crimean Peninsula, and no, sorry.
So you're going to move those pieces, I'm going to move these, and there's got to be a line here somewhere, and he drew it.
Well, I like to try to explain it to my American readers, and people talk to me about this, in terms of something like this.
Imagine that some external power, it doesn't matter which one, it really doesn't matter which one, has staged a revolution in Mexico and taken over Mexico.
What would be Washington's reaction?
Well, let's be specific.
If Russians did that, and overthrew the government in Mexico, we would go to war against Russia, absolutely.
Let's remove the personal feelings from this and then talk about abstractions.
Yes, you could go to war in a second, in a heartbeat.
In fact, use Canada, it's an even better example.
What would you do if they tried to overthrow Canada, and then they hired a bunch of Nazis to start up a civil war against anyone who resisted their pushed government?
Precisely, and people don't realize, a lot of my American readers aren't aware, because all the history they've learned was from the movies, in which the Nazis were defeated by Private Ryan and his merry pals, and certainly there was a lot of bravery and a lot of effort, and a lot of credit to go to these brave men.
But when you look at the death tolls of World War II, and you see that there were 185,000 Americans who died in Europe, and 27 million Soviets, you start to realize that maybe, perhaps, those nine months of fighting in 1944-45 weren't quite equal to the four years that the Soviets had to deal with, and that the bulk of the war effort actually took place on the Eastern Front.
But because we didn't see it in the movies, it didn't happen.
And so when you talk to Americans about Nazis, to call somebody a Nazi seems to be one of those throwaway insults people reach for when they're losing an argument.
To Russians, Nazis are very real people.
Yeah, it's like the Black Flag or something.
Right, I mean, these were very real people who came in, invaded their country, murdered, genocidally, 20-plus million of their people, and very nearly pulled it off.
And were ultimately defeated by Soviet, all sorts of, not just ethnic Russians, but everybody who was culturally Russian in the Soviet Union, who basically drove to Berlin and put an end to this.
And so to have these people rise up again and be called Democrats by the Europeans, who seem to be hell-bent on amnestying Nazis left and right, especially in the former Soviet Union.
The republics, now independent states.
Yeah, that's an insult to injury.
I mean, again, there's really no credible comparison to it.
The United States hasn't had any foreign power systematically assaulting it for 70-plus years, or besieging it for the next 20, after the war formally ended.
Russians have.
They've had this Western hostility year in, year out, even when they try to be appeasing and quiet and cooperative, and President Putin still is being entirely too cooperative towards the West, allowing supplies through Russian territory to the American troops in Afghanistan, and so on and so forth.
Yeah, that may be the Americans too clever by half.
They're taking advantage to his benefit.
But we've got to take this break.
We'll be right back with Nibosha Malik from antiwar.com right after this.
Malik.
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All right, you guys, welcome back to the show.
I'm Scott Horton.
I'm talking with Nibosha Malik from antiwar.com.
And we're talking about Ukraine and Russia.
And I've always thought since the very beginning of the war on terrorism that Putin was being very nice to the Americans and saying you can use our routes and our bases and whatever.
We don't mind if you go and build a base in Kyrgyzstan, whatever you need to do to fight the terror war in Afghanistan.
I always thought that was really nice, and I also thought that Putin must have at least been playing it both ways, if not been, you know, really just being sneaky, because he must have known just as well as bin Laden who laid that trap that Afghanistan is where empires go to die, you know, like the Soviet Union that he used to serve in the KGB of during the Afghan war.
And so he must have known that like, oh, you guys want to invade Afghanistan, huh?
Yeah, you just go right ahead.
Although at the same time he really was giving the U.S. Empire, the American military, you know, direct access to Central Asia.
So it wasn't nothing.
He was being nice and I think playing us for fools at the same damn time.
I don't know, but he at least after September 11th, they say he was the first president on earth to call George W. Bush and say at your service, let's be friends, let's take the opportunity of this terrible crisis to, you know, figure out how we can work together.
And the Americans started jamming their thumbs in his eye, starting just a couple of months later with the withdrawal from the anti-ballistic missile treaty, December of 2001 there, before, you know, the war on terror really even got going.
Absolutely.
The impression that I got at the time, and I'm sure the impression that people in Russia got very quickly thereafter, was that essentially the American establishment, and I'd really, really like to use that phrase much better because ordinary Americans have very little to do with any of this, the U.S. foreign policy establishment basically treated this niceness as weakness.
They interpreted it as, well, the Russians will obey because they have no other choice.
Honestly, some days I get the feeling that for the policymakers in Washington, they are the only human beings on earth with agency.
Not even the American people have agency, let alone anybody else in the world.
You know, everybody else in the world is a thing to be manipulated, and you don't need me to explain how horribly wrong this is as an outlook.
But, yeah, some days I really get the feeling that these people treat the world as a giant simulation computer game in which they click and things happen.
And obviously things don't happen that way and never happen that way and never will happen that way.
Even though, I mean, just to look, you could be anyone in the world and just look at Boris Yeltsin and look at Vladimir Putin and know that whatever exactly his game may be, he means business.
He's not some pushover idiot.
Absolutely.
And to whatever degree he has power, he's going to be very familiar with just how much power he has and how he can get away with using it.
And he's not the kind of person that you can take advantage of because he's so drunk all the time, etc.
Right.
I mean, the Yeltsin regime was essentially a puppet government run from the U.S.
There's a mountain of evidence.
They even made a movie about how American consultants got Yeltsin reelected on a fraud in 1996.
This is one of those, we're not hiding it, we're proud of it.
And that's seemingly okay in this country.
If somebody tried to do the same thing with U.S. elections, they'd end up in jail, or at least I hope they would anyway.
You know, the numbers don't lie.
The reason Putin has an almost plebiscitary support of the Russian people with his approval ratings in the high 80s last time I checked is that under Yeltsin, the Russian life expectancy was plummeting.
There was rampant alcoholism and drug use and prostitution and crime, essentially a total collapse of social order.
Under Putin, all of these trends have been reversed.
Not only their GDP and macroeconomical, statistical indicators, but real life, quality of life for ordinary people everywhere has gone dramatically for the better.
Well, a lot of that has to do with the terror war driving the price of oil up by 3 or 4 times as well.
Somewhat, but also the whole notion of shutting down the oligarchs that had been plundering the country mercilessly throughout the Yeltsin era.
Essentially, he stopped the whole spread destruction that one Western journalist actually called the rape of Russia.
He put an end to it, and all the proceeds from economic activity have actually gone to people who actually earned them, which is what libertarians ought to support, the whole notion of people keeping what they earn.
Well, and they still have oligarchs, but at least they produce things.
They don't just liquidate their enterprises and flee to Israel or America or Britain.
Right.
I mean, the oligarchs were given a choice, which was one of the ways that this could work at the time.
Probably the best of the ways it could work at the time is basically either stay out of politics and you may be allowed to keep your plunder, or go into politics and you will lose everything and you'll end up in jail, or pay back some of your assets, so to speak, euphemistically, into the country and we can work together.
And there's been people who chose any of the above options.
Khodorkovsky ended up saying, no, screw you, Americans are backing me, I'll see you gone, and then he ended up in jail on absolutely proper charges of tax evasion and corruption and whatnot.
Berezovsky ended up in exile, taking his money and ended up spending it all in England and ended up suiciding completely broke and broken.
So really, honestly, you have these people who were used and then discarded by the American foreign policy establishment, and then you had the people who ended up working with Putin and they seem to be progressing perfectly fine.
Same kind of thing in Ukraine, really.
Yes, President Yanukovych was corrupt.
He wasn't the only one.
That country has been run by oligarchs for the past 20-some years, unlike Russia.
And those oligarchs pretty much ran the country into the ground.
When the Russians offered them $15 billion in credit to Europeans, they're like, oh, well, the Russians are trying to buy you.
Yeah, well, at least they're trying.
What are you guys offering?
You're offering $15 million and in return you're demanding that Ukrainians completely bankrupt what's left of their country and essentially serve as your wage slaves and source of cheap labor.
And they openly admitted this.
They said, if we want to keep paying out our pensions, we need the Ukrainians to work for us.
I'm paraphrasing, but it's essentially the gist of the argument that I could read in British and European press throughout January and February.
It's one of those, the EU needs to annex Ukraine because it needs to expand or die.
It's the logic of welfare state.
Okay, well, all right.
On one hand, you have people who want to enslave you in exchange for some trinkets and some bearded ladies at Eurovision song contests.
And on the other hand, you have people who are willing to subsidize your energy and give you a very, very generous loan.
It is a loan, but it's a very generous one.
And don't insist on you changing your political structure and are willing to let you decide what form of government you're going to take.
Who's the villain here?
It's very easy to figure out, but that's why you have all this propaganda trying to muddle it up.
Right.
I think people may be familiar with, because this one, it was kind of soundbite-able enough for TV that Yatsenik had said that he meant to lead.
He's the new sock puppet prime minister there.
He meant to lead a suicidal government, he called it, the reforms that he was going to implement.
In other words, the turning over of all the public resources to the IMF was going to be so drastic that surely all the people of Ukraine would hate him and would never let him have power again.
But he was such a great guy that he was going to do it anyway.
Well, whether he is such a great guy or not, normally wouldn't these things be decided at an election rather than a phone call from a U.S. Deputy Secretary of State to an ambassador?
Because if you recall that particular tape, we had a Deputy Secretary of State talking to the ambassador saying, oh, I want this one, I don't want this one, this one should stay out, this one should go in.
Shouldn't the people of Ukraine have their say about that, about who runs their country?
And also, speaking of these IMF reforms, every time some, and this applies to even those infomercials late at night when people tell you, oh, I've made millions of dollars doing this.
Well, if you made millions of dollars doing that, what are you doing selling infomercials late at night?
If it's working so great for you, why don't you practice it?
Same thing about these IMF and World Bank reforms.
If they're so fantastic for everybody in the world, why aren't they practiced in the West?
Why aren't they being implemented in Germany or the U.S.?
Hey, Nibosha, do me a favor and do one more segment on the show here.
Sure.
All right, hang tight through this break.
We'll be right back, everybody, with Nibosha Samalich from Antiwar.com.
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All right, y'all, welcome back to the show.
It's my show, the Scott Horton Show, talking with Nibosha Samalich from Antiwar.com.
Should have been talking to him this whole time, man.
I don't know what the hell's the matter with me.
I'm lazy.
So this is not from the onion, I swear to you.
This is multiple sources all over the place.
I don't think anybody's denying it.
It's on their website.
That's a real thing.
Maybe I should have done better checking, but I'm pretty sure that this is a thing.
That the vice president's son is now on the board of directors of the largest gas company in Ukraine.
Speaking of Oligarchs.
I saw that in the Wall Street Journal, so I'm not sure if it's true or not.
Oh, there you go.
Well, that might be a reason not to believe in it.
Actually, their reporting site is usually pretty good.
Boy, and does he ever look like a psycho in his picture, too.
They should have had him take another couple of pictures before they went putting this out as his headshot.
Boy, does he seek to reassure you about what a good guy he is.
Written all over his face like a used car salesman.
I almost can't believe it.
I have to start speculating about the conversation in the Biden household about this.
Do you think anybody's going to notice?
Yeah, sure, but what are they going to do about it?
Nothing, right?
And that kind of thing.
Or else, how could this happen?
I mean, in what universe am I living with the vice president's son when they're still really in the middle of their big sloppy coup d'etat here?
I mean, they've only consolidated half the country, if that.
And they're already moving the vice president's son in to run the oil company.
Well, I'm really just kind of curious as to what sort of oil company he means to run without the actual oil, because that oil seems to be in possession of the Russians.
See, that's what I was thinking.
What's he going to do?
Tell him that the pipeline should go this way, not that way?
Yeah, about that.
It's not Pipeline Tycoon.
Again, life is not a video game.
I heard of that, too.
My first thought was, yeah, that's not going to look suspicious, ever.
I don't know what they're thinking.
Maybe all these Americans are KGB, and this whole thing is a plot to transfer a bunch of tax money to Russia by way of Ukraine.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that this is all evil Vladimir Putin's mega-plot, and he really controls the US government.
It's high up on the list of theories.
It seems like everything they do ends up redounding to his benefit.
Just trying to keep it simple, that's all.
Well, when your enemies seem to be the perfect fusion of arrogance and stupidity, one has to be really incompetent not to take advantage of this.
And honestly, if half the stories that are told about the man are true, he is everything but incompetent.
I don't know.
I really am getting a message of just unbelievable arrogance, unbelievable stupidity, and complete lack of understanding of how the world actually works, coming from Washington.
Throughout this crisis, time and again, I was thinking, okay, if they really wanted to stop this thing, they can do this right here, right now.
Why are they doing this?
And every time, they keep escalating the crisis.
And the conclusion that he's staring me in the face, no matter how uncomfortable, is that these people really want to provoke World War III.
I don't know why.
Maybe they think they can win it.
Maybe.
I honestly don't know.
I'm wondering if there's a pilot on board the plane here who's actually in charge of this policy.
Is it the President?
Is it the State Department?
Is it somebody within the State Department?
Is it somebody not in the State Department at all, but at the Council of Foreign Relations?
It's very difficult to tell, because the stupid just keeps getting worse.
Yeah.
Well, speaking of the Council of Foreign Relations, I actually have a clip here somewhere, don't I?
Yeah, well, it's way too long to play, but the editor of Foreign Affairs went on the Colbert Show and explained that, yeah, while we have...
And this was on February the 23rd.
While we had Putin looking the other way at the Olympics, we've run off with this country.
He, he, he.
And this kind of thing.
And, no, he was on a comedy show, but basically that was the, the depth of, of the planning here.
Like you said, it doesn't, the stupid is, is really, it's the short-term thinking here, right?
You know, what would play well this week.
It's the incentive structure, the economics of, of government office holding that, you know, I can't let Kerry look like a tougher guy than me this week.
So I got to do this.
I got to do that.
And long-term consequences for the country and the planet be damned.
So they probably don't want World War III, but they're just not even thinking that far ahead.
Like, oh, come on, that's not going to happen.
So, you know, they probably just dismiss it if it came up.
I would, I would say, I would try to sound by characterizes this cartoon villainy posing as policy.
Yeah, it's pretty bad.
Here's where we get into the cartoon villainy for real is the legacy of these Nazis.
And I think, again, like you said, people have, in America, they never teach us the Eastern European history of World War II.
We learn about the Pacific and we learn about D-Day and that kind of thing.
Italy, we don't learn about, you know, what happened over there and that kind of thing.
But now, you know, this is a very real thing in their history and this whole time.
And, of course, I guess I could see how under Soviet domination, the most extreme right wing types would be the resistance.
And in fact, there was a great interview with an author in the nation.
I think it's Stephen Cohen in the nation interviewing the author of a book about how I don't know if this was exactly part of the stay behind programs and Gladio and all that kind of thing.
But, you know, something on the order of that.
The American CIA had been in touch with these Nazis all through the Cold War era.
Right, I did see the report in the nation.
And they're still proud Nazis with proud SS symbols and all these things that Americans couldn't conceive of still being real.
And these guys are walking around with 88s, which stands for Heil Hitler, you know.
Yeah, no, they're the real thing.
I mean, they have torchlight parades.
They engage in casual anti-Semitism.
All these really reprehensible Nazi things that, you know, and they get tossed out as Russian propaganda.
But they're very real.
This is not Russian propaganda.
You couldn't make this stuff up.
The problem I have with a lot of these things on top of these people being Nazis is that, for example, Poland, which is basically a colony of the U.S. when it comes to foreign policy and anti-Russian sentiment, they seem to be backing this current regime even though the Nazis in World War II, the Ukrainian Nazis in World War II killed a whole bunch of Poles in what is today western Ukraine.
This is one of those things of acting against your own national interests that baffles me.
Then you have the situation, as you mentioned, there are actually documents showing how all these survivors of the SS and various Ukrainian Nazis that managed to escape to the West in 1945 rather than being turned over to Stalin like a lot of Russian prisoners of war, they were evacuated by the British government into the U.K. and Canada.
I guess quite a few of them ended up in the U.S. later because essentially the Catholic Church said, these are good Catholics and great anti-communists, please protect them.
Not to point any specific fingers at specific people and bring up any other debates here and then go off topic.
But obviously, yes, this was part and parcel of the whole post-war, pre-Cold War preparation, including Gladio.
So let's see whether we can use these Nazis, the whole policy turned on its head.
Because again, and I can somewhat understand this, both the British and the Americans, the Nazis were something that was happening to other people.
Their own home soil never really got invaded in a meaningful way, whereas the French, the Poles, the Russians, Yugoslavs, they all had very visceral experiences with the Nazis themselves very directly.
And so, yeah, the whole notion of Nazi, neo-Nazis and traditional Nazis even, serving as allies of the United States and NATO in Europe today, ought to give anybody indigestion.
And the fact that it's so easily accepted by the foreign policy establishment and the media really ought to tell you something.
Yeah, I mean, Dan McAdams, and a few people have written about this, but Dan had this write-up, and I guess this is in your article too, but anyway, there's so many quotes of the American media covering the burning, basically the Waco massacre of Odessa there, and covering it, all of them, and so obviously, so badly like they were in a real hurry, Nebojsa, talking about just switching to passive voice, all of a sudden a fire broke out, or this kind of talk, where, you know, no, wait a minute, some Nazis burned some non-Nazis, that was what was going on there, there was a fight and the Nazis started a fire and murdered a bunch of people, so these fires, you know, and then the fire killed the people, no, you mean they were murdered by fire by the people who murdered them, right?
That's what you're trying to say, and that's the AP and NBC and any, I don't know if TV mentioned it, but this is at least their online articles and all of that, all of them refused to just say, and the Nazis, who support the same regime that America supports in Kiev, were the ones who murdered them all.
Well, of course, it's again the who-whom-ism, it's not what is done, it's who did it to whom, if it's quote-unquote our people doing it to quote-unquote their people, then it must be okay.
I saw the same thing, and I wrote about the same thing 10 years ago in Kosovo, when the ethnic Albanians, some 50,000 of them, launched a three-day, four-day pogrom of the ethnic Serbs, and the Western press was all, oh, these are clashes, there is ethnic fighting, and everything that was being done to the Serbs was reported in passive voice, and everything that happened to the Albanians was reported in active voice, and you can just tell, I mean, if the careful newsreader can really tell what's the truth, by just observing the way it's being reported.
So it's essentially a script, and they plug in the names, or don't, as the case may be, in effort to conduct what they call perception management.
And it's disgusting, and it's nauseating, and yet it keeps happening.
Yeah, and they can just switch which country they want to go to war with, week by week by week, we're down in sub-Saharan Africa now, Eastern Europe, I don't know what you're talking about.
We're ready on a whole new crusade here.
Right, or whatever they want.
Oh, man, I'm sorry, we're out of time now.
Thank you very much for your time, Nebojsa, it's great to have you back on the show.
Thanks, Scott, take care.
All right, that's Nebojsa Malik, everybody, he's at antiwar.com, and yeah, there's a malware thing today, but it'll be fixed soon, so anywhere.
Check him out there in the columnist section at antiwar.com.
Hey, y'all, Scott Horton here for WallStreetWindow.com.
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